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Inconsistent color descriptions

tjkswift

Rough_Rock
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Jul 15, 2014
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I'm new to the board and was checking out listings of previously owned rings by PS'ers. Found a 3.08 antique cushion ad and have a couple of questions about it.

It's currently owned by han001 and it listed for sale through Jewels by Grace. When han001 posted her ad that the ring was for sale, she describes the ring as being N/O in color and was appraised by David Atlas. She posts a link to the previous owner, another PS'er, tiger006, who owned the ring before her. Tiger006 posts that she bought the ring from Single Stone and says the diamond is an M in color. I thought that was a bit weird, but here's the kicker, when I went out to the Jewels by Grace website, in that ad, the diamond is listed as being an L color with an AGS cert. I don't believe either of the 2 owners mentioned anything about the diamond having an AGS certification, so I'm assuming that this is a recent grading on the diamond, of which, I've asked Grace for confirmation on that.

What are your thoughts on this inconsistency? TIA
 

arkieb1

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AGS is sometimes less accurate in colour grading (usually by one sometimes if you are unlucky by two colours) so it could be a AGS graded L and a GIA graded M or N. I also wonder if some of the fluorescence is masking the "real" colour making it appear whiter in some lighting situations and therefore also making it more difficult for the owners to accurately describe the true base colour of the stone.

I looked at the description and I would add some Ls are very white facing most of the colour seems to disappear most of the time, this stone is going to be a chameleon so white to vintage lace in some lighting and as the description reads quite tinted and buttery yellow in other lighting.
 

Mayk

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Date on the lab report is June 30, 2014. Wondering if previous assessments of color were done while it was set. Clearly Grace sent it unset to AGS to be graded. I think it's easier to tell color unset since they are graded face down for color. Picture from previous PS post. I believe the far left is a "D". Someone will correct if I'm mistaken.

_20806.jpg
 

Lorelei

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tjkswift|1406606930|3722325 said:
I'm new to the board and was checking out listings of previously owned rings by PS'ers. Found a 3.08 antique cushion ad and have a couple of questions about it.

It's currently owned by han001 and it listed for sale through Jewels by Grace. When han001 posted her ad that the ring was for sale, she describes the ring as being N/O in color and was appraised by David Atlas. She posts a link to the previous owner, another PS'er, tiger006, who owned the ring before her. Tiger006 posts that she bought the ring from Single Stone and says the diamond is an M in color. I thought that was a bit weird, but here's the kicker, when I went out to the Jewels by Grace website, in that ad, the diamond is listed as being an L color with an AGS cert. I don't believe either of the 2 owners mentioned anything about the diamond having an AGS certification, so I'm assuming that this is a recent grading on the diamond, of which, I've asked Grace for confirmation on that.

What are your thoughts on this inconsistency? TIA

Hi TK,

This isn't that unusual, colour grading is subjective and some variance in opinion can happen, even between a few colour grades, especially depending on if the stone is mounted or unmounted, this can make a difference too. Dave and SS are well respected in their fields, it would be interesting to know if the stone has been sent to AGS for a report, maybe Grace decided to get this done as she felt it worthwhile. If the price is right and the stone is everything you want then that's the main thing, you could of course get the stone reappraised with an appraiser of your choice and make the sale final on a favourable report concerning the colour grade and price.
 

tjkswift

Rough_Rock
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Messages
58
Thanks for the replies.

Mayk, have you reviewed the AGS report on this diamond, or is it posted somewhere that you know the date it was graded? I've sent an email to Grace asking to confirm the date it was graded as well.
 

Mayk

Ideal_Rock
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When you pull up the listing on her site there is a link to the certificate. Once you launch that link in the AGS information there is another link that is to open the actual certificate. The date is at the top center. Small print.
 

WinkHPD

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arkieb1|1406608653|3722334 said:
AGS is sometimes less accurate in colour grading (usually by one sometimes if you are unlucky by two colours) so it could be a AGS graded L and a GIA graded M or N. I also wonder if some of the fluorescence is masking the "real" colour making it appear whiter in some lighting situations and therefore also making it more difficult for the owners to accurately describe the true base colour of the stone.

I looked at the description and I would add some Ls are very white facing most of the colour seems to disappear most of the time, this stone is going to be a chameleon so white to vintage lace in some lighting and as the description reads quite tinted and buttery yellow in other lighting.

I would refer you to this excellent post by John Pollard addressing this issue and the reason why it is so often stated as you stated it, when in fact AGS is actually more consistent than the current GIA reports. It is easy and popular for members in the trade to bring question and doubt to AGS reports. It is also wrong.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017[/URL]

Wink
 

30yearsofdiamonds

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Far left stone is an E, there is no "D" master stone. Anything better then the E is a D.
 

Mayk

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30yearsofdiamonds|1406640071|3722490 said:
Far left stone is an E, there is no "D" master stone. Anything better then the E is a D.


Thank you. I thought I might be wrong.
 

arkieb1

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Wink|1406639864|3722488 said:
arkieb1|1406608653|3722334 said:
AGS is sometimes less accurate in colour grading (usually by one sometimes if you are unlucky by two colours) so it could be a AGS graded L and a GIA graded M or N. I also wonder if some of the fluorescence is masking the "real" colour making it appear whiter in some lighting situations and therefore also making it more difficult for the owners to accurately describe the true base colour of the stone.

I looked at the description and I would add some Ls are very white facing most of the colour seems to disappear most of the time, this stone is going to be a chameleon so white to vintage lace in some lighting and as the description reads quite tinted and buttery yellow in other lighting.

I would refer you to this excellent post by John Pollard addressing this issue and the reason why it is so often stated as you stated it, when in fact AGS is actually more consistent than the current GIA reports. It is easy and popular for members in the trade to bring question and doubt to AGS reports. It is also wrong.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/2-69ct-g-vvs2-worries-feather-natural-ags-color-clarity.203189/#p3698017[/URL]

Wink

Hi Wink,
Yep I've read that and the ongoing debate on here about the two labs. I've seen more softer or more generous gradings from AGS than GIA here in Australia, (admittedly they were older certificates) sure GIA graders can be inaccurate as well, I've seen one or two of them that were a colour or clarity less but I've seen more stones from them that were on the fence or more harshly graded by GIA than AGS. I have seen far less AGS than GIA stones here generally. I wonder if Garry has an opinion on why.
 

Karl_K

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The problem is the standard is set by an 800 pound gorilla that is not consistent and changes over time.
the standard is not a strait line written in stone.
It acts more like a jump rope with gia holding onto one end and send shock waves through the rope with everyone who trying to do good grading along for the ride on the rope.
The only real answer is to take the grading standards out of the hands of gia.
China is attempting to do so in China.
 

OoohShiny

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Karl_K|1406652890|3722614 said:
The problem is the standard is set by an 800 pound gorilla that is not consistent and changes over time.
the standard is not a strait line written in stone.
It acts more like a jump rope with gia holding onto one end and send shock waves through the rope with everyone who trying to do good grading along for the ride on the rope.
The only real answer is to take the grading standards out of the hands of gia.
China is attempting to do so in China.
Really?

That's interesting.

Given China's wide range of 'culture' (I can't think of the word I want), from strict adherence to rules, all the way through to "We'll pretend to crack down on the counterfeiters once a year but will turn a blind eye and an open palm to those who do it because it creates jobs and brings money into the country", I wonder if they will be able to create a grading system that is accurate and also strictly applied?
 

Karl_K

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OoohShiny|1406657491|3722644 said:
Karl_K|1406652890|3722614 said:
The problem is the standard is set by an 800 pound gorilla that is not consistent and changes over time.
the standard is not a strait line written in stone.
It acts more like a jump rope with gia holding onto one end and send shock waves through the rope with everyone who trying to do good grading along for the ride on the rope.
The only real answer is to take the grading standards out of the hands of gia.
China is attempting to do so in China.
Really?

That's interesting.

Given China's wide range of 'culture' (I can't think of the word I want), from strict adherence to rules, all the way through to "We'll pretend to crack down on the counterfeiters once a year but will turn a blind eye and an open palm to those who do it because it creates jobs and brings money into the country", I wonder if they will be able to create a grading system that is accurate and also strictly applied?
A while back Sir John posted a lot of information on it.
I don't have time atm to search for it.
 

Karl_K

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Got the link from Sir John,
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/china-rise-exploding-economy-fantastic-future-part-two

"There are many gemological labs in China. Among them is the National Gemstone Testing Center (NGTC). This is a body with great presence and power, particularly in cities near the coastline. In addition to laboratory grading services, the NGTC is also able to function as the “policing agency” for lab standards. With the authorization of the Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, any store with foreign grading reports can be entered by the NGTC, which can remove items for inspection and testing in its lab. Upon testing it’s possible for those goods to be downgraded, in which case the store must pay a fine and negotiate to get the penalized goods back. In extreme cases, the store may be reported in the press for using “unreliable foreign reports.” For all of the incredible growth in China we should not forget this is a one-party Communist country."
 

Phanie

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I saw this ring back in November.
Lovely but not for me , too small ring and not sizeable enough, also the diamond did not speak to me. I so wanted to love it though.
The diamond is quite yellow buttery.
I own a AGS N from LAD. Based on memory only I want to say it is pretty close in color to mine.
Also the melee is pretty white which makes the stone pop out for contrast more.
All said IMO of course.
 

tjkswift

Rough_Rock
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Jul 15, 2014
Messages
58
The Leon Mege setting that the diamond was in has been sold, so now it's just the diamond.

This is what I've found out about this diamond.

A PS'er purchased it from Single Stone as a J/K color.
They sent it to Martin Fuller for an appraisal, and he graded the color an M.
This PS'er sold it to another PS'er.
The new owner had it appraised by David Atlas, who graded the color as N/O. The current owner sent it to Jewels by Grace on consignment and they had the diamond AGS graded, and the color came back as being an L.

Soooo, this diamond has been rated anywhere from a J in color to an O in color?????

I'm going to pass on the diamond as I just don't have the warm and fuzzy feelings that I had about the diamond when I first seen it. But it really has me thinking about how to educate and protect myself in my upcoming diamond purchase.
 

SirGuy

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Regarding the spreads on different appraisals (J/K and N/O) it makes me wonder how many of those gradings were done while the stone was in the setting.
 

Texas Leaguer

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SirGuy|1406735586|3723128 said:
Regarding the spreads on different appraisals (J/K and N/O) it makes me wonder how many of those gradings were done while the stone was in the setting.
That can most definitely be a reason for the discrepancies. I would also say that colors beyond the near colorless range are the hardest to nail down accurately. Add to that the fact that it is an antique cushion which could have variable color entrapment properties. The labs have the decided advantage of having a full range of masters to work with.
 

Rockdiamond

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I agree with Brian- the lower colors- from L all the way down to U-V are super difficult to predict. Especially with older cuts where the color does not show equally throughout the stone.
GIA also has the advantage of being able to say- "It's an N color- do you want to argue?"- we all know who's going to win that fight 90% of the time:)
 

WinkHPD

Ideal_Rock
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Rockdiamond|1406739826|3723149 said:
I agree with Brian- the lower colors- from L all the way down to U-V are super difficult to predict. Especially with older cuts where the color does not show equally throughout the stone.
GIA also has the advantage of being able to say- "It's an N color- do you want to argue?"- we all know who's going to win that fight 90% of the time:)

Yes, but, so far as I can tell from the story, only AGS has been given a chance to actually grade the diamond in a laboratory.

Independent graders do not have the same credence as the top tier labs, even if they are actually correct.

Wink
 

tjkswift

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
58
Single stone sold the diamond in no setting and called it a J/K

The person that bought it had it appraised, unset, and that appraiser called it an M.


The next person that purchased the ring, had it appraised. I'm not sure if this appraisal was in the setting or not, but that appraiser graded the diamond as an N/O.

The L grading by AGS was without a setting.
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
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Karl_K|1406663750|3722684 said:
Got the link from Sir John,
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/china-rise-exploding-economy-fantastic-future-part-two

"There are many gemological labs in China. Among them is the National Gemstone Testing Center (NGTC). This is a body with great presence and power, particularly in cities near the coastline. In addition to laboratory grading services, the NGTC is also able to function as the “policing agency” for lab standards. With the authorization of the Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine, any store with foreign grading reports can be entered by the NGTC, which can remove items for inspection and testing in its lab. Upon testing it’s possible for those goods to be downgraded, in which case the store must pay a fine and negotiate to get the penalized goods back. In extreme cases, the store may be reported in the press for using “unreliable foreign reports.” For all of the incredible growth in China we should not forget this is a one-party Communist country."
Many thanks for digging that out, Karl most kind :)

The double-edged sword that is China and its politics! lol
 

ericad

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Grading the lower colors is so tricky, even for the labs. Case in point, I bought two uncerted "cape" cushions a few months back. Busted out my grading stones and preliminarily called one an L/M and the other M/N, GIA standards. The warmer stone was only ever so slightly warmer, and I felt very confident in this early assessment - it was whiter than my N grading stone, by a smidge. I then sent both stones off to GIA. The first came back an L, as predicted. The second came back a Q/R. :o

In my mind there was no way that stone was a Q/R - I have had others in this color range and they're quite yellow, so I requested that they look again. GIA amended their color grade to O/P.

So, what color was it REALLY? M/N/O/P/Q/R range, lol. Even the labs contradict themselves sometimes! And if I had it independently appraised it may have been slightly different too, I suppose. And maybe AGS would have called it something else.

It seems as though color grading should be very straightforward, but unfortunately it's not - even within each color grade there is a range. The best you can do is ask for an AGS or GIA cert (the two best labs, in my opinion) or an appraisal from someone known to be trustworthy and strict (Dave, Neil, etc.), and then if you love the stone and the price feels right, don't let the subjectivity of color grading paralyze you from buying a piece you love. And with old cuts especially, how they look face down on a white surface versus face up adds a whole other layer of complexity - some face up very warm, others very white, even if they're the same color face down.

Good luck with your search!
 

oldminer

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I won't insist my N/O grading was correct. I don't recall the circumstances and if the diamond was set or not when I graded it. However, while I strive to be accurate, my preference is not to exaggerate the color or clarity grade of a diamond I have been asked to grade. It is far better for a consumer to buy a diamond as an N/O only to find out GIA grades it at some point later in time as a better grade than for the reverse to occur. I have purchased thousands of diamonds over many years and know that GIA is not able to grade with the consistency we all wish and believe in. It is a fact that cannot be easily proven and is not said in my own defense, but just a way of sharing the reality that grading of color can go up or down unexpectedly on some diamonds when GIA or AGSL grades them. No one can explain it and it is not intentional. The system of color grading diamonds as it currently exists works well for the trade, but has imperfections in the way it is constructed. We have beaten up this subject many times, but human grading of color will not be further improved by GIA regardless of the time and care they choose to expend. I am convinced they cannot do better. Other labs could meet GIA criteria better to varying extents, but no lab can duplicate GIA results all the time because GIA cannot duplicate their own results all the time.

My own experience in recent years has been buying diamonds for H color and getting back a GIA report anywhere from F to J. In an appeal for a re-grade of color I use an ex-GIA lab advisor and only re-submit stones that they feel confident might get a color changed. About 1/2 of those do get a color changed. The other 1/2 cost another half fee for the re-consideration and refusal to change the grading. That is a rather biased system to work with, but that is how it is done.

My own GIA blessed diamond masters cover D through P/Q and also I own a Y/Z graded 1 carat GIA graded round diamond reserved for color grading. Even with a fairly complete group of diamonds, it remains an elusive target. I'm pleased that it was graded an "L" color as it will seem a better value for a consumer than what I thought it was. Maybe I'd grade it different now, but who knows?
 
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