identify stone Jewler switched my Tanzanite with

[chrono]

Without being able to see the stone before and after the work was done, all of us can only speculate. Things that you can do to verify:
1. Bring the stone in to a gemmologist to verify that the stone IS a tanzanite
2. Take exact measurements (LxWxD) to verify before versus after, if you have the before mm size information
3. If you know your stone well, you can loupe the stone for telltale inclusions that you know was in the old tanzanite and also compare the facet pattern.

Before I drop off my stones with any jeweller/bench, I make sure I know the exact measurements, make note of magnified inclusions and take a good magnified picture to show the facet pattern of the stone. Most benches I work with will not do any less; this protects both of us (stone switching, stone damages, etc).

 

[GirlTropix]

The before and after are shown above. First stone was a brilliant pinkish purple that matched the same shade in the opal. Second stone is dark navy blue. I dont need to loupe the stone to see that difference!

 

[chrono]

The before and after are shown above. First stone was a brilliant pinkish purple that matched the same shade in the opal. Second stone is dark navy blue. I dont need to loupe the stone to see that difference!

Right now, it is your word against his word. If you want to accuse anyone of anything, you need proof to back it up, meaning testing and solid repeatable facts (not just purple vs blue) such as RI, inclusions, facet pattern, etc.

 

[pregcurious]

I agree with Chrono. You can have an independent appraiser identify the stone, but that will be expensive. Martin Fuller is a expert on colored stones, and is in the DC area, but it will cost >$150 to get a full appraisal from him. (I last required his services 4 years ago and do not know his current prices.)

 

[deskjockey]

The before and after are shown above. First stone was a brilliant pinkish purple that matched the same shade in the opal. Second stone is dark navy blue. I dont need to loupe the stone to see that difference!

Thing is, we can't see that much in the photos you posted. Without clear photos showing the gemstone before and after (from a straight-on angle) you can't compare the facet pattern or size/shape. From my perspective, from just looking at these photos, I honestly don't see much of a difference that can't be explained by cleaning (both for the stone and the metal), different lighting in the photos, different photo angles, etc. I'm not saying you don't see that in person, but if you want a definitive answer as to what happened, you need the specs on the original stone, new measurements of the stone in the ring, and someone to test and make sure it's still a tanzanite. I will say the cut looks like it may be different, but again, without pictures taken in very similar light from a straight-on angle, can't say.

 

[FrekeChild]

The before and after are shown above. First stone was a brilliant pinkish purple that matched the same shade in the opal. Second stone is dark navy blue. I dont need to loupe the stone to see that difference!

Thing is, we can't see that much in the photos you posted. Without clear photos showing the gemstone before and after (from a straight-on angle) you can't compare the facet pattern or size/shape. From my perspective, from just looking at these photos, I honestly don't see much of a difference that can't be explained by cleaning (both for the stone and the metal), different lighting in the photos, different photo angles, etc. I'm not saying you don't see that in person, but if you want a definitive answer as to what happened, you need the specs on the original stone, new measurements of the stone in the ring, and someone to test and make sure it's still a tanzanite. I will say the cut looks like it may be different, but again, without pictures taken in very similar light from a straight-on angle, can't say.

Agreed with this.

Also, there are several rings similar to this on ebay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=tanzanite+opal+kabana+ring&_sop=16

 

[FrekeChild]

He's the one who said to set the price at $2750. I thought more like $2300. That's what similar yet smaller of that type of ring are selling for. And generally speaking- they are hard to find at all now. I expect him to pay what I would have gotten for it with the purple stone in place- because that's what he took away from me. He made it so I couldn't get as much. He says the stone is just as nice than he can sell it for the $2750 out of his jewelry store right? I dont owe him any favors- he ruined my ring then lied about it.
Buying it off me is the right thing to do. It's easier than changing the stone again.

It was given to me by an a-hole x boyfriend to kiss up after cheating for the millionth time- meaning I have no emotional attachment to it. Because of who it was from- my daughter doesn't want it passed down to her either -plus she has very tiny hands- too small for a ring like that.

Does it matter what the center stone is at this point? I just don't like it at all. He should have used a lighter shade. It only shows any color at all if light is hitting it. The old stone was beautiful in any light. And the stone is crooked in the setting! Its all just so disappointing.

Also, to the bold, I disagree. As other posters have pointed out, its your word vs his, and lets face it, this is an inexpensive stone. It'd be a LOT easier and much cheaper for him to switch out the stone than to buy the ring from you. He's not going to offer you $2,750. Plain and simple.

Yes, it matters what the center stone is. This is a person's business and reputation you're talking about! I'm not at all convinced that he switched out the stone. The v prong does not look any different, neither does the semi-bezel. And knowing what I do about jewelers and gemstones, it's not cost effective for him to switch out your stone or to lie about it. He has absolutely nothing to gain from this situation at all. There is a big difference between "I think the jeweler may have switched out my stone. Can you help me figure out if he did or not?" and "This jeweler switched out my stone! I'm calling the cops!"

So, I'd advise you to get some concrete proof before you start throwing around more accusations. At this point, you have named the jeweler, and you have nothing that proves what you say is true, except for a couple photographs of your ring with the stone being two slightly different colors, but tanzanite is a stone that typically shifts color from blue-purple depending on the light source, so your pictures do not prove anything.

I'd recommend you get another jeweler/gemologist's opinion on the stone, and research "libel" before continuing to post.

 

[maccers]

Does the facetting look the same on the stones? I can't tell from the pictures.

 

[cflutist]

but tanzanite is a stone that typically shifts color from blue-purple depending on the light source, so your pictures do not prove anything.

I'd recommend you get another jeweler/gemologist's opinion on the stone, and research "libel" before continuing to post.

Not only that, tanzanite (zoisite) shows strong pleochroism and can appear with different hues when viewed from different angles in the same light. This can be seen by using a dichroscope which will split out the colors. RI (refractive index) is 1.691 - 1.700 which can be verified by using a refractometer. As others have said, we can't speculate as to what it could or could not be by viewing on a computer monitor/tablet/ or phone.

 

[distracts]

The before and after are shown above. First stone was a brilliant pinkish purple that matched the same shade in the opal. Second stone is dark navy blue. I dont need to loupe the stone to see that difference!

Thing is, we can't see that much in the photos you posted. Without clear photos showing the gemstone before and after (from a straight-on angle) you can't compare the facet pattern or size/shape. From my perspective, from just looking at these photos, I honestly don't see much of a difference that can't be explained by cleaning (both for the stone and the metal), different lighting in the photos, different photo angles, etc. I'm not saying you don't see that in person, but if you want a definitive answer as to what happened, you need the specs on the original stone, new measurements of the stone in the ring, and someone to test and make sure it's still a tanzanite. I will say the cut looks like it may be different, but again, without pictures taken in very similar light from a straight-on angle, can't say.

Agreed. I'm not convinced that the stones aren't the same. The pictures aren't persuasive. I photograph my own gems a lot and can easily make them look that different.

It would be one thing if you were going to keep the ring, but since your intent is to sell the ring, I'm not sure how it matters. I sincerely doubt it has affected the appeal to potential buyers or the value. IF anything even is different.

 

[distracts]

Also, there are several rings similar to this on ebay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=tanzanite+opal+kabana+ring&_sop=16

The closest "sold" listing I could find on ebay was this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sellout-COST-NEW-KABANA-14K-AAA-Opal-Tri-Tanzanite-amp-Diamond-Ring-Sz-5-75-/181384944110?pt=US_Fine_Rings&hash=item2a3b6299ee&nma=true&si=wIxljf7PEb0%252BKe7AZZSGrIFN53Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Note the price drop.

 

[GirlTropix]

I can't believe you guys are sitting here splitting hairs about this. I didn't ask if you thought it was switched- I know it was. There was no heat near it- it was way down on the ban that needed BUFFING out- no alteration requiring heat. The stone didn't change color from cleaning either- as I said above the ring was new- worn twice for 1 hour. I understand if a stone is real dirty there can be some change- but it wasn't dirty.

How's this camera angle- without light shining thru it - it looks black!

 

[maccers]

Also, there are several rings similar to this on ebay right now:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=tanzanite+opal+kabana+ring&_sop=16

The closest "sold" listing I could find on ebay was this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sellout-COST-NEW-KABANA-14K-AAA-Opal-Tri-Tanzanite-amp-Diamond-Ring-Sz-5-75-/181384944110?pt=US_Fine_Rings&hash=item2a3b6299ee&nma=true&si=wIxljf7PEb0%252BKe7AZZSGrIFN53Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Note the price drop.

Nice find, distracts

 

[GirlTropix]

Thanks for all your opinions. I'm ending this thread now.

 

[FrekeChild]

I can't believe you guys are sitting here splitting hairs about this. I didn't ask if you thought it was switched- I know it was. There was no heat near it- it was way down on the ban that needed BUFFING out- no alteration requiring heat. The stone didn't change color from cleaning either- as I said above the ring was new- worn twice for 1 hour. I understand if a stone is real dirty there can be some change- but it wasn't dirty.

How's this camera angle- without light shining thru it - it looks black!

Depending on the lighting, all stones can look black! Even diamonds. You aren't bolstering your case.

And if you wore it for an hour total, I very much wonder how well you know this stone!

 

[Marlow]

by GirlTropix » 23 Jun 2014 15:51
Thanks for all your opinions. I'm ending this thread now.


QED!!

 

[distracts]

It's not splitting hairs - if you can't prove to US it was switched, why do you think you can convince the cops? If the jeweler lied to you about it - which he would have had no good reason to do - why do you think you can convince him he didn't make it right? We're not saying definitively that the stone was not switched, just that nothing you have shown proves it. And if you can't prove it happened... I'm not sure what you think the point of arguing is?

 

[txgreeneyes]

You have been given great advice here. I'd listen.

We can't identify the stone. Your title says "Identify stone jewler switched my tanzanite with".

We suggested you take it to another jewelry store and see if they can identify it.

I wouldn't try to sell it until you find out exactly what that stone is.

Good luck!

 

[distracts]

Here is a tanzanite of mine. All of these pictures were taken in the same room, within a minute of each other. I didn't even get fancy and take pictures in other rooms, in direct sunlight, in different types of lights, or at different times of the day. The stone never left my hand during this sequence of photos. So you can see why we're not convinced by the pictures.



We are not trying to give you a hard time. Just advice. And our advice is calm down, check what the stone is, proceed with selling the ring as planned. There is nothing to get so upset about. Should you ask the jeweler about it again? Sure. But you already did once and they claimed it was the same stone. Ask them calmly if maybe something happened to the other stone and they made a good faith attempt to replace it. Don't demand anything or get mad or they'll dismiss you as an impossible-to-deal-with customer.

 

[makeable]

I can't believe you guys are sitting here splitting hairs about this. I didn't ask if you thought it was switched- I know it was. There was no heat near it- it was way down on the ban that needed BUFFING out- no alteration requiring heat. The stone didn't change color from cleaning either- as I said above the ring was new- worn twice for 1 hour. I understand if a stone is real dirty there can be some change- but it wasn't dirty.

How's this camera angle- without light shining thru it - it looks black!

Perhaps it looks black because the background is black.

Tanzanite is pleochroic meaning it can show different colors when viewed in different (crystal) directions. I think distracts gave you a very good example of tanzanite's ability to show more of a blue hue or more violet hue.

You say you've only worn it twice. Could it be you don't recall the characteristics of your tanzanite as well as you thought? Sometimes I will take out a ring I haven't worn in a while and the color will seem more (or less) vibrant than I remembered.

Anyway I hope you find a solution. Good luck to you.

 

[Michael_E]

One of the problems with this thread is that it to get a new stone into that setting AND make it look so much like the first version is almost impossible. It could be done with a laser welder and some really good pictures of what it looked like previously, but it just couldn;t be done with normal shop tools. If the stone was switched purposely, then the stone would have had to be cut out of that setting, leaving areas needing repair, (which could not be done with a torch due to the opal). If the stone was damaged and subsequently broken up in order to remove it, one would still need to bend back the front chevron in order to get the new stone into the setting. In my experience this almost always results in that chevron being mangled and needing repair. In looking at the "before and after" images that front chevron looks identical to me, right down to the little off center area where the tip was cut slightly off. My opinion is that the metal work on this ring has not been worked on, ( at least not by any mere mortal jeweler and not without a laser welder), and so the stone could not have been replaced.

This reminds me of a woman who told me about a beautiful opal that she'd purchased in Mexico and when she got home she unwrapped it and it had no fire. Angry at being taken advantage of, she threw it out in the trash and came into the retail shop that I had at the time complaining about those lying devils who'd sold her such a piece of junk. I asked what kind of lights she had in her house when she was unwrapping it and she said, "Oh, typical fluorescent lights in the kitchen". I told her to go try and find her ring and bring it into the shop where I had single point lights all over the place, (typical jewelry store lighting). She did and voila, the fire came back! A stone and it's color are just half of the equation. The light that the stone is being viewed under makes up the other half and it's almost invisible since most people's focus is on the stone.

 

[eastjavaman]

I know we have plenty of stones and pictures experts here, but any lawyers here to check whether she has a case?

 

[T L]

The light that the stone is being viewed under makes up the other half and it's almost invisible since most people's focus is on the stone.

I don't want to get involved in the arguments here, but I think you make a very important point that when viewing a gem for purchase, you really need to get away from those fancy jewelers lights. They make everything look great, and they drive me nuts!!! I know when I purchase a gem from a store or online, I ask the vendor if I can take it under different lighting, or get a photo under various light sources. One of my favorite gems that I ever acquired was from Intergem. The vendor kindly let me take it outside, and it looked gorgeous there too, so I had made my decision to purchase.

 

[FrekeChild]

I know we have plenty of stones and pictures experts here, but any lawyers here to check whether she has a case?

Lol. I'm not a lawyer (was raised by one and have worked for many), suing in small claims court would waste a lot of time, effort and money on a stone that is likely worth $100.

Disregarding that:
1. There is no paperwork (that we've heard of) stating what the stone is, it's measurements, shape, coloration, etc. No lab certifications, no lab reports, no appraisals, likely no receipts since it was a gift. That means no proof.

2. These pictures she has posted don't prove anything. As distracts so nicely showed us, tanzanite can look incredibly different depending on the light source and it's direction in relation to the stone, as well as time of day, etc etc etc. The pictures posted so far have been not very good quality and don't show the cut quality, faceting or color of the stone.

3. This is all his word vs. hers. Considering the worth of the item in question, benefit of the doubt would go to him because as the court is meant to do, all accused are innocent until proven guilty. It is likely that he has surveillance cameras up in his shop. He likely has a work order for the work being done, and I'm sure that there are other employees in the shop as well. So actual evidence would probably stack up in his favor.

IMHO, no attorney worth their salt would take any kind of case like this, and no judge would rule in her favor. *Case* is being tossed around lightly here because I think the idea of a jeweler risking his reputation on a $100 gem is laughable at best.

 

[cm366]

I know we have plenty of stones and pictures experts here, but any lawyers here to check whether she has a case?

For that you need a different kind of Forum

 

[the_mother_thing]

Please tell me what you think. I think everyone would agree its a different stone now right?

Not sure if it's a tilt window I am seeing, but both the before & after pics appear to have the same dark center/tilt window action going on. It really looks like the same stone to me, just "behaving" differently. :/

ETA: FWIW, I also happen to think the more blue color plays much more nicely with the opal than purple.

 

[deskjockey]

I can't believe you guys are sitting here splitting hairs about this. I didn't ask if you thought it was switched- I know it was.

Actually, you asked us to "identify the stone" that the jeweler "switched" your tanzanite with.

What everyone here pointed out was that 1) we cannot ID a stone from pictures, you need to take it to someone with the proper equipment, and 2) from the photos you posted, it doesn't look like it was necessarily switched. You "know" it was, but haven't given us anything to really show that (while at the same time mentioning you barely ever wore the ring so how much time have you spent getting to know the stone?). That is relevent in the discussion since you are apparently willing to smudge someone's reputation over it.

Basically, the crux of all the posts on this thread is that you must take it in to someone to test/identify, etc. Getting mad at us for pointing this out doesn't get you anywhere. Asking for advice and then getting angry when you don't hear what you want to hear isn't exactly a way to win your case, and I suspect that should you go to the police you will likely hear the exact same thing. Without proper pictures before/after of the stone, where you can see the faceting and characteristics under the same lighting conditions and at the same exact angles, you can't prove anything. Without going to someone and having the stone tested, you also can't prove anything. Don't shoot the messengers.

 

[Logan Sapphire]

I agree with Chrono. You can have an independent appraiser identify the stone, but that will be expensive. Martin Fuller is a expert on colored stones, and is in the DC area, but it will cost >$150 to get a full appraisal from him. (I last required his services 4 years ago and do not know his current prices.)

I just had an appraisal done a couple of weeks ago and I believe his hourly rate is $250.

 

[pregcurious]

I agree with Chrono. You can have an independent appraiser identify the stone, but that will be expensive. Martin Fuller is a expert on colored stones, and is in the DC area, but it will cost >$150 to get a full appraisal from him. (I last required his services 4 years ago and do not know his current prices.)

I just had an appraisal done a couple of weeks ago and I believe his hourly rate is $250.

Thanks, Logan Sapphire. He's great, isn't he? I learned so much having him appraise my stone.

 

[MrsCornishWed]

I'm just gonna say it: this whole thread is crackers.


OP, I'm appalled that you have named and shamed the store with no solid proof. Bad form imo. You've been given a lot of great advice here and to save yourself further stress, I'd suggest you take it.