Value of chipped OEC? (pics)

[klokkeblomst]

I'm in the process of buying a 1.4 carat SI2 OEC for $3000. It was set in a 6-prong setting, and I expressed concern to the jeweler that I didn't know what the condition was under the prongs. He "guaranteed" me that there was no chip in the diamond. He said that with his microscope he would have seen light refraction from a chip even if it was hidden under a prong.

However, now that it is out of the prong setting, it is clear from pictures that there is a chip. I can't really see it with my bare eye, it just looks like part of the overall asymmetrical wonkiness that OECs have.

It is currently at the appraiser and I am waiting to hear back on what they say as far as condition and valuation. I am planning to bezel the diamond, so I don't think the chip will show, and it should be protected from further chipping. But I don't want to get ripped off either. The jeweler told me to "relax" when I asked him questions about structural integrity, which of course just made me more worried.

Is $3000 still an okay deal?

The diamond unset


Zoomed in - the chip is at 9 o'clock


On a black background


A picture in the old setting- you can see the wonkiness, but I think the chip is under the slightly contorted prong at 4 o'clock

 

[Gypsy]

You sent it to an appraiser. Let them decide if it's an okay deal or not. We are not equipped to tell you that, and the appraiser is since the presumably have the stone.

If the appraiser says it IS an okay deal and you go through it. I personally would send it for a spa visit to Brian Gavin. Have them polish out the chip and polish the facets for you. That will clean up the issues and also make the stone shinier.

As for any jeweler that says "trust me" after you find out he's been less than truthful. No I would not trust them again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

 

[klokkeblomst]

Thanks, Gypsy. I was mostly looking for a reality check, like if the diamond had decreased in value exponentially because of the chip. I'll try and be patient and wait for the appraisal. I know the OECs often have chips, and I can't tell if I have a distorted perception of the chip from these super zoomed pictures.

Out of curiosity, is the comment about being able to see a chip hidden under a prong through the light refraction under a microscope true? It rang some BS alarms for me...and it seems I was correct. Just curious to know definitively if there is some truth in that and there could have been honest mistake, or if it was a total fabrication.

 

[Diamond_Hawk]

Out of curiosity, is the comment about being able to see a chip hidden under a prong through the light refraction under a microscope true? It rang some BS alarms for me...and it seems I was correct. Just curious to know definitively if there is some truth in that and there could have been honest mistake, or if it was a total fabrication.

Because the majority of light return in any diamond is reflected light from either a direct or indirect source (the other portion being straight-through leakage) any anomaly that the jeweler would see through a microscope could be either a direct or indirect anomaly.

The beauty of the brilliance and scintillation of a stone is the light reflecting, refracting, and splitting through the actual facets as well as the many 'virtual' facets that are created. This is the premise that the ASET viewer and the H&A viewer use to determine light return and cut proportions - the presence of the virtual facets creates the Arrows that you see in a MRB.

I say all that to say this; For the jeweler to say, with certainty, that anomalies he sees in light performance are caused by (or not caused by) the chip in the side of the diamond would mean he is able to decide which light-beam particles were being affected by the chip. While I might trust a computer simulation to generate the probability of this accurately, I would NOT think anyone observing the diamond could give you a conclusive judgement about the chip's effect on light performance.

 

[Gypsy]

I don't know if that is true. I don't have enough experience to know that.

BUT, I can tell you it sets off my BS meter too. Because I have HAD an OEC that had a chip under the prong, and when I sent it a PS dealer, SET, he told me he couldn't tell if there way anything. And had to unset it to tell. But at the same time, it could be the way the prongs on mine were.


SO I can't say that it's total BS. But I can say that I am glad you sent it to an appraiser and are also that you are keeping in mind that the jeweler is self interested and those interests may not align with yours.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I can't see the chip in those images. If it is very small then it might be typical of most old cuts -- it is almost impossible to find one on the estate market without some types of damage on the girdle, and if the girdle is clean, then often the stone has been to the "spa" as gypsy said. Most vendors clean up the girdle prior to sale I think.

Wait to see what the appraiser says and go from there. But a small chip that is on the girdle and only evident with a loupe or on very close inspection is not a deal breaker to me.

That said, I don't like the vibe from the vendor. While I might still buy from him given the right assurances from a trusted independent appraiser who is expert in old cuts -- I hope yours is this type if appraiser -- I would not work with him further on a setting etc.

 

[treasurehunter]

many old cuts have chips it obviously affects the price depending on the visibility face up but little affect on old cut prices if no durability or face up affects are noticed.

 

[Lorelei]

Out of curiosity, is the comment about being able to see a chip hidden under a prong through the light refraction under a microscope true? It rang some BS alarms for me...and it seems I was correct. Just curious to know definitively if there is some truth in that and there could have been honest mistake, or if it was a total fabrication.

Because the majority of light return in any diamond is reflected light from either a direct or indirect source (the other portion being straight-through leakage) any anomaly that the jeweler would see through a microscope could be either a direct or indirect anomaly.

The beauty of the brilliance and scintillation of a stone is the light reflecting, refracting, and splitting through the actual facets as well as the many 'virtual' facets that are created. This is the premise that the ASET viewer and the H&A viewer use to determine light return and cut proportions - the presence of the virtual facets creates the Arrows that you see in a MRB.

I say all that to say this; For the jeweler to say, with certainty, that anomalies he sees in light performance are caused by (or not caused by) the chip in the side of the diamond would mean he is able to decide which light-beam particles were being affected by the chip. While I might trust a computer simulation to generate the probability of this accurately, I would NOT think anyone observing the diamond could give you a conclusive judgement about the chip's effect on light performance.

Well said Hawk and thanks for that detailed explanation!

I think you are doing the right thing klokke by having an appraiser inspect the stone, I would also be leery of being told to ' relax', although they might genuinely have been trying to be reassuring and as previously mentioned, many old cuts do have dings, it's still the best thing to get a third party's opinion before you close the deal. Lovely rock by the way, let us know what happens.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

If he's "guaranteed" that there isn't a chip and that's not correct per your appraisal then I'd either consider returning it or asking for some money back.

 

[klokkeblomst]

What amazing answers, thank you all SO MUCH!

To answer a few questions...unfortunately the setting has already been ordered. When I asked if the off-roundedness and chip would effect the ability of it to fit in the bezel, I was told that I "better cross my fingers" because it was non-returnable. I don't know why he ordered the setting when we hadn't appraised the diamond yet. I've felt really nervous since that conversation, which is part of why I started looking more closely at the pictures.

However, I have only paid a $500 deposit ($100 of which is for the appraisal) - at worst I could walk away and lose $400, which of course I would rather NOT do.

The $3000 price is what I negotiated (from $3300) when he said he didn't want to take it out of the setting until I had paid a deposit. I told him I wanted to pay less because I didn't know what was under the prongs. That was when I got the story about being able to see any chips through the microscope even when set.

I think I can refuse to buy the diamond if things look bad from the appraisal, because of his "guarantee". But I think I'm stuck with the setting (which I love) once it arrives - it's this one in unplated 18k white: http://www.stuller.com/products/122052/6078708/?groupId=118265

I just don't know if I can find another affordable stone I like big enough to fill the setting...So I AM crossing my fingers the appraisal turns out well!

 

[OECsareforLovers]

Hi Klokkeblomst,
It seems odd that he ordered the setting without your approval. You could see if he could cancel the order since you are not sure about the stone??? Is the stone eye clean?


Edit: make sure all "agreements" made with this seller are made in writing.

 

[klokkeblomst]

Yes, the stone is eye clean. I already asked him last week to cancel the order and he said it was too late. :/

 

[LightBright]

Regarding the diamond, have you seen the stone in person? The chip is barely visible to me, magnified, but I can see it. It could be a natural, or a chip. A natural would not normally affect the structural integrity of a stone. The shape doesn't look that wonky to me.

What is the color of the stone? I looks quite warm to me, which will definitely impact value. If it appeals to you it might be a great option for $3,000. However, you should know if you like lower colored stones, and know what color this stone is before negotiating price.

I think the faceting of this stone is pretty nice. I'd like to see a profile shot, and clearer facet shots, but overall it looks good to me.

Clarity: Make sure the inclusions are not going to both you in the long run. SI2 stones can be variable in how they appear to the naked eye. This will impact value as well.

An independent appraiser can tell you the value of the stone, but it sounds like you are sending it to an appraiser affiliated with the shop. Red flag if that is true. I wouldn't accept or pay for an appraisal that comes from an appraiser chosen by the shop. And $100 sounds high for a simple appraisal.

All this aside, your jeweler sounds like he is trying to intimidate you. If he ordered the Stuller setting without telling you what he was doing, and without telling you it was non-returnable, that is pretty bad. Does anyone on PS know for sure if Stuller will not accept returns on stock items?

The jeweler is also making intimidating comments, and has told you at least one lie. I dunno. I guess if I were you I would try my hand at Ebay rather than deal with this person.

 

[klokkeblomst]

Yes, I've seen the diamond. I took all of the pictures you see. It's estimated as an M, but I don't really care how accurate that is. It's a golden vanilla color in person with a ton of fire and I love it. It ranges in diameter from 7.19 to 7.38, which is (does math) 1.02 l/w ratio - you're right, that is pretty round.

The jeweler did tell me the setting was not returnable, and he told me what day he was going to order it - but he also said he would have the appraisal done that same day. When I didn't get the appraisal back I started asking questions. I still haven't gotten the appraisal. I know my husband called and asked for something to be engraved in the ring, and maybe that was the trigger for the order being placed, as I'm not sure what was said.

It is not being appraised in-house, and I absolutely trust the appraiser that has been chosen. The jeweler is sending it to the appraiser because I haven't actually bought the stone yet, and it stays on his insurance if it's in his possession. The appraisers rates are on their website - and they do charge $100 for a full appraisal. They are not affiliated with this jeweler in any way. So that part is not setting off any alarms for me. I do wonder if I need to contact the appraiser myself to get an ETA on when the appraisal will be done - they are supposed to do same-day service.

I think the jeweler may be ticked that the stone ended up being 1.4 when it came out of the setting instead of the 1.3 he thought he was selling me. I'm not sure. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Dreamer_D]

If he hires the appraiser then the appraiser is working for him and not you. So you should consider paying and contracting the appraiser directly. The person who pays and contracts the appraiser has nothing to do with who owns the stone or ships the stone. The cut on the diamond looks pretty good to me, so the question is color and clarity. The price is quite good for the weight, which is known, but it is less good if the stone is ST color for example.

 

[Sunstorm]

Hi OP, while the diamond does not look bad at all, quite pretty and the chip is barely visible, I am sorry but I really do not like the way this jeweler is treating you, no customer should be treated this way, you have been lied to and he is making very fishy and rude comments to you which makes me really doubt whether this is an ethical professional and where is the trust now? If you love the diamond that is great but I would be very afraid to let him do the setting if he makes comments like you better cross your fingers. This is one of the worst I have ever heard. My jeweler has never, not once, damaged a diamond in his 45 years of career and while it can happen if anything goes wrong an ethical professional should do everything in their power to make you happy. One time my stones were too large for the setting he made which took him days by hand, not the fault of either one of us as then I was buying from a wholesaler who sold us different size melee than what we asked for, but my jeweler made a completely new setting and never made me responsible. I worry and please keep us posted. I also worry about this appraisal being ordered by the jeweler. Hope this turns out well for you at the end as the stone is pretty and I would like you to have a good experience.

 

[OECsareforLovers]

Any updates OP?

 

[klokkeblomst]

Ovincze, thank you for your kind words. I really hope that I'm just being a worrier, and that any misunderstandings with the jeweler are not intentional on his part. At least my eyes are open much wider, although I'm sorry to say that this is the least amount of BS I've heard from any of my local jewelers - it's a jungle out there in brick & mortar land!

DreamerD - I hadn't thought that the results from the appraiser could be impacted by which person contracts them. I don't think there is anything I can do about it now, as this is the only appraiser I trust (and is pricescope listed) here. Do you really think that if I contracted the appraiser myself the results would be different? That sounds unethical to me. I will live and learn and never make that mistake again, though!

OECsareforlovers - nothing yet. My husband called earlier but the jeweler was with another customer. I'm hoping to learn more today, and will update when I can.

Thank you all so much for your kind advice!

 

[klokkeblomst]

Small update:

The stone came back from the appraiser. The information that came back was:

1.41 (bigger than original 1.3)
M (improvement from earlier M/N)
SI2 (same)
Faint Blue Florescence (new information)

There was nothing further measured and no value placed on the diamond yet. Apparently this was just to get the stats on the diamond so that they could appraise it more completely once it is set. I had misunderstood what this service was for, so that was my fault.

The jeweler invited me to call the appraiser and ask any questions that I have. He said that he specifically asked the appraiser about the chip (because I asked) and the appraiser said it did not appear to be problematic and did not change the clarity grade of the stone, just a typical tiny girdle chip on an OEC.

This lab does provide an option for a more thorough service, with a Sarin report and plot. I'm wondering if I should contract the appraisers directly to get that service done, but I don't know if it's just an additional cost I don't need. I'll probably call the appraiser tomorrow and go from there.

So, if the above information and stats are true and correct - do you think $3000 was a good deal for this diamond? We have a local specialty shop that features antique stones (in antique settings) and most of their M OECs in the 1.2 range go from 8-10k set. So to me this seems like a great deal, but I don't have much for reference.

 

[OECsareforLovers]

I think you should call the appraiser and have him give you his impression on the price (GemLab did my appraisal and they were able to look up wholesale and retail prices). I'd also want to know what the specs are on the stone so I could compare it to David's screening chart:

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/screening_chart_old_european_cut_diamonds

Edit: I couldn't find any exact comps for your stone via my usual methods (Old World Diamonds, JBG, Love Affair Diamonds), but OWD has a 1.35 M SI1 for $4,037.

 

[proto]

he guaranteed its not chipped, and its chipped.

he ordered a setting which he claims is non-refundable without your express consent

it sounds like he has instructed the appraiser, rather than you

I would get my deposit back and leave

 

[Sunstorm]

Hi OP, the problem is that we do not know in this case whether the appraiser was truly independent and objective since he was commissioned and instructed by the jeweler in whom I would have 0 trust at this point. It is very difficult to say about the price because the stone was not sent to GIA (correct? sorry if I forget), an objectibe and independent lab and thus we have no idea what the specs really are. It could be an ok price but the question is how badly the diamond is chipped and because it is an SI2 what clarity issues are going on with it (even if all the other specs are as stated). At this point I would highly recommend that you go with one of the trustworthy online vendors that the other posters are recommending and you get your stone there and you could even have them set your stone. Sorry but I worry because I do not believe there are so-called true deals, when something sounds too good to be true it usually is and this jeweler has only proven how untrustworthy he is and one I would not take my business to a rude and dishonest person, two I would really want to ensure you are getting what you are paying for.

 

[Sunstorm]

Sorry, perhaps it is easy to misunderstand what I said about there not being deals. When it concerns diamonds, there is a reason why a diamond gets discounted normally, it could be a clarity issue or a cut issue or both or color, etc. Sometimes you can find diamonds at good prices and it really may be a deal to the person who is happy with such stone and it may be a great stone but objectively speaking there are many factors that affect value and if a vendor could sell a stone for more, they would. It can happen that something does not sell for one reason or the other and the stone is perfectly fine; it may be a not so popular color, the wrong setting, a lower clarity grade and it could still be a beautiful, wonderfully cut stone, not necessarily a bad one at all but value correlates to the specific specs. There are cases when it is much more difficult to assign a value to a stone, it may be a wonderfully cut, gorgeous fancy colored diamond with a stunning color that is very popular but this is a different story. Here we are talking about a colorless stone with a lower clarity and color and a chip, do we know anything about cut based on what the appraiser said? Hope you do not me speaking openly with you about this but obviously there is a reason for concern in this case as you cannot rely on a jeweler who is not honest with you and does not treat you right.

 

[Gypsy]

Where are you located?

If you are near a pricescope appraiser then I would recommend you negotiate a 7 day FULL REFUND, no questions asked, return policy. If he won't give you that. Walk away. I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

If he will agree to that. IN WRITING and signed by him. Then you can take it to get it appraised yourself. NOT at this same appraiser.

As for the vendor. He ordered the setting. That's his problem. Not yours. You didn't tell him to do it. His liability. And maybe he can take it as a life lesson and grow from it.

I'm not impressed. Too many red flags. If he won't agree to a full refund return policy on the stone for a minimum of 7 days I'd walk and not look back. That's where the line is drawn for me.

 

[klokkeblomst]

I think there are some things I need to clarify:

1. The appraiser who is looking at the diamond IS the pricescope appraiser. I specifically agreed to this arrangement as I've always just been given in-house appraisals from jewelers in the past. I thought this was the right thing to do. If I made a mistake on this, it's my mistake, not the jewelers. There isn't another pricescope appraiser where I live.

2. I'm not looking for a "deal" as I know they don't really exist with diamonds. What I should have asked is, "Does a small chip that I can only see in a blown up photo effect the price drastically? " The correct answer appears to be that only a qualified appraiser can tell me that.

3. I absolutely want the setting that was ordered, and gave very specific instructions for it (I entered all the info myself for the jeweler on the stuller order.) I agreed to the fact it was non-refundable. We agreed on a day to order it, but I thought we also agreed that the appraisal would be back by then. In the meantime my husband contacted him about engraving and may have implied that the jeweler should order. I would be hard pressed to say whose fault this is. My only concern is if they can't bezel the stone properly. I will see the setting when it comes in next week and go from there.

4. I think the "guarantee" is a way to get out of the stone if I still want to. Honestly, I really love this stone. I love the cut, the faceting pattern, and it's fire. I think the "guarantee" was a sales man's bluff. I don't like being BS'd, but I've heard BS from every B&M jeweler I've ever dealt with, so I'm not shocked.

I appreciate the protective advice many of you have given me to walk away, and I still may do that. I'd be even happier if I end up with this diamond I love perfectly set in the setting I chose, at a price that allows my husband and I to keep our house buying goal on track.

I do take blame for some of this, though. I was too relaxed and trusting and too quick to agree to everything. I'll talk to the appraiser today. I can still contract directly with them and have a different appraiser in the lab look at it - would that be a reasonable solution?

 

[klokkeblomst]

I just got off the phone with the appraiser. He said that that he would not refer to what I'm seeing as a chip, but rather a small nick in the girdle typical of OECs. He said it didn't impact the clarity grade at all. He said that there was an internal feather causing the grade, but the stone appeared eye clean to him (as it does to me, also). He gave me a figure he has appraised it at that is well above what I am paying. He was very forthcoming about the flaws he saw in the diamond, and offered for me to bring it in and he would go over all of these details with me so I could see exactly what he was seeing.

My mind is at ease about the diamond now.

Now I just have the setting to fret over, but it will be here soon enough.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

Great news!!

 

[Gypsy]

Ok. Well the appraisers comments and your clarifications have made it much more palatable.

Plus you love the stone. And that's important.

So... go for it!

 

[klokkeblomst]

The setting showed up today!

I got a couple of pictures of the diamond in it, unmounted. I think I am in LOVE.

I was so excited I forgot to take pictures of the pave struts, but they're gorgeous!

 

[Sunstorm]

OP, I am very happy that this turned out well for you, congratulations! That setting looks very pretty, keep us posted how it looks at the end.