Scott Peterson convicted

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

I feel that the ''other side'' implies that, since I have these ''liberal'' beliefs, I am running around having sex with everyone and getting abortions every other weekend.

psu - I never meant to imply that you did those things. but those are things that you are implicitly condoning

Exactly my feelings as well. I also find it strange that many of the ''other side,'' as you say, say they follow Christian teachings, but they seem to neglect the parts that say do not judge others for you will be judged harshly for your judgement, love your neighbor as yourself, give away all that you have and follow me, humans have God-given free-will, and God is omniscient, meaning He is All-Knowing and can and will use all possible human events and actions to His greater good. My faith is between me and God, not between me and you, and that faith cannot give me the power to dictate your life for you. Period.

JCJD - not judging others, and loving your neighbour as yourself does not mean that you should not admonish somebody for doing something that is wrong. The law exists because certain things are deemed by society to be wrong. does it matter from where someones opinion is derived? when you imply (if you are not, I apologise) that faith has no place in politics, you are saying that the opinions of religious people are illegitimate, which I find to be undemocratic. democracy does not imply secularism. you can have your say, express and vote your views no matter whether then come from Marx or the Bible. your faith cannot give you the power to dictate my life, well isn''t that a recipe for anarchism? who am I, who believe in my right to my own property, to dictate that you cannot take it from me?

but you are correct to say that many Christians focus too narrowly on social issues to the exclusion of all others

 

[JCJD]

I am not suggesting anarchy. I am trying to say this: If President Bush were Jewish and was attempting to legislate Jewish laws into the Constitution (Kosher laws, for example), there would be American uprising against him because of the Constitutional right to freedom of religion. The fact that he and a large percentage of Americans are Christian does not give him the Constitutional freedom to legislate Christianity because that restricts the religious freedoms of American citizens who are not Christian. Likewise, a Catholic Christian president who outlaws birth control because of his/her religious views would be restricting the religious freedoms of Protestant Christians who do not believe that birth control is morally bad, while a Protestant president that required either barrier or hormonal birth control methods would be restricting the religious freedoms of Catholic Christians whose religious views prohibit the use of these types of contraceptives.

 

[JCJD]

Date: 11/18/2004 11:42:43 AM
Author: JCJD
I am sorry diamondgeezer, but your post offended me. I was raised by parents who were very open concerning human sexuality, not as something dirty and sinful, but as a basic human act that comes with adult responsibility and raw emotions. I was also raised in a school system in which sex education was based on scientific facts - birth control is available, this is its effectiveness/failure rate, these are STD''s, you can prevent them by being abstinent or by using barrier contraceptives... - not in pseudo-morality or fear-based ''information''. And despite what you may think, I am still a virgin, and so is my boyfriend, and we will remain virgins until our wedding night. So don''t tell me that kids who aren''t preached to about abstinence-only cannot become responsible abstinent adults.


I resent your suggestion that I resist sex until my boyfriend gets me a rock. Is that what your relationship is based on? I hope not, but if it is, that''s your prerogative. But stay out of my bedroom. I can take care of myself.


Women''s liberation means women can choose their own destinies rather than have them dictated to them by societal roles. I have chosen to remain abstinent because it is the right choice for me, and I have also chosen to have a career because that is where my gifts and talents lead me. How can you tell me that women''s liberation is a bad thing? Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. If that offends you, then so be it.

Wanted to make sure you saw this diamondgeezer.

 

[psuheather]

Date: 11/17/2004 8:12:34 PM
Author: diamondgeezer
JCJD, education simply does not work, period. kids are simply not responsible, mature or rational enough. they are no confident, self-assured or self-aware enough at that age. the only way to avoid situations like this is to preach (yes, preach) abstinence at least until there is an e-ring.

teen pregnancies in the US are at historic lows due to the abstinence message. teen pregnancies here in the UK keep rising steadily, despite millions upon millions of taxpayers money spent on education. They have a program, Kondoms for Kids, well that is not its real name... but it might as well be. they are giving condoms and the pill no questions asked, without parental consent, to 11year olds (sadly that is not an exaggeration) and they can''t fathom why the rate keeps climbing.

Again...herein lies the difference between us. I do not believe that teenagers are simply sub-standard forms of adults that have no sense of responsibility or self-worth. On the contrary, I find teenagers to be very capable individuals when we treat them as such.
No one is suggesting that abstinence be banned as an option presented within the confines of sex education. Abstinence is, of course, a wonderful option and one that we all hope teenagers choose. But I live in the real world...while some will embrace the concept of abstinence, others will not. That is just fact. You can''t reach them all. And I would MUCH rather that the students who do not choose abstinence be armed with educational knowledge and resources to protect themselves when (not if) they engage in sexual activity. People are so scared that if you mention the word "sex", then all teenagers will immediately tear off their clothes and engage in an orgy. It''s the same as the thought that if you mention the word "homosexuality", they will all immediately become attracted to members of the same sex. This is giving them way too little credit. It is amazing how teenagers rise to the occasion when they are treated with respect and maturity.
I believe that good parents and teachers are not dictators, but rather guides. You present your children or students with a great deal of information, expose them to various options and points of view, and try to instill a sense of moral values and ethics. Then, with a great deal of faith and trust, you step back a little, and hope that they choose the right paths. Trying to control them, or force them down certain paths, will only cause resentment and, all too often, rebellion. LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR LIVES! You can not control what they choose to do or how they choose to live their lives.

And I have to say...if you really do believe that teenagers are "not responsible, mature or rational, as well as not confident, self-assured or self aware"...aren''t you terrified that these individuals are exisiting in this world without proper sex education???!!! If they are lacking so many emotional and developmental constucts, just imagine the damage they could do when you throw in ignorance! What makes you think that they are going to embrace abstinence when it seems you don''t even feel they have the capacity to make their own decisions.

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

not as something dirty and sinful, but as a basic human act that comes with adult responsibility and raw emotions.

you said the R word!

I thought that was banned these days? [j/k]

I resent your suggestion that I resist sex until my boyfriend gets me a rock. Is that what your relationship is based on? I hope not, but if it is, that''s your prerogative

I am defintely going to start putting little notices next to my jokes

that was not a suggestion, it was a joke.

And despite what you may think, I am still a virgin, and so is my boyfriend, and we will remain virgins until our wedding night. So don''t tell me that kids who aren''t preached to about abstinence-only cannot become responsible abstinent adults.

I don''t believe I said they cannot become responsible adults, but that as a general rule, giving kids ''information'' at such a young age, leads them to ''experiment.'' I am not saying there are not responsible mature intelligent kids out there, but we are few and far between,

"despite what you may think..." true, I did jump to certain conclusions. that was wrong of me. I think it mostly because abstinence is so rare in this country, I never bring it up for fear of ridicule, I generally just nod, smile politely then sit there awkwardly until they start talking about something else. how other people choose to live their lives is their business, but I think treating women without the slightest bit of respect, as nothing but sex objects, as most guys seem to do is utterly disgusting. I will never apologise for that.

I am sorry diamondgeezer, but your post offended me. I was raised by parents who were very open concerning human sexuality, not as something dirty and sinful, but as a basic human act that comes with adult responsibility and raw emotions.

firstly, I do apologise unreservedly for any offence caused
secondly, when did I say sex was either dirty or sinful? I believe it is a beautiful thing, in its rightful place - within the bonds of matrimony. btw, I will just point out that I don''t think that it should be illegal to have sex outside of marriage, what consenting adults do in their own bedrooms is their own business. I think this is like psu was saying, if you take a side on any of these issue you are either some kind of fire and brimstone women repressing puritan, or a hedonistic anti-religious baby-killer...

you are right, human sexuality comes with "adult responsiblity" , so we should not be forcing it onto children who are not mature enough to accept that responsiblity or the raw emotions involved.

Women''s liberation means women can choose their own destinies rather than have them dictated to them by societal roles. I have chosen to remain abstinent because it is the right choice for me, and I have also chosen to have a career because that is where my gifts and talents lead me. How can you tell me that women''s liberation is a bad thing? Feminism is the radical notion that women are people. If that offends you, then so be it.

I am not easily offended, however I am genuinely offended by the implication that I am some kind of mysogynist, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[JCJD]

Apology accepted, please accept mine. You''re right - I lashed out. It is very difficult to distinguish tongue-in-cheek statements on paper (screen???) and I assumed the worst. That was unfair of me, and I''m sorry.

I still stand by my assertion that education is power. How can children grow up to be comfortable enough with their own sexuality and their own bodies to respect themselves enough to make good decisions (whatever those may be) if we do not address these issues from a young age? I doubt that you would argue that the best way to stop the sexual abuse of children is NOT to teach children from a young age that their bodies are their own and they should tell an adult about all unwanted touching. In the same way, I would argue that the best way to stop the spread of STD''s and teen pregnancy rates is to teach children the many ways to protect themselves at an age appropriate level. Information throughout their young educations is key to stopping 11-year old kids from unknowingly experimenting before they are ready, IMO.

One of my fellow grad students taught 7th grade for 2 years, and had to host her school district''s sex ed program in her class - abstinence-only education introduced in the 7th grade (~12 years old), no information prior to this. This woman was finding used condoms in her classroom the entire year, and the kids would talk frankly (albeit ignorantly) about their sexual activities. Almost 8 months after this guest "educator" came to her class, one of her 7th grade girls gave birth! That means she was already pregnant by the time the school district decided she needed to know that abstinence is the only way! Is this the way to go about reducing teen pregnancy rates? Sure doesn''t seem like it...

 

[jenwill]

Date: 11/18/2004 5:24:17 PM
Author: diamondgeezer



I think it mostly because abstinence is so rare in this country, I never bring it up for fear of ridicule, I generally just nod, smile politely then sit there awkwardly until they start talking about something else. how other people choose to live their lives is their business, but I think treating women without the slightest bit of respect, as nothing but sex objects, as most guys seem to do is utterly disgusting. I will never apologise for that.

Hey DG! While I must say we differ on some things.....

Do not stay quiet for fear of being ridiculed! Every voice should be heard- and differing opinions only help to make people think about why they have chosen the path they have. While I am not saying to get preachy about abstinence, if the subject of sex comes up and people look to you, I think a calm ''I personally have chosen to refrain from having sex until I am married'' is a wonderful thing to say. Be open about it- there may be others around you that agree- and you can draw strength of conviction from one another. Even if you get odd looks- or ''no way!''s, lead by example. I have friends from school who were quietly open about their abstinence, and it only drew admiration. Nobody wants to be preached to, but many are encouraged simply by recognizing that if one can do it, others can as well.

I am not abstinent, but have been lucky that the men I have been with have only treated me with respect. There are those out there for the ''easy sex'' but many who do engage are just as demanding as you that it be treated with the respect that it deserves. I do not have religious or moral objections to premarital sex, but I do stand with you on treating it as something that is important and beautiful in the context of life.

 

[psuheather]

style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 159px">Date: 11/18/2004 5:24:17 PM
Author: diamondgeezer

''despite what you may think...'' true, I did jump to certain conclusions. that was wrong of me. I think it mostly because abstinence is so rare in this country, I never bring it up for fear of ridicule, I generally just nod, smile politely then sit there awkwardly until they start talking about something else. how other people choose to live their lives is their business, but I think treating women without the slightest bit of respect, as nothing but sex objects, as most guys seem to do is utterly disgusting. I will never apologise for that.

That''s great diamondgeezer...I respect that about you. But just because a man has sex with a woman does not mean that she is only a sex object to him. I think you should understand more than anyone that a man has the capability of engaging in sex based on the deep connection and intamacy that he shares with the woman he loves. And, the woman is not merely a silent partner in all of this that spreads her legs when asked. She is just as much a willing party as the man...maybe she thinks of him as nothing more than a sex object ! (teehee)

Date: 11/18/2004 5:24:17 PM
Author: diamondgeezer


You are right, human sexuality comes with ''adult responsiblity'' , so we should not be forcing it onto children who are not mature enough to accept that responsiblity or the raw emotions involved.

Once you start to talk about abstinence...surprise!! You have already generated a discourse about sex! And believe it or not, those children are usually already thinking about, talking about, and all too often, engaging in sexual activity. You made a comment that discussing sex education with children encourages them to experiment. Surprise yet again...children experiment all on their own!!!! In fact, from a psychological perspective, experimentation is viewed as a perfectly naturally and normal aspect of development. No one is forcing this topic on children. Sex is not something that we can try to sweep under the carpet and talk about in whispers. It is a human drive that every person on this planet experiences. Children are going to experiment whether you talk about sex or not--ignoring it is not going to make it disappear. It will only cause uneducated children to make very bad decisions and feel that they have no one to talk to or ask questions because "you''re not supposed to talk about sex unless your talking about not having it"

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

But just because a man has sex with a woman does not mean that she is only a sex object to him.

have you heard how they talk when there are no ladies present? I say this only half in jest. today, a guy from my course told me he had got a female friend of his a present for her birthday, which I thought was sweet, til he told me that he was only doing it to get something back in return, I think his exact words were "that ought to get me a blowjob" and "you don''t really think I''d give a girl a present if there was no prospect of sexual reward did you?" which is simply vile.

I think you should understand more than anyone that a man has the capability of engaging in sex based on the deep connection and intamacy that he shares with the woman he loves.&nbsp

first and foremost, from what I gather, men treat women like crap (sorry for the language, but is there any better way to describe it?). therefore, I dislike being called a man or guy, it kind of lumps me in with the oafishness, the machismo (lol), the sleaze, the lying, the disrespect, everything.
I am a gentleman.

secondly, I should have been more explicit, but I was referring more to casual sex and one night stands, though abstinence is the goal

to use an analogy... in my opinion
abstinence is your D, IF, hearts and arrows,
pre-marital sex, permanent monogamy is like an F, VS1 ideal cut,
serial monogamy is H, SI2, good cut,
casual sex is a CZ, a poor imitation for the real thing, love

And, the woman is not merely a silent partner in all of this that spreads her legs when asked. She is just as much a willing party as the man...maybe she thinks of him as nothing more than a sex object ! (teehee)

that is a tad graphic for my taste... thankyou very much lol
but of course women can enjoy that just as much, however, I think it is generally accepted that women are more monogamous than men and are looking for love, intimacy, romance, closeness, security, companionship, trust etc whereas men just want sex. perhaps summed up in a quote I read today, "Love is the history of a woman''s life; it is an episode in man''s."

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

JCJD - "I still stand by my assertion that education is power."

even with Bush back in the White House?















note: that was a joke

I am happy to say I was rooting for Dubya on November 2nd

 

[Matata]

I''d like to gain a more informed perspective about why it and sensuality are so problematic. Sex is a biological imperative. The purpose is to reproduce. Reproduction is necessary for the perpetuation of a species. Homo sapien hunter gatherer societies were matriarchal and the females controlled reproduction and chose the sturdiest males to donate sperm. The males were marginalized -- provided meat for the group and served as sperm donors. Females held the knowledge about medicinal and edible plants -- what they were and where to find them and passed that knowledge to their daughers. When that lifestyle evolved into agrarian living, women became marginalized as men took on a larger role of protecting the home turf, the importance of the oral tradition about medicinal plants faded because they could be farmed, males controlled reproduction. Fast forward to the middle ages. The virgin-whore complex is born. Women who are pure are put on pedestals and adored by sexually frustrated men on a quest to marry the virgin for the purpose of siring heirs (if they were wealthy) or siring additional help if they were poor. Men bedded whores when they wanted to have fun in bed. Married women who derived pleasure from sex were considered whores. Fast forward again and here comes women''s lib trying to get women permission to be sexual and sensual and trying very hard to deal a fatal blow to the virgin-whore complex and failing.

That very tortured version of history is an attempt to encourage discussion about how attitudes toward sex and the underlying power struggle associated with it colors our "modern" thinking. Fast forward to today. Sex is no longer necessary for reproduction to occur. The virgin-whore complex still permeates our thinking. Sex makes us feel good whether or not it occurs within the confines of marriage. The potential negative consequences of sex are the same whether it is premarital or marital as are the more positive aspects. This notion of sex being a sacred act within the confines of marriage or a committed relationship or only with someone you will love forever is difficult for me to understand. I also don''t understand why some find the idea of sex between the young is so appalling. Someone here mentioned that youngsters are not emotionally prepared for sex, maybe so, but their bodies are. I would rather concentrate on teaching them to avoid the negative consequences of sex than trying to talk them into waiting for the right time and person let alone trying teach how one figures out the right time and person.

 

[fire&ice]

; I do not believe that teenagers are simply sub-standard forms of adults that have no sense of responsibility or self-worth. On the contrary, I find teenagers to be very capable individuals when we treat them as such.
;

Clearly, you have not raised a teenager. Quite often, their brains are mush and are quite unrational.

The best thing to do is arm them with information, put the fear of God in them & try to avoid any situation where they could make bad choices.

Half in jest. Half in truth.

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

Women who are pure are put on pedestals

what is wrong with putting women on pedestals?

Men bedded whores when they wanted to have fun in bed.

who is saying that men shouldn''t have fun in bed with their wives?

Married women who derived pleasure from sex were considered whores.

has anyone said there is something wrong, dirty or sinful about married women derivng pleasure from sex?

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

can I add to the controversial nature of this thread and just ask one simple question:

does a woman have the right to use lethal force to prevent a sexual attack?

for me, this is a no brainer: of course, she has the moral right to shoot the attacker right between the eyes.

 

[moremoremore]

My gutt tells me he''s TOTALLY guilty. But I always hate to comment on trial verdicts b/c we only hear what the media wants us to hear. There were SO many witnesses. I would LOVE to know what they all said. Until then, I can''t give an educated opinion. BUT, from what I''ve heard, the b*stard''s totally guilty.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 11/19/2004 1:26:31 PM
Author: diamondgeezer
can I add to the controversial nature of this thread and just ask one simple question:


does a woman have the right to use lethal force to prevent a sexual attack?


for me, this is a no brainer: of course, she has the moral right to shoot the attacker right between the eyes.

How would you feel about a new thread for this topic? In this thread we have already wandered from Scott Peterson to abortion to the death penalty and into the world of contemporary morals with a foray or two into religion along the way. If we want to discuss this (or fight), maybe we should have a thread for each topic!!!

 

[ClownFishFunk]

Date: 11/15/2004 4:49:49 PM
Author: diamondgeezer

very good point, however, in order to ensure that women who want an abortion don''t falsely claim to be raped, any woman who had been raped wanting an abortion would have to have to report the rape to the police, and undergo a rape exam (this would not add any stress to the situation, as it is standard procedure in cases of rape anyway). if evidence suggests rape, then there are abortion pills, or pills that prevent conception (I am not entirely sure what they do I must confess) like RU... something 6? you know what I am talking about anyway. and if in the unlikely event that these did fail, then as she had reported the rape to the police, it would be on file and she would not be forced to carry her rapists baby to term. there are those who would argue, why punish the child? but as the woman did not consent to the rape, in a free society it has to be her choice. - key words being ''did not consent.'' in alleged cases of incest, I believe they can do a genetic screening of the baby in utero to establish whether it was or was not incest, as this is not consensual, abortion would be down to the choice of the woman/girl concerned.

the only problem arises when a woman reports a rape perhaps weeks after the attack, and hadn''t come forward earlier due to trauma, shame, whatever. I am not sure how this situation could be resolved. you don''t want to say yes to anyone who alleges rape weeks later, that would open the floodgates to false claims in order to get an abortion. perhaps so sort of psychological screening... this seems a little extreme, but a rape victim needs counselling, so it would not add any stress to the situation to ask the shrink whether he/she thinks they are telling the truth... but this is a very difficult grey area, to say ban all abortion or let anyone have an abortion does not tackle the issue it just makes it a moot point, imho.

I just wanted to comment on the idea of using psychological screening, as I find this quite interesting since I am currently studying psychology. I don’t really think that this is a plausible idea because different psychologists could come to different conclusions on whether or not they THINK the person was truly raped or not. Also, in order for a psychologist to really know the ins and outs of their patients, they usually have to be a client for a long period of time and if you only begin seeing the client AFTER they are raped and become pregnant, they may not be able to determine an answer until after the legal time limit when allowing an abortion. There are also laws of confidentiality protecting what a client and therapist discuss. The only possible way around this that I could think of would be similar to when someone pleads insanity, and they assign a therapist for the sole purpose to decide if the person was legally insane while committing whatever crime it may be. I think this would be a terrible idea though because then its making someone who reports a rape go through somewhat of an interrogation process in order to prove she isn’t lying, and I think even less rapes would go reported if you knew you had to go through that process. It just seems that it would be making a horribly stressful time in your life even moreso. Though I would highly recommend any one who got raped to see a psychologist, I really think the helpfulness of going to one would be decreased if you knew that what you said to your psychologist was going to be reported back to someone as they decided whether or not you can have an abortion.

 

[yellowfan]

glad Scott is convicted and he should get what he deserves.


Secondly, if things were different, how many guys would have abortions themselves....... Some men dump all the responsibility on the woman, and I've seen it over and over, because I'm a nurse. I have worked downtown in a busy city, where I have witnessed little 13,14,15 yr. old scared girls having babies, and you know what the "father/sperm donor" is no where around. I suggest men not be too critical unless they try to raise children by themselves, with no help from the Mom or Grandmother. I know there are some dedicated fathers but there is also a lot of casual sex guys that leave the lady holding the bag. It should always be a womans right to decide herself if abortion is right for her or not. Guys should wear a condom or get a vasectomy if they do not want to father children. I think they should really bring back sex education in schools, teenagers are afraid to talk to there parents, and I see those kids going thru the same things.


Also, for diamondgeezer: A rape kit, is a very stressful traumatic ordeal to go thru. You obviously do not have a clue to how procedures are surrounding a woman who has came in raped. Its beyond stressful. Do you realize some ppl commit suicide after there rape. They never get over it. How old are you Diamondgeezer? what is your profession?



On a happy note, every time I witness a delivery and give the baby its first injections, first bath, footprints, it makes me want to have more children....