Americans, how do you feel about America?

[Rhea]

Just saying that Europe isn't perfect either. It sounds as if it can be very hidebound and conservative - judging from those I know from those countries.

I think that's part of the point, no one is saying Europe is perfect. Nearly every single non-American on this thread and the other who have rated their countries verbally are giving a less than perfect score. I'd give England an 8 as mentioned on the other thread. There are problems everywhere including Europe, and there are benefits and drawbacks to living anywhere. But part of what brings the US down in score, for me, is this idea that so many Americans think it's perfect, wonderful, and there is no better place on earth. That keeps coming up time and time again and is reflected in the results of this poll which currently show that 35% of voters consider it to be "The best country in the world" and another 10% giving it a 9. I've not yet seen that attitude in Europe.

I personally don't find England to be conservative but I live in London and work in the charity sector - both a liberal city and a liberal sector. I'm sure it does still exist. Switzerland did get suffrage very late! 1971 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland

 

[mochiko42]

Just saying that Europe isn't perfect either. It sounds as if it can be very hidebound and conservative - judging from those I know from those countries.

I think that's part of the point, no one is saying Europe is perfect. Nearly every single non-American on this thread and the other who have rated their countries verbally are giving a less than perfect score. I'd give England an 8 as mentioned on the other thread. There are problems everywhere including Europe, and there are benefits and drawbacks to living anywhere. But part of what brings the US down in score, for me, is this idea that so many Americans think it's perfect, wonderful, and there is no better place on earth. That keeps coming up time and time again and is reflected in the results of this poll which currently show that 35% of voters consider it to be "The best country in the world" and another 10% giving it a 9. I've not yet seen that attitude in Europe.

I personally don't find England to be conservative but I live in London and work in the charity sector - both a liberal city and a liberal sector. I'm sure it does still exist. Switzerland did get suffrage very late! 1971 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_Switzerland

+1 agree with everything you said.

 

[Imdanny]

I love my country.

 

[redwood66]

[quote="nkarma|1404829415|Areas of improvement:
1. Institutionalized racism. The numbers of minorities in prison and not in the university system are staggering and are not a coincidence.

And guess who chose that path? Yup, just blame everything on society instead of looking in the mirror ...

You have never been treated better or discriminated against because you're Asian? If you haven't noticed, lucky you, but it is there whether you notice it or not. No one knows what it's like to walk in another person's shoes, especially people that come from privilege and that includes your gender and race.

If there isn't such things as institutionalized sexism, racism, etc... why will your daughters earn less money that will add up to hundred of thousands of dollars over their whole lives than if you had sons? Maybe they should take a look in the mirror!

I really don't think you are saying Latinos and African Americans choose to be incarcerated at a rate that is 6X that of white Americans for the same crimes, but it kind of sounds like it. [/quote]


Having spent an entire career "incarcerated" 8-16 hours a day I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of those criminals are EXACTLY where they should be. Choices were made by those individuals and no one made them murder, rape, sell drugs, or molest children. Millions of people are in the same living and social conditions but choose not to commit crimes.

So I call BS on your comment from my personal experience with those scumbags. They absolutely made that choice. Personal Responsibility...

 

[mousey]

"So I call BS on your comment from my personal experience with those scumbags. They absolutely made that choice. Personal Responsibility..."

So what lesson do we draw from the statistics? That minorities are more likely to make poor choices because they are less responsible than non-minorities?

Its pretty easy to say that everyone is free to make the right choices and then punish when some don't make those choices. Looking at the statistics of the ethnic make-up of the prison population should make us question why some segments of society make these choices more frequently than others. It would be totally wrong to say they are more likely to make these choices because they are part of a certain minority. It is of course more appropriate to look at other factors which effect these minorities disproportionally, like poverty, difficulty accessing education, historic subjugation, etc. The next step is to wonder whether society should spend money on trying to mitigate these factors. Of course, that might come close to social liberalism. But really, society is spending money anyway - its either on prisons or on providing a social net that fosters the conditions necessary for personal responsibility.

 

[redwood66]

I did not say they made those choices because of their minority status. In fact I did not mention race or any other type at all.

Lack of respect for human life and property including their own, its easier to commit crimes than work, don't know or weren't taught any better, because my gang-banger family/friends do it, status symbol, etc. the list goes on and on. And if liberals think they can make a dent in the majority of these problems by throwing money at it then they are fooling themselves and all of us - "social net that fosters the conditions necessary for personal responsibility." The communities where this happens need to be totally involved and committed to changing it. Government can't fix it - it can't fix much anyway. Lets pay millions to do a study right?

You are not saying we should not punish those who make the bad choices are you? "You get a pass because you are "poor, whatever..."

 

[mousey]

Government can't fix it - it can't fix much anyway. Lets pay millions to do a study right?

The money is spent in any case. Some countries spend it on welfare and some on imprisonment. In fact, there is a relationship between the two types of spending - a country which spends more on welfare tends to spend less on imprisonment and vice versa. See the paper linked:

http://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/sites/crimeandjustice.org.uk/files/Welfare_and_Punishment_webversion.pdf

The truth is I know it is pretty easy for me to make the right choices - I am not poor, I am educated and I (and my forebears) don't have a history of being subjugated and denied basic civil rights. I think of myself as a moral person, and I try hard to do the right thing. But if I was desperately poor and I had very little in terms of education and/or opportunities.... Then I know it would be much harder to make the right choices. I hope I would pass that test.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="nkarma|1404829415|Areas of improvement:
1. Institutionalized racism. The numbers of minorities in prison and not in the university system are staggering and are not a coincidence.

And guess who chose that path? Yup, just blame everything on society instead of looking in the mirror ...

You have never been treated better or discriminated against because you're Asian? If you haven't noticed, lucky you, but it is there whether you notice it or not. No one knows what it's like to walk in another person's shoes, especially people that come from privilege and that includes your gender and race.

If there isn't such things as institutionalized sexism, racism, etc... why will your daughters earn less money that will add up to hundred of thousands of dollars over their whole lives than if you had sons? Maybe they should take a look in the mirror!

I really don't think you are saying Latinos and African Americans choose to be incarcerated at a rate that is 6X that of white Americans for the same crimes, but it kind of sounds like it.[/quote]

TBH, I have been living here in Ca. for 47 yrs now and I don't feel I was ever discriminated against.

My wife and daughter earn the same salaries as their male counterparts with the same job title.

The reason there are more Latinos and African Americans incarcerated then any other ethnic group b/c most of them grew up in a single parent home w/o proper family supervision, plus their parents mostly likely grew up in the same type of family environment. Why do you think that there are so many young Asians in the medical and high tech field today? b/c most of these Asians were raised by both parents who would push their kids to go to college and get a higher level of education.

 

[redwood66]

Government can't fix it - it can't fix much anyway. Lets pay millions to do a study right?

The money is spent in any case. Some countries spend it on welfare and some on imprisonment. In fact, there is a relationship between the two types of spending - a country which spends more on welfare tends to spend less on imprisonment and vice versa. See the paper linked:

http://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/sites/crimeandjustice.org.uk/files/Welfare_and_Punishment_webversion.pdf

The truth is I know it is pretty easy for me to make the right choices - I am not poor, I am educated and I (and my forebears) don't have a history of being subjugated and denied basic civil rights. I think of myself as a moral person, and I try hard to do the right thing. But if I was desperately poor and I had very little in terms of education and/or opportunities.... Then I know it would be much harder to make the right choices. I hope I would pass that test.

The money is spent in any case but if they are incarcerated they aren't running around causing problems. Some are there because they want to be.

DF is absolutely right about how someone is raised being the most important factor in how they turn out. We have too many generations of people with no personal responsibility so none of them know how to succeed. This becomes a crutch and an excuse. Its just easier to be on welfare and/or commit crimes. I had multiple fathers and sons, cousins, brothers, etc., living together as cellmates. How depressing is that?

How do you change someone who does not want to change? If you know the answer to that then spill because no one else has come up with it.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="redwood66|1404923536|
Having spent an entire career "incarcerated" 8-16 hours a day I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of those criminals are EXACTLY where they should be. Choices were made by those individuals and no one made them murder, rape, sell drugs, or molest children. Millions of people are in the same living and social conditions but choose not to commit crimes.

So I call BS on your comment from my personal experience with those scumbags. They absolutely made that choice. Personal Responsibility...[/quote]



Yup, agreed with you 101%...

 

[Dancing Fire]

If the U.S. is such a horrible country why would they wanted to come here?...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/white-house-migrant-children-return-131145030-cbs.html

 

[Maria D]

If the U.S. is such a horrible country why would they wanted to come here?...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/white-house-migrant-children-return-131145030-cbs.html

Reading through all the posts, I don't see that anyone is claiming that the U.S. is such a horrible country.

As of course you know DF, the migrant children are being sent here by their parents because conditions are unsafe at home. This is due to gang violence caused by the drug trade. What, if anything, do you feel we U.S. citizens should be doing about this? I think a good start would be to stop being world leaders in illegal drug use. (Probably legal drug use too, for all I know.)

 

[ForteKitty]

TBH, I have been living here in Ca. for 47 yrs now and I don't feel I was ever discriminated against.

My wife and daughter earn the same salaries as their male counterparts with the same job title.

The reason there are more Latinos and African Americans incarcerated then any other ethnic group b/c most of them grew up in a single parent home w/o proper family supervision, plus their parents mostly likely grew up in the same type of family environment. Why do you think that there are so many young Asians in the medical and high tech field today? b/c most of these Asians were raised by both parents who would push their kids to go to college and get a higher level of education.

1) Lucky you. I was born and raised in CA (34 years now) and have experienced racism plenty, even in this state but mostly in other states, starting at a very young age.

2) Your wife and daughter work for govt agencies. You know that's not a fair comparison. I work for one as well, so I can't complain either! However, working in private industry is different, as many of my friends can attest. Many of my female friends earn less than their male counterparts who have the same title, and do the same job, with the same number of years of service.

3) Times have been changing. About half of my Asian friends were raised by single parents. Single parents still push their kids to go to college and I know plenty of doctors and people in high tech fields that came from "broken families". It was definitely expected in my family, and my own parents are divorced. I started staying home alone at age 9 because my mom had to work two jobs and was gone from 6am to midnight so I pretty much had zero supervision growing up. Conversely, I know PLENTY of Asian kids with both parents still married, who never finished college and are still living at home off mommy and daddy. I also grew up with plenty of Asian kids from "wholesome good families" who got tied up with the wrong crowd early on and ended up in juvie and are back in jail.


As someone who grew up in a mixed ethnic neighborhood (half Asian, half Latino), I can tell you that if two kids are being bad and committing a minor crime, the cops here will usually go after the Latino kid and let the Asian kid go. It used to happen all the time around here. For a whole year, my much younger brother used to get into trouble at school even though his friends were doing the same bad stuff like talking and passing notes. Years later, he confided in me that she told him that his type will never do well in life. When he asked her what "type" she was referring to, she said, "the non-Asian half of you". WTF. He is tall for his age, big for his age, and he tans and has big round eyes. Maybe he didn't look full Asian, but for a teacher to say that... man... I was beyond seething. She's lucky she retired.

 

[Dancing Fire]

If the U.S. is such a horrible country why would they wanted to come here?...

http://news.yahoo.com/video/white-house-migrant-children-return-131145030-cbs.html

Reading through all the posts, I don't see that anyone is claiming that the U.S. is such a horrible country.

As of course you know DF, the migrant children are being sent here by their parents because conditions are unsafe at home. This is due to gang violence caused by the drug trade. What, if anything, do you feel we U.S. citizens should be doing about this? I think a good start would be to stop being world leaders in illegal drug use. (Probably legal drug use too, for all I know.)

Close the flood gates now!. There are many problems all over the world that the U.S. can't solve.

 

[ForteKitty]

How do you change someone who does not want to change? If you know the answer to that then spill because no one else has come up with it.

Euthanize, then for the remaining population, develop and implement a chip system for reproductive rights. The chip will render everyone from birth to be sterile unless switched off. Unless the person is emotionally, mentally, physically, and financially fit to have children, and have to pass a test every 6 months, they are not allowed to breed.



Calm down, I'm kidding. But I know a few of you are nodding in agreement.

 

[Sky56]

The system is already sterilizing people. A chemical my mother inadvertently ingested while I was a fetus rendered me sterile. DES through the food supply. My morphology indicates it.

 

[mayerling]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

 

[packrat]

Well for certain some odd Swedes came over when my clan came..

 

[JanesJewels]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

 

[mayerling]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

Interesting that you think the only reason Europeans are not moving to the US is because it's not easy for them to allow to the US. Based on living in various places in Europe my whole live, I doubt it. I'm married to an American. No desire to move here. What's the green card lottery (the fact that I don't even know what this is should be an indication that people from Europe don't care enough about moving here to even look into the ways of moving here)?

Packrat, how far back did the Swedes you're talking about move? Somehow I don't think it was in recent years.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="JanesJewels|1404967350|
ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.[/quote]



I couldn't afford to live in Europe.

 

[Karl_K]

I love my country but sometimes wonder if I fit in my own country anymore.

It is deeply troubling to me how far the good ol USA has fallen.
Even the Russians don't take us seriously anymore.
Misuse of the military as a police force in foreign countries that is a proven failed policy but gets repeated over and over again.
President is a joke on the international scene.
Can't control the borders, well actually more like the politicians wont.
Government for the corporations by the corporations.
Really close to a police state with the line blurring between cops and the military.
Cops in many areas are out of control.
Gangs control large areas of the cities but the government would rather target lawful gun owners.
Push for more and more intrusive laws and spying on us by the government.
Push for unilateral personal disarmament.
Use of the IRS for political gain then trying to covering it up when caught.
Properly seizures and down right murder of innocents in the name of the war on drugs.
Out of control swat teams throwing grenades in baby playpens and shooting people when in the wrong house.
Cops killing peoples dogs left and right and even sometimes the owners for no valid reason.
Way too many government employees and bureaucrats.
The list just goes on and on and on.

 

[Rhea]

I love my country but sometimes wonder if I fit in my own country anymore.

President is a joke on the international scene.

I don't Americans care what outsiders think. At least that's what my very American father tells me when we discuss this. Your president is well liked in Europe. The best the US has had in recent years. When I go to the States to visit I'm always surprised at how the media portrays his popularity abroad. It's much higher than the main-stream news sources there give credit for. From an outsiders prospective it's a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation. When Russia invaded the Ukraine? It seemed half the people wanted him to DO SOMETHING NOW!!! And the other half didn't want another war when the US isn't out of it's last very unpopular one yet. The country is too divided on international issues for one person to make any large group of people happy.

I think a few of your bits ring true in several places at the moment. No place is perfect and we're not going to a wonderful good ol' anything any more. Times, they are a changin'. I blame the ease of interacting with others through cheap travel, media, and the interwebs. We have spying and government overreach as well. The UK was in bed with the US on a lot of that one

Britain is having immigration problems and the news regularly reports them in other European countries too. We get just as much racism with ours too! I have people say straight to my face that Britain should stop immigrants. I kindly point out that I am an immigrant to which the usual reply is, "not immigrants like you". I'm white. I need to leave now. I have to get ready to go to the job that I stole from a Brit, but I got away with it because of my skin colour!

 

[Karl_K]

Britain is having immigration problems and the news regularly reports them in other European countries too. We get just as much racism with ours too! I have people say straight to my face that Britain should stop immigrants. I kindly point out that I am an immigrant to which the usual reply is, "not immigrants like you". I'm white. I need to leave now. I have to get ready to go to the job that I stole from a Brit, but I got away with it because of my skin colour!

When people are let in just because of where they are from or their skin color that leads to no end of problems. Much like the ones Europe is facing and many places in the US.
All different types of people done in a fair manner to all need to be let in to make it work.

I am all for fair legal immigration my wifey4evr is a legal immigrant.
I believe that the strength of the USA depends on a steady flow of immigrants integrating into society.
What I am strongly against is illegal immigration or immigration that favors one group over another.
Rewarding someone for doing something illegal is never right. Letting someone in based on their color or where they are from is also wrong. Letting corporations bend and break the rules and sometimes even let them rewrite them for h1b and migrant worker visas is also very wrong.

For every illegal immigrant there is one less place for a legal immigrant who does it right and seeks out the American dream. That is very wrong.

 

[nkarma]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

 

[Rhea]

Britain is having immigration problems and the news regularly reports them in other European countries too. We get just as much racism with ours too! I have people say straight to my face that Britain should stop immigrants. I kindly point out that I am an immigrant to which the usual reply is, "not immigrants like you". I'm white. I need to leave now. I have to get ready to go to the job that I stole from a Brit, but I got away with it because of my skin colour!

When people are let in just because of where they are from or their skin color that leads to no end of problems. Much like the ones Europe is facing and many places in the US.
All different types of people done in a fair manner to all need to be let in to make it work.

I am all for fair legal immigration my wifey4evr is a legal immigrant.
I believe that the strength of the USA depends on a steady flow of immigrants integrating into society.
What I am strongly against is illegal immigration or immigration that favors one group over another.
Rewarding someone for doing something illegal is never right. Letting someone in based on their color or where they are from is also wrong. Letting corporations bend and break the rules and sometimes even let them rewrite them for h1b and migrant worker visas is also very wrong.

For every illegal immigrant there is one less place for a legal immigrant who does it right and seeks out the American dream. That is very wrong.

There are things that I wish that US policy would stop, consider, and potentially reverse their opinions on. I wonder if illegal immigration would drop at all if the US didn't give citizenship to any one born inside it's borders? I don't have the answer, that truly is a question, and a question for policy makers at that. But the US seems to loathe a change of policy and heart. It's as though it indicates weakness rather than a reconsideration based on current facts and goals as a country. I can think of another example but won't touch that on this thread!

 

[Rhea]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.

 

[mayerling]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.

 

[redwood66]

I love my country but sometimes wonder if I fit in my own country anymore.

President is a joke on the international scene.

I don't Americans care what outsiders think. At least that's what my very American father tells me when we discuss this. Your president is well liked in Europe.

Personally I do not care what outsiders think. The fact that our current President is well liked in Europe and he wants us to be more like Europe scares the crap out of me. I do not want to be like Europe with all the free stuff. That bill comes due eventually and free stuff leads to entitlement mentality. We already have a big enough problem with that.

 

[redwood66]

DF, immigration is not a good way to judge how great a country is. Look at the kind of immigration the US gets (in masses, not individual immigration). People from clearly less well-to-do countries want to move here, en masse. Yes, you might get the odd Swede, the odd Finn, the odd Brit, but you certainly won't get them en masse.

But isn't it quite difficult for people from those countries - Sweden, Finland, Britain - to legally move here? Move permanently, I mean, not doing a year's work here with their company. I think the only two ways are to marry or to have a job that can't be done by an American? And I think - don't quote me on this - but I think I read somewhere that Britain is excluded from the green card lottery. So maybe other European countries are excluded too. I think it's very hard for Europeans to come here permanently without a special skill or marrying a US citizen. The way some of the study abroad students were talking at college, they'd gladly exchange high taxes, crowded conditions and unreliable weather for the choices in lifestyle that the US offers, (City? Prairie? Mountains?) and the generally lower taxes (depending on state).

Just saying that the difficulties of moving here might explain the lack of European mass immigration.

ETA: Wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if free immigration was allowed between America and Europe for, say, a year? I wonder how many Europeans would come here. I mean, the weather's not so good in Scandinavia! And I wonder how many Americans would pack up and go to Europe.

The weather I think is really the least of people's worries in where they want to live. I think quality of life in terms of healthcare, public transport, education, poverty, violence, income, etc... are going to rank well above weather. Actually Scandanavia has lovely weather most of the year even more so than the northern & NE US, imo. People from Scandanavian countries have been consecutively ranked the happiest in the world even though they pay the highest tax rates. So I wouldn't use them as an example of European countries that wish they could immigrate.

Agreed! I think the initial draw would be there but then reality would kick in. It seems great for a 2 wk holiday in the Florida sun, but the same friend who wants the Florida sun and large American style property also is self-employed and wants 3 - 4 kids. On balance, I think the reality of health care, tax breaks for the self-employed, family leave and benefits including for men, and holiday time (6 weeks versus 2 weeks) would mean that a permanent move to the US wouldn't be that appealing for a significant percentage of Europeans.

The bolded has a price that I am not willing to pay so someone else can sit on their ass. I was back to work in the prison 8 weeks after a c-section with my twins. Why should someone else pay for me to be at home?