Old cut pricing

[Emeraldcutlover]

I know it's very difficult to do a "cost compare analysis" on old cuts, so I'm asking all of you for your expertise/experience. Can you give me an idea of what a GIA 3ct L/SI1 would cost or a EGL 3ct J/Vs2 or a GIA 3 ct I/SI1 or any other examples? (preferably over 3ct's if you know). Also - what is the rule of thumb when looking at a EGL graded stone? Is the color typically 2 shades lower by GIA standards? How about the clarity? Also, do you think any blue fl in old cuts lowers the price or is it a good thing (b/c makes it whiter)? Finally, I have read on here about "retailer" prices vs non-retailers. Which would be considered "non-retailer" prices? I think I am just stumped about the OEC pricing and feeling overwhelmed. Should I just pay the retailer price b/c they will be able to guide a consumer that is not that educated with this cut? I feel like I've done my homework (what I think I can) but I always seem to be wrong with my thoughts of what the pricing may be?? P.S. I've also learned that you cannot compare an OEC price to a Old Cushion one too?? This is exhausting!!! Thank you so much for all of our help. I really appreciate it!

 

[Rockdiamond]

Rule of thumb when looking at EGL graded diamonds: THROW OUT THE GRADE.
If you can't grade the diamond yourself, please make very sure you're comfortable with the seller. If they're telling you to trust the EGL grade.......they're peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining.
Although few retail sellers of older diamonds use GIA- EGL is more common for sellers of old stones- that's still not an excuse in my mind- nor does it protect the consumer. Having a properly graded diamond in such a large size is VERY important to the long term ownership experience IMO.
There's no workable "formula" as they can be the correct grade, 2 grades off, or 10 grades off- or anything in between. That is daunting to consumers.
In general , the most desirable diamonds do not get sent to any other lab besides GIA or AGSL by quality dealers.

You're correct that pricing OEC's is complicated.
Basically, they trade off the same price list that round diamonds to- while OMB's trade off the "Fancy List"

Is it worth it to pay a dealer for their expertise? That's really up to each buyer- however in my mind, uncertainly on such a large purchase is stressful.

 

[denverappraiser]

The test for who is a retailer is easy. If they'll sell to YOU, they're a retailer. If they're a dealer and they refer you to someone else, or possibly a list of others, they're a wholesaler (and those other folks are their retailers).

In the diamond business, lots of retailers call themselves something else. Most actually. Wholesalers, cutters, jobbers, importers, brokers, consultants, and a near endless list of other choices. Even appraisers. The problem is that 'retailer' has developed aa bad reputation for meaning 'expensive' and somehow 'wholesale' is taken to mean low prices. 'Taint so. Some are cheap and some aren't, but what they paint on the sign out front or write on the masthead of the website has NOTHING to do with it. They can charge whatever they want. You get to decide if you want to buy from them and you can use whatever reason YOU want. Pay attention to the details of deal being offered, the services being offered, and the terms and conditions of the deal at hand. Let 'em call themselves whatever they want.

 

[Dreamer_D]

ECL For a diamond that large I would not buy without an appraisal from a reputable PS appraiser. I know someone who had a very good experience with Dave Atlas, and others have used Neil Beatty and some other appraisers with good experiences. In my opinion that will set your mind at ease about color/clarity in the event of an EGL report -- EGL can be off by one grade or -- GULP -- five grades!! So getting an unbiased opinion is important.

The appraiser can help you a little in determining fair market value. But in my anecdotal experience helping about 3-4 people purchase large pricey OECs online and using appraisers to help inform their purchases, value estimates are not always accurate in my opinion -- speaking as someone who knows more than she should about what old cuts sell for on sites like ebay, and on sites like OWD, GOG, and JBEG. So in the end you sort of have to do your own research on value TOO. Buyer beware and all that jazz. You can look up EGL comps on OWD which in my opinion seems to be a good "ballpark" for what I consider full retail value. You can look on sites like Lang Antiques too for higher end retail, or JBEG for pricing in between. You can post here and ask us about ebay comps... but of course you must remember that very large OECs especially in high color are SO RARE that you may not be able to find any comps at all!!

And there is the problem with pricing old cuts that I think some vendor's don't fully acknowledge who specialize in modern diamonds: Lab reports for old cuts don't -- cannot! -- quantify cut quality. And it seems that appraisers are not much help in that regard either-- again, with the few anecdotal experiences I have been involved in, the appraisers did not have much to say about the cut quality or even flavour of cut/cut style. BUT from what I have observed, cut quality and style DOES drive pricing of old cuts. Really well cut stones, or stones that are rare for some reason -- very large, color, or a particular *type* of cut -- command a large premium that cannot easily be evaluated looking at RAP sheets or similar. *shurg* that's my observation and personal experience. You either need to educate yourself to the point where YOU can take the information you get from you appraiser and/or vendor and use it to help supplement your own knowledge. Or you have to just trust what you are told

If you want certainty, get an RB.

 

[jerichosmom]

EGL 3.55 K VS1 OEC mounted on a vintage platinum setting for $25K in Dec 2008. At that time I also looked at loose stones from SS and JBEG with similar stats (maybe a little smaller (SS) or lower color grade (JBEG) I still in the 3+ range). Mine was bought from KFK Jewelers in LA. Of course I've read of people spending less (and of course more) so this doesn't really help you much.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Also, do you think any blue fl in old cuts lowers the price or is it a good thing (b/c makes it whiter)? Finally, I have read on here about "retailer" prices vs non-retailers. Which would be considered "non-retailer" prices?

I believe fluor affects priving the same way that it affects RBs, but its more random Because of all those other factors I mentioned that seem to affect OEC pricing but not RB pricing.

I assume by "retailer" and "non-retailer" you are distinguishing between the secondary market and the primary? Not retailer/wholesaler as Neil interpreted?

I have noticed that pricing on old cuts goes like this:

Highest prices from boutique antique dealers who often sell completed pieces. Langs. Single Stone. JBEG is a little lower but it depends a little on the particular piece. These vendors cherry pick goodies, or in the case of SS make their own mounts for their stones. You pay for the "consierge service" if you will.

Next highest are diamond dealers like OWD and GOG. But pricing is all over the place and likely reflects the all over the place pricing from the wholesalers from whom OWD and GOG get their stones. Both have access to many of the same diamonds.

Next highest in my experience are estate dealers, most of whom have a pawn shop branch of their business and a retail branch that resells the stuff people pawn. I like this as a place to look for higher priced diamonds. My ring came from an estate dealer. Plummiecat got hers from an estate dealer. Demelza too. Charmy. Many others. Most of us bought them on ebay, but these estate dealers all have B&M shops as well. The risks here are NO lab reports usually, and sometimes poor quaity appraisals. But we have all been happy with our purchases and the pricing is about 30% to 50% lower than the higher end boutiques.

Finally a private sale is cheapest; buying from a private individual. But the rarity of large OECs makes this an unlikely proposition. Private sellers are easiest to find stones in the sub 1.5ct range.

 

[Emeraldcutlover]

Thank you: RockDiamond, Denverappraiser,DreamerD and Jerichosmom:

Yes - I wasn't sure if all of these were considered "retailers": i.e. GOG,JBEG,OWD's, etc. And if I were to go into NYC if they had "wholesalers", etc.... I was trying to see if a price on a Old European Cut: (EGL) 3.2ct J/VS2 was being compared to a RB etc pricing b/c I thought at $35k it seemed high???

I should note that it had a very large face up! So I was looking at the price then for a L/SI1 or a L/VS2... but was told not to compare b/c it is not comparable to that and that a EGL for clarity was usually right (therefore it would most likely indeed be a VS2).

The price range I was finding was on James Allen and they were all GIA certified and "Ideal Cut" from J/SI1 to K/VS2 (5 stones) and the 3.2 to 3.4ct. range (and these were all in the $34k - $36k range). So, these were all better colors (b/c GIA certified) and I guess all very good cuts b/c of the "Ideal" rating??/ So thus, I thought too much for a possible L/VS2???????

So the bottom line is that they told me to try and find an "OEC/J/VS2" in a 3ct range to comp..... I know that there are very reputable retailers out there and are well worth the money, so one could "trust" them and pay a premium for this factor. While I am willing to do this (now that I know more), I was too feel that I was asking way too many questions and that I should really do my "homework" to see if I thought it was a good price or not. I was planning on spending a good amount of money and I guess I was asking too many questions . PS On some stones, I didn't ask a question, just decided to "pass" since I felt personally it was too much money for "me" to spend on the ct weight and color I was being presented. I know there are probably exceptions to the rule but maybe there are just not that many out there so I should suck it up and pay what it is if I like it.

Again, I appreciate all of the information. I wish I had a good eye and could go on Ebay like you DreamerD, but I just don't trust myself. I know what visually I "like" but I would like to know that it is a bright, sparkly stone (no fish eye) for this amout. Of-course and I can send it to an appraiser, like you said, that I have seen both of those names you mentioned as being very reputable and helpful.

Thank you again.

 

[Rhino]

rockdiamond: "Like", denverappraiser: "Like" dreamer: "double Like"

I have to say ... the more I analyze OEC's the more I agree with these comments. I'm helping a couple of clients who are looking for a certain "look" in OEC's and regardless of the multitudes of OEC's I call in and have access to, the cherries are NOT easy to find. Truly they are needles in haystacks.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Emerald cut lover take heart in the fact that there are literally NO 3ct+ OECs on ebay, like maybe one or two, and they are not that great it seems. It is even hard to find ones over 1.5ct that are not being offered at very high, boughtique prices IMO.

When you move into the territory YOU are looking for, the rarity is something that is hard to fathom. There may be only a dozen stones that size on the market in the whole of the US! Compared to hundreds and hundreds of RBs. With things that rare, you can almost price it however you like!

Have you looked at http://www.langantiques.com? They have amazing and lovely rings in large carat weights.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Some comparables:

GIA J Si1 3.58ct:

http://www.langantiques.com/products/item/10-1-4887

GIA M VS2 4.03ct:

http://www.langantiques.com/products/item/10-3-4920

 

[Mara]

Damn if I was spending $35k I'd spend it on that 2nd link DD posted. NOMNOMNOM. 10mm, baby!

 

[justginger]

Dreamer, you are such a wealth of information -- don't ever leave, please.

I don't have anything constructive to add. I think pricing varies WILDLY by the individual stone, and comparing to modern cut pricing never works -- apples and oranges. I'd suggest contacting Adam at OWD, tell him your search parameters, ballpark budget, and wait to see what he comes back with. New stones literally arrive and depart every day and I think he'd have access to the largest database of antique stones to try to compare, apples to apples.

 

[Emeraldcutlover]

Hi-

Thank you again for trying to help me. I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. DreamerD - I did see those two that you put up but didn't think the 3.5ct (GIA J) was a good comp bc this was a 3.2 EGL J (so probably a L/M)??? ..The second one that was a GIA "M" which would most likely be a good comp right? But then you get a 4 ct instead of a 3.2 ct??? This is where my confusion was coming in. But like you said, I guess they can command whatever they want b/c there just aren't that many out there. UGH! I should just stick to EC's. lol


PS Again, DreamerD,Rhino, Mara, justginger - Many thanks again. I really appreciate the feedback.

 

[Mara]

Ditto calling Adam...he even has access to stones not listed on the site. Their inventory is huge. I'll be in NYC later this month and can't wait to see their goodies in person!

As for comps... as others have mentioned already the stock may just not be there for you to run extensive comps on things. Sometimes when I'm looking for a comp I can never quite compare 'apples to apples'. And also the cut quality of the stone itself, aka is it an old mine or a later OEC or early transitional, some may want to pay more for one vs the others...depending on what they are looking for. I feel like the market will command pricing, it's not as cut and dry as MRB's. Like if I was in the market and saw 3 stones with the same specs on paper, the cut of one vs another might entice me to pay more for the one I really want, knowing that it might be harder to find elsewhere. So IMO...just as a consumer is that specs on paper can get you part of the way there but then it comes down to how badly do you want what might be a needle in a haystack, or what pleases your eye.

 

[madelise]

Hi ECL!

You received great advice here. Having just purchased a stone similar to what you're looking for, I would highly recommend also contacting Jon at Good Old Gold (or as you know him from this thread, Rhino ;P). He found me an amazing comparible OEC with ridiculous performance to another one that I had my heart on. I had 2 fabulous stones to choose between! And the price did vary ALOT.. I think comparing prices goes out the window for OECs. If something is within budget and all you're looking for, buy it!


(the stone I mentioned is still up for sale.. And I still swoon often at it! If I hadn't forced myself to purchase one, I'd probably be still note fence to this day!!! It's the 3.2 ct L SI1 OEC.. It has a video linked that he made for me. It's seriously the most amazing thing ever.. And the price is really really reasonable! Comparable to some EBay and RubyLane rings of similar specs' prices..)