Jeweler or Internet?

[bizgk]

Does anyone have advice on the best way to go about buying a loose diamond? I know a jeweler who is a friend of my girlfriend''s family (who they trust very much), but the prices he quotes are a bit more than the prices I find on Internet sites such as diamonds.com. For example, the price he quoted me for a 1.3c ring could buy a 1.5c ring with the same "qualities" on these Web sites. Are there other variables that are not obvoius from the 4 C''s that need to be taken into consideration?

Also, does anyone have a book they recommend regarding this topic that maybe talks about not only buying a diamond (for example, making sure it is the one covered by a GIA certificate and not a switched diamond -- absent a special marking, I still don''t understand why a jeweler can''t use copies of the same certificate with dozens of different diamonds), insurance for rings/diamonds, and other relevant topics?

Thanks.

 

[hoorray]

There are lots of good internet vendors who have great pricing and comparable or better quality goods. The C that is often ignored it the Cut quality. The cut quality makes by far the biggest difference in the overall sparkle of the diamond.

There are some very good tutorials on the web. Start with the one here and then check out www.goodoldgold.com and www.niceice. Both have good tutorials and good quality stones. THere are also some good books, but I don't know which ones -- maybe someone else will offer some suggestions.

Process wise, there are simple ways to protect yourself. Find an independent appraiser -- either locally so that you can view the stone before paying for it, or use one of the top notch ones that participate here. They can verify that the stone matches the cert (using measurements and inclusion plots they become very unique) as well as help you understand what you are buying and if it meets your criteria, is a good price, etc.

I had my stone sent to a local appraiser before we paid for it. My husband and I went in for the appraisal appointment and got his opinion as well as verification that it was what we thought we were buying. Once satisfied, we wired the $$ to the vendor and the appraiser released the stone to us to have set by a jeweler he recommended. It was simple and safe, and a great deal.

Come back here to ask questions or get opinions on what you are finding, and read though some of the back posts to get a feel for who people are dealing with and how they are going about it.

 

[bizgk]

Thanks for the information. I have some quick questions about what you wrote. When you suggest using an independent appraiser before you buy, does that mean the jewelry store will send the appraiser the diamond and let him/her look at it and discuss the findings with you before you pay the person selling the diamond? This might be reaching new levels of paranoia, but how do you know the jewelry store owner doesn't offer incentives to the appraiser to give a favorable opinion?

Also, let's say you buy the ring off the Internet (with a 30 day money back guarantee). Then I suppose you can take it to an appraiser yourself and have it examined. Do you see any problems with that? Also, unless a place is doing the appraisal in front of your eyes, how do you know theta the diamond you bring into a store is the one you leave with unless there is a marking or something you can use to identify it? I read somewhere that you can have a diamond etched with a marking to always be able to identify it. Is this a bad idea?

Thanks again. I will do to those sites you recommended and read up.

 

[Superidealist]

By virtue of geography, I believe you are in a much better position than most people looking for a diamond. The problem for you is not finding a jeweler who can get quality diamonds, but finding one you trust. It sounds like you may already have this in your girlfriend's family friend. It may be a mistake to forgo the agdvantages of a local jeweler to save a bit more on price. That said, some of the Pricescope vendors are also located in your area. You might consider them as well.

 

[denverappraiser]

----------------
On 8/22/2004 11:10:38 AM bizgk wrote:


Also, does anyone have a book they recommend regarding this topic that maybe talks about not only buying a diamond (for example, making sure it is the one covered by a GIA certificate and not a switched diamond -- absent a special marking, I still don't understand why a jeweler can't use copies of the same certificate with dozens of different diamonds), insurance for rings/diamonds, and other relevant topics?

Thanks. ----------------

The shopping process is well covered above. I'll try to address the second half.

The primary reason that GIA and other labs include the little diagram on their reports is to make it possible to recognize a particular stone. It takes a bit of practice but you can learn to spot characteristics that are unique to your individual stone. There are independent appraisers in most markets that can help you with this and any of the various books and tutorials on diamond grading can help you learn how to do this yourself.

The reports are pretty distinctive and they have several anti-counterfeiting measures built into them. Deliberately falsifying one of these would be criminal fraud on the part of the jeweler and would upset both the police and the issuing lab. There is always some possiblity that they will make an error and shuffle the deck but it'se pretty unusual for them to give a customer a report that doesn't match the stone. Weeding out such errors is part of the reason to get an appraisal done by someone other than the selling jeweler after you've taken posession of the stone. It protects both you and the jeweler.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[yowahking]

If the appraiser has enough credentials, he or she will not play games. Most appraisers do not and can not buy or sell. They have spent too much time working on their titles to be black marked by the industry and most everyone knows everyone or only one step from everyone. There is still much to debate on the pros and cons of internet vs jeweler. I am stuck in the middle somewhere. I help jewelers everyday learn how to compete with the internet, and help cutomers who went to the wrong internet site. I also encourage jewelers to develop an internet site (if they are good jewelers only) to attract the ever increasing customer base there. One of the downsides to internet is only seeing one stone at a time (usually done this way). One of the upsides is to view thousands of possible choices before sending one. One of the downsides to jewelers is they often need or want more profit due to overhead or greed. Upside is you can often look at 6 stones side by side to compare one to the other. You can also see what they look like in a setting. One of the downside of internet sites is that you can not see who you are dealing with, some people like to look into someones eyes and judge whether to do business with them. One of the downsides of jewelers is they are often a little too pushy because most pay commission to sales staff, and most don't want you to walk out the door without spending money. As Neil from Denver says, clear as mud. There are many internet sites and jewelers who do not own the diamonds you are looking at, therefore there is not much room for play. Even those who own them often don't play with price. The ones that play too much with price usually started too high in the first place. Competition is a good thing. Question is how much time to you devote to your search, how many stones do you want to look at? If you use a good appraiser (most are not good) pay him for his time whether you buy the stone or not. Most people assume that they should look at a stone for free because the jeweler or internet said he was the one to use. Most will state cost anyway, but I see so many people surprised that they should have to pay for 1/2 hour of an experts time.

 

[pearcrazy]

Yowahking,

Just a suggestion from a lowly consumer. Your posts are too long winded and I find myself skipping over them because of such. It may be helpful if you divide your long posts into paragraphs and get to the point without sounding too preachy. My .02 since you've decided to jump right in and offer your expertise.

 

[Brian Knox]

Jeweler or Internet?

I think the real future of jewelry retailing will be the obvious (to me) hybrid of Bricks & Clicks.

A good shopper can find good deals anywhere, including B&M's.

Keep an open mind, decide what is important for you.

There are so many different "shopping personalities".

You are the only one that knows your concerns and comfort levels with all the variables involved.

 

[denverappraiser]

bizgk,

I didn't answer your questions in the second post. These are important concerns. Obviously, I have a vested interest since I make a living as an independent appraiser.

The easiest way to avoid the conflict of interest issue you bring up is to choose the appraiser yourself, instead of allowing the jeweler choose one for. In most markets there are quite a few to choose from. This sometimes gets sticky but it shouldn’t be all that difficult. The problem is that many people who sell their services as appraisers are, in practice, jewelry salespeople. Stores are justifiably concerned that if you take the stone to their competition for an appraisal, you will be given bad advice and that you will withdraw your purchase in order to buy from this new store. This isn’t an appraisal it’s an advertisement. It’s a legitimate issue and it’s doing you no favors either because you still don’t know what you’re getting and whether you’re paying a reasonable price. This is the reason you want an appraiser that doesn’t buy or sell jewelry – ie. Independent. For the most part, a good jeweler wants the same sorts of things from an appraiser that you want, an unbiased reporting of the facts and it applies whether your purchase is made at a local store or through an out-of-town dealer.

For new sale appraisals (meaning appraisals done on a newly purchased items where the customer is deciding whether to keep the stone or return it) most customers come in with the same basic series of questions:

1) Is this a diamond?
2) What are it’s important quality characteristics?
3) Is it the diamond described on these reports (sarins, certs, etc.)?
4) In your opinion, is the information on the reports accurate?
5) Is there other important information that I should be considering beyond what I was told?
6) Did I pay an appropriate price?
7) I would like a document that I can present to my insurance company to allow me to get a policy or I want a document that I can present to the jeweler that will allow me to get my money back depending on the answers to the previous questions.

The process can take anywhere from about 30 minutes to a couple of hours depending on the complexity of your purchase. Other kinds of appraisals, like estates and charitable contributions, have a different set of questions but you get the idea. If you only have one or two items to examine, an analysis of this sort is usually done while you wait and while you watch. It’s usually necessary to schedule an appointment in advance but most appraisers shouldn’t have difficulty fitting it within your return period if you make the appointment soon after agreeing to buy the stone. Contact your appraiser so that you can work out any scheduling issues. You can find an appraiser by searching here on pricescope, by contacting the various appraisal societies, through the Better Business Bureau and many other approaches.

Girdle etching is an issue that disserves it’s own discussion. In any case you don’t want to do this to a stone until after you’ve agreed to keep it. Many will already have something like the certificate number written on it.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[yowahking]

Pearcrazy, sorry for the long wind, product of two teacher parents. I am this long winded in person also. Neil, as usual, I agree with you on most everything. Not the BBB part. In this city there is a jeweler who has bankrupted and moved a few times, convicted child molester, many times sold filled stones without disclosing, appraises and grades his things high, others low. And the BBB gives him super marks. Go figure.

 

[denverappraiser]

BBB is an interesting problem.

They are fundamentally a demerit system where everyone starts out with a clean record and they get marks against them as they commit offenses. This means that a blank record could indicate a seller that’s only been in business for a week or someone who has been around since they invented dirt but doesn’t actually have very many customers. I really like their mission and but I’m not sure what to suggest about the value of their data.

They offer memberships that may be something of a clue. To be a member it’s necessary to have a reasonably clean record (see above), pay them a bunch of money, and pass a rudimentary credit check. At the very least, this indicates a merchant who is supporting their cause and who is doing enough business so feel like they can spring for the fee and who isn’t in the habit of screwing people. That’s not much of an endorsement but it’s better than nothing.

What do you guys think of the BBB? Is there anyone else who offers a better service?

Yowahking. Add some white space to your posts. It’ll help to make them easier to read.

Neil Beaty, GG ISA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

The BBB is Joke in a lot of ways but there isnt a whole lot better out there.
If a company has bad marks you can be assured they are pretty bad because they give them a million and one chances before they give one.