My visit to Langerman Diamonds

[susiegrneyes]

Drumroll please.....0.005ct - yup 1/2 pointer It was so tiny it got stuck to the diamond tweezer by itself for the photo. I've never seen natural FCD's in such saturated colors in tiny tiny rounds before. Picked up 2 of them, as there were not that many but wish I could have had a whole parcel of them! Rare but at least I know they exist.

Kroshka

There's a whole lot of color packed into that little stone. Thank you for sharing all these pictures with us!

 

[EastIndian]

Ok Kenny, this one's for you! Slightly over a carat VIVD GREEN






Kroshka

Now THAT's an FCD.

My dream stone is to own a large fancy vivid green diamond. It will never happen, but thanks for the pic.

my dream too. for now i own a photo of a large vivid green diamond!

 

[T L]

Wow!!! Gorgeous pictures Kroshka, you have really done our stones justice! It was our pleasure to host you in our office and we would love to host you again if you ever return to Antwerp for a visit.

Just to quickly address a couple of questions regarding our policies and the certification issue. We have access to one of the largest stocks of natural colored diamonds (or FCD’s as referred to here), some of which my father has been collecting since before FCD’s were popular (I know this is hard to believe, but there was a time when FCD’s were placed in the path of rejection).

So, to have every FCD certified in advance would, first, be an enormous task, and more importantly, it would not be economically viable for us. Then, to top it all off, the GIA has an incredible backlog of work due to high demand and it takes 4-8 weeks to get a stone graded by the GIA. This is why our preference tends to lean towards the IGI, whom we believe is an equally credible laboratory and a great alternative to the GIA. At the IGI it is half the time only taking 10-14 days.

Also, our main client body is made up mostly of jewelers and diamond dealers, as we remain a wholesale natural colored diamond shop first, and most professionals in the trade do not require a certificate. In fact, they usually only demand a certificate for diamonds that have a value above $5,000.

Lastly, how much confidence do you have in a certificate dating from the 1940’s? I don’t know about you, but if I were going to make the splurge, I would probably want to get that diamond certified again. Science has progressed so much over the decades and continues to leap mounds, while a certificate from decades ago has its prestige, I would doubt its scientific accuracy. Although it is a nice thought to think that we would sell all of our diamonds within the next decade, it is just not realistic. This is why we prefer to wait and then have the diamond certified according to our customers’ preferences.

With all of this being said, we are happy to get any of our stones above $800 certified for you by the IGI and any stone above $1,500 by the GIA, free of charge. However, for stones below this price we ask you to pay a participation for the certification costs (between $80-$150), but we are always happy to get that done for you. Our website was first created as a tool to bring awareness to natural colored diamonds and their many shades, serving the main purpose of sharing our passion around the world.

I hope this demystifies any concerns! If not, then please do not hesitate to ask

P.S. @lambskin all round diamonds, even the very small diamonds, have 57 facets

So if someone decides to get the stone a report that only has an IGI (I don't like the word "certification" as that isn't what it is), and then decides to get a new report for it by GIA and the color difference goes one step below what IGI would give (I hear they're more generous on their grades than GIA), do you offer some refund, as the price per carat on, for some saturations and hues, are far less, even if its by one grade. I'm sorry, but I would not pay the appropriate price per carat for an IGI fancy vivid yellow for example, if GIA grades it a fancy intense yellow, or a fancy deep yellow. GIA is still the respected leader for FCD's in the trade, no matter how much you or anyone else respects IGI. I've heard that from your main competitor as well. They typically send lower cost FCD's to IGI for that very reason.

 

[Langerman_Diamonds]

@TL - thank you for your question!
The problem with grading FCD’s, and this is something the GIA have admitted themselves (we have the quote printed on our wall here in the office), is that it is subjective, and not an exact science. We have GIA graded diamonds in stock that have colors which are very different to the eye – yet they have the same color grading in the certificate. We also have GIA graded diamonds that have the same color to the eye – yet they have different color grading in the certificate. With this kind of situation, it is impossible to set the prices based only on the color grading in the certificate.

What adds to the issue is that nature has invented many more colors and nuances than the laboratories – which means that there are diamonds that do not exactly correspond to a color grade. As opposed to white diamonds, where the laboratories have master stones to grade the color, this is impossible to set up for FCD’s due to the numerous colors and nuances that exist. While we can estimate the color grading in advance most of the time, there are colors for which it is nearly impossible to give an accurate estimation of the grading on beforehand. This is not because we lack experience, but because it is fairly arbitrary, and complicated even for the laboratories.

So to answer your question, I’m sorry to tell you that we do not offer a refund if a diamond is graded differently by for example the GIA, than by the IGI. While we do of course recognize the importance of certificates both to guarantee the natural origin of the color and to a certain extent to determine the value, our policy is to sell diamonds, not paper. We base the value and thus the price on the actual color of the diamond, not solely on the color grading it would receive in the certificate, as the color grading in the certificate is subjective, whereas the actual color is something absolute.

 

[T L]

I don't mean to argue with you, but I just wanted to point out that in some of your listings, you do give some gems very high and expensive grades. For example, this stone does not have a GIA report, but you call it "fancy vivid orange." Now straight orange diamonds are extremely rare to begin with let alone fancy vivid. On something like this, I would want a GIA before purchasing.

http://www.langerman-diamonds.com/shop/4765-orange-diamond-marquise-0_26-ct-polished.html

This is a 26 point "fancy vivid orange" that you graded yourself, no GIA report, and you want $5700. In your video, the stone does appear to have significant yellow, if the video is accurate. I would not want to pay that much for a yellow orange, and I would want the GIA for peace of mind. If it comes back from the GIA with a yellow secondary, I would be rather upset paying so much for the stone, even though a fancy vivid orange diamond that size would be much more, but a fancy vivid yellow orange would still be far less than that gem.

Because GIA may call it fancy vivid yellow or fancy vivid yellow orange, as it did for this diamond, and the price would then be significantly lower.

http://www.leibish.com/orange-diamond/034ct-fancy-vivid-yellow-orange-pear-53436-12280

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you as a vendor, but I do applaud your main competitor who does obtain GIA reports for diamonds that they see as having potentially rare and valuable color, and so I take issue with some of your comments. I do think the GIA lab report does matter greatly. Please reconsider a GIA report on any diamond you see as having potentially valuable color, because if that truly is a fancy vivid orange, then it would be very valuable, but if it were just a fancy vivid yellow orange, or some derivation of yellow and orange, it shouldn't be priced that high for a small stone.

Here is a picture of your diamond from the video that I was speaking of that your company calls "fancy vivid orange."

I am also attaching a photo of the 34 point GIA fancy vivid yellow orange that is around $2500 from your competitor who is known for accurate photos.

 

[LoversKites]

I agree with TL's point. I think GIA's opinion on colour has too big an impact on price and value to be excluded from a purchase. Especially in the cases of very rare colours with no modifiers like TL pointed out.

 

[mariedtiger]

I agree as well. Although I sympathize with the problem of color being subjective, the absence of GIA reports makes it difficult for the consumer to compare prices, especially if you are a new customer who is still deciding who to buy from.

 

[kroshka]

Since some of Langerman's policies have been clarified, as stated, stones over $1500 can get a GIA report at no charge. I would assume that if the customer does not like the grade that GIA gives, then the customer can simply return the stone because they have a 30 day return policy. I guess this would put customers in more of a quandry if the stone they were interested in was less than $1500.00. From a customer point of view, the only negative to a stone that is $1500 or above, is the waiting since it can take weeks or even months to get the report back. I am assuming here that the customer would have 30 days to return a stone once the GIA report comes back. Langermans, please clarify if anything I have stated is incorrect.

Buyers have a choice, and it is my impression that Pricescope buyers are more saavy than the average buyer and most of the time will choose/have preference to buy stones with GIA reports not only for peace of mind but for re-sale purposes too. New people that come to Pricescope for research on FCDs, I think would also have a tendency to go with the advice that any stone bought should come with a GIA report.

This is all from a general educated retail customer perspective and expectations.

Langerman's being a wholesale to the trade shop primarily, perhaps has a different view coming into the retail sector. I think there is a bit of a gap because a trade client is different from a retail consumer client. The competitor that I think TL is referring to, in my opinion does a good job of catering to the retail customer and takes the guess work out of mind because almost all the stones they sell or list come with GIA reports. Along the lines of LoversKites and mariedtiger's points, there is no need to wonder if the stone is natural, what color grade the GIA would give, and it makes it easier to try to compare prices for apples to apples etc. Even though color can be subjective, like it or not, GIA is the standard mark for grading of FCDs and viewed as such by most Pricescope standards and customers. And that benchmark is what many people will choose to make their purchase decisions on.


Kroshka

 

[Marlow]

On the other hand if you buy a fancy gray with IGI certificate - send it to GIA and get fancy bluish gray back would somebody send more money to the vendor?

But I understand TL - we are talking about a lot of money...

Pro7 - a german TV channel - visited Leibish company. The showed a fancy intense yellow diamond - I was a bit shocked as Mr. Polnauer talked to the audience ( in german as I remember) that they will recut a facet in the pavillion and hope that GIA will grade it then as
fancy greenish yellow... only by recutting a facet!!

But how many FCD have I seen and how many Mr. Polnauer!!!

Think it is a bit gambling for the company what they get back.

 

[Langerman_Diamonds]

Thank you all for adding to this interesting discussion!
Of course we recognize the importance of a certificate for a client to have peace of mind, especially regarding the natural origin of the color. For this either the IGI or the GIA will do the same good job – it’s only for the color grading that there could be a difference, and where there can be a discussion.

Our situation is indeed different in the sense that we are primarily wholesale dealers, and while some of our competitors who are more focused on the retail market propose a few hundred diamonds for sale, and thus have a greater possibility to get a GIA certificate for each of them – we have tens of thousands of diamonds in stock, and this makes the situation very different.

We do however always try our best to accommodate the desires of each client – from those who do not want any certificate, to those who prefer the IGI over the GIA, and those who want a GIA grading before they decide to purchase a diamond. We would never force anyone to purchase a diamond they are not happy with, be it for the color or the color grading on the certificate, and we always clarify all these details together with the client before we ship the diamond. And as Kroshka points out, we offer a 30-day return policy from the day the client receives the diamond, to be sure that our clients can always change their mind after seeing the diamond (and the certificate, when applicable), in real life.

I hope this helps to clarify our position!

Ps. We also always guarantee our diamonds are natural as we polish them ourselves, and we know them from their rough state to the finished, polished stone, so we never have any doubts as to the natural origin of the color. And you can indeed change the color of a FCD only by recutting one facet! That is all the art of manufacturing FCD’s.

 

[Langerman_Diamonds]

Oh and a quick note as well concerning our videos – they are often not accurate in terms of color, it is very difficult to regulate the lighting conditions to capture the true color when we shoot the videos. They are good to get an idea of the life and sparkle of the diamond, but for the color, we ask our clients to look at the photos. Diamonds are one of the hardest things in the world to capture in photos and videos, and color diamonds even more so than white diamonds.

 

[Marlow]

Kroshka,

do you remember how much the small melee round HGBV diamond cost pct?

Think I need one!

 

[kroshka]

Kroshka,

do you remember how much the small melee round HGBV diamond cost pct?

Think I need one!

HGBV? I am assuming you mean - hydrogen gray blue violet? I really don't know the prices because it was on a per stone basis depending on the exact shade. If I was interested in knowing the price of a particular stone, Natacha would weigh it, look at it and then give a price. Also, I do not know that all of those that I photographed would be considered hydrogen rich HGBV diamonds, if that is something you are specifically looking for.

Kroshka

 

[Marlow]

Kroshka,

do you remember how much the small melee round HGBV diamond cost pct?

Think I need one!

HGBV? I am assuming you mean - hydrogen gray blue violet? I really don't know the prices because it was on a per stone basis depending on the exact shade. If I was interested in knowing the price of a particular stone, Natacha would weigh it, look at it and then give a price. Also, I do not know that all of those that I photographed would be considered hydrogen rich HGBV diamonds, if that is something you are specifically looking for.

Kroshka

Thank you,

yes, I think these gray violet and blues on your pictures are HGBVs from Argyle. Type IIb with boron is also possible but very rare.

I think of a small Argyle collection in pinks and blue/violets ( 0,05-0,08 ct) in the next years.