The trouble with ideal scope!!

[ctang]

Well, actually, the trouble is not the ideal scope itself, it''s that when I used it to look at diamonds in the store, the sale people get upset!

I just came from the diamond district at 47th st in New York. I went to a couple of stores...

Problem #1, I seem to know more that the sale people from reading this site and other place on the net. They try to explain what GIA is to me, I tell them what pavillion angles I want, then they seem stunned and don''t know how to find that info.

Problem #2, they show a couple of "good ones" based on GIA table and depth, I pull out the ideal scope and see leaks and a mess of arrows, so I reject them, then a manager almost threw me out of the store!

** Can someone recommend a few stores in New York that have knowledge people and don''t mind the customer use their own tools?

CTang

 

[diamondsbylauren]

WOW Ctang! That sounds pretty horrible!

But the first thing I would tell people is that 47th street, as a place to buy a diamond on the street level is......dangerous.
Only the very best stores anywhere can guarantee that every person behind the counter knows enough about the cut of a diamond to have an educated conversation.
But there's another issue here.
The ideal scope is controversial for a number of reasons.
One of which is: I've never seen a professional diamond dealer use one- nor do I use one.
Many sellers do not endorse the ideal scope, or feel that it is an accurate tool for judging the cut of a diamond. In many cases these sellers might not be comfortable with someone whipping it out.
Of course, it's not going to hurt the diamond, and a smart sensitive seller should of course allow you to use the thing.

SO- the Ideal Scope may work well in an internet shopping situation.
You will surely find a lot of sellers on PS that endorse it's use and will even provide ideal scope images for you. But it could cause some B/M sellers to be uncomfortable- For buyers that believe in this item ( the ideal scope), it's surely best to stay away from sellers that won't allow you to use it comfortably.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

That is wonderful Dinasuar speak David for most diamonds are lousy cut and the dealers are sick of people who do not believe their usual sales line.


And to say they have never seen it before and do not know what it is - well - of course they know what it is and what it does - they just do not have good enough mercchandise and need to desperately get people out of their stores or stalls so other customers do not overhear and find out how bad their stones are.

 

[diamondlil]

I had to laugh, CTang, when I read your post. I've run into the same agitated vendors at jewelry shows when I've *whipped out* my handy ideal scope. I have never had anyone not *let me* use it, but a few certainly have tried to brush me off or given me the cold shoulder. I totally agree with Gary that they probably do know what it is and just don't have anything close to ideal to use it on -- at least that has been my experience. I've educated many a bystander on its use and sent them to Garry's website -- hey, maybe I should get a commission.

DiamondLil

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thanks Lil

I would like to ask everyone with a scope to go out at least 1x a month and raise awareness of the cut issue.

The first part of solving any problem is to identify that there is a problem, and many people in the diamond trade do not really, first hand, up front and personal like, know they have a problem.

Just wait until GIA begin getting stones back for recerting - there will be some rude shocks.

 

[Jennifer5973]

Frankly, whether it's an idealscope or an Ovaltine Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Loupe--the consumer should be allowed to examine a stone in any way he/she chooses.

These absurd reactions would make me want to run in the other direction from that store as fast as I could.

 

[synth19]

I hear ya man, I had a similar incident. A salesman basically told me to "f**k off, GIA is all you need, but since you are such a pest, I don't need your business" Simply because I asked for Sarin angles..

 

[trex]

ctang,

I had the same exact experience. Even though I didn't pull out an instrument, just the fact that I was asking to many questions, got me a cold shoulder.

I stay by my statement that the NYC Diamond District is worst than a used car lot if you are an amateur.

.Trex

 

[diamondsbylauren]

----------------
On 10/16/2004 8:07:20 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

That is wonderful Dinasuar speak David for most diamonds are lousy cut and the dealers are sick of people who do not believe their usual sales line.


And to say they have never seen it before and do not know what it is - well - of course they know what it is and what it does - they just do not have good enough mercchandise and need to desperately get people out of their stores or stalls so other customers do not overhear and find out how bad their stones are.----------------

Jewelry stores are tired of loosing sales to the internet, this is surely true.


I traveled the US for 20 years selling diamonds to jewelry stores.

I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior, but please consider something. The fact is, if we're talking about independant jewelers, very few stores have buyers that have good understanding of "make"- forget about how many salespeople have such knowledge. That does not mean they are not good people.
Imagine how tough it is for them to have people walking in shopping that know more about the cut of a diamond than they do. With the intenet this happens a lot today.
That does not mean that they have been selling ugly diamonds. Contrary o what Garry was saying, there's a lot of well cut diamonds out there.
When I was selling to stores, I made sure to give my customers well cut stones. So- the typical retail jeweler needs to work with good dealers and brokers to supply them with quality cut diamonds. Regrettably that's not the case all the time.

NO dealer I know uses this piece of plastic- I've never seen it used in the diamond club.
SO- if the people at the very top of the trade do not use it- and most have never even heard of it- how could you possibly make a claim that most salespeople in malls or typical B/M jewelers would know what it is???

Furthermore- if stores or dealers believe in this tool, they would use it when they buy diamonds for stock, and provide it to customers whenever they show the diamonds.

I agree 100% with those who say "move on if you are not comfortable with the seller."
Why even consider proceeding with the purchase of a diamond if you use the ideal scope, and the seller does not? For those buyers who want to see how their diamond looks in an ideal scope, find a dealer who uses it.

Garry likes to use a "dinasaur" analogy. Call it whatever you want, I have been able to survive in a tough business because I know which diamonds to buy and which ones to skip. I have been lucky to work with some very intelligent people in the diamond business. There are a lot of smart people cutting diamonds producing some awesome stones.
Sure, there are a lot of badly cut diamonds, and also a lot of bad deals.
Having an ideal scope is not going to guarantee the buyer gets a good deal, or buys the best diamond for them.
Selecting the best dealer will handle those issues.
For those people looking for stones which look good in an ideal scope, go to a seller who uses and endorses this tool.
BUT it is a huge mistake to assume that dealers who do not use an ideal scope are not aware of the cut, and able to select desirable well cut stones.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I did not say every Mall store every where David, I said the 47th street precinct where we know so many posters on this board have been shopping with Ideal-scopes.

We still hear stories about mall stroe staff who do not know what a H&A's viewer is.
And you yourself only learned that there is a difference between an Ideal-Scope and a H&A's viewer a few months back.

The fact that many diamond dealers do not use Ideal-scopes and other tools is because they are dinosuars. That does not make them right - it makes them dealers who buy and sell - they do not care all that much about what they buy and sell, it is $$$'s and margins, not beauty they deal in.
These same guys will largely make the transition to the new grading reports and survive in business because they are business people. They need not know or care too much about diamonds. Many do not know that GIA Sym and Polish are not the same as proportion grades. They do not need to know.

 

[diamondsbylauren]

Oh- you meant the retail business on 47th Street. NOw there's a bunch of educated, non pushy sellers. And my bathtub is bigger than the Pacific Ocean.......

Seriously the "upstairs" of 47th street is one of the worlds most active diamond trading centers- it's totally unrelated to the retail 47TH street.

----------------
On 10/16/2004 11:44:20 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

The fact that many diamond dealers do not use Ideal-scopes and other tools is because they are dinosuars. That does not make them right - it makes them dealers who buy and sell - they do not care all that much about what they buy and sell, it is $$$'s and margins, not beauty they deal in.
These same guys will largely make the transition to the new grading reports and survive in business because they are business people. They need not know or care too much about diamonds. Many do not know that GIA Sym and Polish are not the same as proportion grades. They do not need to know.----------------

Garry- you are nothing if not outspoken, I'll give you that.
Here's what I think:
Sure there are dealers driven purely by profit, but they are never the best.
The best of this business ( you said "guys"- but of course there's a lot of women in this business too)- the best people in this business rise to the top because they know how to combine artistic production with fiscal responsiblity.
Companies like Cartier, Winston, Faberge did not rise to the top by cutting ugly diamonds and manufacturing ugly jewelry.

Maybe the reason GIA waited so long to introduce a cut grade, and the fact it's going to be far wider in parameter than AGS 0 cut grade- is because GIA recognizes standardization does not work in an industry where creativity is the lifeblood.

 

[Superidealist]

Jennifer5973 wrote:

... Ovaltine Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Loupe...

Consumers can certainly use this loupe if they wish and it may be of some use if you know how diamonds you prefer appear in it, but let us not forget that this technology has not been shown to meet the rigorous standards necessary to establish its results as fact nor has it been endorsed by any of the major labs.

 

[hey joey]

unfortunately gia does not provide any extra info such as crown or pavillion angles. only choose ags diamonds, they have all the detailed info that you want. 90% of the diamond dealers you visit don't have any sarin in house. good luck

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Joey the point we were discussing is that if you have an ideal-scope the Sarin data is not required.
And if you have Jennifers Ovaltine Little Orphan Annie Secret Decoder Loupe, then you even have no need for diamonds (ROFL

)

 

[mdx]

David
One of the larger sight holders visits us every month. Their rep mentioned that he always comes to us first because we buy with an Ideal Scope. We can run through his stock in a fraction of time that it takes other buyers. What’s even better for us is, we pick all the good stuff first.
Johan

 

[Jennifer5973]

Garry, please know I was drawing the comparison between two extremes--a legitimate tool (Idealscope) and whatever crazy method by which a customer might want to judge a stone (Orphan Annie tool). Don't these stores remember that the customer is always right?

Good grief--I've gone to my jewelers with my loupe, a magnifying glass and made him hold a stone up against a light bulb while I photographed it with my digital camera so I could "analyze" the pics on my computer...and he just stands there and smiles!

 

[starfire]

Garry,

Your response sounds uncharacteristically defensive, and unfair to the vast majority of otherwise excellent jewellers worldwide tarred by your massive paintbrush.

I agree with Diamondsbylauren that I have never seen this tool used in the Diamond Exchange here as well, and not at Basel, Hong Kong or some other shows as well.

While your tool sounds interesting, it is no reason to make general assumptions that "MOST" diamonds are "lousy cut" and "dealers are sick of people who do not believe their usual sales line."

In contrast, I have found DiamondsbyLauren's points valid and reasonable. (Which isn't to say that I don't find your other points in this forum to be otherwise very useful and valid)

Best regards,
Stephen Tan
Charlotte Atelier
Singapore

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On 10/16/2004 8:07:20 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

That is wonderful Dinasuar speak David for most diamonds are lousy cut and the dealers are sick of people who do not believe their usual sales line.


And to say they have never seen it before and do not know what it is - well - of course they know what it is and what it does - they just do not have good enough mercchandise and need to desperately get people out of their stores or stalls so other customers do not overhear and find out how bad their stones are.----------------

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You are right that the trade is slow to accept things like the Ideal-scope - but it took almost 10 years for H&A's to migrate from Japan to USA Stephan.

I do deliberately tease Dinasuar David, and it is naughty of me, but we have so few dinasuars willing to come out here and play in the open. (Beside it gives my lovely wife some respite

)

Do you or have you used the Ideal-Scope Stephan?
Have you ever selected 10 diamonds from a parcel and graded them with it, put them in a black tray in that oredr and then examined them in a few different lightings?

And even if you do not like the tool - I am sure you would never be rude to anyone who chose to use it.

(Jennifer - I got your message 100% - I am Australian - we are trained in English and US humor

)

 

[starfire]

Hi Garry,

Thanks for your clarification. This is the problem about reading threads in the forum, you miss the human subtext provided by facial expressions, and words on the screen sometimes sound more severe than it should be.

To tell the truth, I am curious about the ideal-scope, and I am open to the idea of trying this scope. I am just concerned that consumers who use it may have unnecessarily high expectations of the retailers they visit.

Not to say that it is not important to stock good diamonds, but the sheer difficulty of making sure ALL staff are equally knowledgeable about diamonds to the degree that people here are talking about.

While I understand the satisfaction of buying diamonds that meet the numbers, I feel that some people here are a little obsessed about it. I am sure that you know that beauty is subjective and some beautiful diamonds happen to have lousy numbers.

I still feel that numbers should play a more secondary role to what the eyes see, to a certain degree.

In my stores, actually we hardly sell H&As. In fact, we place a H&A next to a Gabrielle diamond in our stores, and we have never sold a H&A up till now. And the funny thing is, we have never asked our customers to compare the diamonds with anything other than their eyes. The difference is so immediately apparent, that eveyone always picks the Gabrielle when asked to compare for scintillation and dispersion.

But, again, I am open to try your scope at least to see how it works. And I would not feel offended if someone whipped it out at our stores. In fact, we welcome it!

Best regards,
Stephen Tan
Charlotte Atelier

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On 10/18/2004 6:46:09 AM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:

You are right that the trade is slow to accept things like the Ideal-scope - but it took almost 10 years for H&A's to migrate from Japan to USA Stephan.

I do deliberately tease Dinasuar David, and it is naughty of me, but we have so few dinasuars willing to come out here and play in the open. (Beside it gives my lovely wife some respite

)

Do you or have you used the Ideal-Scope Stephan?
Have you ever selected 10 diamonds from a parcel and graded them with it, put them in a black tray in that oredr and then examined them in a few different lightings?

And even if you do not like the tool - I am sure you would never be rude to anyone who chose to use it.

(Jennifer - I got your message 100% - I am Australian - we are trained in English and US humor

) ----------------

 

[Nicrez]

CTang, sad to say, but I never even used the IdealScope, and I STILL got those irritated salespeople who didn't want my business...

NY's Diamond District IS NOT downstairs, but in the higher floors of those buildings, and even the inconspicuous buildings around the area...Downstairs are the sharks who pay to have store fronts to attract poor saps who think that diamonds are sparkly and if it is labeled "ideal" it should cost 2-3 times more, and is STILL cheap, because it's not Tiffany's or Cartier...

I had some genius sales person TELL ME that a Radiant is only sold by Tiffany's, and they couldn't help me, so go to Tiffany's. When I DID take out my AGA cut charts and SHOW some sales people that I wanted a stone with a efficient cut, some people said that looked like crap. But two vendors on the 47th street level actually praised my efforts, and were so impressed by my depth of understanding. They admitted they never heard of these things, and asked me questions.

It is absolutely fair to say that some people on PriceScope will have a much greater understanding of cut than about 70% of the sales people (if not MORE) that sell on the bottom floor. But don't kid yourseelf, the little hidden distributors and wholesalers in those top floors are up there, selling great stones, you just need access to that, and sadly, sometimes it's only through the idiots on the lower levels. It's a very private and protective field on 47th, and you have to first honestly, act stupid, so they can start showing you SOMETHING, then start pairing it down by getting specific.

i noticed that when I walked in all knowledgeable, they either refused to even LOOK, or they automatically discounted me as a tough sale, and didn't bother... So I played into the whole, "I am looking for a sparkly diamond...?" Then as they asked size and shape, I showed some savvy, and when they got down to prices and choosing a stone, they got scared that I went from meek lamb to voracious consumer... Sad to say, but you have to act a bit useless to begin with, because the whole "diamond dance" needs two players and you can't find a stone if you're on the street.

Don't throw your knowledge around. Listen to them, even if they tell you an ideal cut has a HUGE table and a huge culet. Just listen, and say, "That's a lovely stone, but I think I like this type better....I have seen them, and they suit my taste more... Do you have any?"

Considering most people within the Diamond District have positions because of a family business, other fields have more formal training, People on the sales end, or manufacturing end of the diamond trade often have learned their trade from generations in the business... Sadly, on 47th there is not as great a demand for a GIA educated salesperson, because most shoppers are unsuspecting tourists who think this is the place to 'get a deal"... and they just get fleeced.

so it's an industry that is rooted in tradition and by nature is a family trade with generally little formal education compared to MOST industries, you need to be respectful of what they believe, even if it's not what you believe (oh yeah, and just ignore the salesbabble!)

Good luck and god help you!

 

[diamondlil]

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On 10/16/2004 11:44:20 PM Garry H (Cut Nut) wrote:




We still hear stories about mall stroe staff who do not know what a H&A's viewer is.
----------------

And I've been asked over and over if "that thing" (my ideal-scope) is a H&A viewer.

DiamondLil

 

[diamondlil]

----------------
On 10/17/2004 9:52:12 AM Jennifer5973 wrote:





Good grief--I've gone to my jewelers with my loupe, a magnifying glass and made him hold a stone up against a light bulb while I photographed it with my digital camera so I could 'analyze' the pics on my computer...and he just stands there and smiles!
----------------

LOL! As it should be, Jen.