SI1 issue - help !

[TLS]

I need an opinion..

I found a ring that fits almost all of my criteria. I want to go with an SI1 that is completely and utterly eye clean. I have been told that the diamond in question is definitely eye clean. Upon further review with a very nice helpful woman who was staring at the diamond very intently I was told that virtually nobody would be able to see the tiny white inclusion under the table...however she has extremely keen vision and said the only way she could see absolutely anything at all is if she rolled it to a very specific angle and stared very intently from 6 inches away and even then that it was like a speck of dust, a tiny tiny tiny itty bitty little speck of dust.

She believes no one else would ever be able to see it and she can see inclusions in almost anything with her obviously fantastic vision.

They are so confident i will love it and have no issue with it, tht they willl pay for shiipping back and forth.

Now what to do, would you take it? Now I am a complete wreck!

 

[fortheloveofdiamonds]

Date: 12/4/2004 10:21:24 AM
Author:TLS
I need an opinion..

I want to go with an SI1 that is completely and utterly eye clean

I know that most people will probably disagree with me, but IMO, there exist almost no diamonds in the SI1 category that are "completely and utterly eye clean" from all angles. That said, some ppl don''t mind if they can only see the inclusion in the right light and at a specific angle. If the stone is in your budget and otherwise perfect and you don''t mind the specific angle inclusion dilemma, go for it. If not, wait for another "eye-clean" SI1 or go with a VS2!

However, this jeweler seems pretty confident you won''t be able to see it. Take advantage of their back and forth shipping offer and check it out for yourself. What do you really have to lose???

 

[blueroses]

If they will pay for shipping back and forth I would go for it and check it out....you can always return it if it''s not eye clean for you!

SI1s are tricky.....hope this one sparkles and works for you!

 

[moremoremore]

Loveofdiamonds: We must go to the same eye doctor! LOL... I have seen inclusions in a couple of vs2s...and I''ve never seen an eye clean si1 in person...although I do think there are some out there...

Having a white inclusion is half the battle! Since it sounds like you''re buying from a reputable co and they''ll pay for shipping, what''s the prob bob? You have nothing to lose. If you can see an inclusion...then return it..

 

[reena]

i would say to check it out. here's the thing. my stone is a VS2. it has a teensy black crystal on the edge of the table. neither mark (who sold me the stone) nor leon mege (who set the stone) believes me, but i can see it with my naked eye. (MMM believes me though.

) it's not obvious, but under circumstances similar to those you described (ie, tilting the stone and looking hard for it), it's definitely there.

the thing is? i love my stone so much that i don't care. it's like a tiny freckle that lets me know it's mine. (plus, i know that no normal human being looking at my ring would ever notice it in a million years.)

so, i would say to take a look at it. first off, you might not be able to see it at all. but even if you can detect it after looking at it just the right way, if you truly love the way the diamond looks you may decide that it doesn't bother you enough to reject the stone.

Edited to add: MMM--jinx!

 

[fortheloveofdiamonds]

Date: 12/4/2004 10:40:28 AM
Author: moremoremore
Loveofdiamonds: We must go to the same eye doctor! LOL... I have seen inclusions in a couple of vs2s...and I''ve never seen an eye clean si1 in person...although I do think there are some out there...

MMM and Reena! Few I thought I was gonna get ripped! LOL! MMM i''ve had the same exact experience from looking at stones over the course of the last four months! Only once did I see an inclusion in a VS2 though, and it was small that it took the the j and perfect tilt and lighting and you had to KNOW exactly where it was. SOOO, that is how I got my affinity for a VS2!

 

[TLS]

Hi All,

Here is a link to the stone I am thinking of getting. Can you take a look at the inclusion and let me know what you think?

thanks


http://www.goodoldgold.com/1_39ct_h_si1_h%26a.htm

 

[wonka27]

Here is a link to the diamond I purchased. If you look at the inclusion in my stone, it is a little bigger looking, and I have yet to see it myself! And I''ve looked and looked at a variety of angles and lights.

I think you''ll be ok

 

[fortheloveofdiamonds]

I''ve heard nothing but good things about GOG, they are truly a class act....the stone is totally worth a look IMO!

 

[solange]

I have a 4.10 carat round SI2 that I bought from Whiteflash. The cut is Ideal but I was concerned about visible inclusions. I spoke to Brian the cutter and told him I would pay more for a better stone if this was not eye clean. He assured me that it was as did the appraiser.

I have had the stone several months and have not been able to find a visible inclusion from any angle. I can easily see them with a 10 power loupe but not with the naked eye although I know where they are. Of course I saved a lot by buying an SI2 in this size but it was an upgrade from my engagement ring which was also a good size so there was no point in getting a better stone in the same size as my original ring.

Since damonds, with rare exception, are not a good investment and you are very unlikely to get anything near what you paid if you try to sell it, my feeling is to get the best cut, best color , best looking stone in the largest size you want as long as it is eye clean and the inclusions do not hamper the durability or refraction of the stone.

I know it is hard to fnd an Ideal cut SI2 in this size but they obviously do exist. You can get a lot more for your money with an SI stone. I know that in other cuts inclusions are more visible but if you have to look so very carefully to find it, you will be getting a lot more for your money and unless you are a purist and it will bother you forever, it is worth considering.

GOG has an excellent reputation and i am sure they would not go to this expense if it were not an exceptional stone. There is no point in them going to the trouble and expense ofsending out a stone that is very likely to be returned. I also understand that it is more difficut to see inclusions in round stones than in other shapes. Best of luck.

 

[TLS]

thanks everyone, i am hoping for the best.. I will let you know how it turns out.

the cut is coming out as a 1.5 on the hca. Jonathan also told me it is a "high" H, closer to a G in color, which makes me feel good too since I did not want to go below that.

I am still paranoid though about the inclusion. very nervous about that....

what do you think about the diameter, is this going to look pretty big? my ring size is a 4.5.

 

[strmrdr]

Even though im having a big disagreement with Jonathon right now on how he is handling some issues if he is willing to eat the shipping if it isnt eye clean to you that means that he truely believes it is and that you will be happy with it.
imho its worth getting it in and looking it over.

 

[TLS]

strmrdr - what kind of issues?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Here''s the stone I bought from GOG

TLS,

I bought this 3 ct H SI 1, from GOG. jonathan called the stone eye clean and so did the apraiser, (chris) from dave atlas and i can''t see anything without a loupe. but i know it''s probably not eye clean to MMM and REENA, but of course they have younger pair of eyes.

 

[Daniela]

You probably won't see this inclusion, and if you do, it likley won't bother you. Would some people be able to see it? Yes. I'm one of them, just like MMM and Reena. Will it be offensive? My prediction is probably not.

Only trust your own eyes, though, and see it for yourself (if they are willing to pay for shipping). I sent back and upgraded an SI-1 from GOG that they told me was eye-clean because I didn't think it actually was, so this is why I'm saying that you honestly won't know until you get it.

Edited to add: Unlike Dancing Fire, I didn't my original diamond to an appraiser, whom I think would have been more critical. In retrospect, that would have avoided confusion, but it also would have cost me a couple hundred bucks, so I think that IDEAL situation would be to be able to trust the vendor's eyes.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Does it need to be eye-clean from the pavillion side for you to consider it "completely and utterly eye-clean"?

 

[Mara]

I have to pop in and say that I am a huge believer in SI stones and I hope to never again have to pay the premium for a VS stone. Having had a VS stone, my hubby has a VS stone and I have 3 SI stones...I, hands down, love a great SI stone. And YES they are out there...completely and utterly eye clean to even picky eyes. You just have to find them. I work with WhiteFlash mostly and Brian has a hawk-eye in terms of inclusions. My big stone is an SI1 and I have yet to see one speck of anything in this ring and trust me, I looked! He promised me I would see nothing and he was right. There will even be some VS stones that have slightly visible inclusions, it really just depends on the grader and the day they are having! So nothing is guaranteed unless maybe FL but even then FL stones HAVE inclusions, just not visible at magnification.

Anyway, I'd see the stone if the shipping will be free if it doesnt' work out and keep an open mind. I am dying to find a great H SI2 stone for my next upgrade, you get a great break on pricing....and I have seen some amazing SI2's that are eye-clean to me because all you see is that amazing sparkle of a well-cut stone! The cut does make a difference. Oh and lastly, I prefer white inclusions, they are harder to see for the most part than black carbon. But if a black carbon speck is against the girdle and you can prong-set it or similar, then it won't be a problem. So it's not just the inclusions but also where they are located.

My two cents! Let us know what happens.

 

[TLS]

Mara & Everyone, thanks so much for your feedback. I have read postings from many of you and consider you all to be extremely knowledgeable, so I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I feel really fortunate that I found this forum. I feel bad for all the people that blindly walk into a purchase like this and buy without having done the research, but at the same time most people I know feel I have gone a little overboard at this point with my research! Oh well! I really enjoy it, even though it can be frustrating at times.

I really hope this stone turns out to be good. I will really be disappointed if I am able to find the inclusion. My heart sank when I heard that she was able to find the inclusion after staring very intently at the ring and turning it.... prior to that I was pretty confident it was eye clean based on what i heard... so anyway, I am really hoping for the best here. She did say that she wouldn''t have any issue with this stone and that most people would never be able to see it... but I am not most people and I am concerned that I will be able to see it

I agree that SI1''s are a great value if you find the right one. That is why I basically have refused to pay the extra money for a vs2. I just don''t want to pay for clarity I can''t see... but at the same time, that offers a little more peace of mind which would be nice (especially with an internet purchase).

Based on all my reading I was under the impression that it would much easier to find an eye clean SI1, because I thought the majority were... but I am also learning that people have different interpretations of eye clean.

thanks everyone, I will let you know how it turns out.

Also to Rank Amateur - I am not really very concerned about the pavilion, just the crown. Unless there is some inclusion in the pavilion that were to cause a reflection in the crown? If the table of this diamond were "cleaner" I would feel better... darn, why can''t these inclusions ever end up in the pavilion???

Also - if an SI1 does truly have a visible inclusion shouldn''t it really be classified as an SI2.... just my opinion, but I am no expert.

 

[diamond island]

I agree, SI 1 stones can be great and much more affordable. I have been looking for my special diamond for over a year and have looked at a lot of stones. I am pretty analytical and dont like imperfection and convinced myself of getting a VS1, pretty much guarentees eye clean. But after looking at a bunch of SI 1''s I have noticed, these can be great stones. Plus some of SI 1 inclusions can only be seen table down from the pavillion.

Of course dark inclusions are easier to see than transparent crystals/needles/clouds. Remember dark inclusions are from other minerals and not diamond, whereas, crystals/needles/clouds are actually small diamonds inclusions. Also, crystals and clouds, although are true transparent inclusions, can reflect off (because of refractory nature) a brown color giving it look of a dark (NOT BLACK) inclusions look. Dont confuse these as dark imperfections, these are actually dimaond inclusions that just look brown. Personally dont like any feathers, which are actually fractures in the stone. Also, feathers are much more easy too see, personally. Needles are hard to see so these are better. Generally speaking, larger stones in SI 1 are easier to see inclusions than smaller stones and are allowed to have more inclusions and still be SI 1. Some SI 1 are definitely better than others.

I just picked up a 2 ct J SI 1 eight star. I can see the crystal inclusion from the pavillion but definately not table up. maybe you can say it is because of the eightstar cut but I cant say that for certain.

This is only my opinion.

 

[Mara]

One last comment....my original e-ring stone was VS1. The stone I got the 2nd time around is an SI1. When I got my first stone, I was always looking for the inclusions. My appraiser pointed them out so I knew where they were but I couldn't really find them unless I had the loupe and some great lighting. Possibly it was because I trusted my vendor so implicitly, but when I got the 2nd stone, I didn't even bother to look for the inclusions at that loupe magnitude. The stone blew me away when I saw it, and hands down beat my other stone in terms of beauty, fire, scint, all of the great things we diamond nuts look for. I never even sat down with the thing to try to use the cert to map the inclusions. To this day, about 9 months later I still haven't! I definitely cannot see them with my naked eye, I get so distracted with all the sparkles it isn't even worth it.

I'll leave with you a comment my appraiser made on my VS original stone. I said ...I cant even find the inclusions. She was holding the stone with naked eye and said..'I found them without a loupe'. I was amazed and she said 'oh don't worry, I'm trained to look for them'. So that told me something in itself, stare at these things long enough, day in and day out and you'll be able to pick them out in any stone probably. So when the vendor says if you stare at it long enough you can find them....I would venture to say their eyes are far more experienced than yours or mine.

Anyhow, I wouldn't worry that much. There ARE some great eye-clean stones SI's out there...I hope you found one! Keep an open mind.

Best of luck!

 

[Jennifer5973]

Date: 12/5/2004 3:26:40 AM
Author: Mara
One last comment....my original e-ring stone was VS1. The stone I got the 2nd time around is an SI1. When I got my first stone, I was always looking for the inclusions. My appraiser pointed them out so I knew where they were but I couldn't really find them unless I had the loupe and some great lighting. Possibly it was because I trusted my vendor so implicitly, but when I got the 2nd stone, I didn't even bother to look for the inclusions at that loupe magnitude. The stone blew me away when I saw it, and hands down beat my other stone in terms of beauty, fire, scint, all of the great things we diamond nuts look for. I never even sat down with the thing to try to use the cert to map the inclusions. To this day, about 9 months later I still haven't! I definitely cannot see them with my naked eye, I get so distracted with all the sparkles it isn't even worth it.

I'll leave with you a comment my appraiser made on my VS original stone. I said ...I cant even find the inclusions. She was holding the stone with naked eye and said..'I found them without a loupe'. I was amazed and she said 'oh don't worry, I'm trained to look for them'. So that told me something in itself, stare at these things long enough, day in and day out and you'll be able to pick them out in any stone probably. So when the vendor says if you stare at it long enough you can find them....I would venture to say their eyes are far more experienced than yours or mine.

Anyhow, I wouldn't worry that much. There ARE some great eye-clean stones SI's out there...I hope you found one! Keep an open mind.

Best of luck!

To add to what Mara said and cite something that Jonathan has on his website when he talks about SI stones, even YOU may be able to see your SI inclusion after you know your stone and STARE at it for many hours admiring it and getting to know it--but NO ONE (ok--maybe an appraiser

) will EVER see the inclusion...I really would bet on that. Even the super sight people (like our friends MMM and reena

) in a normal ten-second viewing of a well cut ring (typical of what most people see when they look at it), would not see anthing but sparkle.

I just think SI1-2 are the way to go...you save so much $$$...money that can be spent on other things, like more diamond jewelry!

[$$)]

Note: I can understand wanting the VS--we all have our personal standards for things--from cars to diamonds to where we live, etc.--and I can appreciate someone wanting a VS clarity and really having nothing in the stone and feeling good about it. Now, VVS is another matter!

 

[solange]

My 3 carat pear shape engagement ring has a small, visible white line on the pavillion of the stone. I knew it was there when we bought it but I do not thnk anyone ever noticed it except me and the apprasier. Not even my husband could find it. The price was great because of the visible inclusion. I am sure that over the many years that I wore it , no one who saw my ring ever saw the inclusion. You have to know where it is to find it.

Truthfully, I was very comfortable with that small tiny white line. It in no way detracted from the stone and if I ever left it with a jeweler for any reason I always knew I was getting the same stone back.

I wore the ring for many years and recently got a larger completely eye clean SI2. On this one, I cannot find the inclusions without a loupe. I know some people are bothered with inclusions even though they are not noticeable but I do not like to pay forsomething I cannot see.

SI stones are not for everyone and people should just buy what they feel comfortable with.

 

[Kamuelamom]

As our friend Dancing Fire has so eloquently coined, the phrase "mind clean" is so profound when looking for that perfect stone. Bottom line is that no one (ok, like Jflo has said, maybe an appraiser) will know or see it except you. White inclusions are a good thing. I''lll testify as I have before, I swear my G/SI1 is more like a VS or a VVS (maybe misgraded????) stone. Till this day I have never been able to spot any inclusions, with or without my loupe. And Lord knows I''ve tried.

You will get the best bang for your buck with the SI, then you can put some money into the setting. Unless you are lucky like Patty who got ultra lucky with her I/I1.

I want one too!!

Good luck TLS. I know how grueling this process has been for you. Remember it''s supposed to be an enjoyable and memorable time. Relax. Send for the stone, especially if Jon will pay for the shipping. You really have nothing to lose and you could end up loving it, despite the inclusion. Sometimes you just gotta see it to believe it.

 

[TLS]

Hi,

Just wanted to thank everyone for their help! Got the diamond from GOG - it looks fantastic! I have not been able to find the inclusion, even with a 10x loupe it takes a couple seconds because of all the sparkles! I can''t find it at all without magnification at this point (but I am still trying!).

Jonathan has been very helpful with this purchase.

I had them send it to me with a temporary setting, since I wanted to review the stone before committing to a setting. Should I be getting an appraisal on the stone prior to getting it set? Also, should I be insuring prior to any of this? I don''t really want to do an appraisal until it''s set, but I am not sure how this should normally be handled.

I would like to work with Jonathan on the setting but I am having a hard time figuring out what I want based on online pictures, so if it doesn''t end up making sense to have them set it what would be the best way to handle the appraisal/insurance part.

I am concerned about bringing it to an unknown jeweler to have them set it without it being insured yet, but I have heard that it is harder to insure a stone not in a setting. What would happen if something happened to the diamond during the setting process?

My preference would be to work with GOG on the setting completely, but I need to weigh whether this makes sense based on what it would cost to ship it back to me as well as the time factor involved.

Thanks for your help!

 

[TLS]

bump

 

[Daniela]

TLS,

Glad it worked out for you. You should definitely have it insured right away. The write up that GOG provides is more than enough for you to do so (that what I used for insurance purposes). And for the setting, it''s really up to you. If it''s insured before setting, I wouldn''t be so concerned about sending back to GOG to have it done. I am sure that you can find someone competent in your area if you do some digging. Also, you have to consider if they carry the brand of setting you want as well. Since it sounds like you are unsure, I think that you should decide on a setting first and then go from there.