Speaking of pretty blue/green tourmalines...

[T L]

Hi Josh

So TL, wouldn't AGL have the equipment to identify such a stone and its location? According to GRS, there's several techniques used for this.

From GRS from their 2009 study:

"We found it useful to investigate the origin based on chemical fingerprints using different methods, including EMPA, LIBS, LA-ICP-MS and ED-XRF analyses. Based on these analyses, it was found that the chemical composition of copper-bearing tourmalines from Mozambique, Nigeria and Brazil show distinct differences, which are sufficient selective to determine their origin"

I would assume that all of the major labs have the ability to test for location, or at least I would find one that could.

If clarity enhanced, I would assume that could be found out rather easily under a microscope by an experienced person. I know there is talk of using several types of CE's from oil to Opticon. Many of these have been easily found under a microsocope.

I don't know what a lab report from the 90s would have done, considering the evolution of processes today. I also don't doubt there's cutters out there with stuff they've held on to over the years that they never figured they'd have to send to a lab right away.

I'm going to post some information I found on GRS website. I'm still reading through this, as its quite extensive. I've gotten a lot of great info though.

http://www.gemresearch.ch/journal/No9/page01.htm


He does make mention that the heated stones were mostly blue/green and that not all the purple tourms were unheated. I'm still trying to read through how that determination was made.

High valuable copper-bearing tourmalines occur in different color and large size and are produced in Brazil, Mozambique and Nigeria. The sizes and distribution of these gemstones in the gem market were studied and a statistic about the trade has been published in this report. These types of tourmalines include many different color varieties and are found as heated as well as unheated gems (Fig. Par07 and 12). Unusual large sizes have been found from the mines in Mozambique. The majority of the stones have been heat-treated in the greenish-blue to blue colors, whereas the purple and green colors are more frequently spared of thermal enhancement (Fig. Par07). These findings are in good agreement with the findings from heat-treatment experiments (Lit. Par33), which predicted that heat-treatment of green colors, is possible with limited success only. Copper-bearing tourmalines from Brazil such as from the state of “Paraiba” were more often found to be unheated than Mozambique tourmalines. Gem quality “Paraiba”-tourmalines does occur in much smaller sizes than the African counterparts, but they are generally more saturated in color. According to our opinion, large-sized unheated gem-quality tourmalines from Brazil (Paraiba or Rio Grande do Norte) with intense “neon”-blue colors can be described as extremely rare (See Fig. Par07, 08, 11 and 12).

There's much more in that report that I have to read and understand, but its slow going. *i'm not a scientist *

Now, by the same token, anything you buy, unless you don't get it out of the ground yourself, or know every single person in the supply chain, you have to have faith in the seller that hes disclosing any and all treatment information. Then you have to be able to verify it.

But from what you've said TL it can't be verified.


On undetectable treatments like radiation, thats been going on for some time apparently.

Here's a few other studies I found on tourmalines

published in 1975
http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM60/AM60_710.pdf


and in 1988
http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM73/AM73_822.pdf

Another from 1988 on Gemstone irradiation
http://lgdl.gia.edu/pdfs/ashbaughw88.pdf

So if they were doing this stuff then, what does that say about the tourmalines we've got now? does that mean that anything after 1975 is possibly irradiated? maybe, I don't know, I'm still reading to find that out.

I know you trust your source TL, but I have to say, being his wife sells gems and jewelery, I put in him the realm of vendor. This is not saying that his info is bad, Its saying at the end of the day, they sell stuff too.

Everyone should do their own research as much as they can, and also have some measure of trust that the seller is disclosing any and all treatments. If you can't trust the seller is disclosing to their knowledge true information about a thing, then its a good policy to not buy from them. I take that to heart anytime I buy a gemstone these days, because of the level of stones I'm now buying! this ish gets xpensive!

I research everything I can like mad, because I at least want to be educated about what I'm buying. And while I do rely on others experience, I still try to find that proof myself.

So I do appreciate the information given TL, I don't want o you to think otherwise, but I also have to say that I will disagree with some of it. Josh's company is selling the stone true, but I also don't think they'd be willing to mess up their longstanding reputation either. Pricescope is good and bad for some vendors, that is something I'm sure they're all aware of.

The stone to me dosen't look bad the cut is very nice which I think makes the stone look quite lovely. Color saturation looks very good to me without being too dark. Being the stone was taken with a Canon Powershot G3, I'm sure whomever took it bent over the stone to get the shot.

And in the case of these stones, didn't you say that copper bearing stones don't always show their beauty in pictures? We also know that pricescope kills pictures. On my home screen when I open the picture, its very nice looking.

Region of where the stone is from can be verified. The heat issue, well generally 600cc on a tourmaline isn't all that high, but there may be other markers that the stone is unheated, I'm reading about this right now to see if it can be determined. Filled fractures, if they were filled, likely can be verified as well.

So to me, it makes sense to do background on the vendor, engage the vendor to see if both of you meet eye to eye, ask questions about the stone, have the stone checked by an independent 3rd party. A sale of a stone of this caliber should always be contingent on a lab report. If I were to move forward, thats exactly what I would do.

Treatments will always evolve, And that means you either stop buying until those treatments are detectable or, you get educated and make a decision on what for you is the best possible way to go. For some that means they don't buy anything, for others, they do and enjoy it for what it is.


Colored stones is crazy but well. isn't life?

-A

Hi A.

It's not that I completely put all my trust in whatever my source has to say. The problem is that I am having difficulty finding any additional information that refutes with what he has to say (as I have been doing my own research), as far as irradiation detection in tourmaline is concerned. That being said, I do believe the AGL can provide the origin of these stones, which may be of some comfort, but that does not guarantee they are not irradiated or not heated to my knowledge. I just believe people should exercise caution these days when buying indicolites, especially those that are very expensive. There are some gems that do have detectable treatment, and by all means, I feel they are safer to buy with reputable lab reports. I will probably stop buying anything the day all gems have non detectable treatment and consider myself lucky for the few natural colored gems I currently own.

I did see those articles on irradiated tourmaline, but I think they were done to a small few, on a limited basis. The treatment may have been too expensive back then to conduct on such material on a widespread basis. With the recent advent of nuclear accelerator facilities in Brazil that can mass irradiate tons of gems, including tourmaline, it is more widespread.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Arcadian, and if you love the color of that tourmaline in the second photo, then that's fine. I would be lying to you if I told you I loved it, as I do not, and I did look at it on my good monitor. I'm worried it will be overly dark in person. However, I do agree with others that viewing a stone in person is best, as PS does sometimes kill the color of some photos. However, the more neon stones tend to be lighter in tone, and more of that turquoise color, which this is not. I also don't know who Josh is, and I've never heard of his company before, so I'm not sure of his reputation and his vendor reliability, so I can't comment there.

 

[LD]

Ok, forget for one minute the locality of this gem because after all there are good and bad from all mines!

So, having said that, is the stone neon? That's what sets true Paraiba Tourmaline apart from other "Paraiba" Tourmalines. Just because it has copper (or even a high concentration of copper) it actually doesn't mean that it's a great Paraiba Tourmaline.

I've always wanted a darker blue BUT NEON Paraiba Tourmaline and they are exceptionally hard to come by. Having seen the daylight picture, I (personally) wouldn't buy this gem because it doesn't have the neonicity I expect and I have NEVER seen one that looks so dark in daylight. It's most definitely an unusual Tourmaline and if it appeals to you in colour then of course this is the gem for you. Does it stack up against the best Paraiba Tourmaline from Brazil? No it doesn't and therefore the price should reflect that. BTW I haven't looked at the price so this is a general comment. What does give it a bit of an edge is IF it can be authenticated as from Brazil then there's possibly a slight premium attached. Not enough to buy the crown jewels though!


EDIT: BTW Rubellite Tourmaline is most definitely being irradiated - it's logical therefore to draw the conclusion that other forms of Tourmaline may have/will have/have been cooked too!

 

[Arcadian]

Ok, forget for one minute the locality of this gem because after all there are good and bad from all mines!

So, having said that, is the stone neon? That's what sets true Paraiba Tourmaline apart from other "Paraiba" Tourmalines. Just because it has copper (or even a high concentration of copper) it actually doesn't mean that it's a great Paraiba Tourmaline.

I've always wanted a darker blue BUT NEON Paraiba Tourmaline and they are exceptionally hard to come by. Having seen the daylight picture, I (personally) wouldn't buy this gem because it doesn't have the neonicity I expect and I have NEVER seen one that looks so dark in daylight. It's most definitely an unusual Tourmaline and if it appeals to you in colour then of course this is the gem for you. Does it stack up against the best Paraiba Tourmaline from Brazil? No it doesn't and therefore the price should reflect that. BTW I haven't looked at the price so this is a general comment. What does give it a bit of an edge is IF it can be authenticated as from Brazil then there's possibly a slight premium attached. Not enough to buy the crown jewels though!


EDIT: BTW Rubellite Tourmaline is most definitely being irradiated - it's logical therefore to draw the conclusion that other forms of Tourmaline may have/will have/have been cooked too!

From MY limited but ever growing (I think...lol) understanding, there's a particular formula that the major labs use to determine if a stone can be called "Paraiba Tourmaline" and this stone would be hard to refute that if that location was determined along with the markers they used.

is it Neon, well based on one of the pictures I would have said yes, the other I would have said no. From what I know, copper is not a determination if a stone will or won't be neon. Stones from Afghanistan can also be neon, and they don't tend to have copper in them. So I don't exactly know what chemically happens to make a stone neon yet. I'm reading all that (man its a lot to read!! )

I wouldn't expect it to be the best Paraiba in the world, I ain't that rich! But yeah, its unusual enough that its intriguing, sure. dark blue copper bearing tourmaline apparently are quite rare.

The price hasn't been disclosed. I wouldn't disclose it as its something I think the seller, if they wanted people to know, would do. There are many sellers who don't disclose the price of certain stones, and that is something I'm ok with. I always ask if I'm that interested.

At any rate, I think the stone has prompted some good conversations! I don't think thats bad in any way. Its certainly helped to push my knowledge base a bit further, something I always consider to be good.


-A

 

[LD]

Arc - I agree, it's been a very interesting conversation.

You're right that chemical make-up will determine whether a stone should be considered "Paraiba Tourmaline" or not and in fact that's been the cause of the debate as to whether Mozambique "Paraiba" Tourmalines should allowed to be called such. However, the gold standard is whether it has all that AND neonicity! That's actually where the value lies. I've got a few articles filed, let me dig them out and post up.

BTW I wasn't trying to find out the price! When I looked at your link the picture was just there and I didn't bother to go any further and look to see if there was a price attached. My only caution would be that PT attracts an enormous premium if it's an "all that and more" stone but because of the scarcity of material from Brazil, there is now a premium for good AND bad stone.

 

[T L]

Unfortunately, the double edged sword is that many gems world wide are passed through this treatment facility in Brazil, for irradiation.

http://translate.google.com/transla...gEwAQ&prev=/search?q=Embrarad&hl=en&prmd=ivns

And I've heard this by more than one source. So, if a gem comes out of Brazi, it is even more suspect. They can migrate from Africa, Afghanistan, and other places to Brazil, or come right out of Brazil itself, and be treated. What I'm not sure of is if the neon glowy turquoise Paraibas can be irradiated to that color. I know they are heated to that color, but as far as irradiation, I am currently trying to find out.

 

[LD]

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.cbesa.com.br/&ei=g-aUTbmNE8Gw0QH8pr38Cw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3DEmbrarad%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Divns

TL just corrected your link because it went to the home page in your link - I think this is the page you wanted to reference?????

 

[T L]

Thanks LD, that's it!

I found this comment on a site I cannot link to here (sorry!!) from a spokesperson from "Embrarad"

Quote:
"Hi ,

I am named Mauricio Favacho, our company CBE-Embrarad in Brazil treat a lot of gemstone using cobalt-60 gamma irradiation process, green and blue fluorites is one of those that is used for treating, beyond tourmalines, quartz, beryls, spodumenes (kunzites) and so on. For more information access our site or send me a email.

Sincerely

www.cbesa.com.br
[email protected]

_________________
MAURICIO FAVACHO"

If you cannot absolutely confirm where an indicolite comes from, then I would really be careful. For example, if you know your stone was dug up in some place that does not irradiate tourmaline (ie "Maine USA") and you know 100% that your gem never left the country, then perhaps you have a lot more reason to feel secure in knowing your tourmaline was not irradiated.

 

[stylish1]

I've looked at the stone as best I could on my PC and think this is not the paraiba tourmaline I'm used to seeing. It looks like a blue tourmaline, indicollite maybe, which is not bad, but too many questions unanswered. The GIA can under most stances ID the stones origin with ruby, emerald, sapphire, and tourmaline, under certain conditions, not all kinds of tourmaline. Not a really bad stone and not knowing the price, I would probably return it. Too many unanswered questions even by professionals.

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Tourmaline Lover:
I have really enjoyed reading the exchange of ideas in this thread, which is what pricescope is all about. If any topic sparks conversation and education I am all for it and I applaud your inquiries as well as anyone elses. The bottom line is there are a myriad of treatments going on in the market today and as a vendor we back our products 100%. There are some definitive and non-definitive methods regarding treatment detection of tourmaline. This piece in particular was a piece of our personal collection and until recently has not been for sale. I would be more than happy to provide any potential customer a Lab report of their choosing pending possible purchase.
On a more personal note TL I have been a member of the forum since near inception. I started like many of us as a collector and a enthusiast like yourself. I started a joint venture between myself and an AGTA award winning cutter Stephen Kotlowski back in December as a labor of love in helping him market his goods.

My Pricescope profile is here:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/who-s-who/the-colored-gemstone-nut-josh-t10418.html']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/who-s-who/the-colored-gemstone-nut-josh-t10418.html[/URL]

I want to add in the forums infancy I am the one who suggested to Leonid and helped originate the "Colored-Stones" section of this forum in 2002, so you can share my excitement to see the growth it has gone through and the many different consumers and vendors who share a space in helping share knowledge.

The Paraiba is indeed a beautiful stone which should be seen in person as well as any potential purchase, accompanied by a lab report and independent appraisal if the client so deems necessary. I, like you am passionate about people and gemstones and am glad to make your acquaintance. Warmest!

 

[Arcadian]

I've looked at the stone as best I could on my PC and think this is not the paraiba tourmaline I'm used to seeing. It looks like a blue tourmaline, indicollite maybe, which is not bad, but too many questions unanswered. The GIA can under most stances ID the stones origin with ruby, emerald, sapphire, and tourmaline, under certain conditions, not all kinds of tourmaline. Not a really bad stone and not knowing the price, I would probably return it. Too many unanswered questions even by professionals.

There's lots of questions unanswered about plenty of stones including at the professional level. They don't always agree on things either.

Again, as far as the price at a certain level and at a point given rarity of certain stones, sellers do use their discretion to make that information available for buyers who are very interested in the product.

I have also seen other images of the stone, and can only that I would consider the stone close to sapphire blue with a small touch of green. But I would say that its not the color of paraiba that most of us are used to seeing

We are all thankfully different in our taste for stones, and what appeals to the gem freak in us. I'm partial to dark blues, as can be attested by my choice in blue spinels!

So with that, I do think its pretty, its unusual, and has an unusual history behind it. The seller has offered the stone for sale contingent upon an independent lab report, and that to me says they're not just throwing around BS and standing behind their stone 100%. I don't think more can be asked as thats as much as they can humanly do.

Josh, knew by your date you were a heck of an oldhead. Thanks for being transparent as to who you are.


-A

 

[blithesome71]

Such a lovely tourm color (Swalagem)

Just want to share this dark paraiba africana tourmaline I found for eye pleasure hehe

Here: http://www.hassamventures.com/inventoryd.php?class=Tourmaline&subclass=Blue%20-%20Cut