Buying Rubies in Myanmar - need help

[lawnmower79]

Hello, I'm considering planning a trip to Myanmar and buying an unheated Mogok ruby from the Gem Museum in Yangon. I've got a few questions for anyone who's actually been there before:

- Is it possible to hire an gem expert or a local to shop gems with you? If so, how much do they cost? Can you trust them?
- Is it better to pay in USD or kyats when you buy rubies?
- What are the retail prices for an untreated mogok ruby of size around 1 carat with excellent color and quality (good cut, few inclusions apart from silk, no chips on the side)? How about 1.3 carat, 1.5 carat or 2 carat? Realistically, what price can you bargain them down to?
- How long does it take for Stalwarts to do a gem appraisal?
- Is Mogok a better place to buy high quality (cut and polished) rubies?

I've been also considering buying rubies in Thailand as well, but it appears to be more risky in terms of landing a fake there. Are their markets trustworthy enough to buy from? Price-wise, how do they compare to Myanmar?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[Marlow]

Interesting questions - wish you a lot of success in Myanmar and Thailand.

And if somebody knows the exact retail prices - I'm interested too !!!

 

[jarne]

hello

you clearly have no clue so save your money.

But if you dont want to take my advise I will give you another one for free.

Marry the first thai woman you meet in pat pong, give her all your available cash and your atms, ask her to buy you a nice ruby and meet you back in the bar later.
This will propably land you a sweet mill in profit, and you will have a virgin wife on top of it all.
Life is grand

best regards

 

[lawnmower79]

Since I haven't been to these places, yes I'll admit I don't have much of an idea. This is why I'm digging around the internet trying to find as much information as possible. However, some of these reports can be conflicting as well.

Jarne, I want a no-strings-attached deal

 

[lambskin]

Here is my humble experience. In the early 1990s we travelled to Burma. The place was dirt cheap. Very few tourists other than backpackers and Rangoon was a dump. I did my research and wanted to leave the the country with a beautiful ruby and a piece of Imperial quality jade. We went to the jade market where the poorest looking men approached you with pieces of beautiful jade-- at Hong Kong retail prices! They knew what they were selling and would not negotiate much with foreigners. I have purchased stuff around the world but found them really stubborn to deal with. Plus any negotiation would be impeded by a circle of the other dealers balrking at you and the seller in a different language basically helping the seller keep the market price high. Alas, I left without a piece. Now for rubies it was exactly the same as the jade market. But there was one striking difference. The quality and cutting of the rubies were very poor. All the good quality stuff was exported out. I never saw one stone that tempted me. Of course my experience is old news and the place has cleaned up and is seeing an influx of tourists. But, I truly believe government protection and foreign investment over these mines have shut the proverbial door to discover hidden gems at bargain prices where the stones originate. Like gold and other precious metals, there is a world retail price for gems. You may pay more in an expensive country (Switzerland) and a little less (India). But you are not going to find a steal. You really have to know what you are doing and have a trusted expert at your side or you are really not going to get a deal on a genuine stone without treatments. Good luck, I can't wait to hear about your experience. Myanmar is a wonderful country with beautiful sights. I bought a few pretty pieces of carved MOB and lacquerware which I love.

 

[treasurehunter]

If you don't know exactly what each ruby is worth you will lose money and even if you know the value at what you should buy it at you will have to negotiate to that price which as most say is impossible in burma

 

[keemoog99]

Contact Asian Institute for Gemological Sciences at the Jewelry Trade Center. They have several teachers there who are very experienced in buying rubies. In fact, they could probably get you what you're looking for and you don't have to travel to Myanmar. The AIG lab is there too so you can get it tested.

 

[keemoog99]

They are in Bangkok on Silom, I believe next to the Holiday Inn Crown Plaza.

 

[keemoog99]

In 2012 while attending colored stone pricing and grading at AIGS, my teacher had three, 3 carat cushion rubies he was evaluating for a client. Heat only from Burma, I believe they were 31,000 dollars a carat. I wouldn't touch them for fear of dropping one.

 

[VapidLapid]

I have to say, don't go. Please spend the next five years learning not only all about corundum, rubies especially, but also the jewelry market, the wholesale v. the speculative gemstone market v. the retail market. Definitely get your graduate gemologist degree first. Then take a vacation. Consider the real needs of your spouse and or children, even if you do not have them now. After you have provided for them, and/or yourself as an older gent, consider what sorts of investments you will be proud to have made, not only for your return, but also for their contribution to society. Ask yourself what the nutritional content of a one carat, heated, glass filled, diffused ruby is.

Can I put you down for a dozen?

 

[lawnmower79]

Wow, looks like I'm way behind the 8-ball on this. To be honest, the only homework I've done to date is look at a few websites, including pictures of what inclusions look like under a microscope. I've never held a loupe in my hand before.
I just read some recommendations saying that there are less chances of finding fakes in the Myanmar Gem Museum so I thought I'd give it a shot with the help of a local expert and certificates from reputable labs. I thought comprehensive certificates would tell you pretty much all you need without becoming an expert. I never imagined learning to become an expert myself, but from what you guys are saying, in order to get a good deal I need to go down this path right?
The reason I chose Myanmar is because I have more trust in their people from what I've read. The people in that country sounds much more honest than people in Thailand. However, it might be a different story when it comes to gems. Curious to hear what people with experience in Myanmar think on this.

 

[Marlow]

First : You will be a magnet for fakes, synthetics and low qualities course they know how to play this game.

Second: You need a lot of time and good connections and simply a lot of luck to SEE a good ruby - whether you can buy it is another question.

And last:
In this forum are a lot of people with a lot of experience and enough money to buy nice gems. If it is so easy to buy wonderful rubies in Myanmar or top emerald in Kolumbia why should they buy from vendors in Europe or USA?

Save your money - you will have no chance to buy top rubies - maybe you get some lower qualities you can't sell or glassfilled rubies.
They fake gems AND certificates.

 

[Edward Bristol]

Burma is a magic place. Go and see the Pagoda. I moved me to tears.

But stay away from rubies.

 

[lawnmower79]

Thanks Marlow for your concern, I was hoping to buy good rubies but in the range of 1.00 to 1.50 carats only. Because of that size, I was hoping they wouldn't be considered a "top" gem and hopefully it will be easier to find/buy one.
I am aware of my lack of experience and expertise so that's why I wanted to ask whether it is possible to hire independent gem experts in Myanmar to come shopping with me. Also this might be my bias but I have more faith in sellers from Myanmar compared to countries like Thailand or Cambodia, what do you think?
If I ever do buy one, I will get certificates from good independent labs so hopefully they will be more reliable.

Yeah Edward I would love to visit Burma for a holiday even if I don't end up buying a ruby, it looks like an amazing place!

 

[Marlow]

Sorry, but you get advice after advice and you still don't understand that this is a silly idea.

You ask again and again. Maybe the people in Myanmar are poor - but they don't wait for a western guy with some money to sell them top quality rubies or other gems. And there is no expert who waits for you to help you buying top gems - HE would buy and sell them! Otherwise he is an idiot and not an expert.

A 2 ct untreated top ruby - do you really think they have to WAIT for somebody to sell it???? They decide whether they sell it and who will get it. And there are enough professionals waiting for this.

 

[JewelFreak]

I don't know where you heard that the Burmese are more honest than Thais or anyone else. You run into good & bad everywhere, and anywhere people are poor, they'll naturally try to make money however they can -- which, in this situation, is at the expense of naive visitors practically asking to be taken for a ride.

Honestly, as written above, you won''t find a hidden bargain in Myanmar. That does not happen often even to experts in the gem trade. If you did manage to hire somebody to guide you, you have no more guarantee that he would be honest than if you went alone -- you'd just get ripped off from 2 directions. Save your money.

 

[Marlow]

Exactly!

The "expert" is a brother, cousin or friend of the vendor.....!!

 

[Tariq wali]

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g294190-i9408-k5253523-Buying_Rubies_in_Myanmar-Myanmar.html


http://buygemstone.info

 

[lawnmower79]

Ok I guess you guys convinced me not to buy any serious rubies in Myanmar.

Which country would you recommend then, if you wanted to buy an untreated Mogok ruby? (Excluding online shops)
I'm talking about going there in person to see the actual stone

 

[Roger Dery]

Ok I guess you guys convinced me not to buy any serious rubies in Myanmar. Which country would you recommend then, if you wanted to buy an untreated Mogok ruby? (Excluding online shops) I'm talking about going there in person to see the actual stone

Hi lawnmower79,
If you are located in the US, there are currently restrictions in place to block the importation of Ruby from Myanmar (Burma). Here's the link to the original bill proposed by Tom Lantos.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Documents/pl110_286_jade_act.pdf
And then here's further info from the American Gem Trade Association.
http://www.multibriefs.com/briefs/agta/burma.htm

There are fine Rubies available from several other countries as well as Burma. However, going on location to buy in person (as a novice) is not a great idea. I've been buying from overseas locations (in person) since 1981 - and I still must take serious precautions. I'm sorry to say, and no disrespect intended, but what you are proposing is foolish.

 

[Roger Dery]

lawnmower79,
After re-reading some of the posts upthread, and realizing that what you want to purchase may be into the thousands, you should also be aware that you are allowed to "self-import" goods up to US $2,500. If bringing in a value above $2500, you must contract with a US based Customshouse Brokerage firm at the point of entry. And, generally speaking, you would also need someone from the host country (on the supplier side) to produce the Commercial Invoice to allow the importation to transpire.

Hope you find this helpful.

 

[lawnmower79]

Thanks Roger, I'm actually based in Australia so none of the restrictions you mentioned apply to me
I checked our customs website, we don't have any limits here from Burma and no limits on the dollar value of the items (excluding cash) that we bring inside Australia. The sky's the limit

 

[chrono]

Hello, I'm considering planning a trip to Myanmar and buying an unheated Mogok ruby from the Gem Museum in Yangon. I've got a few questions for anyone who's actually been there before:

- Is it possible to hire an gem expert or a local to shop gems with you? If so, how much do they cost? Can you trust them?
- Is it better to pay in USD or kyats when you buy rubies?
- What are the retail prices for an untreated mogok ruby of size around 1 carat with excellent color and quality (good cut, few inclusions apart from silk, no chips on the side)? How about 1.3 carat, 1.5 carat or 2 carat? Realistically, what price can you bargain them down to?
- How long does it take for Stalwarts to do a gem appraisal?
- Is Mogok a better place to buy high quality (cut and polished) rubies?

I've been also considering buying rubies in Thailand as well, but it appears to be more risky in terms of landing a fake there. Are their markets trustworthy enough to buy from? Price-wise, how do they compare to Myanmar?

Any answers would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

This is extremely rare, even around the 1 carat range and if you pay anything less than $10K, I would question whether the ruby is truly top colour and untreated. Given the rarity factor,
1. Do you really believe that such stones are "sitting around" in Burma, instead of being sold elsewhere?
2. Are you truly willing to risk at least $10K, with possibly ZERO chance of return/refund?
3. Do you know what you are doing (assessing the colour, cut, clarity, and other qualities)?

The closer you are to the source, the greater the risk/chance of fakes. All the good stones have already moved.

 

[Marlow]

Hey Chrono,

do you know this book?

http://www.amazon.de/Mogok-Myanmar-schönsten-Rubinen-Saphiren/dp/3921656605

This is the homepage of Mr. Schlussel:

http://www.pillarandstone.com/c_sapphires.html

The book is in german but the pics are worth the money - and you will get ruby-fever!!!

 

[chrono]

The book is pure evil because it causes ruby fever, for which there is no cure unless you have $500K to spare for the antidote.

 

[Marlow]

Yes- it makes you sad.....

Kaplan ruby, Rockefeller Sapphire - Blue Mystery.....

My bank account

Pure evil - YES!!!!

 

[lawnmower79]

The closer you are to the source, the greater the risk/chance of fakes. All the good stones have already moved.

Yeah I've heard this sentence being thrown around but I was still half-doubtful on this.
I think from what I've read, the problem in Myanmar now is not the lack of buyers but the quality of the cuts, which I hear they're pretty rough there.
If what you say is true, my plan B is probably to go to the Jewelry Trade Center in Bangkok instead.
I know the basics of what to look for - traffic light red, silk inclusions, lack of round bubbles indicating treatment, brilliant cut etc. but even then I still think I would need the help of lab testing to confirm these.
What I fear most in a foreign country is to be denied a refund even though they state they are happy to offer one before the purchase. If they say "oh you've changed the ruby around with a fake one after you bought it" then technically speaking they've got grounds to deny you the refund right? It's your word against theirs, how do you combat this problem?

 

[cm366]

I know the basics of what to look for - traffic light red, silk inclusions, lack of round bubbles indicating treatment, brilliant cut etc. but even then I still think I would need the help of lab testing to confirm these.
What I fear most in a foreign country is to be denied a refund even though they state they are happy to offer one before the purchase. If they say "oh you've changed the ruby around with a fake one after you bought it" then technically speaking they've got grounds to deny you the refund right? It's your word against theirs, how do you combat this problem?

The guys who've spent a lifetime selling fakes to tourists looking for a 'deal' will be THRILLED to hear you "know the basics".

You combat this problem by NOT buying expensive gems from people you don't know, in a city you don't know, where there's no such thing as a return policy and you have no surety at all. Anyone who's happy to sell you a fake and swear it's untreated will also be happy to keep your money and swear that they've never seen you before in their lives. The lab report won't help you after money changes hands, or if the lab you decide on is owned by the seller's cousin, or if the police station where you file a report is funded in part by contributions from solid citizens like the dealer who scammed you.

 

[lawnmower79]

I know the basics of what to look for - traffic light red, silk inclusions, lack of round bubbles indicating treatment, brilliant cut etc. but even then I still think I would need the help of lab testing to confirm these.
What I fear most in a foreign country is to be denied a refund even though they state they are happy to offer one before the purchase. If they say "oh you've changed the ruby around with a fake one after you bought it" then technically speaking they've got grounds to deny you the refund right? It's your word against theirs, how do you combat this problem?

The guys who've spent a lifetime selling fakes to tourists looking for a 'deal' will be THRILLED to hear you "know the basics".

You combat this problem by NOT buying expensive gems from people you don't know, in a city you don't know, where there's no such thing as a return policy and you have no surety at all. Anyone who's happy to sell you a fake and swear it's untreated will also be happy to keep your money and swear that they've never seen you before in their lives. The lab report won't help you after money changes hands, or if the lab you decide on is owned by the seller's cousin, or if the police station where you file a report is funded in part by contributions from solid citizens like the dealer who scammed you.

So where DO you buy expensive gems then? I've heard a lot of "don'ts" in this thread, but not a lot of "do's", apart from getting a qualification in gemmology and studying gems for years. I'm sure many tourists who buy expensive gems out there don't go through all that, yet they still manage to buy properly. Are you saying most of the gems these rich people bought are fakes as well?
There must be a way for non-experts out there to buy, and that's what I'm looking for.

 

[Marlow]

I have sources where I can get "expensive" gem a bit cheaper.

You need a few years experience, have to educate yourself, make mistakes and need some good connections.