We''re ALL winners!!

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 6/29/2010 4:57:54 AM
Author: yssie

Date: 6/29/2010 1:43:22 AM
Author: dreamer_d
LOL! Yssies, spoken like a true overachiever!

I think I know which of my students you were in university.

Haha aren''t you a sweet one

And you would have been my favourite!

 

[yssie]

Date: 6/30/2010 1:16:21 AM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 6/29/2010 4:57:54 AM
Author: yssie

Date: 6/29/2010 1:43:22 AM
Author: dreamer_d
LOL! Yssies, spoken like a true overachiever!

I think I know which of my students you were in university.

Haha aren't you a sweet one

And you would have been my favourite!

 

[yssie]

The responses to this thread have been - enlightening.


The correlations between entitlement in work, play, and parent involvement are certainly interesting to consider..

 

[Haven]

Date: 6/29/2010 4:36:48 PM
Author: ForteKitty

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?

These kids expect to get good grades w/o earning them these days. (my cousins do, at least.) I believe in straight scores, no curves. if you make it, you get the A, otherwise, you get whatever you earned. And this is coming from a non-high achiever.

I went to a pretty competitive HS. Back in 1997, our valedictorian''s GPA was 4.5. She started taking all AP classes as soon as it was possible, starting in sophomore year. The salutatorian''s GPA was 4.45. Think the third in class was a 4.4. I had a 3.5 GPA and i was on the bottom half of the class!! yea... embarrassing!!

I agree that students who earn an A should receive an A. The only way I ever saw curves being used was when the highest grade was below an A, so the curve actually raised everyone''s grade.

I went to a similar HS, ForteKitty. There were over 800 students in my graduating class, and they posted our class rank in the main hallway twice a year. I graduated high school with a 3.5 and was in the bottom half of the class, as well. If I hadn''t scored so well on the ACT I wouldn''t have gotten into my college! It''s insane.

 

[ts44]

I''m with Yssie - I attended a grade school that starting in third grade (the first grade you did not just get an "S" for satisfactory or a "U" for unsatisfactory on your card) at the end of the semester the report cards were handed out in front of the whole class and Sister Doloretta had a list of all the students who received A''s and the subject they got them in, and would call up by name these students to receive a certificate of achievement for getting an A in that subject. The other students received nothing. I freaking loved it. I wanted to wallpaper my room in certificates of achievement. Even if I didn''t get one for a particular subject, I knew why and would work harder next semester to get one. I encourage realistic expectations for kids, not everything is gonna be a winners ribbon for all. You want it, go get it!

 

[ksinger]

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
The majority of the world''s cultures are collectivistic rather than individualistic, meaning that teamwork is valued over being first place. Yes it is true that Americans value personal achievement, but as far as being a productive worker, teaching teamwork and group effort is much more applicable in today''s work force.

Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?

In terms of a race with a hundred people... the goal of this race is ultimately to get 7 year olds moving, to encourage a joy for running and physical fitness. I don''t know about you, but when I was growing up, I already knew who the fastest boy and the fastest girl in the class were. They won first place every year, and that was fine by me. In a race of a hundred, I would know without a doubt that I am not going to win first place. oh well! Any smart kid knows his chances of winning, so if the ultimate goal is to encourage all 100 kids to challenge THEMSELVES and to do their best and enjoy the race, then I can see where a ribbon for everyone who tried is in line with those goals, rather than one ribbon for first place.

Can everyone win a gold medal in the olympics? of course not. But determining the BEST is not the point of 7 year old fun runs or English class. I am VERY competitive. I have to put my ''happy face'' on when I play games, because while it may be just for fun on the outside, you better believe I am psychotic about winning on the inside. So when I speak against competition in the classroom, it''s not because I care about self-esteem or hurting anyone''s feelings. It''s because I care about kids and allowing as many of them as possible to meet my high expectations and to achieve success. If I set up my class so that only one child is allowed to win or only 5 can earn an A, then I am losing 20 other children who know that an A is not in their grasp. The key is high expectations for all, not giving out grades or ribbons for self-esteem.

Tell me you aren''t serious. Have you ever talked to anyone from India or China and quizzed them about their schooling and how insanely fierce the competition is to WIN? You really should if you haven''t. I know in China, according to one Chinese guy in my office, with whom I spoke at length, they don''t waste teaching time and resources on underachievers and they are directed into manual labor training. I''m sure the collective mindset is prized in those jobs. And let''s not even get into the endless thrash about exactly WHAT a "good education" is supposed to create, a perennial discussion that crops up in our house often, (and ended up recently with my hubs and a home-ec teacher in a very polite yet roaring fight. Even teachers don''t agree on that issue). Workers? I guess the industrial model is still in vogue?

This is going to be harsh, but I think it has some merit, and pretty much demonstrates 2 conflicting mindsets, or at least 1 that doesn''t easily change into the other when necessary, as we see when the no-failure-ever mentality makes it all the way to highschool...

The hubs states flatly (and he rarely states things flatly god knows) that this is a direct outgrowth of the educational system - especially at the elementary level - being dominated by females. I don''t know that I agree entirely, but he has a point. There have certainly been enough studies of how boys organize their play (rules-based and unyielding) to how girls play (the rules are fluid and change) to support some of that assertion. And from the fact that most of the kids DO keep score (even when the score fluctuates), you have to start believing that ranking is something inborn in humans. No amount of warm-fuzzies are going to change the fact that some rise to the top and others do not. In fact, for most, the prospect of BEING ON TOP, is the driving force behind their success. It''s just how we''re wired. And if the goal is to get 7 year olds to move, then don''t make it a "race". Think of something else that doesn''t imply competition, because the minute you do that, you will have winners and....losers.

He also rolls eyes at a common thing now around here - the 8th grade "graduation", complete with cap and gown. I kid you not. A symptom of the elevation of complete non-events to stupid levels. It''s NOT an achievement worthy of note, but for some reason, it has become this big thing. Bizarre. And he insists, around here anyway, that the push for no one to "fail" ala the bajillion valedictorians yearly that have become the norm, came from parents first (all up in arms about little Johnny not being considered for XYX university due to not being valedictorian) and NOT the admin. Of course, admins just pretty much cave to the pressure from the outside. Again, not sure I totally agree given some of the whack ideas of "educators", but he IS on the inside here. He is an 11th grade history teacher on the rubber-meets-road end of the previous 10 years of education (and parenting) a child received, and trust me, success and failure is on his mind daily.

For myself, I graduated in a time when there was ONE valedictorian, and the rest of us just craved to be even close. I graduated 15th in a class of over 600, and was just hundredths away from the top, but it might as well have been from here to the moon. There was only ONE. Somehow my self-esteem was not crushed by my many not-winnings over the course of my childhood, and learning how to deal with it was a part of how I was not brittle when I saw that the big mean world doesn''t give brownie points or a flip how hard you "tried".

Oh, and for anyone interested, here is the link to the article about the oodles of valedictorians.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/education/27valedictorians.html?scp=1&sq=how%20many%20graduates%20can%20be%20no.%201&st=cse

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Date: 6/30/2010 8:27:17 PM
Author: ksinger

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM

Author: Guilty Pleasure

The majority of the world''s cultures are collectivistic rather than individualistic, meaning that teamwork is valued over being first place. Yes it is true that Americans value personal achievement, but as far as being a productive worker, teaching teamwork and group effort is much more applicable in today''s work force.


Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?



In terms of a race with a hundred people... the goal of this race is ultimately to get 7 year olds moving, to encourage a joy for running and physical fitness. I don''t know about you, but when I was growing up, I already knew who the fastest boy and the fastest girl in the class were. They won first place every year, and that was fine by me. In a race of a hundred, I would know without a doubt that I am not going to win first place. oh well! Any smart kid knows his chances of winning, so if the ultimate goal is to encourage all 100 kids to challenge THEMSELVES and to do their best and enjoy the race, then I can see where a ribbon for everyone who tried is in line with those goals, rather than one ribbon for first place.


Can everyone win a gold medal in the olympics? of course not. But determining the BEST is not the point of 7 year old fun runs or English class. I am VERY competitive. I have to put my ''happy face'' on when I play games, because while it may be just for fun on the outside, you better believe I am psychotic about winning on the inside. So when I speak against competition in the classroom, it''s not because I care about self-esteem or hurting anyone''s feelings. It''s because I care about kids and allowing as many of them as possible to meet my high expectations and to achieve success. If I set up my class so that only one child is allowed to win or only 5 can earn an A, then I am losing 20 other children who know that an A is not in their grasp. The key is high expectations for all, not giving out grades or ribbons for self-esteem.

Tell me you aren''t serious. Have you ever talked to anyone from India or China and quizzed them about their schooling and how insanely fierce the competition is to WIN? You really should if you haven''t. I know in China, according to one Chinese guy in my office, with whom I spoke at length, they don''t waste teaching time and resources on underachievers and they are directed into manual labor training. I''m sure the collective mindset is prized in those jobs. And let''s not even get into the endless thrash about exactly WHAT a ''good education'' is supposed to create, a perennial discussion that crops up in our house often, (and ended up recently with my hubs and a home-ec teacher in a very polite yet roaring fight. Even teachers don''t agree on that issue). Workers? I guess the industrial model is still in vogue?

This is going to be harsh, but I think it has some merit, and pretty much demonstrates 2 conflicting mindsets, or at least 1 that doesn''t easily change into the other when necessary, as we see when the no-failure-ever mentality makes it all the way to highschool...

The hubs states flatly (and he rarely states things flatly god knows) that this is a direct outgrowth of the educational system - especially at the elementary level - being dominated by females. I don''t know that I agree entirely, but he has a point. There have certainly been enough studies of how boys organize their play (rules-based and unyielding) to how girls play (the rules are fluid and change) to support some of that assertion. And from the fact that most of the kids DO keep score (even when the score fluctuates), you have to start believing that ranking is something inborn in humans. No amount of warm-fuzzies are going to change the fact that some rise to the top and others do not. In fact, for most, the prospect of BEING ON TOP, is the driving force behind their success. It''s just how we''re wired. And if the goal is to get 7 year olds to move, then don''t make it a ''race''. Think of something else that doesn''t imply competition, because the minute you do that, you will have winners and....losers.

He also rolls eyes at a common thing now around here - the 8th grade ''graduation'', complete with cap and gown. I kid you not. A symptom of the elevation of complete non-events to stupid levels. It''s NOT an achievement worthy of note, but for some reason, it has become this big thing. Bizarre. And he insists, around here anyway, that the push for no one to ''fail'' ala the bajillion valedictorians yearly that have become the norm, came from parents first (all up in arms about little Johnny not being considered for XYX university due to not being valedictorian) and NOT the admin. Of course, admins just pretty much cave to the pressure from the outside. Again, not sure I totally agree given some of the whack ideas of ''educators'', but he IS on the inside here. He is an 11th grade history teacher on the rubber-meets-road end of the previous 10 years of education (and parenting) a child received, and trust me, success and failure is on his mind daily.

For myself, I graduated in a time when there was ONE valedictorian, and the rest of us just craved to be even close. I graduated 15th in a class of over 600, and was just hundredths away from the top, but it might as well have been from here to the moon. There was only ONE. Somehow my self-esteem was not crushed by my many not-winnings over the course of my childhood, and learning how to deal with it was a part of how I was not brittle when I saw that the big mean world doesn''t give brownie points or a flip how hard you ''tried''.

Oh, and for anyone interested, here is the link to the article about the oodles of valedictorians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/education/27valedictorians.html?scp=1&sq=how%20many%20graduates%20can%20be%20no.%201&st=cse

It is true that America is the only nation (I know of) that educates everyone. I didn''t say that the majority of the world''s cultures let everyone go to college. I said they are collectivistic, meaning that people view themselves as part of a unit, a work group, a family above being an individual. Your example of one man from China''s experience actually supports the widely held belief that Asian cultures tend to be collectivistic; the system decides what is best for the whole, and "lesser" people are directed to labor manual training. I do not equate collectivistic with self-esteem boosting and the "everybody''s equal" mentality. This type of culture does not imply an absence of hard work or striving to do one''s best. Rather, it is the idea that relationships to other people and the success of the group is more important that the feelings or accomplishments of an individual.

So let me be clear - I am competitive by nature. I think eighth grade graduations and more than one valedictorian (except in the case of an absolute tie) is RIDICULOUS! I am a high school teacher, and have not done research on elementary education, so I can''t speak to your husband''s theory on female elementary ed. You highlighted my comment on wishing everyone could get an A, but I''m not sure what your response to that was. When I taught chemistry and biology, an A was a rare thing. When I say that I wish all my students could get an A, I did not mean that I would like to give them all A''s because they are such wonderful little individuals and I want to give them a false sense of accomplishment. First, children see right through that and giving an A for no good reason would not help the self-esteem anyway. I meant that I wish they were all motivated enough, or bright enough, or I was somehow effective enough to get every kid in my classroom achieving at a high level. I think your husband would feel the same way.

 

[MustangGal]

The kids raised in this mind set are starting to enter the work force. I''ve attended several HR sessions in how to deal with them

. They want to be petted, hand fed and told they''re doing a good job all the time. It frustrates the hell out of the boomer generation that just wants to work hard and go home. (I''m 30, so kinda stuck in between)

I understand at a young age children need to play and experience the rules and team work involved in sports, but 4th grade seems old enough for there to be winners and "not winners".

 

[choro72]

One of my teaching hurdles are the hard working students. They work on their homework for hours upon hours. They struggle and genuinely try their best, but the material just don''t click. They don''t perform well, and their conclusion is that the teachers and the TAs are bad, the questions were bad, or they were graded unfairly. They think that after all, if they have put that much effort, they should learn enough to get As.

I can''t stand people with sense of entitlement. I know they are really trying, but sorry, I''m not giving them full credit for that. Some people just aren''t meant for certain materials, and that''s just fact. When I took Introduction to Psychology, I cried, lost sleep, and wasted so much time studying and all I got was a C+. I never blamed the professors; I''m just not meant for it.

And I agree with MustangGal. At 4th grade they are old enough to know what competition mean.

 

[swingirl]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:31:59 PM
Author: choro72
And I agree with MustangGal. At 4th grade they are old enough to know what competition mean.

And you can bet these kids know exactly who comes in first place, who is smarter, who is the winner, etc. I certainly knew in 1st grade where everyone stood with their achievements. It''s human nature to assess yourself and others.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:31:59 PM
Author: choro72
One of my teaching hurdles are the hard working students. They work on their homework for hours upon hours. They struggle and genuinely try their best, but the material just don''t click. They don''t perform well, and their conclusion is that the teachers and the TAs are bad, the questions were bad, or they were graded unfairly. They think that after all, if they have put that much effort, they should learn enough to get As.

I can''t stand people with sense of entitlement. I know they are really trying, but sorry, I''m not giving them full credit for that. Some people just aren''t meant for certain materials, and that''s just fact. When I took Introduction to Psychology, I cried, lost sleep, and wasted so much time studying and all I got was a C+. I never blamed the professors; I''m just not meant for it.

And I agree with MustangGal. At 4th grade they are old enough to know what competition mean.

And it''s Mommy and Daddy that have taught them that idea - that effort is enough for the best rewards, by thrashing and fluttering for every non-event and mediocrity of their little lives. The same parents who go storming into my friend''s brother''s personnel office in a large oil company, to protest when their 26 year old college educated engineer son or daughter just got reprimanded or fired for sub-par work. Needless to say, Jr. is not the only one who gets a bitter lesson that day. No. I''m not making that up. It happens fairly often.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 7/1/2010 1:18:15 PM
Author: Guilty Pleasure



It is true that America is the only nation (I know of) that educates everyone. I didn''t say that the majority of the world''s cultures let everyone go to college. I said they are collectivistic, meaning that people view themselves as part of a unit, a work group, a family above being an individual. Your example of one man from China''s experience actually supports the widely held belief that Asian cultures tend to be collectivistic; the system decides what is best for the whole, and ''lesser'' people are directed to labor manual training. I do not equate collectivistic with self-esteem boosting and the ''everybody''s equal'' mentality. This type of culture does not imply an absence of hard work or striving to do one''s best. Rather, it is the idea that relationships to other people and the success of the group is more important that the feelings or accomplishments of an individual.

So let me be clear - I am competitive by nature. I think eighth grade graduations and more than one valedictorian (except in the case of an absolute tie) is RIDICULOUS! I am a high school teacher, and have not done research on elementary education, so I can''t speak to your husband''s theory on female elementary ed. You highlighted my comment on wishing everyone could get an A, but I''m not sure what your response to that was. When I taught chemistry and biology, an A was a rare thing. When I say that I wish all my students could get an A, I did not mean that I would like to give them all A''s because they are such wonderful little individuals and I want to give them a false sense of accomplishment. First, children see right through that and giving an A for no good reason would not help the self-esteem anyway. I meant that I wish they were all motivated enough, or bright enough, or I was somehow effective enough to get every kid in my classroom achieving at a high level. I think your husband would feel the same way.

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like we agree on at least part of our views of collectivistic cultures, although I suspect that that idealistic view of collectivist cultures caring about the whole, is mostly a sop for the masses. The people at the top of that pyramid are not playing by those rules, and make the rules to ensure their positions, along with the so-called "common good".

I''m not sure what it has to do with schooling here though. The myth we tell ourselves here in the US nowadays, that the Aisan cultures seem much more honest about, is that every child is or should be college bound, and if they aren''t, then we are failing somehow. We just try much longer than they do, but at the end of the day, a lot of kids still don''t go, much like other places. Our failing is not being unable to get every child to college, but not acknowledging that not every child WILL go, and as a society, making provision for that. There is no track other than a college track these days, not to mention that all the jobs that didn''t require any or much higher ed and yet payed at least a living wage, are gone offshore, never to return. THERE''S the failure.

So in the end, it kind of comes down to that question that no one can ever answer - WHAT is it that we are trying to produce when we say we want educated people. Are teachers supposed to be teaching some form of Jack Handy social engineering, or are teachers supposed to be teaching content - are we supposed to be creating selfless team members, or critical thinkers? And in a world of limited resources - both in herculean human effort and in money - how much of one should be given up for the other?

I think the DH''s theory comes from research he''s read, plus 5 years teaching middleschool, which is the age when the touchy-feely everybody-wins mentality should be starting to give way to a more content-centered modality. There was a genuine clash of philosophies and motivations in the middleschool teachers. He comes from a highschool mindset - degree in his TOPIC, content-driven over say, the general education degree and "I am a teacher because I love children" mindset. (That''s not a bad thing, but it doesn''t help all that much when teaching depth of content is the goal, like it is in highschool) He noted that since the elementary is dominated by women, when they move into the middleschools - which happens more often than highschool teachers moving there, they tend to bring the "mother" child-centered mentality to teaching there. In a nutshell, don''t hurt their feelings, change the criteria instead. Oh, and on the topic of ''celebrations'' (his eyes roll up a bunch when relating this) He also said that there are kindergarten graduations, 5th grade graduations...you get the drift. And those are happening nationally apparently, they''re not just a phenomenon here.

 

[ksinger]

And apparently, the downward trend of what is required of students versus what they receive gradewise, has crept into the top schools. The Ivies may one day be nothing more than really expensive schools, since they seem intent on cannibalizing their own cache. Talk about short-term thinking. Just part and parcel of that same mindset: the criteria is fluid.

In Law Schools, Grades Go Up Like That

One day next month every student at Loyola Law School Los Angeles will awake to a higher grade point average.

But it’s not because they are all working harder.

The school is retroactively inflating its grades, tacking on 0.333 to every grade recorded in the last few years. The goal is to make its students look more attractive in a competitive job market.

In the last two years, at least 10 law schools have deliberately changed their grading systems to make them more lenient. These include law schools like New York University and Georgetown, as well as Golden Gate University and Tulane University, which just announced the change this month. Some recruiters at law firms keep track of these changes and consider them when interviewing, and some do not.

Law schools seem to view higher grades as one way to rescue their students from the tough economic climate — and perhaps more to the point, to protect their own reputations and rankings. Once able to practically guarantee gainful employment to thousands of students every year, the schools are now fielding complaints from more and more unemployed graduates, frequently drowning in student debt.

....the rest of the article at the link above...

 

[Haven]

This thread has been so interesting.

Ksinger, you asked "WHAT is it that we are trying to produce when we say we want educated people. Are teachers supposed to be teaching some form of Jack Handy social engineering, or are teachers supposed to be teaching content - are we supposed to be creating selfless team members, or critical thinkers?" Different educators will give you different answers, of course, but in my classroom the focus is on critical thinking. Content is of no use if students do not have the critical thinking skills to actually interact with that content, to draw conclusions and apply what they learned about that content to new problems or situations.

I also think you are spot on re: the myth we tell ourselves that every child is or should be college bound.

The saddest part of this whole problem is that it really, truly has a negative impact on our children that lasts throughout their entire adult lives. We fail to teach them the skills they really need to develop in order to succeed in the world. We give them a mortarboard and a scroll, and figure that they will be somebody else's problem now that they've graduated.

My entire career exists because of this sad state of affairs. Years ago, we didn't need teams of reading specialists at the college level or high school levels because most kids were able to read close enough to grade level that there was no need for intervention. (Schools had maybe one or two specialists.) Now, community colleges run upwards of 60 English classes per school year that serve students who are not yet prepared to succeed in a freshman English class. High schools have entire reading labs that serve hundreds of students who are unable to read at grade level, and who need small group or individual interventions just to keep up with their school work. Why are these students in college? Why are they in high school? Why do we just pass them along even though they don't truly have the skills they *should* have in order to move into the next grade level? There are so many reasons--pressure from parents, effort-based grading, lack of funding to re-educate, because they're such nice kids. Who knows?

All I know is that I began my teaching career at the college level. In department meetings we used to say "What are these high schools teaching that so many kids are coming here unprepared?" Then I moved to the high school level. In department meetings we used to say "What are these middle schools teaching that so many kids are coming here unprepared?" Now I teach teachers who are earning degrees to become reading specialists, and at every level they always say "We have no idea what they're teaching the kids in ___ grade, because they come to us unprepared." However, these kids keep on moving through the system. Eventually, they become employees and they realize that they don't have the basic skills they need to hack it in the job. They are angry, and they've been cheated by the educational system.

I imagine every educator has a lot of theories about how to fix this problem. In my mind, we need to reevaluate the way we assess student success. If the assessment isn't an authentic representation of the skills we set out to develop, then it needs to go. I wouldn't teach a "How to Ride a Bicycle" class and base your final grade on your ability to answer multiple choice questions about the name and function each and every part of a bicycle. That assessment might be useful in my "How to Fix a Bicycle" class, but not in my "How to Ride a Bicycle" class. And I certainly won't give you points for just showing up and doing your homework. If you can't ride a bicycle by the end of the term, you haven't developed the skill and you need to repeat the course. Period.

 

[luckystar112]

"Graduations" have gotten so ridiculous. I read recently that Britney Spears just attended her boys'' graduation from preschool, and the school I sub at holds graduations for kindergarteners, fifth grade, AND eighth grade. The days of the pizza party on the last day of school are coming to an end...it''s really ridiculous. I actually had an 8th grade graduation back in 1996, so it''s not new. 8th grade doesn''t bother me as much as the others for some reason...probably because where I lived 8th graders were considered the "seniors" of all the younger grades and moving on to high school felt like a huge transition. But for the most part I really don''t get it. You''d think with all of the "we''re all winners" mentality they would refrain from making a big deal about passing...what about the kids who are held back? Are they being held back?

 

[steph72276]

I'm not sure where some people saw 4th grade...she said he's 7 years old, so that would be about 1st grade right? Anyway, with the obesity rates in children climbing the way they are, I just applaud the school for making an attempt to get the children interested in running at all. SO much has gone into pushing teachers to just get high test scores out of the children, basics like physical education have somewhat gone out the window, at least in some school districts. I think it's important for kids to think physical activity is FUN and want to get into sports. Not every.single.thing has to be a competition at 7 years old, they will have plenty of time for that. I would much rather my child learn to love sports than feel the pressure of competing at such a young age. The pressure is what makes some kids give up on sports altogether way too early and therefore never learn to love physical exercise.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

Date: 7/2/2010 6:42:41 AM
Author: ksinger

Date: 7/1/2010 1:18:15 PM

Author: Guilty Pleasure




It is true that America is the only nation (I know of) that educates everyone. I didn''t say that the majority of the world''s cultures let everyone go to college. I said they are collectivistic, meaning that people view themselves as part of a unit, a work group, a family above being an individual. Your example of one man from China''s experience actually supports the widely held belief that Asian cultures tend to be collectivistic; the system decides what is best for the whole, and ''lesser'' people are directed to labor manual training. I do not equate collectivistic with self-esteem boosting and the ''everybody''s equal'' mentality. This type of culture does not imply an absence of hard work or striving to do one''s best. Rather, it is the idea that relationships to other people and the success of the group is more important that the feelings or accomplishments of an individual.


So let me be clear - I am competitive by nature. I think eighth grade graduations and more than one valedictorian (except in the case of an absolute tie) is RIDICULOUS! I am a high school teacher, and have not done research on elementary education, so I can''t speak to your husband''s theory on female elementary ed. You highlighted my comment on wishing everyone could get an A, but I''m not sure what your response to that was. When I taught chemistry and biology, an A was a rare thing. When I say that I wish all my students could get an A, I did not mean that I would like to give them all A''s because they are such wonderful little individuals and I want to give them a false sense of accomplishment. First, children see right through that and giving an A for no good reason would not help the self-esteem anyway. I meant that I wish they were all motivated enough, or bright enough, or I was somehow effective enough to get every kid in my classroom achieving at a high level. I think your husband would feel the same way.

Thanks for the clarification. It looks like we agree on at least part of our views of collectivistic cultures, although I suspect that that idealistic view of collectivist cultures caring about the whole, is mostly a sop for the masses. The people at the top of that pyramid are not playing by those rules, and make the rules to ensure their positions, along with the so-called ''common good''.

I''m not sure what it has to do with schooling here though. The myth we tell ourselves here in the US nowadays, that the Aisan cultures seem much more honest about, is that every child is or should be college bound, and if they aren''t, then we are failing somehow. We just try much longer than they do, but at the end of the day, a lot of kids still don''t go, much like other places. Our failing is not being unable to get every child to college, but not acknowledging that not every child WILL go, and as a society, making provision for that. There is no track other than a college track these days, not to mention that all the jobs that didn''t require any or much higher ed and yet payed at least a living wage, are gone offshore, never to return. THERE''S the failure.

So in the end, it kind of comes down to that question that no one can ever answer - WHAT is it that we are trying to produce when we say we want educated people. Are teachers supposed to be teaching some form of Jack Handy social engineering, or are teachers supposed to be teaching content - are we supposed to be creating selfless team members, or critical thinkers? And in a world of limited resources - both in herculean human effort and in money - how much of one should be given up for the other?

I think the DH''s theory comes from research he''s read, plus 5 years teaching middleschool, which is the age when the touchy-feely everybody-wins mentality should be starting to give way to a more content-centered modality. There was a genuine clash of philosophies and motivations in the middleschool teachers. He comes from a highschool mindset - degree in his TOPIC, content-driven over say, the general education degree and ''I am a teacher because I love children'' mindset. (That''s not a bad thing, but it doesn''t help all that much when teaching depth of content is the goal, like it is in highschool) He noted that since the elementary is dominated by women, when they move into the middleschools - which happens more often than highschool teachers moving there, they tend to bring the ''mother'' child-centered mentality to teaching there. In a nutshell, don''t hurt their feelings, change the criteria instead. Oh, and on the topic of ''celebrations'' (his eyes roll up a bunch when relating this) He also said that there are kindergarten graduations, 5th grade graduations...you get the drift. And those are happening nationally apparently, they''re not just a phenomenon here.

I don''t hold collectivistic culture in higher regard than individualistic. After all, I like to win. I was just noting that not all people have the same motivations for doing well, and that winning a blue ribbon isn''t the only thing that gets kids excited. Some people perform well because they want to win. Others perform well because they want to please family members or community members or because it brings them personal "honor." Regardless of what the motivation is, research has shown that internal motivators are much more effective than external.

I agree that the big question is WHAT are we trying to produce. I think most people can agree that problem solving and critical thinking are the main goals of an education. However, not everyone agrees on how to get there or how to assess mastery. I could go on and on about it... but it''s summer time, and I just turned in my final exams for the first session. It''s time for a break!

 

[gardengloves]

Re:

Date: 7/1/2010 11:31:59 PM
Author: choro72
And I agree with MustangGal. At 4th grade they are old enough to know what competition mean.

And you can bet these kids know exactly who comes in first place, who is smarter, who is the winner, etc. I certainly knew in 1st grade where everyone stood with their achievements. It''s human nature to assess yourself and others.

I agree, no matter what interventions adults impose, kids know who won and who lost. When I grew up ( 50's and 60's) there were no soccer moms, or play dates, or prizes for participating- we tied up our sneakers after school and headed down to the playground, and there were no adults around. We had hula hoops, sleds, spalding balls, roller skates, bicycles and maybe a stick ball, that was it. There were no adults around supervising- no organized activities. We played stick ball, hop scotch, patzi, ring a leavo, hand ball, jump rope. No one organized us or told us what to do. We formed into tribes. Everyone knew exactly who was the good player, the bad player, the smart kid, the bully, the kid you wanted on your team even if he wasn't an athlete but a good guy, the tattle tale, - kids have each other sussed out, and maintained a social order that was surprisingly fair, and we didn't have helmets or knee pads. We all survived, every last one of us.

 

[yssie]

SDL it seems quite a few of the posts were lost - I caught it before it went, though

it's been an interesting read. For my part.. I'm super-competitive, and when I was in primary school across the globe they encouraged all forms of rank/competition, so this is new and bizarre to me!

I think, for now at least, this - well, mollycoddling - is restricted to the western world - eastern countries' schooling systems embrace a 'do or die' mentality, in large part because they simply must for population reasons - there are just too many people fighting for a few spots from day one, unless families have the monetary resources to either buy priority or send prospectives elsewhere..

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Ok, I didn't realize the 8th grade graduation was so predominant! I had a good laugh the other day because I remembered my breeder was going to her grandson's junior high graduation. I was like, wtf?? Of course, I shouldn't really criticize - my elementary school had a graduation

I think having a healthy sense of competition is a good thing. As with many things, the extremes (complete lack of focus on competition and uber-competitiveness) are what's bad, and not competition itself.

Btw, I am STILL pissed at my high school for not weighting our GPAs. I took 8 AP exams, all Honors and AP classes, had a 3.8 GPA, and at least 5 people who graduated ahead of me had taken NO honors/APs. And it's not just a point of pride - in MT the full in-state scholarships are awarded by class rank, so I missed the cut-off. Totally worked out for me - I went to a way better private school that gave me way more money that the MT universities did, and I have no regrets, but it still burns me a bit

 

[steph72276]

My old post is gone too, so I just wanted to say again...in a day and age where the obesity rates in our children are exponentially high and at a time where our children are not expected to outlive their parents, I applaud the school for actually making an effort to get the children excited about running and exercise. There is so much pressure placed on teachers these days with No Child Left Behind to push test scores, that at some schools PE and recess have been completely eliminated. I see nothing wrong with giving everyone that participates in the run a ribbon...these are 7 year olds, not 17 year olds. That is a very fragile age in which kids are just learning their strengths...if they are made to feel they are not good at things like running and sports at such a young age where coordination is still developing, some will quit any kind of athletic efforts for good.

If parents want their children in competitive sports, that's fine and dandy, there are PLENTY of outlets outside of school for that. But making every.single.thing a competition is what fuels some of those wacked out parent to go crazy on the ball field yelling at their kids.

 

[steph72276]

My old post is gone too, so I just wanted to say again...in a day and age where the obesity rates in our children are exponentially high and at a time where our children are not expected to outlive their parents, I applaud the school for actually making an effort to get the children excited about running and exercise. There is so much pressure placed on teachers these days with No Child Left Behind to push test scores, that at some schools PE and recess have been completely eliminated. I see nothing wrong with giving everyone that participates in the run a ribbon...these are 7 year olds, not 17 year olds. After years of working as an elementary teacher, I can say this is a very fragile age in which kids are just learning their strengths...if they are made to feel they are not good at things like running and sports at such a young age where coordination is still developing, some will quit any kind of athletic efforts for good.

If parents want their children in competitive sports, that's fine and dandy, there are PLENTY of outlets outside of school for that. But making every.single.thing a competition is what fuels some of those wacked out parent to go crazy on the ball field yelling at their kids.

 

[lucyandroger]

Re:

I'm not sure where some people saw 4th grade...she said he's 7 years old, so that would be about 1st grade right? Anyway, with the obesity rates in children climbing the way they are, I just applaud the school for making an attempt to get the children interested in running at all. SO much has gone into pushing teachers to just get high test scores out of the children, basics like physical education have somewhat gone out the window, at least in some school districts. I think it's important for kids to think physical activity is FUN and want to get into sports. Not every.single.thing has to be a competition at 7 years old, they will have plenty of time for that. I would much rather my child learn to love sports than feel the pressure of competing at such a young age. The pressure is what makes some kids give up on sports altogether way too early and therefore never learn to love physical exercise.

I think this is a really great point, Steph. I agree.

 

[ksinger]

Ok, I didn't realize the 8th grade graduation was so predominant! I had a good laugh the other day because I remembered my breeder was going to her grandson's junior high graduation. I was like, wtf?? Of course, I shouldn't really criticize - my elementary school had a graduation

I think having a healthy sense of competition is a good thing. As with many things, the extremes (complete lack of focus on competition and uber-competitiveness) are what's bad, and not competition itself.

Btw, I am STILL pissed at my high school for not weighting our GPAs. I took 8 AP exams, all Honors and AP classes, had a 3.8 GPA, and at least 5 people who graduated ahead of me had taken NO honors/APs. And it's not just a point of pride - in MT the full in-state scholarships are awarded by class rank, so I missed the cut-off. Totally worked out for me - I went to a way better private school that gave me way more money that the MT universities did, and I have no regrets, but it still burns me a bit

Unfortunately, that is precisely the reasoning that gave us the multiple valedictorians in the first place. My little darling can't get the full ride because XYZ college only takes valedictorians, so...enter the hordes, make 'em all winners, weight the grades, change the criteria. You really need to get torqued at the colleges for being so short-sighted and/or LAZY that they can't take anything into account other than straight GPA when awarding scholarships. And with 8 AP exams, you clearly earned it. But the highschools shouldn't be messing with the grading to cater to the colleges' idiosyncracies.

 

[Brown.Eyed.Girl]

Ok, I didn't realize the 8th grade graduation was so predominant! I had a good laugh the other day because I remembered my breeder was going to her grandson's junior high graduation. I was like, wtf?? Of course, I shouldn't really criticize - my elementary school had a graduation

I think having a healthy sense of competition is a good thing. As with many things, the extremes (complete lack of focus on competition and uber-competitiveness) are what's bad, and not competition itself.

Btw, I am STILL pissed at my high school for not weighting our GPAs. I took 8 AP exams, all Honors and AP classes, had a 3.8 GPA, and at least 5 people who graduated ahead of me had taken NO honors/APs. And it's not just a point of pride - in MT the full in-state scholarships are awarded by class rank, so I missed the cut-off. Totally worked out for me - I went to a way better private school that gave me way more money that the MT universities did, and I have no regrets, but it still burns me a bit

Unfortunately, that is precisely the reasoning that gave us the multiple valedictorians in the first place. My little darling can't get the full ride because XYZ college only takes valedictorians, so...enter the hordes, make 'em all winners, weight the grades, change the criteria. You really need to get torqued at the colleges for being so short-sighted and/or LAZY that they can't take anything into account other than straight GPA when awarding scholarships. And with 8 AP exams, you clearly earned it. But the highschools shouldn't be messing with the grading to cater to the colleges' idiosyncracies.

True. I mean, I can't be all THAT mad. If I had gotten the full scholarship I would have probably stayed in-state and gone to the in-state school...and Montana is not exactly known for its great public universities, y'know? So it was a complete blessing in disguise. And I'm happy that the private university I did end up going to wasn't as short-sighted as the MT universities.

In the end, a lot of it evens out. People who miss out on full-scholarships based on the high school and/or college evaluation of class rank and GPA will get in elsewhere and be fine (a healthy competitive spirit helps with this I think). When I was applying to law school, the Law School Admissions Council actually goes through and evens out all undergrad GPAs, so you have your college GPA, and the LSAC GPA. Sometimes, depending on the school, there's a big discrepancy between the two.

P.S. Out of those APs, I did fail one It was Spanish

 

[steph72276]

Ooops, sorry for the double post....this new format is hard to see from my phone and it's too late to erase!