Attn Dave Atlas, Richard Sherwood, Denver Appraiser, Garry Cut Nut , Fire&Ice Etc

[windowshopper]

FOLLOWING IS A POST FROM LILYETERNITY WITH A FAIRLY SERIOUS PROBLEM AND EQUALLY SERIOUS QUESTION. I AM POSTING THIS FOR HER B/C SHE NEEDS YOUR KIND ATTENTION TO THIS: THANKS GUYS


Hi,

We just purchased a 2ct VS2 round brilliant - it has a surface inclusion that is a line that starts at edge of the crown near the girdle and runs down the pavillion.

It is very small on the crown and we were told that we could hide it with a claw. Is this type of inclusion going to affect the performance of the stone?

We paid A LOT of money should we be concerned?????


THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP!!!

 

[denverappraiser]

Here is the original discussion. I've posted an answer there.

Neil

 

[oldminer]

Well, seeing as the money has been paid, the stone is now yours. Without seeing the extent of the inclusion, no expert will profess to know how durable the stone will be or how brilliancy might be altered. Possibly there will be no impact at all, but no one can tell you that without seeing the stone.

It is a shame that we often see questions surrounding durability anbd beauty on diamonds that have been bought and paid for BEFORE the important issues are resolved.

 

[diane5006]

I would take the advice of the 2 experts (oldminer and denverappraiser) who have responded...to this and your other thread...get an expert to look at it...and try not to get too worked up over advice given by people who are not experts and have not seen your stone...until some one sees it you won''t know for sure...
IF you don;t feel that you will ever be comfortable with the stone regardless..then return it and involve an appraiser in you next search...

Best of Luck

 

[RockDoc]

Durability Issues and other questions when you''re not sure of your purchase.

It never ceases to amaze me that people come to appraisers after the fact rather than before.

What Dave Atlas said is so true.

Advice by those who aren''t experienced and educated should be given a minor consideration by the buyer. Even answer by the professional gemologists and appraisers are extremely limited in their accuracy without seeing the stone, and sometimes we don''t always have the answers and have to suggest another person who is more specialized and experienced than we are.

The amount of money spent is not of primary importance. A person spending $ 500.00 for a diamond engagement ring, considers that amount just as important as the person who spent $ 500,000.00. Many times for the buyer with a very limited budget it is more important to him. Why? A person with a lot to spend, even if they make a mistake, can usually buy another stone, where people with more modest budgets can''t.

Also even experts or pros can''t answer all of the questions without testing and examination of the diamond(s).

I shudder when I see opinions of how good a stone is, from posters who haven''t seen it or have not seen the stone. Buyers who are making an important purchase should strongly consider having it checked and demanding this be done before the stone is paid for. I believe that Dave, Neil, Richard, Marty and others who offer gemological services who are independent, and offer hours of advice on the forum, will agree that none of us became experts upon completeing our Gemological education. Maybe this number sounds a little high but, I believe that a skilled grader has to have seen at least 2500 different stones of all the qualities before he become adept at evaluating diamonds. This takes years to accomplish, and as cutting methods change or become improved, even more experience at evaluating them is needed. A consumer, even if he or she has seen 100 stones, is kidding themselves to think that they can really evaluate the very detailed and techincal nuances between one stone and another.

But the choice to have a potential purchase thoroughly checked out is of course the choice of a consumer, and the "gamble" and risk should be a consideration that is pondered carefully.

The consumer should strongly consider how important their money is. Consumers who buy based on price primarilly are not evaluating their purchase properly. As Dave wrote, you paid the money so the stone is yours. How important is the money when it is already paid to the seller? In my opinion, not much, as what you have is the diamond. The money is gone- so should the money spent be of primary concern to the consumer? The diamond should be the item of intense scrutiny and careful consideration of the customer.

I see a lot of consumers who have gone to local appraisers, and I''ve looked at their websites when mentioned. Very few of these appraisers list what equipment they have. Consumers have written how a gemologist looked at their stone with just a microscope. The AGS and AGA organizations require their accredited members to have met requirements of having a well equipped lab. With the onset of increased and enhanced equipment more information can be provided that from a poorly equipped gemologist possibly may result in missing an important consideration.

When taking this position, I''ve been told that I am putting fear in consumer''s minds. I don''t feel that way. The diamonds being sold today cost consumers thousands of dollars, and they have worked really hard to earn that money. I''ve also been told that my attitude regarding the advanced equipment that I''ve made a considerable investment in is unfair to flaunt because other appraisers don''t have this level of lab equipment.

The real pros have made the committment and invested considerably to provide information at a level that is far better and more complete than those who haven''t. While I don''t know what everyone has, I do know that Dave and Neil have purchased far more equipment than the average appraiser has. Dave keeps a very well equipped lab, and my conversations with Neil also support that he has made a significant investment.

It has been written many times that buying a stone through a competent seller, saves a lot of money over price comparisons with B&M stores ( although B&M''s are having to compete more to keep from losing sales). Part of this saving should be invested in having the stone checked out thoroughly before it is paid for.

My post here will probably annoy a few people, but I know that it is the proper way to assure yourself that you''ve picked the right stone as well as having the gradings and seller representations verified.

Rockdoc

 

[strmrdr]

RockDoc,
I see where your coming from and I agree mostly but disagree somewhat strongly with parts of it.
There are tools that can tell a lot about a diamond without seeing it.
By comparing how diamonds of exellent make look under these tools one can draw fairly accurate conclusions as to the performance of the diamond in question.

Now as far as a being required to go to an independant appraiser or someone runs the risks getting riped off on the net has some truth when dealing with a drop shipped stone or some of the less respected vendors.
But when dealing with stocking dealers who see the stones and going with those that have solid reputations there is no more risk than the best local B&M and less risk than some B&M's or the chain stores.
To paint the awesome vendors like GOG, WF, Wink, Gary and niceice and some others with the same brush as the worst of the internet vendors is not very professional of you.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/12/2005 3:28

8 PM
Author: Feydakin

hmmm you have a cow when consumers paint all b&m's with the same brush but think its aok when an industry professional does the same to internet vendors?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/12/2005 11:48:48 AM
Author: oldminer
Well, seeing as the money has been paid, the stone is now yours. Without seeing the extent of the inclusion, no expert will profess to know how durable the stone will be or how brilliancy might be altered. Possibly there will be no impact at all, but no one can tell you that without seeing the stone.


It is a shame that we often see questions surrounding durability anbd beauty on diamonds that have been bought and paid for BEFORE the important issues are resolved.

Not always consumer protection laws may apply and/or the vendor may do the honorable thing.
Then there is always court until a judge rules there is no recovery there is always a chance.
I agree with getting the recomendation of a professional.
But my bottom line is that any decreased duribility issue that was not disclosed and discussed up front is unacceptable and a problem.


I agree 110% with the last part of your post.

 

[valeria101]

RocDoc !!!

If you sent the story to the "Journal" or "FAQ" it would be easier to refference.


I definitely agree that the "scare" tinge is barely avoidable. I wouldn''t know to brush that away better than you did

If there is a way to tell without seeing the stone if a second professional opinion is critical or not, I do not know what that could be. Buyer''s concern surely is one, regardless - pretty much as you say, as well.

 

[RockDoc]

Storm

I think you misunderstand me. I am not against B&M stores. I thought I qualified that there are decent and reputable stores as well as internet sellers.

Todd, and Rhino are among the best out there, and they carefully examine the stones they buy and offer for sale. They put a lot of time and effort into their buying and selling.

So do a lot of others. I am not painting them with the same brush as other sellers on the net. If you interpreted that way, I certainly didn''t intend that.

Purchasers should have their purchases checked, regardless of where they bought it. Where a consumer buys is his decision, but the sight unseen "risk" is one that should be considered more carefully.

On here as well as in other forums, I''ve been "preaching" about how all the facets of the stone should be checked. i.e. the 40 mystery facets as I call them. I''ve been doing this for quite a while.... about three years.If you''d like to read these a lot of them are in the older files of DT.

Now, the labs are moving to 3D technology and the AGS based on the posts by Paul indicate this wil be included in the criteria for their grading. GIA is responding too, although perhaps not as intently as AGS is.

I do appreciate your posts though...they are very well thought out, and understandable.

Regards

Rockdoc

 

[strmrdr]

RockDoc,
By using the scare tactics that you are in that post you are painting a picture that all vendors and in particular Internet vendors that a consumer sends money too before seeing the stone or having an appraiser see it are bad.

That is not the truth.
Lets be blunt here, people I trust say your trustworthy.
That means im inclined to trust you.
You know who those people are?
They are the very people that your ranting against who your saying consumers should never send money to unless an independent appraiser looks at the diamond first.

Interesting isnt it that they deem you trustworthy enough to send diamonds too without you paying for them and act on behalf of consumers but you dont trust them to do right by consumers.

That may not be what you intended but thats what you said.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

>>>Is this type of inclusion going to affect the performance of the stone?<<<


As far as the optical performance and visual presentation to the eye.....no.

As far as the durability aspect is concerned.....if it's a VS2 stone, the inclusion is of minor size and probably low threat nature. It most likely will have no to minor effect on the durability of the stone, depending on what it is.

The odds are great that it's no big deal. A professional analysis will let you know for sure.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

ok... *slips into waders*

following the tangent of the thread currently starting...

*insert Latin here* - is corrtect - Buyer Beware. To a newcomer to these boards... and until they have made a successful purchase... ALL vendors they come accross remain a risk... and like me... you stick around awhile and see what you can find out... and pick up an idea of how reliable a vendor is. IE those that seem to have earned the trust of the consumers... and those that have a bad rep about them... and alot of what RocDoc says i agree with. (tho i do appologise for making him shudder when i offer my opinions... but normally i do so, hoping to have someone with greater knowledge comfirm or correct what i say to futher my own knowledge - i find these stones very interesting, and want to know more. ok another fork in conversation so i with take a diversion back to the origonal direction)

I am not so much thinking that RocDoc is going in for scare tactics... but more general advise for first time buyers... they are green in this business - in a pool full of many sharks.. and so few (it seems) life preservers... and it pays, before leaping for the first time to go to an independant life preserver advisor to find out if what you are considering is worth what you are paying.

ok too much rambling... will stop

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/12/2005 4:28:20 PM
Author: valeria101

RocDoc !!!

If you sent the story to the ''Journal'' or ''FAQ'' it would be easier to refference.


I definitely agree that the ''scare'' tinge is barely avoidable. I wouldn''t know to brush that away better than you did

If there is a way to tell without seeing the stone if a second professional opinion is critical or not, I do not know what that could be. Buyer''s concern surely is one, regardless - pretty much as you say, as well.

Dear Ana

Thanks for your reply...

To issue an opinion about a diamond when you haven''t seen it, FOR A NOVICE depends on what information they are basing their conclusion on. Some consumers post very little information about the stone, and they get opinions when the real or complete facts aren''t really considered.

For a professional, making an opinion has a great liability to it. As such, most knowledgeable people won''t make a conclusion at all, or make one with a qualifying statement with it. Critics are held to be responsible and liable if they are considered expert.

The choice of whether or not to have the purchase checked is a decision that should be carefully considered by the consumer, which should be based on how much he really knows about the stone.

In this thread, there is concern about a feather extending into the pavilion. and assumption that because it has a VS-2 grading that it is not an issue. But the major labs to test for strain, nor do they report the direction of the inclusion in relation to the grain of the diamond. If there is red strain around that inclusion, which can''t be determined without seeing it, how can the consumer get an accurate conclusion?

As far as opinion without examination, accepting such advice, and the weight of the consideration is the consumers. If a consumer wishes to place BLIND Reliance in their seller, so be it. Is there a reason for that reliance? Is the seller a gemologist ? Will his opinion be accurate, if he isn''t a gemologist ? Is being a gemologist guarantee the relaince? In some cases, it''s ok.

Issuing an opinion with out seeing the stone, is like flying in the clouds were you can''t see. The pilot flying Instrument has to put his total trust in Air Traffic Control and the level of instrumentation in the plane. The same with diamonds. They are amazing creations of mother nature, and wonderous in their ability to sparkle,but they are individual, and as such a prudent buyer will consider any "testimony" about it based on the information available, and the level of expertise they have.

Thank you for your opinion that I am not trying to scare people. I am only bringing this opinion out for their consideration. In summation, I am only advising purchasers of being objective in their consideration of the various opinions that appear on threads.

Rockdoc

 

[Dancing Fire]

RockDoc
i also agree & disagree with you.

i agree with you that a big diamond purchase by the consumer, he/she should get a independent appraiser to check the stone.


i disagree with you saying" I shudder" when a poster gives advise on a stone that he/she haven't seen. because ,there are stones out there that that i know aren't any good by looking at the specs. for example, i'm not going to send you a 1ct RB with a diameter of 6.20 mm.,64% depth,extra thick girdle for you to look at,i'll go broke paying for your service if i keep sending you crappy stones .....my point is, there're stones that i don't need a pro to tell me it's a crappy stone.

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 2/13/2005 4:10:19 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
RockDoc
i also agree & disagree with you.

i agree with you that a big diamond purchase by the consumer, he/she should get a independent appraiser to check the stone.


i disagree with you saying'' I shudder'' when a poster gives advise on a stone that he/she haven''t seen. because ,there are stones out there that that i know aren''t any good by looking at the specs. for example, i''m not going to send you a 1ct RB with a diameter of 6.20 mm.,64% depth,extra thick girdle for you to look at,i''ll go broke paying for your service if i keep sending you crappy stones .....my point is, there''re stones that i don''t need a pro to tell me it''s a crappy stone.

Dancing ...Thaniks for the reply....

Generally people who think about sending me their potential purchase may in fact call me or email me with the specs.
Since most of the readers of the forum are trying to find the best stone, there are very, very few that need verification they are buying a less than fine stone.

I think most people who put forth a little time to read the educational and tutorial sections and the posts, can figure out what is and is not potential worth having checked out. As I wrote this is their decision, and not mine or anyone else''s.

Most consumers are selecting their stones to buy very carefully and aren''t even considering stones which obviously are of a particular quality level they want.

In the time I''ve been doing this, people contacting us and sending stones, are not providing me with stones that are "crappy".

Rockdoc

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Guess how they find stones that are not crappy Roc?

They get free advice first from here

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/13/2005 8:57:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Guess how they find stones that are not crappy Roc?


They get free advice first from here

Yep,
Id like to hear if one person that followed the advice given here and got a crappy diamond?
I havent heard of one.
But there have been several cases where someone bought a diamond we told them to avoid then were not happy with it.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 2/13/2005 8:57:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Guess how they find stones that are not crappy Roc?

They get free advice first from here

Well spoke.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 2/13/2005 8:57:16 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Guess how they find stones that are not crappy Roc?

They get free advice first from here

cut nut

how about free I-scope along with free advise but, make sure you send me the super size I-scope so i can get drunk on 5 shots instead of 15.