Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. South?

[Aoife]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Ah, well. Perhaps we should reintroduce wolves and natural predators into the places that suffer from deer overpopulation. Or, sterilize some deer so there are fewer of them to hunt.
http://www.humanesociety.org/news/press_releases/2011/02/maryland_humane_deer_management_sterilization_021510.html

Hmm, but wait. Maybe I don't have a problem with hunting so much as I think it's creepy that people would kill innocent animals (and enjoy it?) for sport. And then hang their heads on the wall. Yeah, that's more my issue.

I'm not touching the whole dogs in the South thing, since I have no particular insight on it, but the mental image of running around after herds of deer trying to introduce them to the wonders of contraception is disturbing to me.

On a serious note, we used to live in a state where deer/car collisions were a serious problem. We knew quite a few people who ended up hospitalized after Bambi joined them in the front seat of their cars via the windshield, and had more than a few close calls ourselves. This was not far out in the country, it was a fairly populated area where wolves (even if that were practical) would be an ongoing threat to livestock. It is also a part of the country where controlling the deer population by way of birth control would drain money from other, desperately underfunded areas (like schools), especially when controlled culls were cheaper, and the meat could be put to good use feeding people.

I'm not a hunter, but after living in several states in the upper Midwest, I understand the practical aspects of hunting in ways I never did when I lived in other parts of the U.S.

 

[Matata]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

And I promise to be nice to you iLander. I'LL even walk the sage widdershins to banish all negativity.

Hey, if you do it skyclad and widdershins and post pics here I'll treat you to dinner.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

And when you come to a metaphysical fair with sage burnings, aura cleansings and palm readings, you have to promise to be nice back.

Can I come too? I'm into some of that. Why sage? I've always wondered -- what if you only have basil or parsley? I'm not joking!

iLander, Interceptor or Frontline takes care of fleas great. Haven't had a problem in years, since starting to use that. It's an easy fix, not a reason to leave a dog to rot alone in the backyard.

While I'd never willingly kill an animal, I like the beauty of the guns you're talking about, Karen. They are art in their own way. DH is loaded (sorry! ) with guns. Coming from Holland, where they're not allowed, he went off the deep end the first 5 yrs or so. We did a lot of target practice, which I enjoyed a lot. I was really pleased the year my uncle gave me my very own pistol for Christmas. I wish DH would thin out the gun population around here now; he hasn't used them in years & the thought of a burglar getting hold of them gives me the creeps. Anyway, glad you enjoyed the gun show.

--- Laurie

 

[ksinger]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

And I promise to be nice to you iLander. I'LL even walk the sage widdershins to banish all negativity.

Hey, if you do it skyclad and widdershins and post pics here I'll treat you to dinner.

As tempting as the offer is, I "harm none". Believe me, those pics would be VERY harmful.

 

[packrat]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Just a note on introducing natural predators, wolves aren't natural predators in Iowa, and they have introduced mountain lions here. You can't keep them in one section-they'll go where they please. Joe Farmers cattle and sheep maybe don't so much want a bunch of mountain lions introduced to the area. You can't tell a mountain lion "Just only eat the deer, the big ones, not the little cute Bambi's..and don't go after cattle or sheep, and don't go after Rex out in the backyard and little Fluffy that Mrs. Smith let outside to go potty" b/c most people who live in the country don't have fenced in back yards. (besides that, cats can jump and climb eh? What's a 6ft fence to a 7ft long 300# cat? At some point if you introduce enough to make a difference in the deer population, (mountain lions have a home range of 100 miles so I'm betting it's pretty hard to track how many cats v deer there are in any given area) you're going to have livestock being taken and that's going to hurt the farmers. And you're going to have pets being taken and that's going to hurt Little Billy and Sally. And you know what happens if you introduce enough to make a dent in the deer population in a 100 mile radius? They're going to be hungry..mountain lions are predators and they do not care if little Billy is outside in his big ole backyard and there aren't deer in the immediate vicinity... Wolves are the same way. At some point they will lose their fear of humans and then what? Relocate it? Won't work. Doesn't work.

 

[HollyS]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

My question is why we can't have just have ourselves a nice little self-righteous PS rant about how awful other people are - and they really are, aren't they?? - without having to attribute that awfulness predominantly to a subset of people - which of course is always one that WE can distance ourselves from either by geography, culture, money, or hey, I lived there but I was just slumming.

Thank you. And Hudson Hawk. For putting all of this in its proper perspective.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Oh, gimme a break from the PC-ness! By the time you're my age (early boomer) if you haven't learned to draw conclusions from your experience, you've wasted your time on earth. Read the thousands of disclaimers in this thread, might make you feel better.

--- Laurie

 

[CNOS128]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Just a note on introducing natural predators, wolves aren't natural predators in Iowa, and they have introduced mountain lions here. You can't keep them in one section-they'll go where they please. Joe Farmers cattle and sheep maybe don't so much want a bunch of mountain lions introduced to the area. You can't tell a mountain lion "Just only eat the deer, the big ones, not the little cute Bambi's..and don't go after cattle or sheep, and don't go after Rex out in the backyard and little Fluffy that Mrs. Smith let outside to go potty" b/c most people who live in the country don't have fenced in back yards. (besides that, cats can jump and climb eh? What's a 6ft fence to a 7ft long 300# cat? At some point if you introduce enough to make a difference in the deer population, (mountain lions have a home range of 100 miles so I'm betting it's pretty hard to track how many cats v deer there are in any given area) you're going to have livestock being taken and that's going to hurt the farmers. And you're going to have pets being taken and that's going to hurt Little Billy and Sally. And you know what happens if you introduce enough to make a dent in the deer population in a 100 mile radius? They're going to be hungry..mountain lions are predators and they do not care if little Billy is outside in his big ole backyard and there aren't deer in the immediate vicinity... Wolves are the same way. At some point they will lose their fear of humans and then what? Relocate it? Won't work. Doesn't work.

Yeah, I was joking about the wolves. It's not that far a leap to realize that predators in the suburbs would eat people and pets, too.

But I still think it's creepy when people enjoy killing animals.

And KSinger -- I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of people with guns.

 

[bee*]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

.

But I still think it's creepy when people enjoy killing animals.

And KSinger -- I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of people with guns.

I'm with you on both of these points.

 

[ksinger]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Just a note on introducing natural predators, wolves aren't natural predators in Iowa, and they have introduced mountain lions here. You can't keep them in one section-they'll go where they please. Joe Farmers cattle and sheep maybe don't so much want a bunch of mountain lions introduced to the area. You can't tell a mountain lion "Just only eat the deer, the big ones, not the little cute Bambi's..and don't go after cattle or sheep, and don't go after Rex out in the backyard and little Fluffy that Mrs. Smith let outside to go potty" b/c most people who live in the country don't have fenced in back yards. (besides that, cats can jump and climb eh? What's a 6ft fence to a 7ft long 300# cat? At some point if you introduce enough to make a difference in the deer population, (mountain lions have a home range of 100 miles so I'm betting it's pretty hard to track how many cats v deer there are in any given area) you're going to have livestock being taken and that's going to hurt the farmers. And you're going to have pets being taken and that's going to hurt Little Billy and Sally. And you know what happens if you introduce enough to make a dent in the deer population in a 100 mile radius? They're going to be hungry..mountain lions are predators and they do not care if little Billy is outside in his big ole backyard and there aren't deer in the immediate vicinity... Wolves are the same way. At some point they will lose their fear of humans and then what? Relocate it? Won't work. Doesn't work.

Yeah, I was joking about the wolves. It's not that far a leap to realize that predators in the suburbs would eat people and pets, too.

But I still think it's creepy when people enjoy killing animals.

And KSinger -- I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of people with guns.

Why? I'm serious as I ask you...why? What makes a person simply owning a gun more dangerous or more likely to hurt you? The core assumptions about the nature of the people who own a gun just boggles my mind really. By saying you are afraid of people with guns, what you've really said is you're just afraid of other people, period. You and I both agree that it isn't the tool it's the person, where we diverge is on our view of other people. It's why I can easily walk through a gun show and not assume that everyone there secretly wants to kill me. I'm less afraid of people who understand and respect guns, than criminals who obtain guns illegally with the intent of using them to commit crimes, or the terrified urban dweller who gets a gun even though they've been trained to be terrified of guns and because they're terrified of everyone they meet.

For the vast majority, having a gun is NOT the central point of their lives you know. I own a gun like I own a drill or a refrigerator - it's not the defining characteristic of my life. I don't go up to people and go "Hi, I'm Ksinger, and I own a gun...wanna see it?? No, really. Wanna SEE IT????" I don't carry it around, and pet it and long for the next time I get to use it. I know what it's for, I respect its power to be used incorrectly, much like I would have a respect for a chainsaw, or any tool.

As for enjoying hunting, I've not met any hunters (and I've known a few) who had a bloodthirsty attitude towards the animals they hunt. Those exist of course, but the majority are not that way, and have a better respect and understanding of where their food comes from than people who have only ever seen meat in shrink wrap. Some creatures must die so that others may live, (even plants are living things), it's life. Ask any hunter and they will tell you that they spend so much time studying the animal they hunt that they can't be unmoved by what it is they do in killing that creature. Hunting for many is serious business and connects the hunter to the past, and honestly, it's a damn sight more "sporting" than cattle yards. All the hunter is doing is cutting out the middleman. My husband doesn't hunt anymore, because it WAS such a serious business, he found that killing a deer was very difficult emotionally to do. Fortunate for him, he had that happy option, of not having to do it. But it's how we humans lived for millenia, so to think that anyone who hunts simply "enjoys killing" , is way off in my estimation. In some ways modern hunters are braver and more unflinching than the rest of us moderns who have been spared the trauma of having to personally kill another living creature for survival. I am personally certain of my stomach to do that if necessary, but I damn sure would not "enjoy" it.

You know, these north vs south threads have been instructive for me. I have lived in a moderately large city my entire life. I am a foodie, lean liberal by most any standard, and an urbanite to my toenails, and yet, being a resident of a still mostly rural state, I realize that I have imbibed of that rural mindset much more than I even understood. And really, when we are talking North/South, what we're really talking about it urban/rural mindsets. And they are staggeringly different, and I see that more and more every day.

Sorry for the tangent guys, but really, this discussion is not all that tangential, since in a way it too goes to the heart of the OP's question...

 

[packrat]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Ksinger, you can't see it but I'm batting my eyelashes and making googly eyes at you right now. Good post.

 

[waterlilly]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Just a note on introducing natural predators, wolves aren't natural predators in Iowa, and they have introduced mountain lions here. You can't keep them in one section-they'll go where they please. Joe Farmers cattle and sheep maybe don't so much want a bunch of mountain lions introduced to the area. You can't tell a mountain lion "Just only eat the deer, the big ones, not the little cute Bambi's..and don't go after cattle or sheep, and don't go after Rex out in the backyard and little Fluffy that Mrs. Smith let outside to go potty" b/c most people who live in the country don't have fenced in back yards. (besides that, cats can jump and climb eh? What's a 6ft fence to a 7ft long 300# cat? At some point if you introduce enough to make a difference in the deer population, (mountain lions have a home range of 100 miles so I'm betting it's pretty hard to track how many cats v deer there are in any given area) you're going to have livestock being taken and that's going to hurt the farmers. And you're going to have pets being taken and that's going to hurt Little Billy and Sally. And you know what happens if you introduce enough to make a dent in the deer population in a 100 mile radius? They're going to be hungry..mountain lions are predators and they do not care if little Billy is outside in his big ole backyard and there aren't deer in the immediate vicinity... Wolves are the same way. At some point they will lose their fear of humans and then what? Relocate it? Won't work. Doesn't work.

Yeah, I was joking about the wolves. It's not that far a leap to realize that predators in the suburbs would eat people and pets, too.

But I still think it's creepy when people enjoy killing animals.

And KSinger -- I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of people with guns.

Sorry if I missed it, but you are a vegan I take it? It's not creepy that people don't mind housing animals in boxes and then slaughtering them in mass numbers?

Anyone against hunting that eats a scrap of meat bought from a grocery store or wears any leather product - really needs to take some time to find out what hunting is all about. On the topic of animal abuse, hunting is about as far down the list as you can get. An animal lives a completely natural life - and is killed by a bullet...even if it is wounded and killed hours later after being tracked - it still has undergone infinitely less suffering than animals mass produced on farms.

My only objection to hunting is trapping - leg traps - I hate them, that is not even remotely sport in my opinion, its just torture. It's lazy man's idea of hunting.

Take a basic wildlife biology course or wildlife management course, hunting is absolutely necessary to maintain healthy ecosystems where man is living. No predators + no hunting = extremely fast population boom leading to forest destruction, decline of biodiversity, unhealthy, diseased & suffering populations of deer.

If hunters do not hunt, the government will institute eradication programs.

People give hunters a bad rap, but responsible hunters are actually quite knowledgeable and concerned/ active with environmental issues. They want their sport to be around for a long time, they want wild spaces kept protected - they want animals hunted responsibly to make sure they stay healthy and produce healthy young. Most hunters know far more about the plants/animals / ecology etc. than the armchair nature/animal lovers that trash them.

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Just a note on introducing natural predators, wolves aren't natural predators in Iowa, and they have introduced mountain lions here. You can't keep them in one section-they'll go where they please. Joe Farmers cattle and sheep maybe don't so much want a bunch of mountain lions introduced to the area. You can't tell a mountain lion "Just only eat the deer, the big ones, not the little cute Bambi's..and don't go after cattle or sheep, and don't go after Rex out in the backyard and little Fluffy that Mrs. Smith let outside to go potty" b/c most people who live in the country don't have fenced in back yards. (besides that, cats can jump and climb eh? What's a 6ft fence to a 7ft long 300# cat? At some point if you introduce enough to make a difference in the deer population, (mountain lions have a home range of 100 miles so I'm betting it's pretty hard to track how many cats v deer there are in any given area) you're going to have livestock being taken and that's going to hurt the farmers. And you're going to have pets being taken and that's going to hurt Little Billy and Sally. And you know what happens if you introduce enough to make a dent in the deer population in a 100 mile radius? They're going to be hungry..mountain lions are predators and they do not care if little Billy is outside in his big ole backyard and there aren't deer in the immediate vicinity... Wolves are the same way. At some point they will lose their fear of humans and then what? Relocate it? Won't work. Doesn't work.

Yeah, I was joking about the wolves. It's not that far a leap to realize that predators in the suburbs would eat people and pets, too.

But I still think it's creepy when people enjoy killing animals.

And KSinger -- I'm not afraid of guns! I'm afraid of people with guns.

Why? I'm serious as I ask you...why? What makes a person simply owning a gun more dangerous or more likely to hurt you? The core assumptions about the nature of the people who own a gun just boggles my mind really. By saying you are afraid of people with guns, what you've really said is you're just afraid of other people, period. You and I both agree that it isn't the tool it's the person, where we diverge is on our view of other people. It's why I can easily walk through a gun show and not assume that everyone there secretly wants to kill me. I'm less afraid of people who understand and respect guns, than criminals who obtain guns illegally with the intent of using them to commit crimes, or the terrified urban dweller who gets a gun even though they've been trained to be terrified of guns and because they're terrified of everyone they meet.

For the vast majority, having a gun is NOT the central point of their lives you know. I own a gun like I own a drill or a refrigerator - it's not the defining characteristic of my life. I don't go up to people and go "Hi, I'm Ksinger, and I own a gun...wanna see it?? No, really. Wanna SEE IT????" I don't carry it around, and pet it and long for the next time I get to use it. I know what it's for, I respect its power to be used incorrectly, much like I would have a respect for a chainsaw, or any tool.

As for enjoying hunting, I've not met any hunters (and I've known a few) who had a bloodthirsty attitude towards the animals they hunt. Those exist of course, but the majority are not that way, and have a better respect and understanding of where their food comes from than people who have only ever seen meat in shrink wrap. Some creatures must die so that others may live, (even plants are living things), it's life. Ask any hunter and they will tell you that they spend so much time studying the animal they hunt that they can't be unmoved by what it is they do in killing that creature. Hunting for many is serious business and connects the hunter to the past, and honestly, it's a damn sight more "sporting" than cattle yards. All the hunter is doing is cutting out the middleman. My husband doesn't hunt anymore, because it WAS such a serious business, he found that killing a deer was very difficult emotionally to do. Fortunate for him, he had that happy option, of not having to do it. But it's how we humans lived for millenia, so to think that anyone who hunts simply "enjoys killing" , is way off in my estimation. In some ways modern hunters are braver and more unflinching than the rest of us moderns who have been spared the trauma of having to personally kill another living creature for survival. I am personally certain of my stomach to do that if necessary, but I damn sure would not "enjoy" it.

You know, these north vs south threads have been instructive for me. I have lived in a moderately large city my entire life. I am a foodie, lean liberal by most any standard, and an urbanite to my toenails, and yet, being a resident of a still mostly rural state, I realize that I have imbibed of that rural mindset much more than I even understood. And really, when we are talking North/South, what we're really talking about it urban/rural mindsets. And they are staggeringly different, and I see that more and more every day.

Sorry for the tangent guys, but really, this discussion is not all that tangential, since in a way it too goes to the heart of the OP's question...

Thank you for this. It's far more eloquent than I think I would have stated it, and is mostly my exact thought process!

Just to extend. Not all hunters "enjoy" killing animals. It's not some giddy excitement to go out and shoot things. Many hunt a) to control numbers and b) to have dinner on the table! There is a deep sense of respect for the animals, for the environment, and for the balance in nature. There's also a deep understanding of food, where it comes from and making use of everything possible. Not ALL hunters will have that respect, but the vast majority do. The animals taken have led healthy natural lives, vs. being stuck in cages they can't turn around in, or pens full of their feces. They are lean, making their meat much healthier. There are just many many aspects to it beyond killing an animal and hanging it on the wall.

Anyways, I'll maintain that cruelty and neglect are everywhere, so I don't think it is just the south.

** edited for spelling. I missed a g.

 

[CNOS128]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Why? I'm serious as I ask you...why? What makes a person simply owning a gun more dangerous or more likely to hurt you? The core assumptions about the nature of the people who own a gun just boggles my mind really. By saying you are afraid of people with guns, what you've really said is you're just afraid of other people, period. You and I both agree that it isn't the tool it's the person, where we diverge is on our view of other people. It's why I can easily walk through a gun show and not assume that everyone there secretly wants to kill me. I'm less afraid of people who understand and respect guns, than criminals who obtain guns illegally with the intent of using them to commit crimes, or the terrified urban dweller who gets a gun even though they've been trained to be terrified of guns and because they're terrified of everyone they meet.

For the vast majority, having a gun is NOT the central point of their lives you know. I own a gun like I own a drill or a refrigerator - it's not the defining characteristic of my life. I don't go up to people and go "Hi, I'm Ksinger, and I own a gun...wanna see it?? No, really. Wanna SEE IT????" I don't carry it around, and pet it and long for the next time I get to use it. I know what it's for, I respect its power to be used incorrectly, much like I would have a respect for a chainsaw, or any tool.

As for enjoying hunting, I've not met any hunters (and I've known a few) who had a bloodthirsty attitude towards the animals they hunt. Those exist of course, but the majority are not that way, and have a better respect and understanding of where their food comes from than people who have only ever seen meat in shrink wrap. Some creatures must die so that others may live, (even plants are living things), it's life. Ask any hunter and they will tell you that they spend so much time studying the animal they hunt that they can't be unmoved by what it is they do in killing that creature. Hunting for many is serious business and connects the hunter to the past, and honestly, it's a damn sight more "sporting" than cattle yards. All the hunter is doing is cutting out the middleman. My husband doesn't hunt anymore, because it WAS such a serious business, he found that killing a deer was very difficult emotionally to do. Fortunate for him, he had that happy option, of not having to do it. But it's how we humans lived for millenia, so to think that anyone who hunts simply "enjoys killing" , is way off in my estimation. In some ways modern hunters are braver and more unflinching than the rest of us moderns who have been spared the trauma of having to personally kill another living creature for survival. I am personally certain of my stomach to do that if necessary, but I damn sure would not "enjoy" it.

You know, these north vs south threads have been instructive for me. I have lived in a moderately large city my entire life. I am a foodie, lean liberal by most any standard, and an urbanite to my toenails, and yet, being a resident of a still mostly rural state, I realize that I have imbibed of that rural mindset much more than I even understood. And really, when we are talking North/South, what we're really talking about it urban/rural mindsets. And they are staggeringly different, and I see that more and more every day.

Sorry for the tangent guys, but really, this discussion is not all that tangential, since in a way it too goes to the heart of the OP's question...

KSinger -- I never said that a person owning a gun is more dangerous or more likely to hurt me. It's the willingness/intent/desire to kill another being that I find objectionable on a moral level. I'm not scared of gun-owners hurting me, I just think the attraction to and love of weapons is odd and distasteful. The fact that it's considered a "sport" rather than "finding food" is bothersome to me. It implies that there's a game and excitement involved in the act of killing something. That, I find creepy.
I also never said any such statement as "all hunters enjoy killing animals." I simply, and plainly, stated that I think people who enjoy killing animals are creepy. I think owning a gun for the purpose of shooting it at a paper target or a tin can or whatever else that is not living is A-OK. I myself have shot a .22 at a paper target (but not before mourning the loss of live of the trees who became said target). It is simply owning/cherishing/desiring a weapon for the purpose of taking a life that I find repulsive.
I also never brought any North vs. South issue into this conversation, so I don't care to address it now.

Waterlily -- While not a vegan, I do go out of my way to eat cruelty-free animal products. My eggs are from cage-free chickens, my milk is from happy local cows that are not kept in boxes, and my meat, on the rare occasion when I do eat it, is killed in a FAST and humane manner. It is very important to me that my food animals not suffer. But, most important -- I have no desire to kill it myself. As I said, it's the desire and willingness to kill living beings that I find creepy.

It's not like there's this dichotomy where you can either kill your own food or you have to eat animals that live in tiny cages in their own feces. There's a HUGE middle ground there. But whatever helps you sleep at night...

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

My eggs are from cage-free chickens,

Depressing news: Consumer Reports says the only requirement to label eggs as "free range" is that a door into their enclosure be open 15 minutes per day. They may be cage-free but are still crammed by the gazillion into a big room, loose. I imagine, though don't know for sure, that their beaks are still filed down to keep them from pecking each other due to crowding.

CR also points out re eggs from "antibiotic-free" chickens, for which you pay a premium, are a rip-off. It's illegal to give antibiotics to chickens at all, so they are all antibiotic-free.

 

[CNOS128]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

My eggs are from cage-free chickens,

Depressing news: Consumer Reports says the only requirement to label eggs as "free range" is that a door into their enclosure be open 15 minutes per day. They may be cage-free but are still crammed by the gazillion into a big room, loose. I imagine, though don't know for sure, that their beaks are still filed down to keep them from pecking each other due to crowding.

CR also points out re eggs from "antibiotic-free" chickens, for which you pay a premium, are a rip-off. It's illegal to give antibiotics to chickens at all, so they are all antibiotic-free.

Good news: I'm not talking about random eggs from a supermarket that are labeled as "free-range." I'm talking about small farms whose owners I know personally, and whose chickens I have personally seen roaming about. No big room. No cramming. No beak filing. No pecking each other. Sorry!

 

[MonkeyPie]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Good news: I'm not talking about random eggs from a supermarket that are labeled as "free-range." I'm talking about small farms whose owners I know personally, and whose chickens I have personally seen roaming about. No big room. No cramming. No beak filing. No pecking each other. Sorry!

You know, it's awesome that you support local farms/businesses and that you go out of your way to make sure that anything animal you eat was obtained in a gentler manner than the big farms that care less about the animals, and more about profits. Kudos to you for that.

However. Do you do this with EVERYTHING? Your attitude about it is sort of bad, like the rest of are not good people simply because we are willing to eat the eggs and meat that come from the Big Farms. That is so not the case here. (Not to mention, this thread is not totally OT.)

What about your cheese? Do you only buy that locally? Do you check all your household products to make sure they aren't animal tested? Are your shoes vegan? Even in things that are not technically animal-derived, there are still animal-based solutions in them. For example, Starburst has an oil in them that comes from cows (if I am not mistaken - been awhile since I knew anything about that particular fact).

Like I said...great that you make the effort. But I would hold the way you word things in check. We all have our own opinions and that's what makes PS fun. But there are a couple people in this thread that are hell-bent on pushing their own opinions onto others, for whatever reason. It's just rude.

 

[CNOS128]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Good news: I'm not talking about random eggs from a supermarket that are labeled as "free-range." I'm talking about small farms whose owners I know personally, and whose chickens I have personally seen roaming about. No big room. No cramming. No beak filing. No pecking each other. Sorry!

You know, it's awesome that you support local farms/businesses and that you go out of your way to make sure that anything animal you eat was obtained in a gentler manner than the big farms that care less about the animals, and more about profits. Kudos to you for that.

However. Do you do this with EVERYTHING? Your attitude about it is sort of bad, like the rest of are not good people simply because we are willing to eat the eggs and meat that come from the Big Farms. That is so not the case here. (Not to mention, this thread is not totally OT.)

What about your cheese? Do you only buy that locally? Do you check all your household products to make sure they aren't animal tested? Are your shoes vegan? Even in things that are not technically animal-derived, there are still animal-based solutions in them. For example, Starburst has an oil in them that comes from cows (if I am not mistaken - been awhile since I knew anything about that particular fact).

Like I said...great that you make the effort. But I would hold the way you word things in check. We all have our own opinions and that's what makes PS fun. But there are a couple people in this thread that are hell-bent on pushing their own opinions onto others, for whatever reason. It's just rude.

Actually, the ONLY reason I brought my egg-buying practicing into the conversation is because someone else asked me if I'm a vegan, and question my own, personal attitude towards animal-based food. I never said, and nor do I think, that other people should buy free-range cage-free eggs. But I make an effort to do so myself. I was explaining my OWN practices, and would not even have done so had Waterlily not directly asked me. I'm sorry if you think it's rude. I didn't and don't judge other people for whatever kind of eggs, milk, meat they buy. I never said anything even CLOSE to being judgmental about other people's chickens. Actually, if you read below (or above?), it's Dragonfly, JewelFreak, etc who mentioned the poor conditions that animals are raised in -- not me! The only thing I am judging is the people who enjoy killing animals for sport.
I also never claimed to be perfect. I'm sure I do things that other people think are morally wrong. I'm sure I do things unintentionall that are harmful to animals. And people. But I'm still allowed to disagree with hunting; and I do.

 

[mrs jam]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

G For example, Starburst has an oil in them that comes from cows (if I am not mistaken - been awhile since I knew anything about that particular fact).

Sorry to get way off-topic; I've been following this thread for a bit, and while it warms my heart to read about the efforts of so many of you to rescue precious animals from horrible conditions, my vegan soul cannot fathom how a person can view one type of animal as a family member yet have no problems eating the tortured flesh of another. If you consume animals raised in factory farms and murdered in slaughterhouses, you're contributing to the animal abuse of the most unimaginable kind. Someone (forgive me, but I'm just too lazy to scroll around and find out exactly whom) made a good point about hunters who at least spare animals the long term suffering they would endure at the hands of the food industry.

I'm pretty sure that Starburst has gelatin listed in their ingredients. Gelatin is an animal byproduct derived from the collagen inside animals' skin and bones. When I was a vegetarian working my way toward veganism, and I was shocked when I learned this tasty little fact. I used to be addicted to eating marshmallows (seriously, I would keep a ziplock baggy of miniature marshmallows in my purse!) until I realized what gelatin actually is. I can get them gelatin-free at Whole Foods, but they're kind of ruined for me now.

I don't mean to come off as preachy. My older brother is a hunter and is raising my nephew to hunt as well. He lives on 100 acres, raises his own chickens, grows his own veggies, and hunts animals on his own property. If I didn't know that there wasn't a religious bone in his body, I would swear the boy is getting ready for the apocolypse! In return for my teasing, he asks me if I've stopped shaving my armpits now that I'm vegan. Again, I know I'm contributing to the off-topic-y turn this thread has taken, but if people would do a research into their own lifestyle choices they might be shocked at the animal pain and suffering to which they are indeed contributing, even if your dog is well-fed, happy, loved, and wears Juicy Couture.

 

[mrs jam]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Good news: I'm not talking about random eggs from a supermarket that are labeled as "free-range." I'm talking about small farms whose owners I know personally, and whose chickens I have personally seen roaming about. No big room. No cramming. No beak filing. No pecking each other. Sorry!

You know, it's awesome that you support local farms/businesses and that you go out of your way to make sure that anything animal you eat was obtained in a gentler manner than the big farms that care less about the animals, and more about profits. Kudos to you for that.

However. Do you do this with EVERYTHING? Your attitude about it is sort of bad, like the rest of are not good people simply because we are willing to eat the eggs and meat that come from the Big Farms. That is so not the case here. (Not to mention, this thread is not totally OT.)

What about your cheese? Do you only buy that locally? Do you check all your household products to make sure they aren't animal tested? Are your shoes vegan? Even in things that are not technically animal-derived, there are still animal-based solutions in them. For example, Starburst has an oil in them that comes from cows (if I am not mistaken - been awhile since I knew anything about that particular fact).

Like I said...great that you make the effort. But I would hold the way you word things in check. We all have our own opinions and that's what makes PS fun. But there are a couple people in this thread that are hell-bent on pushing their own opinions onto others, for whatever reason. It's just rude.

Actually, the ONLY reason I brought my egg-buying practicing into the conversation is because someone else asked me if I'm a vegan, and question my own, personal attitude towards animal-based food. I never said, and nor do I think, that other people should buy free-range cage-free eggs. But I make an effort to do so myself. I was explaining my OWN practices, and would not even have done so had Waterlily not directly asked me. I'm sorry if you think it's rude. I didn't and don't judge other people for whatever kind of eggs, milk, meat they buy. I never said anything even CLOSE to being judgmental about other people's chickens. Actually, if you read below (or above?), it's Dragonfly, JewelFreak, etc who mentioned the poor conditions that animals are raised in -- not me! The only thing I am judging is the people who enjoy killing animals for sport.
I also never claimed to be perfect. I'm sure I do things that other people think are morally wrong. I'm sure I do things unintentionall that are harmful to animals. And people. But I'm still allowed to disagree with hunting; and I do.

I really applaud you for making the effort to make informed consumer choices! It really does take some research and effort, and no one is perfect, but the point is to try.

 

[dragonfly411]

Re: Who Can Explain the Attitude Toward Dogs in the U.S. Sou

Why? I'm serious as I ask you...why? What makes a person simply owning a gun more dangerous or more likely to hurt you? The core assumptions about the nature of the people who own a gun just boggles my mind really. By saying you are afraid of people with guns, what you've really said is you're just afraid of other people, period. You and I both agree that it isn't the tool it's the person, where we diverge is on our view of other people. It's why I can easily walk through a gun show and not assume that everyone there secretly wants to kill me. I'm less afraid of people who understand and respect guns, than criminals who obtain guns illegally with the intent of using them to commit crimes, or the terrified urban dweller who gets a gun even though they've been trained to be terrified of guns and because they're terrified of everyone they meet.

For the vast majority, having a gun is NOT the central point of their lives you know. I own a gun like I own a drill or a refrigerator - it's not the defining characteristic of my life. I don't go up to people and go "Hi, I'm Ksinger, and I own a gun...wanna see it?? No, really. Wanna SEE IT????" I don't carry it around, and pet it and long for the next time I get to use it. I know what it's for, I respect its power to be used incorrectly, much like I would have a respect for a chainsaw, or any tool.

As for enjoying hunting, I've not met any hunters (and I've known a few) who had a bloodthirsty attitude towards the animals they hunt. Those exist of course, but the majority are not that way, and have a better respect and understanding of where their food comes from than people who have only ever seen meat in shrink wrap. Some creatures must die so that others may live, (even plants are living things), it's life. Ask any hunter and they will tell you that they spend so much time studying the animal they hunt that they can't be unmoved by what it is they do in killing that creature. Hunting for many is serious business and connects the hunter to the past, and honestly, it's a damn sight more "sporting" than cattle yards. All the hunter is doing is cutting out the middleman. My husband doesn't hunt anymore, because it WAS such a serious business, he found that killing a deer was very difficult emotionally to do. Fortunate for him, he had that happy option, of not having to do it. But it's how we humans lived for millenia, so to think that anyone who hunts simply "enjoys killing" , is way off in my estimation. In some ways modern hunters are braver and more unflinching than the rest of us moderns who have been spared the trauma of having to personally kill another living creature for survival. I am personally certain of my stomach to do that if necessary, but I damn sure would not "enjoy" it.

You know, these north vs south threads have been instructive for me. I have lived in a moderately large city my entire life. I am a foodie, lean liberal by most any standard, and an urbanite to my toenails, and yet, being a resident of a still mostly rural state, I realize that I have imbibed of that rural mindset much more than I even understood. And really, when we are talking North/South, what we're really talking about it urban/rural mindsets. And they are staggeringly different, and I see that more and more every day.

Sorry for the tangent guys, but really, this discussion is not all that tangential, since in a way it too goes to the heart of the OP's question...

KSinger -- I never said that a person owning a gun is more dangerous or more likely to hurt me. It's the willingness/intent/desire to kill another being that I find objectionable on a moral level. I'm not scared of gun-owners hurting me, I just think the attraction to and love of weapons is odd and distasteful. The fact that it's considered a "sport" rather than "finding food" is bothersome to me. It implies that there's a game and excitement involved in the act of killing something. That, I find creepy.
I also never said any such statement as "all hunters enjoy killing animals." I simply, and plainly, stated that I think people who enjoy killing animals are creepy. I think owning a gun for the purpose of shooting it at a paper target or a tin can or whatever else that is not living is A-OK. I myself have shot a .22 at a paper target (but not before mourning the loss of live of the trees who became said target). It is simply owning/cherishing/desiring a weapon for the purpose of taking a life that I find repulsive.
I also never brought any North vs. South issue into this conversation, so I don't care to address it now.

Waterlily -- While not a vegan, I do go out of my way to eat cruelty-free animal products. My eggs are from cage-free chickens, my milk is from happy local cows that are not kept in boxes, and my meat, on the rare occasion when I do eat it, is killed in a FAST and humane manner. It is very important to me that my food animals not suffer. But, most important -- I have no desire to kill it myself. As I said, it's the desire and willingness to kill living beings that I find creepy.

It's not like there's this dichotomy where you can either kill your own food or you have to eat animals that live in tiny cages in their own feces. There's a HUGE middle ground there. But whatever helps you sleep at night...

Thebig - Good news is most (and I Say most, not all) hunters who look at it as a sport, are also the ones who look at it as a food source. That head mounted on the wall would otherwise be tossed away... a waste of the deer's head. The neck meat and the rest of the body are butchered, cleaned, and used for various meats, including venison sausages. Because those animals lived wild their meat is healthier, and they are au natural. The hunters aim for a swift, easy kill so the animal doesn't suffer (although again, I will say this is a most case scenario, not all). The same for turkeys and hogs. I really hope this puts some of the distaste at ease because truly most hunters are looking to make the most use out of every part of the animals. This is gory, but the insides, and legs, those are generally mixed with food to be fed to the dogs, so that they do not go to waste. Yes it is exciting when it's a 12 point monster buck, but not because it's exciting to kill him. It's exciting because he gives more meat, has lead a long life, has extended his gene pool over that life, and yes, his antlers make a trophy, but his meat will keep for over a year!

I am a lot like you in trying to make informed decisions about what I eat, and game meat is some of the healthiest meat you will ever eat, and they have led the most natural lives possible. I too eat free range eggs (soon to be again from SO's mom, more red bantams and ducks), grass fed beef (the university has started selling theirs I believe, and there are farms we go to close by and we split cows with others) and as natural of other foods as possible. Where I went back and researched something waterlily spoke about earlier, I'd suggest reading up on wild game meats and the goals behind most sport hunting! Truly it's not all about "the kill" and "gettin' that wall trophy", though big antlers don't hurt