Having someone else set the stone

[mdancel]

I''m thinking of buying a stone off the internet. I want to pick out a setting at an AGS reputable local jeweler.

I have some reservations, in general, of not having the same place I bought the stone set the stone. I''ve read some stuff on prong tightening, or stone switching.

Are these valid concerns?

 

[pearcrazy]

I purchased my diamond online and had a local jeweler set the stone. As long as you choose a reputable company I think you will be alright. My aunt claims that she had her diamond switched at a Service Merchandise when she had it re-set. My suggestion would be to use an independent jeweler (not a chain). One that''s been in business for a while doesn''t want to risk his good name and reputation by trying to switch a diamond. The problem I encountered was finding a jeweler to strictly perform the mounting of the diamond. I already had a setting and had purchased a new larger stone. I needed the smaller head removed and a new larger head placed on the semi-mount and diamond mounted. I called 3 jewelers before I found someone willing to do the work for me. The other 2 got their noses bent out of joint when I told them I''d purchased a diamond online. I told the third jeweler that I''d purchased the diamond from a relative with a failed engagement and he was happy to sell me the head and do the work to place it on my ring and mount the diamond. About $65 total. Something to keep in mind-- you may want to leave out the part about buying the diamond online. As long as he sells you the setting and performs the mounting he may not even ask about the diamond.

As a safeguard, have him look at the diamond though a loupe and point out the inclusions or characteristics of your diamond matched to the certificate. As long as he knows that YOU know where they are, KWIM?

 

[oldminer]

It is a very good suggestion not to brag about buying the diamond from an on-line source or from a competing retail B&M store. It is almost certain to make the jeweler get his "nose bent out of shape" and what you want is polite and fair servce, not an arguement over your right to save money, or to buy anywhere you please.

Some retail stores do have an attitude about on-line purchasing. It is costing them money when you choose to shop elsewhere. It is very understandable if you take the time to put yourself in their position.

Handled properly, you can get great service on the mounting from some local merchants who really do want to make you their customer. Although I certainly cooperate with on-line sellers, I still support a vast local network of my region''s B&M retail stores. There is room for all, but we will loose a few who feel that the new business model just does not work well for them. It is hard to accept change, but even harder to resist it when the entire business climate has shifted so much.

 

[denverappraiser]

It''s a very common request at a jewelry store to have a customer want to buy a mounting at the store and have them set a stone that the customer already owns. Examples of this come from when a customer wants to have a mounting ''updated'' to suit their new tastes, when a stone is passed down through a family and a substantial list of other reasons. New internet purchases is just a relatively new wrinkle in this. There are very few stores that will decline this sort of business. It isn''t necessary to tell the store where you got your stone if you feel that they will treat you badly based on this information. Like Dave, I support a substantial network of local jewelers and I can''t think of a single one that would refuse your business.

I usually recommend that customers find an independent appraiser to examine the stone unmounted in order to make the decision about whether to keep or return the stone and then have the appraisal completed after the jeweler has set it in the new mounting. This gives you a full appraisal on your final product and it gives you a professional examination both before and after the jeweler works on the piece.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[rosy]

Hi,
Is it necessary to buy the setting from the appraiser or can I bring in a loose diamond & my own setting?

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/31/2004 4:12:12 PM
Author: rosy
Hi,
Is it necessary to buy the setting from the appraiser or can I bring in a loose diamond & my own setting?

Rosy,


Surely you mean to be asking about the jeweler setting the stone, not the appraiser. Different stores have differing policies on this. Some will not work on merchandise that they didn't sell. Most will. I agree with Fey, if they don't want your business there are plenty of others that do.


Feydakin,

The required independence of the appraiser is that they are not a party to the transaction. It is a clear conflict of interest to appraise something when you have a vested interest in the results.This means that if the appraiser is involved in the sale, manufacture or purchase of the property, they are automatically ineligible for that particular assignment regardless of their qualifications. This in no way means that they are not qualified for other assignments that are superficially similar in nature but in which they aren’t involved.

I’m fairly confident that your appraiser would agree with this.

The difficulty with new-purchase appraisals is the inherent conflict caused by offering a client advice relevant to their purchase/return decision when the appraiser is also a competitive seller (or buyer).Advising a client that they should return the item within the proscribed time and to make an alternative purchase from the appraiser’s store is clearly unethical, even when it’s good advice.In order for the appraiser to remain credible, it is necessary for them to decline either the appraisal assignment or the potential sale and this determination must be made before the assignment is even accepted.Since most stores are primarily designed to sell merchandise, not appraisal services, this decision is fairly easy for them to make.

This is exactly the type of appraisals that are normally discussed on this forum and for which the advise customarily is to seek out an ‘independent appraiser’. An appraiser who is working on behalf of a store, should not accept this type of assignment. This in no way precludes them from other types of assignments and in no way suggests that they are somehow inferior to those who don't buy or sell.


Neil Betay, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[perry]

It is not that they can''t be honest. Some are and will never change that due to their own personal integrity.

however, there is the tempation not to be honest- especially if the store is having a minor finalcial moment.

The fact is that some people are weak. Tempt them to many times and they start to fall.

By using a totally independent appraiser, you remove the temtation, thus greatly lesson the chance of a problem developing over the years.

While there are outright dishonest people out there in any business, most are in fact fairly honest, and some people have the highest personal integrity.

Perry

 

[Brian Knox]

Date: 10/31/2004 11:15:51 AM
Author:mdancel

...
I have some reservations, in general, of not having the same place I bought the stone set the stone. I''ve read some stuff on prong tightening, or stone switching.

Are these valid concerns?

Hi mdancel,



Is it a round diamond ?

Most jewelers have no problem assuming the risk for setting a round diamond purchased elsewhere.

However, because of the problematic nature of fancy cut diamonds , most jewelers will not assume liability for setting ''others'' diamonds if the diamond is a fancy with a point(s) or corner(s) because they break easily compared to rounds.

My advice, if it is a fancy shape have the diamond seller set it.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 10/31/2004 9:54:36 PM
Author: Feydakin

Date: 10/31/2004 6:56:11 PM
Author: denverappraiser


Feydakin,

The required independence of the appraiser is that they are not a party to the transaction.  It is a clear conflict of interest to appraise something when you have a vested interest in the results.  This means that if the appraiser is involved in the sale, manufacture or purchase of the property, they are automatically ineligible for that particular assignment regardless of their qualifications. This in no way means that they are not qualified for other assignments that are superficially similar in nature but in which they aren’t involved.

So, you are basically saying that they can''t be honest.. The supposed conflict of interest precludes an otherwise honest and accurate appraiser from being just that in those cases is what you are saying..

Perhaps this dicusson belongs in it''s own thread..

Steve

Steve,

No, that’s not basically what I’m saying, It’s not even approximately what I’m saying.

In new-purchase appraisals, a client is hiring a professional to assist them in making a difficult purchase decision.Presumably they have already received information from the seller as part of the sales presentation and they are seeking independent corroboration that what they’ve been told is correct and that no critical information has been omitted. By definition, the seller is unable to provide this service.The opinions of an alternative seller may be both useful and correct but it’s simply not the same service as what is supplied by an independent.

Are you disagreeing with my statement that appraisers should avoid assignments where they are one of the parties in the transaction?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

Quoting Feydakin:

"I keep seeing this said.. But, in my experience, this isn''t the case in any store in our area.. Perhaps we are in a different market.. Perhaps the stores in our area are simply more progressive.. But I see this said over and over and it baffles me each and every time I see it.. We treat everyone with respect and are thrilled to have them in our store, even when they run in at 1 minute to close just to look around

I also see lots of comments about ''independant'' appraisers.. Does this mean that our Charter, Senior NAJA member (owner of the store) is not capable of being honest with everyone??

Like I said, perhaps we are simply a unique store and I should try not to let these comments get to me..

Steve - sorry for hijacking the thread"

REPLY:

I suppose you keep seeing this being said because it is such a comonplace occurence although you don''t feel that you are guilty of being resentful. That''s positive and good news, but I was trying to convince a consumer not to brag about how they beat the system, but rather how to approach getting good service. You may be a great guy, but there are many angry retailers out there who do not offer a friendly smile when confronted with the new reality. You are an exception to the norm and that''s just fine. Please don''t let it get to you as it shouldn''t, if you are not a guilty party.

I am the Ethics Chairman of NAJA and if you were in my position you would understand that some Senior Charter Members of NAJA were not exactly all princes to begin with. Every organization takes those who are willing to join in the beginning. We have a small legacy of great Charter Members and also a small legacy of not so hot Charter members. I make no assumptions either way. Time does not always improve an appraiser.

Giving adviced to a consumer on how to make a request for service benefits both the consumer and the retail store. It does no harm to anyone. If all retailers welcomed business as you do, this advice would be less meaningful. I want consumers to allow a pleasant relationship to develop...That''s all.

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 10/31/2004 11:15:51 AM
Author:mdancel
I''m thinking of buying a stone off the internet. I want to pick out a setting at an AGS reputable local jeweler.

I have some reservations, in general, of not having the same place I bought the stone set the stone. I''ve read some stuff on prong tightening, or stone switching.

Are these valid concerns?

I feel for you, mdancel. Although I think buying diamond "globally," and having it set locally is a good approach, I had difficulty trying to make it happen, personally. Although oldminder''s approach is probably the way to get it done, what I wanted to do was reasonable, I thought...first go to the place who you would have set the diamond, review the options, get the job set up before you start...it got kind of queer quickly, with them suggesting they could also provide the side stones, and beginning a new shopping process around that...which I didn''t want to do. So, either you''re at least something of an operator, getting this set up...or...you trust in the process going forward, getting the diamond first, walking in with it, and going from there. Of course, under most circumstances, once you''re in posession of the diamond, you''re not insured until it''s set, so there''s that lag time.

In the alternative, I took the more conservative approach, and did have it set with the vendor who sold me the diamond. If you''d prefer to have it set locally, I hope you''ll have better success than I.

Thinking about the problem with buying over the internet, the sorts of solutions I came up with are geared to simplifying the process. In one solution, the whole selection, setting, and appraising process is done at a distance. In this case, I''m suggesting an additional help not routinely requested from the appraiser be sought, and I''m making a separate post about that. Actually, I think Richard Sherwood, in a sample of his appraisals, does currently discuss some of the rationales for positives and negatives about the diamond that I think could make this solution work.

Anyway, better solutions like the one suggested by Leonid with the Jewler of Choice program are the sorts that are most promising. Meanwhile, it will be interesting to hear how we all navigate the available processes.

with best wishes on Election Day.

 

[denverappraiser]

Steve,

At least in Denver, there are several shops that specialize in independent inspections and telling clients what’s right and what’s wrong with their car without offering repair services..They have employees who are qualified mechanics who, in some cases, may actually be currently employed elsewhere doing repair work but the client is not told where the mechanics work and there is a clear separation between the services being offered. It’s a valuable service and is a growing segment of the auto industry. It is especially useful to clients who are buying or selling used cars where there may be issues that are less than obvious.

“ It should not be a requirement to avoid assignments”

Any professional, in any field, must first decide if they are able to offer the requested service and decline the assignment if they are not an appropriate provider.This requirement goes above and beyond the fact the customer will make this sort of decision prior to offering the assignment in the first place. This decision is the very first thing a professional appraiser needs to do in an assignment.I think we clearly disagree on where this line belongs but do you at least agree that there is a line and that there are assignments that an appraiser should decline?

For example: If the client is seeking confirmation that what a seller has told them is both accurate and complete how is it helpful to have the seller repeat their statements on a document and call it an ‘appraisal’, even if the information is fundamentally correct?

I’m not a NAJA member and am unfamiliar with their rules but I’m sure Dave can speak eloquently about them. Both ASA and ISA require that a statement be included in every appraisal addressing this very topic. Mine will normally say:

“ I have no undisclosed past, present, or contemplated future personal interest with respect to the property that is the subject of this report, and no personal interest with respect to the parties involved.”

I believe that my clients find the substance of this statement reassuring and the fact that I can honestly make it is one of the reasons that they choose to use my services. It increases my credibility in the eyes of current and potential clients.

I’m happy to concede the point that ‘independence’ is a moving target that boils down to the integrity of the individual advisor. The claim of independence is exactly the reason that you point out your choice not to promote your employer with your signature.You clearly feel that it gives you added credibility as an adviser on the forum to not be selling here.I agree, it does, even though this independence in no way contributes to the accuracy or usefulness of your opinions.It sounds to me like you’re suggesting that independence is valuable when it applies to your advise but not to mine.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Steve,

The situation I mentioned above is the case with most appraisals I see that originate from Pricescope. It goes something like this:
A client has spent some time shopping, they''ve been told a variety of different things from a variety of different vendors that are not necessarily compatible with one another. They finally chose a stone and the seller gave them a whole stack of information about it. Now they start to wonder. Is the seller telling the truth? Did they omit anything important? Did they give half-truths, like using inaccurate lab reports or include outright fabrications? As you know, these things happen regularly and it’s an area of tremendous concern to both consumers and reputable dealers. Consumers want to avoid being cheated and dealers want their customers to feel confident in their purchases. Both sides want an expert opinion before the customer makes their final commitment on a decidedly expensive and otherwise blind item in order to eliminate the lingering doubt from any such transaction. They hire an appraiser to give them an educated, informed and unbiased opinion. If they’re willing to take the sellers word for it, they can usually have this for free and need neither a lab report nor an appraisal. This is not an entirely unreasonable position and many, if not most customers go this route. Similarly, the opinions of competitive sellers about why you should buy their products instead of the one chosen are readily available and usually free. This is simply not the same service. It’s an advertisement, not an appraisal. Most insurance companies will accept almost anything as an appraisal before binding a policy (which is a dumb procedure but this is another subject entirely) so this is a chimera of an excuse. Customers are generally very clear on why they want an appraisal. They are worried about being treated badly and they want someone on THEIR side to tell them the unvarnished truth. For this purpose, an appraiser who doesn''t buy or sell the subject property is simply better suited to the task.


There are several situations when I would suggest a professional appraiser to decline an assignment. These includes but are not limited to:


When they are party to the transaction as either the buyer, seller, or manufacturer.
When they don’t understand the product, the market, or both.
When they intend to buy the item, either from the seller or from the client.
When they have a financial or other interest that is based on the value conclusion.
When the client adds unacceptable conditions (like requiring a predetermined outcome).

Neil Beaty, GG ISA

Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/2/2004 6:47:25 PM
Author: crankydave

I couldn't disagree more.

Many, many professionals, in many different fields, are able to offer (and do) unbiased and honest opinions...for free. Are you suggesting that it is preferrable to pay a professional for their opinion, than to get the same opinion for free from someone who provides the service? If I'm following your logic, I, as a professional should not be offering my expert opinion to my clients because I provide the remedy?

Dave

Dave,

I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. I'm suggesting that for anyone selling services ranging from medical treatment to auto mechanics, it is important to decide first if you are an appropriate provider of the service required and if you aren't, you should not accept the assignment.

Presenting yourself as an unbiased advisor when, in fact you are an interested party is misleading and, in my opinion, unethical. You, as a professional who is offering to sell a remedy are welcome to give whatever advice you wish but you should not present yourself as independent when this is not the case. Giving a free estimate is fine. Charging for an estimate is fine. Offering merchandise for sale is fine. Offering to buy an item is fine. These can all be useful services in the right circumstances but they are not independent appraisals in the since that we are discussing (pre-purchase evaluation). In no way am I suggesting that independent appraisers are the only source for accurate advise or even that they all offer a quality service. I'm not even suggesting that they are always the appropriate source for information. The subject here is the suggestion given to consumers in this forum that they should seek the advise of an independent appraiser when making a purchase decision if they are less than entirely secure with what they've been told by the vendor. I continue to maintain that this is good advice.

Frankly, I'm surprised at the line you chose to disagree with. Under what circumstances do you feel it's acceptable for a professional to sell a requested service when they feel that they are not an appropriate provider of that service?

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Steve & Dave,

I posted my last answer at about the same time Steve did his so I didn''t get the chance to answer. I think we''re talking about two entirely different things.

I''m addressing pre-purchase evaluations of new merchandise, the area where people suggest that independence is important. Let''s keep it on that. Other appraisal assignments, like post purchase insurance replacement appraisals or repair evaluations are not relevant to the subject at hand. There are plenty of other appraisal services that are compatable with buying and selling the items being discussed.

Neil

 

[denverappraiser]

Indeed, we have wandered. Especially since this entire discussion digressed from a question about who best to have set stones I'm actually hard pressed to find an area where we disagree. The comment where I used the word 'better' was:



---------------------------------------------------------------
Customers are generally very clear on why they want an appraisal. They are worried about being treated badly and they want someone on THEIR side to tell them the unvarnished truth. For this purpose, an appraiser who doesn't buy or sell the subject property is simply better suited to the task.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I still stand by that.
Note please that I said that independents are better suited to the task, not that they are better appraisers. The task in question is a rather narrow type of appraising that, as you pointed out in your reply, most appraisers rarely see but that garners a great deal of discussion on this forum.

By the way, NAJA, ISA, ASA, CGA etc. are not licenses. These are professional organizations that some appraisers choose to belong to. None are required as a prerequisite to promote yourself as an appraiser.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver