Royal Jewels

[sunshine996]

Thanks to all of you who answered my question! I wonder if HM has given any other older tiaras, that haven't been seen in many years, to her other family members.
Speaking of tiaras not seen in many years, I wish the Queen would fix the Strathmore Rose Tiara and bring it out of the vault!This tiara was given to the Queen Mum by her parents for her wedding. It is set in silver and gold, and has two settings: low and high. The low version is worn across the forehead, bandeau style, while the higher setting is worn like a traditional tiara, upon the head. Reportedly the roses can be removed and worn seperately.

It is also revealed in Roberts that the five diamonds flowers can be replaced by "5 single sapphires". Now this is version of the tiara I'd love to see (at least photographed)!

Bobby

I would also love to see pictures/it being worn. Perhaps Catherine will wear it someday. I hope so!

I also agree with JewelFreak, this tiara would have been much more feminine for the wedding, and it would've sparkled more! I understand why she chose the Halo Scroll: decent height, light weight, it's the "starter tiara" for the family, its history (bought for a commoner that became a Duchess, and then a Queen; a tiara that once belonged to a Scottish girl is perhaps a nod to the Scottish beginning of William and Catherine). But if she had worn the Strathmore Rose Tiara then the backstory would've been: a tiara bought for a common Scottish girl for her wedding to a Duke that would one day become King. So maybe she chose the halo because the Strathmore Rose really is in need of repair, not because of the tiara's history.

 

[sunshine996]

Happy 51st Birthday, Diana!

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Finally I found a clear close-up of Queen Mary's sapphire and diamond bandeau, which Princess Margaret wore on a couple of occasions. It's a pity that the current Queen hasn't loaned it to anyone...

 

[sunshine996]

Finally I found a clear close-up of Queen Mary's sapphire and diamond bandeau, which Princess Margaret wore on a couple of occasions. It's a pity that the current Queen hasn't loaned it to anyone...

Whoa, you found a wonderful close up Bobby! All of the other close ups that I have seen were very fuzzy. I like how the diamonds are set into a sunray pattern around the central sapphire. Is the tiara also convertable into a necklace?

I would love to see this tiara on Sophie, Catherine, Beatrice, or Eugenie. Sophie could use a new "standard" tiara and I think that she tends to like modern/art deco designs. Catherine could wear this one to match her engagement ring and she also tends to go towards modern/ art deco jewelry. Beatrice and Eugenie are unlikely to wear this tiara because of the slimming down of the working royals. But if they were to go to a tiara event, it would look good against Beatrice's red hair, and Eugenie has that vintage look about her that would really make the tiara look good.

It would be interesting to know who do you think could/should wear the tiara?

 

[JewelFreak]

It is also revealed in Roberts that the five diamonds flowers can be replaced by "5 single sapphires". Now this is version of the tiara I'd love to see (at least photographed)!

Bobby

Oh, me too, Bobby. It would be just beautiful w/sapphires! We'll never know for sure, of course, whether HM offered Catherine a choice of wedding tiaras or simply gave her the Halo one. Personally, I doubt Kate would have picked any based on its history; she's not a big jewel lover, so the Halo Tiara was the smallest of any we know is still in RF possession. Remember, at first she wanted to wear flowers in her hair, no tiara.

Nice photo of QM's sapphire & diamond bandeau, Sunshine. It looks great on P. Margaret & might on Catherine too, if she had a good tiara hairdo. I think the Yorkies are too young to carry off something that sophisticated but it might look very nice on Sophie, and nobody can deny she needs an alternative to her awkward one.

--- Laurie

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Whoa, you found a wonderful close up Bobby! All of the other close ups that I have seen were very fuzzy. I like how the diamonds are set into a sunray pattern around the central sapphire. Is the tiara also convertable into a necklace?

I would love to see this tiara on Sophie, Catherine, Beatrice, or Eugenie. Sophie could use a new "standard" tiara and I think that she tends to like modern/art deco designs. Catherine could wear this one to match her engagement ring and she also tends to go towards modern/ art deco jewelry. Beatrice and Eugenie are unlikely to wear this tiara because of the slimming down of the working royals. But if they were to go to a tiara event, it would look good against Beatrice's red hair, and Eugenie has that vintage look about her that would really make the tiara look good.

It would be interesting to know who do you think could/should wear the tiara?

sunshine996, the bandeau can't be worn as necklace. I think it is mentioned in THE book that most of Queen Mary's tiaras that she received as wedding presents (4/6, to be precise) could be worn as necklaces, while the later additions/modifications can't.
I think that if the Windsors are to make a pool of jewels to be worn by more than one lady in the family (i.e. start shearing) this one ought to be included in it. Out of the current members of the Royal Family that have worn tiaras so far, I'd love to see this bandeau on The Countess of Wessex and The Princess Royal. I think the former would look lovely with it, while the later has some sapphires to go with the bandeau. Perhaps either of the York Princesses can use it when both attend a tiara event (I DO hope they will go to such events and a smalling down of the RF doesn't have to do with wearing tiaras and jewels, if the rumor is true).
As we've noted before, The Duchess of Cornwall looks better in larger pieces and because of HRH's current position within the family, I'd rather she is the only one to be identified with certain jewels.

Bobby

Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Oh, me too, Bobby. It would be just beautiful w/sapphires! We'll never know for sure, of course, whether HM offered Catherine a choice of wedding tiaras or simply gave her the Halo one. Personally, I doubt Kate would have picked any based on its history; she's not a big jewel lover, so the Halo Tiara was the smallest of any we know is still in RF possession. Remember, at first she wanted to wear flowers in her hair, no tiara.

Nice photo of QM's sapphire & diamond bandeau, Sunshine. It looks great on P. Margaret & might on Catherine too, if she had a good tiara hairdo. I think the Yorkies are too young to carry off something that sophisticated but it might look very nice on Sophie, and nobody can deny she needs an alternative to her awkward one.

--- Laurie

If we believe that Catherine Middleton was offered choice of wedding tiara, then we can also believe that Mary Donaldson and Mette-Marit Tjessem Høiby were asked which tiara they'd like to receive from their future in-laws. The same applies to María Teresa Mestre y Batista and Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz. The only other choice they had (at least IMO) was not to wear a tiara. Of course, we know that there were a couple of choices for Máxima Zorreguieta, but the family she married into is different when it comes to their jewels.

History and sentiment of the tiaras are left to those who make the final choice - i.e. the owner.

On another note - I don't agree with the statement that the Strathmore tiara was a wedding present to a commoner who became Duchess and then Queen. Lord Strathmore gave the tiara to his daughter (who was a little less common than Miss Middleton), who was destined at that time to lead the quite life of a naval officer's wife, who was also HRH The Duchess of York. At the time of the wedding (1923) Prince Albert was set to become King.
OTOH, the Halo tiara was a present to the same woman when it was clear that the was to become Queen. There is a slight difference and I hope you see it.

Bobby

 

[JewelFreak]

If we believe that Catherine Middleton was offered choice of wedding tiara, then we can also believe that Mary Donaldson and Mette-Marit Tjessem Høiby were asked which tiara they'd like to receive from their future in-laws. The same applies to María Teresa Mestre y Batista and Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz. The only other choice they had (at least IMO) was not to wear a tiara. Of course, we know that there were a couple of choices for Máxima Zorreguieta, but the family she married into is different when it comes to their jewels.
Bobby

Bobby, I'm not sure if you mean you don't think those ladies were offered tiara choices, or you do. I imagine it depends on family tradition, the personality of the owner (queen), and the number of tiaras they have. Each family could be different, just as any of ours are (minus the tiaras, sadly). In the case of Queen Elizabeth, I can easily see her picking, say, 2 tiaras she thought suitable for a new Princess and letting her choose the one she liked. Of course, HM might also have simply done the deciding herself. For others farther down the line, such as Sophie or Beatrice, she might not offer a choice, but given them one she picked out. If a RF hasn't many tiaras, then obviously the queen might not provide options. Unless one of us marries into a RF , I guess we'll never know -- and even then, we'd only know about that particular family.

--- Laurie

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Bobby, I'm not sure if you mean you don't think those ladies were offered tiara choices, or you do. I imagine it depends on family tradition, the personality of the owner (queen), and the number of tiaras they have. Each family could be different, just as any of ours are (minus the tiaras, sadly). In the case of Queen Elizabeth, I can easily see her picking, say, 2 tiaras she thought suitable for a new Princess and letting her choose the one she liked. Of course, HM might also have simply done the deciding herself. For others farther down the line, such as Sophie or Beatrice, she might not offer a choice, but given them one she picked out. If a RF hasn't many tiaras, then obviously the queen might not provide options. Unless one of us marries into a RF , I guess we'll never know -- and even then, we'd only know about that particular family.

--- Laurie

That's exactly what I mean - that they were not given choice. Even with Elizabeth II's extensive private collection, I can't see her picking 2 or 3 tiaras and asking "Catherine/Whoever, dear, which or these you'd like to wear?". Of course, we can't know for sure and can only speculate (something I find pointless).

 

[JewelFreak]

Not horribly important, except that I'm interested in royalty as people, in addition to hangers for jewels & designer clothes. Queens are human mothers-in-law as well as monarchs & particularly in the case of the wife of an heir to the throne, I can easily imagine one taking, say, 2 appropriate ones from the "spares" (hoo, wouldn't it be wonderful?), and saying, "Which do you like best?" (Same as regular m-i-ls might do with heirloom plates, chairs, or brooches.) Depending on personality, I can also picture a queen deciding herself what is best for the d-i-l (or if she isn't too fond of her). If there are enough family tiaras to choose from, of course. Speculation is useless but not always pointless, though it isn't a world-shaking issue.

--- Laurie

 

[sunshine996]

Oh, me too, Bobby. It would be just beautiful w/sapphires! We'll never know for sure, of course, whether HM offered Catherine a choice of wedding tiaras or simply gave her the Halo one. Personally, I doubt Kate would have picked any based on its history; she's not a big jewel lover, so the Halo Tiara was the smallest of any we know is still in RF possession. Remember, at first she wanted to wear flowers in her hair, no tiara.

Nice photo of QM's sapphire & diamond bandeau, Sunshine. It looks great on P. Margaret & might on Catherine too, if she had a good tiara hairdo. I think the Yorkies are too young to carry off something that sophisticated but it might look very nice on Sophie, and nobody can deny she needs an alternative to her awkward one.

--- Laurie

On another note - I don't agree with the statement that the Strathmore tiara was a wedding present to a commoner who became Duchess and then Queen. Lord Strathmore gave the tiara to his daughter (who was a little less common than Miss Middleton), who was destined at that time to lead the quite life of a naval officer's wife, who was also HRH The Duchess of York. At the time of the wedding (1923) Prince Albert was set to become King.
OTOH, the Halo tiara was a present to the same woman when it was clear that the was to become Queen. There is a slight difference and I hope you see it.

Bobby

Oh yes I know that there is a difference. I just gave an oversimplified explanation.

Another tiara that I would like to see worn again is the Rundel tiara. It's probably long gone (broken down, sold, what have you. ).

And I have another question, is this Ginko Leaf tiara the Queen Mother's? If it is, I wonder what happened to it.

 

[BubblyBear]

Where did you find that photo of the ginkgo tiara? I have never seen it before.

 

[sunshine996]

Where did you find that photo of the ginkgo tiara? I have never seen it before.

I'm sorry, but I exactly don't know. Probably somewhere on the internet. I'll see if I can find were I found it and post a link.

 

[Gabriellehb]

I reckon that when Beatrice & Eugenie get married they will do so in their mother's tiara, the Garrard's one that was a wedding present to Sarah. The other junior members of the royal family have tended to wear their mother's tiara's - think Zara Phillips and Sarah Chatto.

 

[JewelFreak]

I love the Rundell tiara too; so elegant. It no longer exists, sadly. Queen Alexandra left it to her daughter, Princess Victoria, who "disposed of it." Don't know if that means sold, broke it up & re-used the stones, or what, but it hasn't been seen since.

I've never seen the gingko tiara either & can't find anything on it. Bobby -- as our ultimate Wise Man, have you come across any info on it?

--- Laurie

 

[sunshine996]

Where did you find that photo of the ginkgo tiara? I have never seen it before.

I'm sorry, but I exactly don't know. Probably somewhere on the internet. I'll see if I can find were I found it and post a link.

I tired to find where I found the tiara picture, but no avail!

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Oh yes I know that there is a difference. I just gave an oversimplified explanation.

Another tiara that I would like to see worn again is the Rundel tiara. It's probably long gone (broken down, sold, what have you. ).

And I have another question, is this Ginko Leaf tiara the Queen Mother's? If it is, I wonder what happened to it.

You and I (and most posters here, I'm sure) are aware of these differences, yet there are other people who are not and they might read this simplified version and take it for the extended/full story. You understand that I want this thread to be as informative as possible, without misleading people

About the Ginko tiara - This is the first time I see this particular jewel. However, I had seen similar photos of tiaras made by Boucheron in the last years of Queen Victoria's reign (Consuelo Vanderbilt's, f.e.) before and made a brief search. Obviously I was right, as this led me to this site (Link), which IDs the tiara as Boucheron, the Queen Mother's diamond coronet 1901. Apparently the latest British "example" is not the Queen Mother we need. Someone help me with a list of Queens mothers of Monarchs that were alive in 1901, please.

Bobby

 

[sunshine996]

Oh yes I know that there is a difference. I just gave an oversimplified explanation.

Another tiara that I would like to see worn again is the Rundel tiara. It's probably long gone (broken down, sold, what have you. ).

And I have another question, is this Ginko Leaf tiara the Queen Mother's? If it is, I wonder what happened to it.

You and I (and most posters here, I'm sure) are aware of these differences, yet there are other people who are not and they might read this simplified version and take it for the extended/full story. You understand that I want this thread to be as informative as possible, without misleading people

About the Ginko tiara - This is the first time I see this particular jewel. However, I had seen similar photos of tiaras made by Boucheron in the last years of Queen Victoria's reign (Consuelo Vanderbilt's, f.e.) before and made a brief search. Obviously I was right, as this led me to this site (Link), which IDs the tiara as Boucheron, the Queen Mother's diamond coronet 1901. Apparently the latest British "example" is not the Queen Mother we need. Someone help me with a list of Queens mothers of Monarchs that were alive in 1901, please.

Bobby

Misleading people is the last thing that I want to do. In the future I will try to be more informative.

As for a list of Queen Mothers that were alive in 1901:

Dagmar of Denmark (also Empress Maria Feodorovna of Russia; became Queen Mother in 1894)
Clémentine of Orléans (Princess of Bulgaria; became Queen Mother in 1865)
Margherita of Italy (became Queen Mother in 1900)
Maria Pia of Savoy (Queen of Portugal; became Queen Mother in 1889)
Maria Christina of Austria (Queen of Spain; technically became Queen Mother in 1906)

I hope this helped!

 

[sunshine996]

Oh yes I know that there is a difference. I just gave an oversimplified explanation.

Another tiara that I would like to see worn again is the Rundel tiara. It's probably long gone (broken down, sold, what have you. ).

And I have another question, is this Ginko Leaf tiara the Queen Mother's? If it is, I wonder what happened to it.

You and I (and most posters here, I'm sure) are aware of these differences, yet there are other people who are not and they might read this simplified version and take it for the extended/full story. You understand that I want this thread to be as informative as possible, without misleading people

About the Ginko tiara - This is the first time I see this particular jewel. However, I had seen similar photos of tiaras made by Boucheron in the last years of Queen Victoria's reign (Consuelo Vanderbilt's, f.e.) before and made a brief search. Obviously I was right, as this led me to this site (Link), which IDs the tiara as Boucheron, the Queen Mother's diamond coronet 1901. Apparently the latest British "example" is not the Queen Mother we need. Someone help me with a list of Queens mothers of Monarchs that were alive in 1901, please.

Bobby

Misleading people is the last thing that I want to do. In the future I will try to be more informative.

As for a list of Queen Mothers that were alive in 1901:

Dagmar of Denmark (also Empress Maria Feodorovna of Russia; became Queen Mother in 1894)
Clémentine of Orléans (Princess of Bulgaria; became Queen Mother in 1865)Margherita of Italy (became Queen Mother in 1900)
Maria Pia of Savoy (Queen of Portugal; became Queen Mother in 1889)
Maria Christina of Austria (Queen of Spain; technically became Queen Mother in 1906)

I hope this helped!

I have made a mistake* with Clémentine of Orléans becoming Queen Mother, she was never Queen and married off her children, to become Consorts, to reigning houses across Europe.

* I wish that I could edit my posts/comments after a submit them!

 

[JewelFreak]

The "gingko" tiara appears in many places online, always identified as the "Queen Mother's tiara," in one case the "Queen Mum's tiara." Most credit the site "The Jewelry Editor," which shows it with the same name but no sourcing or other info. I could be wrong -- correct me if so, please -- but I think I recall reading that the title "Queen Mother" was invented for Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother because she disliked the commonly used term "Queen Dowager." Obviously we think of her in relation to that tiara. Other sites seem to have picked up this provenance without verifying it if that's possible. Probable, as Bobby says, that "Queen Mother" could be used now as a general term for other Dowager Queens.

If that tiara did belong to QEQM there sure don't appear to be photos of her ever wearing it. Or, if it was made in 1901 as stated, of whoever owned it before her. Maybe she -- or another Queen Dowager -- used its stones for other jewelry.

Sunshine -- you can edit your posts after submitting them. See the top right-hand section of the post square, where it says, Delete, Edit, Post Reply, etc.? Just click the Edit button. I think you get 30 minutes after posting something to change it; after that it's no longer possible.

--- Laurie

P.S. Thanks for putting this question up. It's interesting & I would love to see anything you folks come up with on it.

 

[prince.of.preslav]

I have made a mistake* with Clémentine of Orléans becoming Queen Mother, she was never Queen and married off her children, to become Consorts, to reigning houses across Europe.

* I wish that I could edit my posts/comments after a submit them!

Thanks for the list, sunshine996! It helps, though I still can't think who this Queen Mother might've been. I simply can't think of anyone who has worn something similar. Do you know if there were any Queen Mothers in 1901 from the German states or out of Europe (Brazil, f.e.)?

About Princess Clémentine - To be absolutely correct, Ferdinand I was not yet Tsar/King at the time of his mother's death (1907). Also, HRH was not a Princess of Bulgaria at any stage of her life. And I don't think she would've commissioned a new tiara at that (final) stage of her life. Another thing - of all her children, only Ferdinand held a title of Sovereignty

Another minor detail - Maria Feodorovna became Empress Mother at the death of her husband, Alexander III.

Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

The "gingko" tiara appears in many places online, always identified as the "Queen Mother's tiara," in one case the "Queen Mum's tiara." Most credit the site "The Jewelry Editor," which shows it with the same name but no sourcing or other info. I could be wrong -- correct me if so, please -- but I think I recall reading that the title "Queen Mother" was invented for Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother because she disliked the commonly used term "Queen Dowager." Obviously we think of her in relation to that tiara. Other sites seem to have picked up this provenance without verifying it if that's possible. Probable, as Bobby says, that "Queen Mother" could be used now as a general term for other Dowager Queens.
[...]

There are portraits of both Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary labeled as The Queen Mother of the United Kingdom. Two example from outside the UK are Queen Elena of Romania (nee of Greece & Denmark), who was known as MS Regina mamă Elena (HM Queen Mother Elena) and Queen Frederike of Greece, who used a similar style to that of QEQM. The only difference between Queen Mothers and Queen Dowagers is that the former is the mother of the current is King/Queen, while the latter is not. An example of a Queen Dowager would be Queen Adelaide, Queen Victoria's aunt.

Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Just remembered something!!! I know that in The Queen's Diamonds Roberts writes that the Greville tiara (the one that now commonly worn by The Duchess of Cornwall) was made in 1921 using stones from a tiara that had been made for Mrs. Greville in 1901. Perhaps the "ginkgo tiara" is the original jewel? I know that the original tiara is illustrated in the book, so anyone who has it (Lady Maria?) can confirm/deny my theory!

Best,
Bobby

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Happy Birthday Your Majesty! May there be many, many happy returns, Ma'am!

 

[prince.of.preslav]

Happy Birthday to a very elegant Prince! May there be many, many happy returns, Your Royal Highness!

 

[JewelFreak]

Just remembered something!!! I know that in The Queen's Diamonds Roberts writes that the Greville tiara (the one that now commonly worn by The Duchess of Cornwall) was made in 1921 using stones from a tiara that had been made for Mrs. Greville in 1901. Perhaps the "ginkgo tiara" is the original jewel? I know that the original tiara is illustrated in the book, so anyone who has it (Lady Maria?) can confirm/deny my theory!
Bobby

I don't have the book, Bobby, but saw that quote from it all over the place -- you may have the solution to the mystery. I'm still curious, if that is true, about whom the tiara came from originally.

The only difference between Queen Mothers and Queen Dowagers is that the former is the mother of the current is King/Queen, while the latter is not.

Almost true. A Queen Dowager is the widow of a king and a Queen Mother the mother of a reigning monarch and former Queen Consort; therefore Queen Mothers are Queen Dowagers but not all Queen Dowagers are Queen Mothers. The Duchess of Kent, for instance, was never Queen, so when Victoria acceded to the throne, couldn't be titled Queen Mother. Q. Mary would have been Queen Mother (and Queen Dowager) while George VI was King, but after his death, would only have been QD. (She never took either title, though, through her life was styled Her Majesty Queen Mary.) I don't know where I read that the QM title was thought up for QEQM; obviously incorrect -- according to the papers when she died, she thought it a "horrid title." Queen Dowager, I'm sure, appealed even less -- and Q. Mary still being alive when she aquired it, there would have been 2 of them, even though Mary didn't use the term.

In QEQM's funeral, both terms were used: "Thus it hath pleased Almighty God to take out of this transitory life unto His Divine Mercy the late Most High, Most Mighty and Most Excellent Princess Elizabeth, Queen Dowager and Queen Mother...."

 

[prince.of.preslav]

You're right, Laurie! I thought that it was obvious that a Queen Mother can only a previous Queen Consort who is also the mother of the present monarch and who has not divorced. Thanks for adding the phrasing used at Queen Elizabeth's funeral. I wonder if this was also used at Queen Alexandra and Queen Mary's funerals? But this is a bit off-topic...

I'm still looking forward to replies about the 1901 Boucheron tiara here and on The Royal Forums.

Bobby

 

[JewelFreak]

Me too, Bobby. I'm very curious about that tiara.

--- Laurie

 

[sunshine996]

Just remembered something!!! I know that in The Queen's Diamonds Roberts writes that the Greville tiara (the one that now commonly worn by The Duchess of Cornwall) was made in 1921 using stones from a tiara that had been made for Mrs. Greville in 1901. Perhaps the "ginkgo tiara" is the original jewel? I know that the original tiara is illustrated in the book, so anyone who has it (Lady Maria?) can confirm/deny my theory!

Best,
Bobby

That must be it! It was an interesting and unusual tiara, I wonder what it looked like when worn.

And thank you both for clearing up those details!

JewelFreak you are welcome! I was wondering about this tiara for a while and thought that one of you must know about it.

Happy Birthday to Queen Sonja and Prince Michael of Kent!!! Many more are sure to come!

 

[AmayasV]

Happy Birthday to HRH Princess Chulabhorn Walailak ,the youngest daughter of HM King Bhumibol Adulyadej and HM Queen Sirikit of Thailand.