Fred Cuellar (again); or what do you guys think of this diamond?

[skyline]

Hi all, looking for a little help here!

I ran across a sarin report for this diamond in my travels (haven''t seen the diamond in person yet):
0.60 ct round brillant
Diam: 5.48 mm (5.47-5.50)
Depth: 3.32 mm 60.6%
Crown: 34.4 15.0%
Pavil: 40.5 42.7%
Table: 3.10 mm 56.6%
Culet: 0.9% very small
Girdle: 0.9% 0.7% thin 1.l% *uncertain how to interpret this line*
Price $2200
(any additional measurements or average readings I should be requesting?)

Holloway Cut Adviser says the following:
Light return: excellent
Fire: excellent
Scintillation: excellent
Spread: very good
Total visual performance:0.4 excellent within TIC range

Anyways, sounds pretty good to me. So I phone Fred Cuellar''s hotline to see what they say. They tell me "it''s warped, it''s a GIA Class 3. They measure 15.0+42.7+0.9=58.6, which is 2.0% off 60.6, hence it''s warped" They argue the diamond is worth $1500.

I have many degrees, and consider myself educated, but unfortunately I don''t have a gemologist degree, so I wouldn''t know how to argue his point. What do you guys think of this diamond and the price? Fred in general? (I''ve heard he''s been charged with fraud in the past)
Thanks in advance!

Skyline

 

[valeria101]

I am not sure what "warped diamnds" are although I could look that up...

But what is GIA class III ? Nothing noted on a GIA cert, for sure.

I am no GG either, but geometry I know enough to understand light return. If warped diamonds sparkle, they're good for me

No argument against Fred, but as long as he remains the one and only promotor and provider of non-warped diamonds, any theory with more supporters wins my vote. By now, ideal cut proportions have rather wider support than that, being promoted with more or less loose standards by the H&A brands, AGS, IGI and HRD reports and now GIA research. Enough for me. On the other hand, the only authority in the matter of non-warped diamonds remains Fred Cuellar. Of course, someone must be the first to see the light... so it's up to you

 

[moremoremore]

and let me guess....was fred going to try to find you a better one? that guy sucks.

 

[Rank Amateur]

You can't add up the girdle and the crown and pavillion depths and get the total depth. They are not measured to the same point, so adding them up is rather meaningless.

This is sort of a carnival trick with which any self-respecting vendor wouldn't attempt to dupe a consumer. Run far away. In fact, run far away from any vendor who bad mouths another in an attempt to get your business. (Oh, and vendors with criminal records, run from them too.)

It is possible for the table to be tilted such that that axis of the pavillion faceting is not purpendicular to the plane of the table, but the info on this doesn't come on a lab report.

 

[skyline]

In his book "How to buy a Diamond," he terms this "GIA classes of cuts":
Class I: American/Tolkowsky Cut (ie. depth can never exceed 61%)
Class II: at cost
Class III: 15-25% below cost
Class IV: 50-60% below cost

It lists specific criteria for Table, total depth, crown angle & height, pavilion angle & depth, and girdle thickness, etc. Of course, I had never heard of it either, so I assume it's another "Fredism" tool for his $$$.

Anyways, he argues that total depth %=crown ht%+pavilion depth%+girdle%, and if it's off by 0.5% the diamond is warped as it doesn't add up.

From my calculations, the diamond I'm looking at seems almost perfect, but his "warped" argument sounds good to a non-expert like me, so I wanted to see what other experts have to say.

Is this diamond a good one? I have a GIA cert, but it doesn't grade it.
And also, WHY DOESN'T THE SUM OF ALL PARTS EQUAL THE TOTAL DEPTH %?

 

[Rank Amateur]

Like I said, they are not measured to the same point, and remember that the girdle is scallop-shaped. It's a trick, sort of like the story about the three people who rent the room and magically a dollar disappears when you sum up their total individual room costs.

I'll try to roust up a diagram that shows how the girdle is measured.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 5/14/2004 4:41:29 PM Rank Amateur wrote:



It is possible for the table to be tilted such that that axis of the pavillion faceting is not purpendicular to the plane of the table, but the info on this doesn't come on a lab report. ----------------

Hm.. no not on a la report, but there is somethign on Sarin reprts: the degree to which the culet and table are offset ('offcenter')

But no, no one will make much of a case about that.

 

[skyline]

I forgot to mention, but if one of the vendors here on pricescope has an ideal round brillant cut diamond in the 0.6-0.75 ct range, VS2/G and up, at a competitive price, I'm listening. I intend to purchase in the next few months!

 

[Rank Amateur]

The geometry gets vary complicated. The culet can be off-center and the table still not be tilted, or conversely the table could be tilted but the culet could be right on the center of the table. No diamond is perfect, and I suspect that the tilt in most stones does not affect their appearances.

By really studying the sarin you might to able to look at opposite pairs of pavillion and crown facet angles and along with the corresponding girdle measurements get a sense of the tilt. I suppose a funky girdle profile from the report should set off a few alarms too.

 

[Bel]

Good Old Gold has a webpage talking about the how the percentages are actually measured and this nonsense with warped stones.

link

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 5/14/2004 4:54:02 PM skyline wrote:

I forgot to mention, but if one of the vendors here on pricescope has an ideal round brillant cut diamond in the 0.6-0.75 ct range, VS2/G and up, at a competitive price, I'm listening. I intend to purchase in the next few months!


----------------

Without actually doing a search I am going to guess that there are several pricescope vendors who have such diamonds at competitive prices. Perhaps Leonid would jump in and tell us how many diamonds are listed on his list, but it is in the thousands and no one bothers to list over priced stones as it costs money to list them and no one likes to throw away money.

You will have to go do the search though, as Leonid will "spank" any of the vendors who come on and wave, ooh, ooh , ooh. Me, I have it! It is one of the things that makes Pricescope such a neat and friendly place. We are allowed to help you find the knowledge, but you must go search and find the stone yourself.

As for Warped, it is largely agreed that it is Mr, Cuellar who is warped. He did make some spectacular Super Bowl rings for the Dallas Cowboys though. I got to appraise one many years ago and it was very impressive.

Wink

 

[WinkHPD]

P.S. What you find today will be long gone in a couple of months, but not to worry, there will alwasy be more coming in. Price increases coming though, if you wait it will cost more.

Rap went up again today, but not in the sizes that you are looking at.

 

[Shay37]

Wink, was that from 1992 with the star shaped diamond?

Shay

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 5/14/2004 9:20:58 PM Shay37 wrote:

Wink, was that from 1992 with the star shaped diamond?


Shay----------------

Yes. The center was a round brilliant cut diamond and Marquise cut diamonds had been cut in half and rounded to fit the curve of the center stone to make the arms of the star. It was a VERY nice ring. Mr. Cuellar told me it was the first time an independant jeweler had ever made the Super Bowl rings. We had a very nice discussion about the qualities of the stones use and what the cost to the team was so that I could know what it would cost to replace the rings. I was very impressed with him and he seemed like a very nice man.

He had his book agent send me two of his books as I was going to feature them on my website. (This was a LONG time ago.) Fortunately I would not put it on my site until after I read it. I startred reading in bed the evening that they arrived and just got madder and madder as I read. Before long my wife said to put the (expletive deleted) book down or get up and read in the other room as my cursing was keeping her awake and NO she did NOT want to hear another (expletive deleted) redicules statement from this (expletive deleted).

I got up and read the book in the kitchen and it was hours before I could cool down enough to go to sleep. I tried to call him to talk about the book but I never could get through to him again. Needless to say the pleasant impression was long gone and a few years later I found out the "rest of the story".

But man, that was a GREAT looking ring!

Wink

 

[Shay37]

Cool. Thanks, Wink. Appreciate the info. Didn't know that about the star. Thought it had actually been cut into a star pattern. Thanks again.

Shay