Harry Winston Halo / Limits of CAD + Cad Wax Verus High End Hand Made Like Leon Mege

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Dear All,

Could someone please explain to me the limitations of the CAD designed wax.

On one hand a local jeweler showed me a hand wax and a CAD wax and discussed how even and precise the CAD wax was. He told me you get much more even detailed precise work with a computer and showed me the differences in the waxes. He also said you have to get a high end setter to place the stones and to finish the piece but that he preferred working with the CAD and even high end rings are most often done this way now.

On the other hand there is no doubt that Leon Mege has done beautiful delicate pieces and I''ve heard he doesn''t even use a wax.
----------------------------------------------
Two of the major issues are with the size and angle of the bezel in the halo and the pave work in both the halo and shank.,
I am referring the following two points:
1) HW halo has less metal than the Leon Mege 811 adrianna and makes a 30 degree angle with the girdle of the stone.
2) The pave work of leon mege I prefer over any other that I have seen his mushroom pave or v cut pave seems to be the most delicate and refined I have seen.
---------------------------------------------------
Questions:
1) Can other jewelers using a CAD produce similar pave with smaller v cuts if you are specifc with them?
2) What are the limitations with the CAD wax and can you do as refined and delicate work?
3) Is the difference not in the wax and structural design but in the setting of the stones and the finishing work?
---------------------------

I look forward to any responses people may have.

 

[emeraldlover1]

What you are asking isn''t really clear. I read your whole post and I think what you are trying to decide is if CAD design can produce the same result as delicate hand made pave. Since you are a big fan of this...go to the vendor and see their work in person. I thin Iknow which CAD vendor you are talking about and I gaurentee you that if you vist both you will see the difference and answer your own question.

If you were a vendor that can not do hand made delicate pave work and the only type of design you had at your disposal was CAD...how would you sell it? While I have seen some CAD work that has less metal than hand made, most LM work has very limited metal. It has been rumored on occasion by LM himself that he does some work for HW. Like I said, rumors and references, however it is clear from your post that you haven''t met with him. So, why don''t you do that?

 

[mrssalvo]

people go to Leon for his artistic vision and talent. he is not the designer to choose if you are wanting certain angles etc. I do think their are jewelers out there who can do a nice job with wax/cad/cast ring but although it may be more precise it will not have the same delicate nature etc. of the way a high-end quality handmade piece does. there are pro''s and cons with both methods.

 

[decodelighted]

I can''t tell if you want the angle or want less metal or what. You might wanna re-read your post ... its quite confusing.

BUT

I don''t agree that the Leon has "more metal" that the Harry Winston. If you want Harry Winston, why not just buy that? Leon won''t make an exact copy & most other designers won''t either.

If you trying to get some CAD designing jeweler to get work as fine as either the Harry Winston or Leon ... good luck. Haven''t seen that happen yet.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/30/2009 9:34:12 AM
Author: mrssalvo
people go to Leon for his artistic vision and talent. he is not the designer to choose if you are wanting certain angles etc. I do think their are jewelers out there who can do a nice job with wax/cad/cast ring but although it may be more precise it will not have the same delicate nature etc. of the way a high-end quality handmade piece does. there are pro''s and cons with both methods.

What do you mean by the delicate nature?

The claw prongs? The vcut pave(or mushroom) I have mentioned? The Size of Melee?
The Thickness of the shank?

What are the Pros and Cons?

 

[mrssalvo]

leon's rings tend to just have a very daintiness and delicate nature about them, they are not clunky but yet they are very solid and well made.

here's a thread from a while back explaining some of the pros and cons..

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/differences-in-pave-rings-that-are-handmade-vs-cast.41084/

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/30/2009 11:41:54 AM
Author: mrssalvo
leon''s rings tend to just have a very daintiness and delicate nature about them, they are not clunky but yet they are very solid and well made.

here''s a thread from a while back explaining some of the pros and cons..

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/differences-in-pave-rings-that-are-handmade-vs-cast.41084/

I have read that thread carefully and I still need more information.

An experienced jeweler told me (this was after he rejected by ring design project as he couldnt'' get it done in time) that I shouldn''t try to copy this ring with CAD/CAM as this ring cannot be cast it would not hold up well.
He said no matter who I choose I should get it hand made not cast and that is part of the source of my questions.

The cast ones I have seen look thicker and less delicate but I can''t decide if thats because simply they use bigger diamonds and wider bands or because there is more metal and straighter lines not curved hand made touches.
My GF works in an office and is a bit klutzy at times so I can''t have a delicate ring with a 1.5mm band like a HW I am sure that could be bent in no time.

What I was also trying to explain in the top post is that Leon''s rings tend to have 0 angle between the plane of the girdle and the halo(see this thread https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-new-old-mine-cut-from-erd.121628/ with pictures) whereas the HW ones are tilted 30 degrees(I don''t care if its 30 or 20) but it can''t be 0 and this is a feature I want and at the very least I need someone who is willing to do this.

I know I am not going to be going to New York and spending $1500 (the whole ring is $4000 even from Leon Mege) on flight and accomodation just to see Leon Mege and flip through his catalogue. He has already told me he will take my project, although he doesn''t have much in the way of samples to show and certainly not in the style I want to see.

I have seen 30 rings on PS of LM and they are all gorgeous but really look delicate. If I have to have a 2.1mm or thicker band will I start to lose the difference between the two? and will a LM start looking more like the cast ones I''ve seen here from ERD or WF?

Still Stuck,

CCL

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 7/30/2009 9:20:19 AM
Author: emeraldlover1
What you are asking isn''t really clear. I read your whole post and I think what you are trying to decide is if CAD design can produce the same result as delicate hand made pave. Since you are a big fan of this...go to the vendor and see their work in person. I thin Iknow which CAD vendor you are talking about and I gaurentee you that if you vist both you will see the difference and answer your own question.

If you were a vendor that can not do hand made delicate pave work and the only type of design you had at your disposal was CAD...how would you sell it? While I have seen some CAD work that has less metal than hand made, most LM work has very limited metal. It has been rumored on occasion by LM himself that he does some work for HW. Like I said, rumors and references, however it is clear from your post that you haven''t met with him. So, why don''t you do that?

The hand made designers knock the Cad people and vice versa. Spoke to three CAD people who said CAD wax is more precise, allowes for more even pave work, makes it easier for the setter and no issues limiting metal) The cad images I have seen all look bulky so I have no idea how this translates to a delicate finished product even if I can understand a rendering is not is fine as the wax, and even the wax must leave room for filing and polishing.

Hand made designers said, (Durability issues with cast pieces, you shouldn''t do these type of rings with any portions being cast as the shape is difficult to do and there may be durability issues.)
Price is not the issue for me. Cad/Cam ($2900 with high end setter), Leon Mege $4000 approx.

 

[pixley]

Hi CCL,
Thinking back to the halos that have been posted on PS, the Leon Megé halos are the most precise, most delicate pave confections second only to the original Harry Winston micropave rings.

I understand your desire to make it sturdy while still maintaining the delicate look. I certainly wouldn’t go down to 1.5 mm thick on the band, but you could go to 1.8 and it would still look delicate, yet be more substantial than 1.5, which does seem too thin to me. I’d recommend talking to Leon, sending him the photo of AngelainJapan’s HW ring and asking him if his Adrianna could be made with the angled halo that you prefer. It is a lovely detail, but even if he can’t do the angle, I’d still have Leon make it for his precision and immaculate pave work.

Have you seen acebruin''s wife''s ring LM ring? The halo on her asscher is beautifully done, angle or no angle.

 

[arjunajane]

CCl,
you have said Leon is willing to take your project - but I wonder is he aware how much
control you would like over all these small details?

If you''ve read all the LM threads, I''m sure you''ve read he usually doesn''t merge well
with clients who are very picky/specific...
I''m not saying there is anything wrong with that, just that you may consider how much
of a good fit you two will be as I know you''re quite the perfectionist etc..

I agree with Pixley that from what you have described that you want, Leon would potentially do the best job.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/1/2009 1:59:58 AM
Author: pixley
Hi CCL,
Thinking back to the halos that have been posted on PS, the Leon Megé halos are the most precise, most delicate pave confections second only to the original Harry Winston micropave rings.

I understand your desire to make it sturdy while still maintaining the delicate look. I certainly wouldn’t go down to 1.5 mm thick on the band, but you could go to 1.8 and it would still look delicate, yet be more substantial than 1.5, which does seem too thin to me. I’d recommend talking to Leon, sending him the photo of AngelainJapan’s HW ring and asking him if his Adrianna could be made with the angled halo that you prefer. It is a lovely detail, but even if he can’t do the angle, I’d still have Leon make it for his precision and immaculate pave work.

Have you seen acebruin''s wife''s ring LM ring? The halo on her asscher is beautifully done, angle or no angle.

Love acebruin''s ring my favourite on all of PS love the pink melee. That halo is also flat but really suits the asscher.
We don''t want to go below 2mm hers is 1.5mm and several jewelers already said 2.1 - 2.3 would be much safer.

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Hey All,

I guess I can weigh in on this issue. The CAD vs. handmade question really doesn''t have a clear answer. But there can certainly be benefits to both methods of production. I can touch on a few pros and cons of each.

Hand-Made - A true hand fabricated ring is made from rolled wire or sheet stock that is carved, drilled, and tooled directly to create prongs, stonework, and engravings

Pro : Stronger metal (when metal is rolled out and hand fabricated the crystal structure is denser and you get more slightly more durable metal)

Con : Slow, difficult, and often times much more costly (There are very few craftsman who still work like this)

Pro : Details, ( when you work the metal directly certain details like engraving, milgrain, and certain pave'' styles can show and wear better)

Con : Limited design practicality, (In hand fabricated pieces the design limited due to the fact that you have to hand shape, bend, and join the metal. You are limited by how many solders and welds you can have in a hand fabricated design without compromising the structural integrity. To make certain design you would still have to still have to cast certain elements, sometines the head or shank)

CAD / Cast Desing - In terms of metal structure, there is no difference between CAD generated and hand carved waxes. Though the casting technique can greatly vary the quality of the finished design.

Pro : Perfect Precision, ( CAD allows the placement of the stones and design features with near perfect precision.)

Con : Potential density, porosity, and fill problems ( With less than perfect technique, the metal will fail to flow correctly, and problems can result)

Pro : Efficient and fast. ( A trained technician can quickly interpret a design into CAD, and perfectly render it in 3D wax )

Con : High over-head investment for full CAD setup. ( A new state- of the art CAD sofware and wax modeling set-up is very expensive, and you often times you have to employ a seperate CAD technician. )


This just begins to answer the questions about the two systems. I personally employ both hand-made and CAD-wax techniques when fabricating my design. When determining which system to use, I analyze each project on an individual basis to determine which method would be best. Some designs can be fully hand-made with great results for relatively low cost. Some designs are so complicated that they would be unnecessarily expensive and difficult to hand-make, so rationaly must be cast. It can also just depend on whats important to you. Hope this helps to shed some light on the issue, and I would be happy to talk more on this subject.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/1/2009 3:06:13 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer
Hey All,

I guess I can weigh in on this issue. The CAD vs. handmade question really doesn''t have a clear answer. But there can certainly be benefits to both methods of production. I can touch on a few pros and cons of each.

Hand-Made - A true hand fabricated ring is made from rolled wire or sheet stock that is carved, drilled, and tooled directly to create prongs, stonework, and engravings

Pro : Stronger metal (when metal is rolled out and hand fabricated the crystal structure is denser and you get more slightly more durable metal)

Con : Slow, difficult, and often times much more costly (There are very few craftsman who still work like this)

Pro : Details, ( when you work the metal directly certain details like engraving, milgrain, and certain pave'' styles can show and wear better)

Con : Limited design practicality, (In hand fabricated pieces the design limited due to the fact that you have to hand shape, bend, and join the metal. You are limited by how many solders and welds you can have in a hand fabricated design without compromising the structural integrity. To make certain design you would still have to still have to cast certain elements, sometines the head or shank)

CAD / Cast Desing - In terms of metal structure, there is no difference between CAD generated and hand carved waxes. Though the casting technique can greatly vary the quality of the finished design.

Pro : Perfect Precision, ( CAD allows the placement of the stones and design features with near perfect precision.)

Con : Potential density, porosity, and fill problems ( With less than perfect technique, the metal will fail to flow correctly, and problems can result)

Pro : Efficient and fast. ( A trained technician can quickly interpret a design into CAD, and perfectly render it in 3D wax )

Con : High over-head investment for full CAD setup. ( A new state- of the art CAD sofware and wax modeling set-up is very expensive, and you often times you have to employ a seperate CAD technician. )


This just begins to answer the questions about the two systems. I personally employ both hand-made and CAD-wax techniques when fabricating my design. When determining which system to use, I analyze each project on an individual basis to determine which method would be best. Some designs can be fully hand-made with great results for relatively low cost. Some designs are so complicated that they would be unnecessarily expensive and difficult to hand-make, so rationaly must be cast. It can also just depend on whats important to you. Hope this helps to shed some light on the issue, and I would be happy to talk more on this subject.

Thank-you for the information it summarized some of the information I had been given but you described it far more eloquently!
I just checked out your site some interesting tension settings.

So any advice on application of method given that this is a Harry Winston Micropave inspired ring I am considering?

Price not a factor, the complexity of the design you can see from the picture(s).

 

[Diamond Explorer]

Hi,

Sorry it took me a little while to get back. Your question inspired some thinking on my part and I had to ponder my response. I had some second thoughts about evening answering your question, not because I think your question is unreasonable, but because your are asking about the technical details of a very small and sometimes mysterious trade. I can only give you my personal knowledge, and can not tell you how HW or Leon do it, even if I have a pretty good idea.

You are asking what method I think would be best to make that ring price being no object. This is very different than most peoples idea of the ''best'' way to make it. The ''best'', being the most efficient, simple, and effective way to achieve the desired results. That design is relatively straight forward to render in CAD, cast as a single piece, and then polish and set the stones by hand. This would yield a very good result, and the stones would be placed with near perfect precision. I would guess that nearly everyone would say this is the ''best'' method.

However, this may not be the best way to make the ring if you have different priorities. It is possible to hand fabricate the components of this ring with various milling techniques, and then assemble them with welds or solders. This is a very difficult and labor intensive process, and it is very rare to find platinum-smiths who still work like this, but If done well, this could yield a stronger ring that is genuinely handmade and unique.

I hope I have given enough information to be helpful, and would be happy to clarify if needed.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 8/1/2009 12:52:16 AM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 7/30/2009 11:41:54 AM
He has already told me he will take my project, although he doesn't have much in the way of samples to show and certainly not in the style I want to see.
Still Stuck,


CCL

Hi, just want to throw this in, if you haven't already, you might want to do a search on peoples' working relationships with LM. They're varied. I'd read through these posts before making a final decision if he doesn't have something in the style you want to see already ready to go.

 

[strmrdr]

personally I think that ring is perfect for a die struck then cnc machined shank and a cast then finished head, then laser welded together.
That will give you the best of both worlds.
Cast one piece would be my last choice because there are many places where it is impossible to get a good polish on it that way.
But it really comes down to the skill of the craftsman no matter how the metal is formed.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/3/2009 8:54:39 AM
Author: strmrdr
personally I think that ring is perfect for a die struck then cnc machined shank and a cast then finished head, then laser welded together.
That will give you the best of both worlds.
Cast one piece would be my last choice because there are many places where it is impossible to get a good polish on it that way.
But it really comes down to the skill of the craftsman no matter how the metal is formed.

Storm,

Please help me understand your post:

Die struck than cnc machined shank? Could that be done from a wax? (Sound like thats not being cast and is being done by hand)

"Cast then finished head" the head could be done from a wax.
But if its one complete wax including the shank than would be your least preferred method due to the difficulty in polishing all pieces. That sounds more like what a hand craftsman would do who might cast the head and do the rest by hand.

Overall: I can''t even judge these elements and am just going to have to trust the level of skill of the craftsman and won''t be able to even make a comparison based on which method is used. It sounds like either method could come up with a very nice finished product and it all depends on the polishing, finishing and skill of the craftsmen doing the work in whichever method they prefer.

I am at a disadvantage as I can''t see this ring from any of my choices of designers, none would have suitable samples (including ERD, LM and local B&M).

Time to "Shut my eyes and just Trust ARGH!"

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 8/3/2009 3:16:37 AM
Author: Diamond Explorer
Hi,

Sorry it took me a little while to get back. Your question inspired some thinking on my part and I had to ponder my response. I had some second thoughts about evening answering your question, not because I think your question is unreasonable, but because your are asking about the technical details of a very small and sometimes mysterious trade. I can only give you my personal knowledge, and can not tell you how HW or Leon do it, even if I have a pretty good idea.

You are asking what method I think would be best to make that ring price being no object. This is very different than most peoples idea of the ''best'' way to make it. The ''best'', being the most efficient, simple, and effective way to achieve the desired results. That design is relatively straight forward to render in CAD, cast as a single piece, and then polish and set the stones by hand. This would yield a very good result, and the stones would be placed with near perfect precision. I would guess that nearly everyone would say this is the ''best'' method.

However, this may not be the best way to make the ring if you have different priorities. It is possible to hand fabricate the components of this ring with various milling techniques, and then assemble them with welds or solders. This is a very difficult and labor intensive process, and it is very rare to find platinum-smiths who still work like this, but If done well, this could yield a stronger ring that is genuinely handmade and unique.

I hope I have given enough information to be helpful, and would be happy to clarify if needed.

Thanks Diamond Explorer.
You have tactfully answered my question and I appreciate it.

 

[mrssalvo]

honestly, I think Leon would do a fantastic job if you can really just let go and let him do his thing. Tell him you want the shank to be at least 2mm, that shouldn''t be a problem for him at all.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 8/3/2009 1:26:10 PM
Author: mrssalvo
honestly, I think Leon would do a fantastic job if you can really just let go and let him do his thing. Tell him you want the shank to be at least 2mm, that shouldn''t be a problem for him at all.

Me too.

 

[Newbie627]

Hello CCL

Not sure if this will help you...but Leon is currently setting my cushion in the "Adrianna" setting. I requested a 2mm shank and the v-cut pave. The ring should be done in about a week or two. Maybe he could send you pics (I am terrible with a camera)..better if he would send them.

Some info for referencing my job in the case you are interested in seeing the photos when it is done..2.70 cushion....size 6....2 mm shank.....v-cut pave....platnium.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/3/2009 1:05:06 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 8/3/2009 8:54:39 AM

Author: strmrdr

personally I think that ring is perfect for a die struck then cnc machined shank and a cast then finished head, then laser welded together.

That will give you the best of both worlds.

Cast one piece would be my last choice because there are many places where it is impossible to get a good polish on it that way.

But it really comes down to the skill of the craftsman no matter how the metal is formed.

Storm,


Please help me understand your post:


Die struck than cnc machined shank? Could that be done from a wax? (Sound like thats not being cast and is being done by hand)


'Cast then finished head' the head could be done from a wax.

But if its one complete wax including the shank than would be your least preferred method due to the difficulty in polishing all pieces. That sounds more like what a hand craftsman would do who might cast the head and do the rest by hand.


Overall: I can't even judge these elements and am just going to have to trust the level of skill of the craftsman and won't be able to even make a comparison based on which method is used. It sounds like either method could come up with a very nice finished product and it all depends on the polishing, finishing and skill of the craftsmen doing the work in whichever method they prefer.


I am at a disadvantage as I can't see this ring from any of my choices of designers, none would have suitable samples (including ERD, LM and local B&M).


Time to 'Shut my eyes and just Trust ARGH!'

die struck means it is formed under high pressure in dies.
cnc means it is machined by a computer controlled machine to high tolerances.
It is one of the strongest and most precise ways of forming a shank.
no wax is involved.
There are several companies that offer this service to the trade as the machines are expensive.

casting the head would be done using wax.

but yes in the end it comes down to the still of the craftsman.

 

[elmo]

Date: 8/5/2009 10:02:48 AM
Author: strmrdr

cnc means it is machined by a computer controlled machine to high tolerances.

It is one of the strongest and most precise ways of forming a shank.

no wax is involved.

CNC in context of creating a shank many/most times means carving the wax via CNC not the metal.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/5/2009 11:51:16 AM
Author: elmo

Date: 8/5/2009 10:02:48 AM

Author: strmrdr


cnc means it is machined by a computer controlled machine to high tolerances.


It is one of the strongest and most precise ways of forming a shank.


no wax is involved.

CNC in context of creating a shank many/most times means carving the wax via CNC not the metal.

It is also done by milling the metal using a die struck ring as a base.
But your right most of the time it means using cnc to carve the wax.
Which is why I said die struck THEN cnc machined.