How often do you talk to aging parents?

[VRBeauty]

... Al Anon worked for me.. and counseling and just having my own kids...

I should add that Al-Anon helped me deal with the controlling and judgmental aspects of my mother's behavior too. I "qualified" for Al-Anon not because of my parents but because of the men I chose - but I guess it's all related, isn't it. Anyhow, Al-anon helped me recognize the controlling etc. behavior and start to set boundaries. As MC mentioned, it's easy to start seeing the controlling behavior everywhere and to sort of overdo it - . But I did eventually get it all put into perspective and learn to pick my battles.

Yenny - being on the receiving end of a cold shoulder won't kill you.

I can only speak from my experience. Establishing boundaries wasn't an easy process. I'm sure I went overboard at times. I've heard my mother wail "why do you hate me so much" several times, and it was hard not to try to say something that would just make it all better. And I didn't do it alone. One of my SIL's was very forthright in speaking up when my mother was out of line, and her husband (my brother) was very good about backing her up - even if it meant cutting a visit to the folks short by a day or two. I know my mother went through her own soul-searching too. But now I'm very glad that we all went through our various processes and we've all reached our new albeit imperfect equilibriums. I'd hate to be estranged from my parents or to be working through all that stuff now when they really do need us kids.

VR, I don't recall saying that it would kill me? Your comment was really uncalled for. I think all any of us are trying to do is show Circe support and understanding.

I didn't understand your concern about getting the cold shoulder from your mother, especially when her actions likely hurtful to you and your family. But I also didn't intend to be mean to you... and you're right, you were posting your experiences to help Circe and not to be commented on - so I'll go back to sharing from my personal experience.

Peace?

 

[Amber St. Clare]

Well, half the problem is solved, as my father called last night to disown me (again). I am too damned old for this.

Thank you all for your sterling advice - I am looking forward to sitting down to reply properly, once my toddler stops howling with outrage over my paying attention to anything but him. This is a drive-by, but I *did* want y'all to know I was reading and appreciating your taking the time to give me the benefit of your wisdom and experience!

I can speak from experience about this: You will be in a much better place if you remove yourself totally and for good. A break up with them may the best mental health present you can give yourself and your family, My folks are dead--I don't know the whys and hows or where they are buried and could not care less. I made a new family. And I have absolutely no guilt.

 

[TooPatient]

Well, half the problem is solved, as my father called last night to disown me (again). I am too damned old for this.

Thank you all for your sterling advice - I am looking forward to sitting down to reply properly, once my toddler stops howling with outrage over my paying attention to anything but him. This is a drive-by, but I *did* want y'all to know I was reading and appreciating your taking the time to give me the benefit of your wisdom and experience!

I can speak from experience about this: You will be in a much better place if you remove yourself totally and for good. A break up with them may the best mental health present you can give yourself and your family, My folks are dead--I don't know the whys and hows or where they are buried and could not care less. I made a new family. And I have absolutely no guilt.

Big hugs Circe!

It isn't a decision to be made while your feelings are hurt, but I do agree with Amber. That is a decision I made almost 10 years ago about my father and is a decision I'm having to make now about my mother. It hurts. But, for me, it hurts less to be building my own healthy family than to keep the massive dysfunction around.

Quit answering the phone. Ignore them. Shut the ringer off if you have to or just block their numbers so you don't have to listen to it. Take a few days or a few weeks and focus on YOUR life and YOUR family. Then be honest with yourself -- is it best for you to keep all contact gone or is it best for you to try to set boundaries?

 

[yennyfire]

... Al Anon worked for me.. and counseling and just having my own kids...

I should add that Al-Anon helped me deal with the controlling and judgmental aspects of my mother's behavior too. I "qualified" for Al-Anon not because of my parents but because of the men I chose - but I guess it's all related, isn't it. Anyhow, Al-anon helped me recognize the controlling etc. behavior and start to set boundaries. As MC mentioned, it's easy to start seeing the controlling behavior everywhere and to sort of overdo it - . But I did eventually get it all put into perspective and learn to pick my battles.

Yenny - being on the receiving end of a cold shoulder won't kill you.

I can only speak from my experience. Establishing boundaries wasn't an easy process. I'm sure I went overboard at times. I've heard my mother wail "why do you hate me so much" several times, and it was hard not to try to say something that would just make it all better. And I didn't do it alone. One of my SIL's was very forthright in speaking up when my mother was out of line, and her husband (my brother) was very good about backing her up - even if it meant cutting a visit to the folks short by a day or two. I know my mother went through her own soul-searching too. But now I'm very glad that we all went through our various processes and we've all reached our new albeit imperfect equilibriums. I'd hate to be estranged from my parents or to be working through all that stuff now when they really do need us kids.

VR, I don't recall saying that it would kill me? Your comment was really uncalled for. I think all any of us are trying to do is show Circe support and understanding.

I didn't understand your concern about getting the cold shoulder from your mother, especially when her actions likely hurtful to you and your family. But I also didn't intend to be mean to you... and you're right, you were posting your experiences to help Circe and not to be commented on - so I'll go back to sharing from my personal experience.

Peace?

Peace. I wish I didn't care about getting my Mom's cold shoulder, but my parents are the only grandparents my kids have, so even though they have very little to do with the kids, I try to keep the peace...it's easier than the alternative, kwim?

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I can speak from experience about this: You will be in a much better place if you remove yourself totally and for good. A break up with them may the best mental health present you can give yourself and your family, My folks are dead--I don't know the whys and hows or where they are buried and could not care less. I made a new family. And I have absolutely no guilt.

Yep, at the very least, take a vacation from your parents, Circe. This is a kind of rough time of year to quit talking to them as Christmas is just a few days away, however, your dad's "disowning" you just before the holiday, sort of helps you in proving that his behavior is completely ridiculous and self-centered. By not talking at all, you'll have a chance to ground yourself...I do agree with Amber that the best solution is to remove yourself from them, but at least reduce contact to none for a couple weeks and see how you feel more free!

My mom lives too far away to visit (thank goodness) and my father is dead, but as I had said previously, whenever we don't talk for extended periods and then we talk again THE EXACT SAME patterns emerge. I'm not sure how old your parents are, but there is probably a 99.9% chance they will not change, just like my mom's hasn't

Like Amber St. Clare, I have no guilt about my mom. What took that was doing a lot of reading on controlling behavior and you know, I actually became mad at her for a while before I moved on. Why should any of us have to put up with this crap?

 

[Rhea]

Circe, I'm very sorry that you're having to deal with this. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to deal with this situation for you. I hope that you are able to set some boundaries or come to a decision that works best for your mental health and the happiness of the family that you chose to create.

 

[CJ2008]

I cast more than once per month but it's probably more like once a week...sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less...

I'm sure she wishes it was every day...

Visiting is about once a month...sometimes more, sometimes less...

She probably wishes it was more too. She does try to give me the guilt trip about it once in a while, and often, it works...I mean I know they won't be around forever.

But I'm a loner, and don't much like visiting or talking on the phone, so any more than this takes a lot to do.

ETA: I should add...my parents do sound like a delight compared to most people's parents...they are generally positive, upbeat people, always been able to take care of themselves, always been there for us, pretty much don't meddle in our business, etc. They're far from perfect, of course, but they're not miserable, etc. So it's really not about "them" why I don't visit or call more...

ETA2: Circe, my mother used to be the same way with the phone calls. If I didn't call every day, she wouldn't talk to me when I did call...she'd tell my father to tell me she didn't want to talk to me. It took me YEARS to get the courage to not call every day and be OK with her getting mad. It was really hard. But I did it. It's probably one of the reasons I hate the phone so much - all those years of being obligated to call.

CJ, I'm glad you found a balance. Could I ask you how you got past the part where she got mad? Did you just put your head down and go through it, did you have a talk where you agreed on things ...? I've been stuck in this all-or-nothing space for too long, and while right now I'm appreciating the "nothing," I, too, realize they won't be around forever ... so I'd like to hopefully get past the constant recrimination. I'm just damned if I know how to do it.

[/quote]

Circe, I'm sorry it took me so long to respond...I haven't read through the whole thread after here so it's possible you already got your solution/plan of action.

But to answer your question...

1. It got to the point that I just couldn't deal with the anxiety of having to call every day and the fear of her getting mad if I didn't. I lived in fear of get getting mad at me, of having to kind of "beg" for her to be OK with me again. I started to really, really feel that it wasn't fair for her to do this to me any more. So that was the first thing I had to do, decide that no matter what it took I was going to "push back."

2. Second, I bought a book. A few books, actually:

Where to Draw The Line - Anne Katherine
Crucial Confrontations - Kerry Patterson
The Power of Positive Confrontation - Barbara Pachter

I devoured these books and one of them in particular (unfortunately I don't remember which one, I looked at them for you to see if I remembered, but I don't) become my "bible." I would literally read a chapter or a paragraph that spoke to me and I would try out the exact strategies the book would say to try.

(I should add that I had been in therapy for many years over things and this always came up. But although the therapy helped me understand some of my mother's behavior, it didn't give me practical tools for me to put a plan into effect. The books did that.)

3. Shared all of it with DH, who gave me a lot support and his support and encouragement helped me stay strong during moments I thought I just couldn't pull it off.

I did it gradually. At first I increased the time between phone calls from 1 day to 2 days. Then from 2 days to 3. I think all together it took like a year or two. Maybe more. It was really, really hard, Circe. My heart would be racing every time I knew I was going to try a new way of talking to her. And it would definitely be racing whenever I would wait 3 days to call. Sometimes I really felt I was never going to be able to do it. The more I pushed back the more she pushed. Then my dad started to get involved, who had never before gotten mad when I didn't call. He would say things to me. And sometimes I would think OK, things seem to be going well, it's been a few months that I haven't called every day, and she hasn't gotten pissed...and then she'd get pissed again. But eventually, I think she just had to accept it. In a way I feel bad I'm sure it was really hard for her to let go of that control. And perhaps in some ways she equated me not calling to me not loving her any more. But I just really had to let go of that weight on my shoulders. It's really weird just how much of a hold and how much anxiety I put myself through just to avoid her getting mad at me or having a confrontation with her.

I hope this is helpful to you Circe. Any more questions please ask.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Hmmm. Now might be a good time to take them up on that oh-so loving offer. I say that lightly, but I mean it. Take a break from them and see how you feel. Perhaps see a therapist to come to terms with this whole situation. Then you can mourn the loss of the parents you always wanted, but never had, without staying on the hamster wheel and continuing to languish in the abuse. Maybe one day you will want to be close to them again. Maybe not. Time will tell.

I thought of something else. You have mentioned a few times in this thread how you want to to better with your own son than they did with you. And I want to assure you that you CAN! My mom came from a very dysfunctional home with many of the same issues you decribe. But she was a wonderful mother and we are very close. You may not be able to have the parents you wanted, but you can BE the parent you wanted for your son. It can be very healing to offer to your child the unconditional love, emotional stability, and nourishment for the soul that you yourself may not have received or do not receive now. It can be very healing giving to your children the things you crave the most. And isn't that a much better use of your precious time and energy?

 

[distracts]

Well, half the problem is solved, as my father called last night to disown me (again). I am too damned old for this.

See, this is where, next time they call, I wouldn't answer. And then I'd let them work themselves up into a frenzy by not communicating with them for a week or so (at least until after Christmas, preferably after New Years), then answer and say, "I'm sorry, why do you keep calling? You disowned me, which means I have no obligation to talk to you." And then just hang up. And let them think about that. They will either come around, which means there may be hope, or they'll go even crazier, which may give you the impetus needed to cut them off.

Their actions need to have consequences. They won't ever learn if you just keep talking to them. The only way for them to even have a hope of learning is if you start implementing logical consequences for all of their crazy actions.

 

[distracts]

it feels wrong to hang up on my 67 year old mother ... even if I had just told her I was seeing a shrink, and she had just responded by saying that was disgusting

If this is an actual thing that happened, I not only would have hung right up but would not have spoken to that person again for at least a month. Doesn't matter if it's your mother. To say that seeking the help of a medical professional is disgusting is, well, disgusting. That statement shows she has no respect for you and no care for your wellbeing. Ugh, if this is an actual conversation, it's sickening. Hugs! (Admittedly, I am very biased because I would have killed myself long ago if not for the treatment I receive from shrinks and the like.)

You can't use the average to determine your own behavior. You have to know what the average behavior would be for people with toxic parents In your situation, I would not talk to my parents very often.

If it helps you to feel okay with your decision, I choose not to talk to my father at all ever. We had a brief period where we were in touch in my late teens and early 20s, and were in touch when I got married. But five years ago I decided I did not want him in my life and so I do not talk to him. Having my own kids has harshened my willingness to forgive the sins of my parent. He e-mailed me once, and I felt guilty, but decided not to respond. I also have a grandmother who sounds like your parents, and I also don't talk to her much. On the other hand, MY mom does talk to this same woman every day and suffers for it. I'm not sure what is "right", but I do know that you are welcome and validated to make any choice that benefits your own wellbeing. You are an adult now with a family to care for, and that, along with your own wellbeing, takes priority. Unfortunately, your parents and my father and grandmother made their own beds By accident or on purpose, if people are unkind or abusive or neglectful of their kids, they just don't get to have warm relationships with them as adults. They either guilt and manipulate their kids into looking after them, a form of abuse IMO, or they just don't see them much. But, THEY could repair the relationship if they truly wanted it. If they are unwilling or unable, why is it your job to keep suffering?

THIS! That was why I answered with my husband's parents as well. Like I said, he only speaks to them on major holidays. Honestly, sometimes I think even that is too much - I hate so much to see him made to feel bad for things he shouldn't feel bad about.

There has to be an in-between where my kid gets to know his grandparents but I'm not quietly wishing for a nice Ambien cocktail every time they call. Right?

You're not going to like my answer. But I'm going to give it anyway. There is ONLY a nice in-between if THEY decide to make one. YOU CANNOT CONTROL THEIR BEHAVIOR. The only thing you can control is your response to their behavior. It sucks! Because the solution seems so simple to you but they don't seem to get it. I have seen some people's parents come into line and start behaving. I have seen some people's parents behave the same as ever and get a decreasing amount of contact. I have seen some people's parents go batshit crazy and lose it. I know many, many people who only talk to their parents at major holidays or who never talk to their parents. And in every situation I know, I think it's the right choice. It's not like your parents are annoying some of the time but shut up when you get annoyed right back - they're a never-ending stream of guilt-trips, abusive language, and drama.

 

[movie zombie]

Circe, pause for a moment.
you have very difficult parents who guilt trip you and disparage you......
you see a shrink I'm guessing in part to deal with your issues with them.
I understand you would like your child to know the grandparents.......
but do you want your child to have to deal with them AS THEY ARE?
they don't treat you with respect.
do you want your child to see that, learn that it is ok behavior, and then either start disrespecting you and/or have issues of self-worth that they have to deal with because of them?
again, pause for a moment.
think it through.
you can only control your reaction to them.
but you can control their access to your child.
they have to decide they want a relationship with you.
if they don't want to abide by your rules of how to interact, cut them off.
they need to take the consequences of their decisions.
only until they do will you have any chance of a "healthy" relationship with them.
and only then can your child have a healthy relationship with them.
do not put your desire for your child to have contact with your parents above your child's welfare!

 

[Kunzite]

Circe, your post has been sticking with me and I can't get it out of my mind. MZ, like always, has perfectly articulated why. I have a visceral reaction to people (not you, people in general) who proclaim that they would cut off their toxic relative but won't because they want this toxic person to have a relationship with their children. When you bring a child around a person you're teaching them that this person is a healthy and safe person to be around. With my own mother I was willing to take her emotional abuse a few times a year because it was easier than the fallout from cutting her out of my life. That changed dramatically when my ODS was born. Over my dead body would I allow him to see me lay flat and take her abuse and be disrespected and learn that as normal. Over my dead body would I allow her to affect my childrens' emotional health in the way she had done to me (and now subsequently my two darling nieces). This mama bear will not allow that.

I didn't share the story of my niece because my mother is also an alcoholic, so I didn't want to project too much. The shortened version is that she passed out drunk (for how long we can only guess) while babysitting my 4 year old niece. Then when my sister was upset about it she proceeded to emotionally abuse her more (voicemails along the line of, "No wonder nobody has married you." And, "I'm going to move to (new state) because I haven't seen the girls in so long.") During this time my sister still allowed her DDs to talk on the phone to my mom so they were lucky enough to get the guilt directly too. She also tried to guilt my 2 year old in his birthday card (she was obviously not invited to his birthday party) with gems like, I wish I could actually see you, etc. Luckily she stopped sending them cards but if she hadn't I was fully prepared to start sending them RTS.

MC, I'm with you on seeing dysfunction everywhere! I can't watch anything, TV or movies, that claim to be about family because apparently the only type of family they show is full of enmeshment and boundary stomping.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

I would say we talk on the phone or see each other at least 1-2 times per week (we only live 4 miles apart) but we also "talk" on FB pretty much daily. She posts statuses often as do I and we comment blah blah blah. It's nice and it makes it easier to KIT frequently since we're both busy at work.

 

[NOYFB]

Long story, but I haven't spoken to my mother for almost 6 years and my dad and I haven't spoken for 2, this time around. I will never speak to either of them again.

 

[tuqoa]

Circe I really feel for you! My mom is toxic. She was a compulsive hoarder during my childhood and until recently (I'm 32 now). When I first moved out at 18 I used to talk to her once or twice a week, but by the time I was 24 I was only calling her once a month. Now it's only a couple times a year. She's in assisted living now, she can't take care of herself and it was the only way to ensure she wouldn't junk up yet another house (my husband and I are currently attempting to de-junk and sell both her house and my dad's house that she junked up). It would be one thing if she was a pleasant sort of person, but she's not. She's bitter and believes she's a martyr, passive-aggressive, etc. I realized I was a happier and healthier person the less contact I had with her. It took me a long time to extricate myself from her web.

My dad, before his Alzheimer's kicked in, I used to talk to a couple times a month, and that was cool. He was a decent guy. Once his Alz started progressing talking on the phone became really difficult because he was having comprehension problems.


My husband's mom is a lovely person otherwise, but she used to be a little over-bearing about phone calls. She and FIL moved to Oregon along with his sister (we're in CA) 15 years ago. SIL is a SAHM and is in constant contact with MIL throughout the day, every day, and MIL used to expect the same from my husband (who has a standard 9-5 job). Thankfully hubby gradually decreased that down to once a week, though we know she'd still prefer every day.


ETA: I hadn't read further than the first page of responses when I posted this, and just after posting saw mention of kids being involved. This is a bridge we haven't crossed yet, but hope to soon. I have endometriosis and we've been ttc for 4 years, about to do IVF in Feb. I am still undecided as to how much access I will allow my mom to have to our kid/s, should we be able to have any. My mom and her mom had a toxic relationship, and my mom poisoned my relationship with my grandma when I was a kid. I will do everything in my power to prevent the toxic cycle from continuing. We'll probably have a consult with a child psychologist if we get pregnant, hopefully they will have some advice for what would be best for our kids. I think short, supervised visits would be okay, but I wouldn't trust her any further than that.

 

[Rosebloom]

Circe, I haven't read all the comments (except yours and a few who I know always provide excellent advice - looking at you Dreamer) because, well, it's Christmas eve and I want to be jolly! But I did want to take a moment to say this...

1. You are awesome. Obviously I don't actually know you in person, but I love reading your comments on PS. I find your writing witty and insightful and your brand of feminism absolutely inspiring. Not to mention your exquisite taste in jewelry. You deserve to be happy. Not just to be a better wife or set a good example for your boy, but just because you, Circe, deserve happiness (as we all do!).

2. You absolutely must set boundaries. I love Dreamer's ideas for how to go about it. Work with a great therapist to find a strategy that will work for you.

3. This will be a hard process, but your husband, your therapist and perhaps a very close friend will be here to help you through it. They can hold your hand, give you lots of TLC and love you through it. And you can be very gentle with yourself and understand that this is going to be messy and it will take time. But it's worth it.

4. I'm speaking from experience. My particulars are different from yours, but I had a long journey and have come out the other side with genuinely happy, fruitful relationships with my parents. I feel so blessed to have made it work and I realize that not everyone is so lucky. But I wanted to mention that to give you hope. It might be that someday you are able to have a positive relationship with them on your terms.

Hugs! We are always here for you to vent (and if you'd ever like to chat offline I'd welcome that as well).

 

[Polished]

I echo Rosebloom. If I was your parent I wouldn't even be interested in speaking to you - a phone call would go more along the lines of "darling, speak to me!" and then I'd imagine a lovely flow of original thoughts, clothed in unexpected but totally apt vocabulary, complete with a wonderful turn of phrase that would thoroughly make my day. If it's not your parents I'm glad you have others in your life that appreciate you.

 

[Circe]

You guys are all way, way too kind. It's been hectic what with the holidays, so I haven't had the chance to respond individually - BUT I WILL! - but I've been reading every new post with immense appreciation. I can't remember if I posted this already: the day after my dad called to disown my, my mother sent me this ridiculous series of texts chiding me for having upset him. When I pointed out that he disowned me, she wrote back something like, "So, you want to disown us? God bless you." Which, coming from my mother the lifelong agnostic, comes off somewhat passive-aggressively inappropriate. (That may be their official Band Name.)

So, yes, short version is that I agree with all of you, and will be severely curtailing contact: I've officially hit the limit. I still want to be there for them if they need me (as in, goodness forbid, have increased infirmity and need physical assistance), but I'm done with biting my tongue over the guilt tripping and negativity. And the first order of the new year will be to find a new therapist (I know a few of you mentioned ... I'd been doing CBT last year, but between the distance to her office and my work schedule this term, it just didn't fly). Hey, a resolution! I almost never make those ....

Now, off to my BFF's folks to celebrate Christmas the atheist Jewish way.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Circe, I started a really long involved post to you (twice) but I realized I was probably helping myself more than I was helping you so I never hit "submit." I'll just say at this point that I am happy about your *resolution* and I wish you the best in sorting this out in the way that's more appropriate for YOU and your family (and by that I don't mean Mr. and Mrs. Passively-Aggressive Inappropriate -- I think you should have T-shirts printed). Happy holidays (whatever holidays those may be, and however and with whomever you choose to celebrate them) to you my friend.

 

[tuqoa]

Circe I'm so happy for you that you seem to have crossed a bridge in this whole debacle. Glad to hear you're going to continue CBT -- I did a year of CBT in my early-20's and it helped me so so much. The CBT is the only reason I got through some really difficult years in my late-20's as well as I did -- it wasn't just a temporary benefit, the things I learned from that one year of intense therapy continue to help me to this day. It is hard and emotional work (and expensive, ugh!), but so worth it in the end. Good luck to you!

 

[monarch64]

You guys are all way, way too kind. It's been hectic what with the holidays, so I haven't had the chance to respond individually - BUT I WILL! - but I've been reading every new post with immense appreciation. I can't remember if I posted this already: the day after my dad called to disown my, my mother sent me this ridiculous series of texts chiding me for having upset him. When I pointed out that he disowned me, she wrote back something like, "So, you want to disown us? God bless you." Which, coming from my mother the lifelong agnostic, comes off somewhat passive-aggressively inappropriate. (That may be their official Band Name.)

So, yes, short version is that I agree with all of you, and will be severely curtailing contact: I've officially hit the limit. I still want to be there for them if they need me (as in, goodness forbid, have increased infirmity and need physical assistance), but I'm done with biting my tongue over the guilt tripping and negativity. And the first order of the new year will be to find a new therapist (I know a few of you mentioned ... I'd been doing CBT last year, but between the distance to her office and my work schedule this term, it just didn't fly). Hey, a resolution! I almost never make those ....

Now, off to my BFF's folks to celebrate Christmas the atheist Jewish way.

I just wanted to tell you that I ****ing love you, and I wish you the best.

 

[blondie~]

Everyone's situation is unique. I respect others' communications with their relatives. I've empathy for those in difficult situations. I was in challenging circumstances too with family.

My parents are dead. Actually all my elder relatives are dead. Actually, almost all my other relatives have died. I'm the only one left in my family, except for a sib who rarely speaks to me and my own kid.
I remember having to limit talks with my mom. I was trying to be respectful; yet, she was often so critical, judging of me. I often left our conversations feeling guilty or inadequate. Even as she aged, I found myself conflicted, grasping to please her, not trying to offend her. Hence, with all this 'polite' but limited conversation, she never knew me well as an adult. But I'd call her every 3 weeks or so. Sometimes she'd call me. My dad was different. I even enjoyed speaking, visiting with him when even he became debilitated, confused, forgetful in his veterans hospital. I'd have contact with him every week of so. We all lived in the same city. After my parents died, I was better able to talk with my auntie. I learned more of her, appreciated her more after mom (her sister) died. She was an interesting, a fun person. She passed away in July.
It's a true thing: A kid doesn't think much of 'communication' with their parents, relatives until after they die. I've very specific memories of those final year conversations with my mom in the hospice, my dad in the vets hospital, my auntie in palliative care. I wish I'd made the effort to talk with them more before they passed away. I wish I'd searched for more common ground, things we could discuss. And Ive so many questions of my family history. I spent too much time disagreeing, arguing with mom. I never tried to know her when I became an adult. I regret this. I'm hoping for a renewed relationship with my brother in 2014.

 

[Circe]

Hi, guys. Individual responses following this post (I've kept wanting to reply, but, a) much like grading papers, the longer you put it off, the more intimidating the growing stack of responses gets!, and, b) man, this whole thing gets depressing fast when I think about it). No real progress, just a gradual shift to an attitude that I like to call "the triumph of experience over hope." See, the other day I had to go to 47th St., where everybody asked after my dad, making me, a) feel warm and fuzzy, and, b) slightly homesick. So, I tried calling my has-not-disowned-me-[yet]-parent, despite the raised eyebrows of my husband and the, "Uh, you sure you want to do that?" of my best friend, and ... drumroll, please! ... it went exactly as well as you'd expect.

So. Now I'm reading The Narcissistic Family, and all y'all's sterling advice, and calling this a wash. Oh, well - win some, lose some, right?

 

[Circe]

I talk to my mother about twice a week. Unfortunately I've never really learned how to talk to my father - he's the silent type, my mother is anything but, and we all fell into the pattern of communicating through Mom years ago. Now that my father's pretty much deaf that makes more sense too. There have been periods in my life when it was difficult for me to talk with my mother - it seemed like she went on and on about any and everything - and I would just sort of hold the receiver away from my ear and say uh-huh from time to time. Those days are long gone however. My mother is mellowing in her old age and respecting boundaries more (although she does gripe about how she's "Not allowed" to give us advice anymore - LOL). She's seeing me more as an equal in ways, and relying more on me and my younger brothers to help out with medical situations. We're dealing with two family medical crises now, including her treatment for colon cancer, so I'm grateful that the rifts were worked out before all this stuff hit.

Circe - as others have said, you don't have to put up with that kind of carp so please don't let your parents guilt-trip you into it. I grew up with the mantra that questioning my parents was a bad thing and disobeying God to boot, so the notion of challenging my parents did not come easily to any of us. I also realized that my mother lost both her parents, and my father lost his father, while my parents were still children or very young adults. In other words, they never had to go through this differentiation and had no way to understand how difficult it could be. But I digress. You do not have to put up with behavior that's disrespectful to you, your family, or your time; not even from your parents.

I used to date someone who had put his mother on a phone call budget. She was allowed three calls per week. He kept track on a calendar, and if she exceeded her allotment he could simply say "Sorry - I'll talk with you next week." I'm sure it was difficult to get this started but it seemed to be working when I was with him!

ETA - as to how you start something like that... I think you sit down and write a a little speech that you can read to her... or you can mail her a letter. "I've found that most of our phone conversations are very negative/distressing/pointless so I (or hubby and I) have decided that I will not accept more than X phone calls from the two of you each week, and I do reserve right to discontinue any phone call that gets unnecessarily unpleasant. If you call me more than X times in one week I will hang up." That's the bones - you can shade and soften from there.

VR, I found your whole post helpfully, but particularly the underscored, because it applies to my folks as well. Given that they immigrated, from roughly around the point in their lives that I'm at now, , they never saw their parents again (as far as I can tell, my mother didn't see it as much of a loss: my father, I'm not sure about). So, not only have they not had to go through this process, but ... in some ways, it seems representative of the do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do quality that I dislike about them. Or maybe it's some weirdly contorted guilt thing: because they didn't "do right" by their parents, it's somehow that much more important that I do. It can be difficult to parse.

 

[movie zombie]

and for those of us with parents that were born prior to the Depression but grew up during it: life was very very different then. often their parents had not been in this country long. the idea of "childhood" was foreign. there are so many things that I can take into account about my parents and their "parenting style" or lack thereof.

I heard an interview yesterday with the author of The Great Santini. while our family was dysfunctional, it was not nearly the abusive one that he grew up in....yet when he spoke of his parents as survivors of the Depression era and comments about his nonexistent grandparents resonated.

still doesn't mean we don't have the right to set limits and not be abused emotionally as adults.

 

[aljdewey]

Am I being a bad daughter if I, a) politely refuse to listen to any more of the criticism and flatly tell them that if they start, I will be saying goodbye, and, b) take the phone calls down to once a week or less? Having been raised in a small family with a borderline disorder personality parent, I tend to be a little fuzzy on when it is and is not okay to draw boundaries.

I know I do not want to talk to them. At all. But I want to know what the baseline for being a responsible child to aging parents is, by normal-person standards.

I've not yet read all the responses; I will do that just after I comment.

No, you are not being a bad daughter to discontinue contact with people who cannot participate in a healthy relationship, no matter what their relationship to you is. Family does not get a special license to be abusive without consequence in my book. It is completely okay to set boundaries to limit your exposure to unhealthy relationships - full stop. No exceptions.

At the point of next occurrence, let them know that you aren't comfortable with the ongoing negativity and criticism and that you're not going to spend your energy engaging in it, but that you'll be happy to speak to them at a later time when the conversation can take a different tone. Be clear on why you're disengaging from the conversation; they need to understand what the issue is, and then it's up to them to correct it (and enjoy a relationship with you) or not.

 

[House Cat]

Hi, guys. Individual responses following this post (I've kept wanting to reply, but, a) much like grading papers, the longer you put it off, the more intimidating the growing stack of responses gets!, and, b) man, this whole thing gets depressing fast when I think about it). No real progress, just a gradual shift to an attitude that I like to call "the triumph of experience over hope." See, the other day I had to go to 47th St., where everybody asked after my dad, making me, a) feel warm and fuzzy, and, b) slightly homesick. So, I tried calling my has-not-disowned-me-[yet]-parent, despite the raised eyebrows of my husband and the, "Uh, you sure you want to do that?" of my best friend, and ... drumroll, please! ... it went exactly as well as you'd expect.

So. Now I'm reading The Narcissistic Family, and all y'all's sterling advice, and calling this a wash. Oh, well - win some, lose some, right?

http://www.outofthefog.net/index.html

This website is a wealth of information. There is also a forum.

There is advice on how to deal with family members who have personality disorders and how to come "out of the fog" of emotional abuse. If someone is disowning you as a means for control, that is emotional blackmail and that is abuse.


I don't speak to my mother at all. She has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I tried for years to have a relationship with her. She continued to manipulate and abuse me and my family. I still struggle with the decision not to have her in my life, but the catalyst was that I watched her as she began to groom my son for a lifetime of abuse and alcoholism and that is where I had to draw the line. My therapist told me that other than your parents, grandparents are the most important part of your psychological make-up. They WILL form a part of your opinions and mental health. They are your elders. If they are personality disordered, they are capable of doing incredible harm.

If you are relating to the book you are reading and to one of your parents being Narcissistic and maybe the other being the enabler, maybe this website is for you. Also, I hope you keep that promise to yourself to go to therapy. My therapist has been my lifesaver. She has helped me to heal many wounds from my childhood, become more assertive, come to terms with what has happened in my childhood, and most of all helped me to realize that I deserve a space in this world.

Wishing you well on your healing journey.

 

[aljdewey]

Circe, pause for a moment.
you have very difficult parents who guilt trip you and disparage you......
you see a shrink I'm guessing in part to deal with your issues with them.
I understand you would like your child to know the grandparents.......
but do you want your child to have to deal with them AS THEY ARE?
they don't treat you with respect.
do you want your child to see that, learn that it is ok behavior, and then either start disrespecting you and/or have issues of self-worth that they have to deal with because of them?
again, pause for a moment.
think it through.
you can only control your reaction to them.
but you can control their access to your child.
they have to decide they want a relationship with you.
if they don't want to abide by your rules of how to interact, cut them off.
they need to take the consequences of their decisions.
only until they do will you have any chance of a "healthy" relationship with them.
and only then can your child have a healthy relationship with them.
do not put your desire for your child to have contact with your parents above your child's welfare!

This is so incredibly well said, particularly the bolded.

If I had children, I'd not want them to just have *a* relationship with grandparents; I'd wish for them to have a *good* relationship with their grandparents, and that's only possible if their grandparents are willing to engage in a healthy relationship.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Circe, I think you are coming out of thrall! When kids are growing up they buy into their parents' reality, however functional (ideally), or dysfunctional it may be. At some point in our development, we begin to become more objective and see the ways in which our parents' brand of reality does not match with others' sense of reality. When our parents have unhealthy ways of viewing the world, and kids start to see those unhealthy ways for what they are, and begin to realize that there are other ways of living, I think of this as coming out of thrall -- like casting off a spell cast by an evil wizard. Some people never come out if thrall and spend their lives trying to please and make happy their essentially unappeasable parents. But of course, that means they are still living a life in service of their parents' agenda. It hurts to claim your freedom. But man, it's better than the alternative!

On another note, CBT may not be the right therapeutic course for you. That method is one of the most empirically validated methods but can work best for concrete issues like social anxiety or other acute and specific issues. For this type of situation, another therapeutic approach may work best -- I can't name them, but there are a few others. But, I think therapist-client fit is the more important factor than the approach used, anyway. So keep looking until you find the right person who meets your needs. And set very very concrete goals for yourself in therapy initially so that you can make progress at the most important step -- boundaries and learning how to meet your own needs and recognize unhealthy demands on your time and emotions.

 

[iLander]

Circe,

Honestly, why do you put up with this treatment? They are obviously people with issues of their own, and no amount of appeasing on your part will ever fix it, and nothing will ever be enough. Save yourself, and don't let your children see you being dissed (they might think it's an okay thing to do).

Next time they start up, just say "You're being rude (or hurtful, or whatever fits), so I'm hanging up." And keep doing it. Call when YOU feel you should, and just repeat that phrase (pick a phrase and stick with it) whenever they start.

I think you have to get to a certain age to give up on the "great parent" dream. I had this when I was younger, with my Dad, but finally I snapped and didn't speak to him for 14 years. It was just a relief. Now I just treat him like a secondary relative; I'm polite, but not too involved. I know he's incapable of ever being the dad I wish he was. It's just not in him.

I gave up hope, and I feel much better now.

It hurts, but you have to see them as the fallible, unapproving, broken people that they are and will always be. And act accordingly.