Calling NewEnglandLady...or any other independent women (who got/are getting married)

[NewEnglandLady]

The fact that she''s willing to alternate holidays, is thinking about color schemes and doesn''t seem to freak out about the idea of being marrired (which is very different from freaking out about the name change) makes me feel she''s not as far from being ready as you think.

I can''t wait to hear from you after you go to Yosemite--I think she''ll like that (though she probably shouldn''t wear the ring on the way down with the cables and all). We''re going to Yosemte among other places for our anniversary in Sept. to do some rock climbing. I hope you have a fantastic trip!!

 

[joflier]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:25:50 PM
Author: dockman3


Luckily I''m the most patient guy on the planet! (Or at least I''ve been told that!) I really don''t mind waiting, as everything is great with us right now. The only real reason I wanted to push things forward a bit is that we''re taking a trip next month and I wanted to propose while we were on the trip. We''re going to Yosemite and neither of us has ever been there. We''re planning on climbing the Half Dome, which is supposed to be amazing, and I was going to ask her on the top of the mountain. She''s pretty out doorsy and I think she would love that proposal, but if she''s not ready yet, like I was hoping she would be, then I''ll have to scrap that plan and come up with a new one. That''s why I bought the ring already, because I wanted to have it for this trip. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

It sounds that way. Kudos to you, you sound like an all around nice guy who''s very considerate and thoughtful. Your proposal idea sounds awesome. Are you going to take the ring with, just in case you feel the time might be right while your there?

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:33:17 PM
Author: Miranda
Maybe you should drop a hint about the ring. I know you want the proposal to be a surprise. It may be better if she has an idea it may be coming. When DH proposed he wanted it to be a complete surprise. I found out about it. It was actually better that way. I don''t know what I would have done if I was taken completely off guard. Our circumstances were very different from yours, though.

Miranda-

Thanks for the reply! I''ve tried hinting at it. I do want it to be a surprise, and I keep making comments like "When I buy you a ring...." or "When i finally get the ring...." or things of that nature. So I guess I just allude to buying it, not actually having bought it. She knows I''ve been looking and have visited the local B&M stores, she just doesn''t know that I actually have it. She knows I''m in the market, but she thinks I''m still in the process of saving for a ring.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:35:57 PM
Author: joflier

Date: 7/18/2008 4:25:50 PM

Author: dockman3



Luckily I''m the most patient guy on the planet! (Or at least I''ve been told that!) I really don''t mind waiting, as everything is great with us right now. The only real reason I wanted to push things forward a bit is that we''re taking a trip next month and I wanted to propose while we were on the trip. We''re going to Yosemite and neither of us has ever been there. We''re planning on climbing the Half Dome, which is supposed to be amazing, and I was going to ask her on the top of the mountain. She''s pretty out doorsy and I think she would love that proposal, but if she''s not ready yet, like I was hoping she would be, then I''ll have to scrap that plan and come up with a new one. That''s why I bought the ring already, because I wanted to have it for this trip. Oh well. You win some, you lose some.

It sounds that way. Kudos to you, you sound like an all around nice guy who''s very considerate and thoughtful. Your proposal idea sounds awesome. Are you going to take the ring with, just in case you feel the time might be right while your there?

Yeah, I''m going to take it with. The trip is actually starting out at her parents house because one of her high school friends is getting married. I''m using the trip to have "the talk" with her parents and ask for their blessing. I was thinking about showing them the ring if they asked to see it.

 

[Miranda]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:37:58 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:33:17 PM
Author: Miranda
Maybe you should drop a hint about the ring. I know you want the proposal to be a surprise. It may be better if she has an idea it may be coming. When DH proposed he wanted it to be a complete surprise. I found out about it. It was actually better that way. I don''t know what I would have done if I was taken completely off guard. Our circumstances were very different from yours, though.

Miranda-

Thanks for the reply! I''ve tried hinting at it. I do want it to be a surprise, and I keep making comments like ''When I buy you a ring....'' or ''When i finally get the ring....'' or things of that nature. So I guess I just allude to buying it, not actually having bought it. She knows I''ve been looking and have visited the local B&M stores, she just doesn''t know that I actually have it. She knows I''m in the market, but she thinks I''m still in the process of saving for a ring.

What does she say when you talk about buying a ring? Does she seem excited? Or does she turn pale? Haha, just kidding. You are quite a catch and it sounds like she knows that!

Another thought. Do you think she is just trying NOT to seem desperate? Or eager? Some girls go nuts waiting and expecting. I am not the desperate begging type either so that could be motivating her. Waiting for someone to propose is a scary thing for a control-freak type like me.

 

[galeteia]

Have you considered taking her name?

 

[AmberGretchen]

One other thought for you Dockman - does she have other friends who have gone through similar feelings/experiences, especially girlfriends? I ask because I, also, am a very independent (and ambitious career-wise) woman, and was initially very hesitant about marriage because I didn''t want to give that up at all.

One thing that has really helped me both during my engagement/wedding planning process and in the time since is my friends. I am lucky enough to be part of a group of friends who are all very intelligent, highly-educated, ambitious, and all-around amazing women. Not a single one of us "needed" to get married, but at our age (mid-to-late 20''s), many are starting to. Having them there to discuss all of the conflicting issues and feelings around that has helped a LOT.

I think the other thing that helped me a lot was hearing regularly from my then-BF and now-DH how supportive he is of me and my ambitions and my independence. Right now I''m in the process of applying for jobs that would keep me away from home 4 days a week much of the time, but he''s totally supportive because he knows how excited I am about the work and how great it would be for my career progression. When I tell him I''m doing something on my own, he''s totally fine with that too. I know it seems to you that these things go without saying, but sometimes it really helps a lot to hear them re-affirmed on a regular basis.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:43:45 PM
Author: Miranda

Date: 7/18/2008 4:37:58 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:33:17 PM
Author: Miranda
Maybe you should drop a hint about the ring. I know you want the proposal to be a surprise. It may be better if she has an idea it may be coming. When DH proposed he wanted it to be a complete surprise. I found out about it. It was actually better that way. I don''t know what I would have done if I was taken completely off guard. Our circumstances were very different from yours, though.

Miranda-

Thanks for the reply! I''ve tried hinting at it. I do want it to be a surprise, and I keep making comments like ''When I buy you a ring....'' or ''When i finally get the ring....'' or things of that nature. So I guess I just allude to buying it, not actually having bought it. She knows I''ve been looking and have visited the local B&M stores, she just doesn''t know that I actually have it. She knows I''m in the market, but she thinks I''m still in the process of saving for a ring.

What does she say when you talk about buying a ring? Does she seem excited? Or does she turn pale? Haha, just kidding. You are quite a catch and it sounds like she knows that!

Another thought. Do you think she is just trying NOT to seem desperate? Or eager? Some girls go nuts waiting and expecting. I am not the desperate begging type either so that could be motivating her. Waiting for someone to propose is a scary thing for a control-freak type like me.

Sometimes she seems excited, but not always. She doesn''t turn pale or anything, but sometimes it does freak her out. She has said before that when she was growing up, she never really saw herself married and didn''t really think anything of it. Now that it is going to happen, she just has to change her thinking, that''s all. She actually had a bet with her high school friends and whoever got married first owed the other two $50. We are approaching 10 years since they made that bet and none of them is married. We are obviously the closest, but there was actually a time when she would say, "you can''t propose until A''s bf propses. I''m not going to lose this bet!!" Hahaha. I always thought that was the most ridiculous thing I''d ever heard, but she told me how in hgh school, her and her friends couldn''t believe that anyone would actually want to get married. They thought it was the worst thing a girl could do for herself, and she''s still trying to shake that mentality.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 4:44:43 PM
Author: Galateia
Have you considered taking her name?

Honestly, I''ve thought about it, but I would rather not. I''ve already got my name established in the academic community with a couple of papers to my name, and I kind of want to keep that. I would consider us each keeping our names though.

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:09:16 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:44:43 PM
Author: Galateia
Have you considered taking her name?

Honestly, I''ve thought about it, but I would rather not. I''ve already got my name established in the academic community with a couple of papers to my name, and I kind of want to keep that. I would consider us each keeping our names though.

If that''s the case, it shouldn''t be for you to consider. You don''t want to change yours. If she doesn''t want to change hers, I really think you should respect that.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:00:18 PM
Author: AmberGretchen
One other thought for you Dockman - does she have other friends who have gone through similar feelings/experiences, especially girlfriends? I ask because I, also, am a very independent (and ambitious career-wise) woman, and was initially very hesitant about marriage because I didn''t want to give that up at all.

One thing that has really helped me both during my engagement/wedding planning process and in the time since is my friends. I am lucky enough to be part of a group of friends who are all very intelligent, highly-educated, ambitious, and all-around amazing women. Not a single one of us ''needed'' to get married, but at our age (mid-to-late 20''s), many are starting to. Having them there to discuss all of the conflicting issues and feelings around that has helped a LOT.

I think the other thing that helped me a lot was hearing regularly from my then-BF and now-DH how supportive he is of me and my ambitions and my independence. Right now I''m in the process of applying for jobs that would keep me away from home 4 days a week much of the time, but he''s totally supportive because he knows how excited I am about the work and how great it would be for my career progression. When I tell him I''m doing something on my own, he''s totally fine with that too. I know it seems to you that these things go without saying, but sometimes it really helps a lot to hear them re-affirmed on a regular basis.

Amber-

That''s so great that you had that support going through this. None of her close friends is even close to getting married. She''s essentially going to be the first of her friends while I will be the last of my friends to get married. All of my older cousins are married as well, which makes me next in line in the family. It would help if more of her friends were in long term relationships at this point, but none of them are. She''s the only one even contemplating marriage at this point. One of her close friends, who she made the bet with, recently separated from her bf. They were together about a year less than we are now, but she saw them as being on par with us. That did shake her confidence a little, but not too much. She still knows I''m an ok guy and is still very happy with me.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:12:46 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 7/18/2008 5:09:16 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:44:43 PM
Author: Galateia
Have you considered taking her name?

Honestly, I''ve thought about it, but I would rather not. I''ve already got my name established in the academic community with a couple of papers to my name, and I kind of want to keep that. I would consider us each keeping our names though.

If that''s the case, it shouldn''t be for you to consider. You don''t want to change yours. If she doesn''t want to change hers, I really think you should respect that.

Yeah, I''ve pretty much accepted that now. It would have been nice for her to take my name, but its certainly not a deal breaker for me!

 

[galeteia]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:09:16 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:44:43 PM

Author: Galateia

Have you considered taking her name?

Honestly, I''ve thought about it, but I would rather not. I''ve already got my name established in the academic community with a couple of papers to my name, and I kind of want to keep that. I would consider us each keeping our names though.

You could keep it professionally, and that way your children would have the same name. Just a thought. Kudos to you for considering the possibility.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that women keeping their names is so common nowadays (or at least it is in Canada) that provided the school/daycare/etc is provided with both the names of the parents, women having different names than their children doesn''t raise eyebrows like it used to.

One of my highschool boyfriends and his brother had their mother''s maiden name as their middle names, and never ran into any problems that I heard of.

I hear what you are saying about feeling like you are always the one making compromises; my partner and I are in a similar situation. Yes, I was the one who gave up my entire life to move to his country and be with him, but he acknowledges the weight of what I have done for him and things are generally done the way I prefer. Our legal marriage was done the way I was most comfortable with (aka, bare minimum needed for legality), I kept my name, he lets me introduce myself to people so I can identify as either his girlfriend, wife, or partner, depending on what I feel is appropriate for the situation.

My guy was also confused by my mixed signals; on the one hand I was sketching my wedding dress and gossiping about flowers and invites with his mother, on the other hand I was hyperventilating about being ''forced'' to get married when I didn''t ever want to be married, period, and forbidding him from proposing to me because I wasn''t ready. However, by living together I am slowly easing myself into the idea.

If I had my druthers, we''d stick to common-law like and eschew formal marriage entirely. I''ve been fiercely independent and at times outright scornful of marriage, so I empathize with your girlfriend''s distress at the prospect.

If you want to marry her, then it may have to be on her terms. I wouldn''t want to find myself in a traditional marriage either. You may need to throw convention out the window.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:33:19 PM
Author: Galateia

Date: 7/18/2008 5:09:16 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 4:44:43 PM

Author: Galateia

Have you considered taking her name?

Honestly, I''ve thought about it, but I would rather not. I''ve already got my name established in the academic community with a couple of papers to my name, and I kind of want to keep that. I would consider us each keeping our names though.

You could keep it professionally, and that way your children would have the same name. Just a thought. Kudos to you for considering the possibility.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that women keeping their names is so common nowadays (or at least it is in Canada) that provided the school/daycare/etc is provided with both the names of the parents, women having different names than their children doesn''t raise eyebrows like it used to.

One of my highschool boyfriends and his brother had their mother''s maiden name as their middle names, and never ran into any problems that I heard of.

I hear what you are saying about feeling like you are always the one making compromises; my partner and I are in a similar situation. Yes, I was the one who gave up my entire life to move to his country and be with him, but he acknowledges the weight of what I have done for him and things are generally done the way I prefer. Our legal marriage was done the way I was most comfortable with (aka, bare minimum needed for legality), I kept my name, he lets me introduce myself to people so I can identify as either his girlfriend, wife, or partner, depending on what I feel is appropriate for the situation.

My guy was also confused by my mixed signals; on the one hand I was sketching my wedding dress and gossiping about flowers and invites with his mother, on the other hand I was hyperventilating about being ''forced'' to get married when I didn''t ever want to be married, period, and forbidding him from proposing to me because I wasn''t ready. However, by living together I am slowly easing myself into the idea.

If I had my druthers, we''d stick to common-law like and eschew formal marriage entirely. I''ve been fiercely independent and at times outright scornful of marriage, so I empathize with your girlfriend''s distress at the prospect.

If you want to marry her, then it may have to be on her terms. I wouldn''t want to find myself in a traditional marriage either. You may need to throw convention out the window.

Galateia,

Thanks for the insight! I think you are now the closest to what my gf thinks! She''s joked about how we should just be like Kurt Russle and Goldie Hawn and just live together for the rest of our lives without getting married. I retort that I want the tax breaks and lower car insurance that comes with being married. Hahaha.

Seriously though, I can get married on her terms. We were both raised Catholic and she does want a full wedding mass. Do you see how these are even more mixed signals?!? We''ve been living together for almost 2 years now, which is quite a while, IMO. She even moved out here to be with me and joined my group of grad school friends and carved out her own niche, which was pretty amazing. She wasn''t just Dockman''s gf, she was her own person. I''ve tried to tell her that marriage will be the same way, but she won''t believe me. I don''t know what else to tell her, so I guess I''ll just keep being supportive and waiting until she''s ready.

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Dockman~

May I ask how old you and your GF are? I was only 22 when I married my XH. I was very doubtful that I was doing the right thing, but I just chalked that up to "cold feet" and did it anyway. I thought I was ready, but I wasn''t. Does she have friends/family members who are divorced? Maybe that''s what''s scaring her?

Now that I''m remarried, I think my faith in marriage has been pretty much restored . . . I married the right guy this time! But, when DH asked me to marry him, I did have some reservations (as I did when I got engaged to my XH). I think I''m like your GF in that I''m very independent and I don''t want to be known solely as someone''s wife ~ I like having my own identity. And I think you''re like my DH, in that you''re the one who is bringing up the topic of marriage, when traditionally (stereotypically?) it''s usually the woman in that role.

I think a lot of guys don''t realize how much of an adjustment it is for a woman when she gets married. Even if you''ve lived together before the engagement/marriage (as I did with both my XH and DH), things are different. And it''s not just her name that''s (possibly) going to change. When she says "yes" to you and puts that (gorgeous, BTW) ring on her finger, she is making a huge commitment. And she''s making an even bigger commitment when she marries you. I think it''s wise that you''re waiting until you think she''s ready before doing the proposal. Now that you have the ring, you can just hang onto it, knowing it will be there whenever the right moment comes along.

About the name change issue: Has she considered dropping her middle name, keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking your last name? That''s what I did. To illustrate this a little better, my initials used to be EAW, but they''re now EWR.

Just my thoughts on this issue . . . hope I made sense!

 

[iheartscience]

It''s great that you''re so understanding and patient, but I have to agree with everyone else and tell you to back off of the name change thing. You "considering" the two of you keeping your own names is pretty ridiculous. It''s not up to you whether she keeps her name. It''s up to you whether you keep your name. And am I the only person who doesn''t think it''s a tragedy if the kids get a long, hyphenated name that doesn''t sound that good? Oh well!

Honestly, I think your expectations of marriage seem very "traditional," which may be contributing to her reservations. Who knows what else you''ll expect out of her in your marriage? Quitting her job and staying home to raise the kids?

I''m not trying to be nasty, but when I read some parts of your posts, I was struck with the thought that your expectations of getting her to change her name could be part of why she''s still not too stoked on marriage.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 7/18/2008 5:44:21 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 5:33:19 PM

Author: Galateia


If I had my druthers, we'd stick to common-law like many couples in Canada do and eschew formal marriage entirely. I've been fiercely independent and at times outright scornful of marriage, so I empathize with your girlfriend's distress at the prospect.


If you want to marry her, then it may have to be on her terms. I wouldn't want to find myself in a traditional marriage either. You may need to throw convention out the window.

Galateia,


Thanks for the insight! I think you are now the closest to what my gf thinks! She's joked about how we should just be like Kurt Russle and Goldie Hawn and just live together for the rest of our lives without getting married. I retort that I want the tax breaks and lower car insurance that comes with being married. Hahaha.


Seriously though, I can get married on her terms. We were both raised Catholic and she does want a full wedding mass. Do you see how these are even more mixed signals?!? We've been living together for almost 2 years now, which is quite a while, IMO. She even moved out here to be with me and joined my group of grad school friends and carved out her own niche, which was pretty amazing. She wasn't just Dockman's gf, she was her own person. I've tried to tell her that marriage will be the same way, but she won't believe me. I don't know what else to tell her, so I guess I'll just keep being supportive and waiting until she's ready.

Whoops, looks like the bolded part got cut somehow when I posted. Not that it makes any huge difference, aside from the fact that many couples up there can and do use it as another step towards marriage. I wonder if it eases the LIWitis of any Canadian girls, knowing that when people ask about their status, they can identify as common-law and don't need to be embarrassed by being 'only a girlfriend'. Hm. Well, tangent over.

Can I ask what your own motivation is to get married? I mean, presumably beyond the tax breaks and insurance that you mentioned to your girlfriend, I'm assuming that isn't your primary reason.

I'm impressed that your girlfriend has managed to carve out her own life after being transplanted kit and caboodle into yours. I had forgotten she also essentially migrated for your sake.

Putting myself in her shoes (since as you pointed out, she and I seem to wear similar shoes, so I'm going to take a stab at it) I might feel that a proposal of marriage on top of the transplant, on top of the issues with your mother, and on top of not being firmly established in my own career and thus having a solid, independent self-image; well, it would be just more than I could bear. (I get wonky when we get congrats cards from his mother's church buddies. I'm serious. I threw the last one across the room and shrieked something incoherent about putting the cart before the horse.)

You may need to dig in and prep for a few years' wait.

Disclaimer: I have written this post during intervals in dinner-making, so it might be a bit disjointed.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 6:05:31 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Dockman~

May I ask how old you and your GF are? I was only 22 when I married my XH. I was very doubtful that I was doing the right thing, but I just chalked that up to ''cold feet'' and did it anyway. I thought I was ready, but I wasn''t. Does she have friends/family members who are divorced? Maybe that''s what''s scaring her?

Now that I''m remarried, I think my faith in marriage has been pretty much restored . . . I married the right guy this time! But, when DH asked me to marry him, I did have some reservations (as I did when I got engaged to my XH). I think I''m like your GF in that I''m very independent and I don''t want to be known solely as someone''s wife ~ I like having my own identity. And I think you''re like my DH, in that you''re the one who is bringing up the topic of marriage, when traditionally (stereotypically?) it''s usually the woman in that role.

I think a lot of guys don''t realize how much of an adjustment it is for a woman when she gets married. Even if you''ve lived together before the engagement/marriage (as I did with both my XH and DH), things are different. And it''s not just her name that''s (possibly) going to change. When she says ''yes'' to you and puts that (gorgeous, BTW) ring on her finger, she is making a huge commitment. And she''s making an even bigger commitment when she marries you. I think it''s wise that you''re waiting until you think she''s ready before doing the proposal. Now that you have the ring, you can just hang onto it, knowing it will be there whenever the right moment comes along.

About the name change issue: Has she considered dropping her middle name, keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking your last name? That''s what I did. To illustrate this a little better, my initials used to be EAW, but they''re now EWR.

Just my thoughts on this issue . . . hope I made sense!

Emm-

Thanks so much for you comments!! We are both 26 right now, but the way it stands, we won''t actually be married until we''re 28. She really doesn''t have any friends or relatives that have been divoriced, and neither do I. Certainly we both know people who''s parents have gotten divorced, but they are in the minority by a long shot.

Its true that I am the one bringing it up, which does makes this slightly different from a more traditional relationship. That''s why there is a LIW forum here and not a GIW (Gentlemen in Waiting)! I guess I didn''t have much of an appreciation for the changes that a woman goes through. I never really had anybody else to talk to on this since all of my friends that did get married who I have talked to about this have just said that it wasn''t a big deal and they all REALLY wanted to get married and had no seconds thoughts at all and couldn''t wait to take their guy''s name. I even had one friend who, no joke, sent out an email the day after she was married with her new name and a new email address to fit!

In the end, I think I''m coming to the conculsion that I just have to wait for her and there''s really not much I can say or do to get her to move up her timetable, other than just be there for her and keep being supportive and keep loving her like I do!

Thanks so much for your insight here. I really appreciate it as I haven''t been able to get it my friends IRL. Its so wonderful to hear about your current DH and restored faith in marriage. I hope you continue to be this happy for the rest of your life. Thanks again!

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 8:49:32 PM
Author: thing2of2
It''s great that you''re so understanding and patient, but I have to agree with everyone else and tell you to back off of the name change thing. You ''considering'' the two of you keeping your own names is pretty ridiculous. It''s not up to you whether she keeps her name. It''s up to you whether you keep your name. And am I the only person who doesn''t think it''s a tragedy if the kids get a long, hyphenated name that doesn''t sound that good? Oh well!

Honestly, I think your expectations of marriage seem very ''traditional,'' which may be contributing to her reservations. Who knows what else you''ll expect out of her in your marriage? Quitting her job and staying home to raise the kids?

I''m not trying to be nasty, but when I read some parts of your posts, I was struck with the thought that your expectations of getting her to change her name could be part of why she''s still not too stoked on marriage.

I have backed off on the name thing and we''ll work that out just like we''ve worked out everything else in our relationship to date, but thank you very much for your input. I really do value everyone''s input here.

My expectations are sometimes traditional, but that''s mostly because I grew up in a very traditional household. Those habbits are hard to break. As I''ve already stated, I would gladly quit my job and stay home with the kids if it made sense financially for us to do that. If we both have to work, we''ll deal with that, but I have never once said that I wanted her to stay home to cook and clean. I know she would never do that and that''s not what I want. I want her to be her and not have to change for me. She''s wonderful the way she is, I just wish she was ready to married now because I am. That''s all. I fell in love with this wonderful, amazing, independent woman who knows how to have a good time and who has opened me up to many new things in life. I can''t imagine going through life without her now that she''s been a part of my life for so long.

Thanks again for your input. Its great to get all sorts of ideas here and I want to hear everything. I take marriage extremely seriously and so if there is something I''m missing or some suggestions as to what I can improve upon, I want to hear it. So thanks again!

 

[Lorelei]

In the end, I think I''m coming to the conculsion that I just have to wait for her and there''s really not much I can say or do to get her to move up her timetable, other than just be there for her and keep being supportive and keep loving her like I do!

And I think that is the crux of the matter Dockman, I would just hang in there and forget about proposing or trying to broach the M word for now, I am sure time will work in your favour if you give it a chance to!

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/18/2008 8:54:54 PM
Author: Galateia

Date: 7/18/2008 5:44:21 PM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 5:33:19 PM

Author: Galateia


If I had my druthers, we''d stick to common-law like many couples in Canada do and eschew formal marriage entirely. I''ve been fiercely independent and at times outright scornful of marriage, so I empathize with your girlfriend''s distress at the prospect.


If you want to marry her, then it may have to be on her terms. I wouldn''t want to find myself in a traditional marriage either. You may need to throw convention out the window.

Galateia,


Thanks for the insight! I think you are now the closest to what my gf thinks! She''s joked about how we should just be like Kurt Russle and Goldie Hawn and just live together for the rest of our lives without getting married. I retort that I want the tax breaks and lower car insurance that comes with being married. Hahaha.


Seriously though, I can get married on her terms. We were both raised Catholic and she does want a full wedding mass. Do you see how these are even more mixed signals?!? We''ve been living together for almost 2 years now, which is quite a while, IMO. She even moved out here to be with me and joined my group of grad school friends and carved out her own niche, which was pretty amazing. She wasn''t just Dockman''s gf, she was her own person. I''ve tried to tell her that marriage will be the same way, but she won''t believe me. I don''t know what else to tell her, so I guess I''ll just keep being supportive and waiting until she''s ready.

Whoops, looks like the bolded part got cut somehow when I posted. Not that it makes any huge difference, aside from the fact that many couples up there can and do use it as another step towards marriage. I wonder if it eases the LIWitis of any Canadian girls, knowing that when people ask about their status, they can identify as common-law and don''t need to be embarrassed by being ''only a girlfriend''. Hm. Well, tangent over.

Can I ask what your own motivation is to get married? I mean, presumably beyond the tax breaks and insurance that you mentioned to your girlfriend, I''m assuming that isn''t your primary reason.

I''m impressed that your girlfriend has managed to carve out her own life after being transplanted kit and caboodle into yours. I had forgotten she also essentially migrated for your sake.

Putting myself in her shoes (since as you pointed out, she and I seem to wear similar shoes, so I''m going to take a stab at it) I might feel that a proposal of marriage on top of the transplant, on top of the issues with your mother, and on top of not being firmly established in my own career and thus having a solid, independent self-image; well, it would be just more than I could bear. (I get wonky when we get congrats cards from his mother''s church buddies. I''m serious. I threw the last one across the room and shrieked something incoherent about putting the cart before the horse.)

You may need to dig in and prep for a few years'' wait.

Disclaimer: I have written this post during intervals in dinner-making, so it might be a bit disjointed.

Galateia-

My real motivation to get married is the fact that I''ve found the girl for me and I want nothing more than to be hers forever. I''m ready to take that step and make her my wife. We''ve been together so long now and living together for about 2 years and living like we were married, I didn''t see the big problem with just making it official. I see that problem now and that it does changes things on her end emotionally, and I didn''t realize that before. So thank your to everyone for pointing that out to me.

Thanks so much for your input and trying to put yourself in her shoes. I think she might feel that way too and that is why she wants to wait. Her professional life actually isn''t all that great now. She is bored with her current job and is looking for another, but with the economy the way it is, she''s having a hard time. That certainly is not helping matters.

As for the issues with my mother, those have been mostly worked out. We sat down and had a good heart to heart and all agreed to try to start over and just get to know each other better. So the situation isn''t perfect yet, but there is progress being made and all parties involved have expressed willingness to try in the future. My mom is actually coming to visit next weekend, so we''ll see how that goes. But that''s a topic for a whole other thread!

In the end, from all of these responses that I''ve read, it looks like I have two choices: 1) I can wait until she is actually ready or 2) I can give her an ultimatum and force her to try to marry me, in which case she says no and leaves me forever. I''ll go with door number 1! Hahaha. Thanks again everybody, I really appreciate it! You gals are wonderful!

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/20/2008 10:10:53 AM
Author: Lorelei
In the end, I think I''m coming to the conculsion that I just have to wait for her and there''s really not much I can say or do to get her to move up her timetable, other than just be there for her and keep being supportive and keep loving her like I do!

And I think that is the crux of the matter Dockman, I would just hang in there and forget about proposing or trying to broach the M word for now, I am sure time will work in your favour if you give it a chance to!

Thanks Lorelei. I figured that out too, it just took me longer than I thought it would. I''m sure time will work in my favor too, and I can wait forever for this one. She''s wonderful and very much worth waiting for. Thanks again!

 

[Independent Gal]

Hi there! I''m another lady who, after 12 or so years of running around the world by myself, establishing a successful career and professional identity, getting a Ph.D., writing a book, etc., felt pretty scared about losing my identity within the marriage and having things not be fair and equal. Here are my suggestions:

1) Don''t put any pressure on her about the name at ALL! The name thing is a BIG deal to some women. I kept my name, and honestly, if DH had pressured me even a tiny bit about the name thing, I would have run screaming, seeing that as a sign of incremental smushedness and identity-loss pressure to come. My mother has a different name than me and it was never an issue. Then you can flip a coin about whose name the kids get, or just whoever it means more to. But seriously, dude, back off on the name thing. That''s only going to make it worse.

2) Is she worried she''ll end up having to take on more than her share of chores? Does she already? That was another area of concern for me. The more you can even it up (I mean hrs per wk) and convince her that it will stay that way, the better.

3) What things does she like to do alone? For me, it was travel, and DH agreed that every other christmas, if I wanted, he would be totally cool with it if instead of going to visit his parents, I went traveling by myself. That''s what I''d been doing all these years... traveling at christmas alone. It''s one of my great pleasures, you see! So, if you can pinpoint things she loves to do alone and is afraid of losing, that might help if you could guarantee them.

4) Separate finances. Having my own money, my own bank accounts, investments, etc., helps me feel independent. I have not put his name on the deed to my condo either, although we''ll own the next one together.

5) Maybe suggest she talk to a married friend? Maybe if her friend shared her anxiety, it will help her realize it''s normal. The idea of being married scared the CR@P out of me! Same with many of my friends. My bff is going through it right now actually. The exact seem worries your girlfriend has. It is very, very normal. Me and bff both read a cheesy (super cheesy!) but helpful book called ''Emotionally ENgaged'' that''s about these very issues. I found it extremely helpful even though it made me cringe here and there in that self-help way.

I hope that helps! The thing to remember is that her fears are not crazy. Women do, statistically, end up bearing the brunt of things in a marriage and it does take extra work to assert your identity as an independent woman. Whatever you can do to help her feel good about it is worth it (like, say, letting go of the whole name issue), because you know what they say: "Happy wife, happy life!"

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/20/2008 10:54:05 AM
Author: Independent Gal
Hi there! I''m another lady who, after 12 or so years of running around the world by myself, establishing a successful career and professional identity, getting a Ph.D., writing a book, etc., felt pretty scared about losing my identity within the marriage and having things not be fair and equal. Here are my suggestions:

1) Don''t put any pressure on her about the name at ALL! The name thing is a BIG deal to some women. I kept my name, and honestly, if DH had pressured me even a tiny bit about the name thing, I would have run screaming, seeing that as a sign of incremental smushedness and identity-loss pressure to come. My mother has a different name than me and it was never an issue. Then you can flip a coin about whose name the kids get, or just whoever it means more to. But seriously, dude, back off on the name thing. That''s only going to make it worse.

2) Is she worried she''ll end up having to take on more than her share of chores? Does she already? That was another area of concern for me. The more you can even it up (I mean hrs per wk) and convince her that it will stay that way, the better.

3) What things does she like to do alone? For me, it was travel, and DH agreed that every other christmas, if I wanted, he would be totally cool with it if instead of going to visit his parents, I went traveling by myself. That''s what I''d been doing all these years... traveling at christmas alone. It''s one of my great pleasures, you see! So, if you can pinpoint things she loves to do alone and is afraid of losing, that might help if you could guarantee them.

4) Separate finances. Having my own money, my own bank accounts, investments, etc., helps me feel independent. I have not put his name on the deed to my condo either, although we''ll own the next one together.

5) Maybe suggest she talk to a married friend? Maybe if her friend shared her anxiety, it will help her realize it''s normal. The idea of being married scared the CR@P out of me! Same with many of my friends. My bff is going through it right now actually. The exact seem worries your girlfriend has. It is very, very normal. Me and bff both read a cheesy (super cheesy!) but helpful book called ''Emotionally ENgaged'' that''s about these very issues. I found it extremely helpful even though it made me cringe here and there in that self-help way.

I hope that helps! The thing to remember is that her fears are not crazy. Women do, statistically, end up bearing the brunt of things in a marriage and it does take extra work to assert your identity as an independent woman. Whatever you can do to help her feel good about it is worth it (like, say, letting go of the whole name issue), because you know what they say: ''Happy wife, happy life!''

IG-

Thanks so much for your response! I really appreciate it and I''m goign to try to respond to each item:

1. I''m sure you haven''t taken the time to read all of the posts (and quite honestly I wouldn''t have either) but I''ve decided to back off on the name thing. We''ll work it out just fine and I''m not worried about that anymore.

2. No, this really isn''t a concern. We split the housework evenly right now and have a good system worked out on that front.

3. She does like to travel but not necessarily alone, but she also likes her girls nights out and things like that. I''ve never stopped her from doing things on her own and I never plan to. But this is a great point and I''ll keep it in mind as we move forward.

4. She''s brought this up before. I''m ok with her having her own finances and keeping some money on the side for herself. I totally understand that and it won''t be a big deal, as long as she continues to pay for her part of things, which she is very good about. I''m sure we''ll own our home together, but that will not happen until we are married, so its kind of a moot point before we''re married! This is a great suggestion though and something I had forgotten about.

5. None of her close friends are married. That''s the other problem. She''ll be the first of her friends while I''ll be the last of mine. All of my friends wanted to get married and couldn''t wait and got married right out of college while we''re almost 5 years out now and none of her friends even have a long term relationship. So she doesn''t have many people to talk to about this. I''ll suggest that book maybe and see if I can''t get her to read it. That''s a great idea. Thanks!!

Thanks again for you comments. I really appreciate it!

 

[katamari]

Hi Dockman! I sense that you are listening to a lot of us independent women''s advice, and it seems like you are coming to peace with your issues. So, I hate to jump in with (what I think is) a different opinion when you are reaching resolution, but here it goes.

First, at Kat the social scientist. While it is nice that you are asserting how you appreciate her independence and plan to recognize it, I assume that her issues with marriage have nothing to do with your relationship. She is a woman in a world where there are clear inequalities between men and women. A lot of these are cultural and have to do with cultural expectations of gender and marriage.

For instance, if you have a traditional wedding (which it sounds like you are leaning toward with the full mass ceremony), she will have to sit at the bridal shower and open toasters and irons and be bombarded with jokes about how they are really for you to a room full of roaring laughter (because everyone knows this is ironic given gender stereotypes). She lives in a society where, regardless of whether a couple makes the decision based on gender roles or economics, women largely end up being the ones who stay at home with children because they a) are expected to or b) earn less due to gender inequality or c) have more flexible schedules (which, I know in your case is not going to be the issue, but I am talking in the general here). Or, to belabor the name issue, she lives in a world where women have to choose whether or not to take man''s names and explain why they did or didn''t to people while the man never has to explain why he didn''t consider her name. Plus, as IndyGal mentions, women do statistically do more housework and childrearing in heterosexual relationships post marriage regardless of their previous arrangements.

Knowing all of this is scary! And, the bigger issue for the two of you is that it is independent of your relationship and your feelings for one another. So, if you really are going to go to the library to read up on her insecurities (which you mentioned in an earlier post), I also suggest reading about the things you cannot change and talking about your relationship in the context of these things. I will happily make suggestions if you are interested.

Now, a word from Kat the person. Like your GF, I spent a very long time resisting marriage even though I was in a relationship with a man I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. But, I really freaked out when we moved in together. Every time I cleaned, I felt it was gendered. I would yell at my SO if I took longer to clean than he did or if I cooked for being a misogynist. Etc. It took the two of us a long time and a lot of long discussions to realize when to and when not to politicize our relationship and to identify when an issue was about gender and when it wasn''t.

I, like many women who have commented so far, thought that we had to wait to marry until I was ready (insisting I may never be ready) and I convinced my BF of this. Then, I realized this rhetoric was just as gender unequal as the institution I was fearing. Even posters here have said things like "maybe she doesn''t want to plan a wedding yet. . ." , "maybe she needs time to figure x, y, and z out" assuming that it will be here responsibility. Even assuming that the woman has to be ready for marriage implies that it is an unequally valued thing.

Of course, I think these comments are completely innocent, but they are telling. If you make the decision about when you propose about HER, it is not about THE TWO OF YOU! This is just as gendered as expecting her to take your name, stay at home with the kids, etc. Marriage should be a decision that the two of you make together. If you are wanting to propose in a month, by all means sit her down and talk to her about it and discuss YOUR lives together and YOUR relationship. Emphasize to her that this is important to you because it is about the two of you. You need to discuss gender and family issues together. As an independent gal, this is the kind of stuff I would really appreciate! And, even calling yourself a GIW shows that you are man enough (hehe) to have this kind of discussion with her about gender and family.

Again, it took me a long time to realize the importance of making relationships together, and it may just be what being an independent woman meant to me. But, when I felt like it was a mutual discussion between us where both of us had equal weight in the life we were planning together, then I finally started getting excited about being married.


Now, I need to give my fingers a nap. LOL. Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps!

 

[Irishgrrrl]

Date: 7/20/2008 9:54:44 AM
Author: dockman3

Date: 7/18/2008 6:05:31 PM
Author: Irishgrrrl
Dockman~

May I ask how old you and your GF are? I was only 22 when I married my XH. I was very doubtful that I was doing the right thing, but I just chalked that up to 'cold feet' and did it anyway. I thought I was ready, but I wasn't. Does she have friends/family members who are divorced? Maybe that's what's scaring her?

Now that I'm remarried, I think my faith in marriage has been pretty much restored . . . I married the right guy this time! But, when DH asked me to marry him, I did have some reservations (as I did when I got engaged to my XH). I think I'm like your GF in that I'm very independent and I don't want to be known solely as someone's wife ~ I like having my own identity. And I think you're like my DH, in that you're the one who is bringing up the topic of marriage, when traditionally (stereotypically?) it's usually the woman in that role.

I think a lot of guys don't realize how much of an adjustment it is for a woman when she gets married. Even if you've lived together before the engagement/marriage (as I did with both my XH and DH), things are different. And it's not just her name that's (possibly) going to change. When she says 'yes' to you and puts that (gorgeous, BTW) ring on her finger, she is making a huge commitment. And she's making an even bigger commitment when she marries you. I think it's wise that you're waiting until you think she's ready before doing the proposal. Now that you have the ring, you can just hang onto it, knowing it will be there whenever the right moment comes along.

About the name change issue: Has she considered dropping her middle name, keeping her maiden name as her middle name, and taking your last name? That's what I did. To illustrate this a little better, my initials used to be EAW, but they're now EWR.

Just my thoughts on this issue . . . hope I made sense!

Emm-

Thanks so much for you comments!! We are both 26 right now, but the way it stands, we won't actually be married until we're 28. She really doesn't have any friends or relatives that have been divoriced, and neither do I. Certainly we both know people who's parents have gotten divorced, but they are in the minority by a long shot.

Its true that I am the one bringing it up, which does makes this slightly different from a more traditional relationship. That's why there is a LIW forum here and not a GIW (Gentlemen in Waiting)! I guess I didn't have much of an appreciation for the changes that a woman goes through. I never really had anybody else to talk to on this since all of my friends that did get married who I have talked to about this have just said that it wasn't a big deal and they all REALLY wanted to get married and had no seconds thoughts at all and couldn't wait to take their guy's name. I even had one friend who, no joke, sent out an email the day after she was married with her new name and a new email address to fit!

In the end, I think I'm coming to the conculsion that I just have to wait for her and there's really not much I can say or do to get her to move up her timetable, other than just be there for her and keep being supportive and keep loving her like I do!

Thanks so much for your insight here. I really appreciate it as I haven't been able to get it my friends IRL. Its so wonderful to hear about your current DH and restored faith in marriage. I hope you continue to be this happy for the rest of your life. Thanks again!

Dockman, thank you! That was very sweet, and it was nice to hear that today especially, because tomorrow is our third anniversary!

It sounds like you're getting a lot of good advice here, and it's great to see that you're taking it to heart. I'm glad you found PS, and that we've been able to help! I know it must be hard to wait, now that you have the ring, and you're excited about getting engaged. But I think your plan to wait until she's ready is a good one. Good luck to you, and let us know how things are going!

ETA: I think Katamari made some VERY good points in her post above. Talking to your GF is never a bad thing . . . talking about the issue is the first step toward resolving it. If you had been thinking about proposing at a specific time, maybe let her in on that fact and see how she reacts? Maybe she would be OK with getting engaged now, as long as your engagement would be a long one. Many couples have very long engagements for various reasons, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Stress to her that you don't even have to set a date right away . . . just BE engaged for a while before you even discuss a wedding date. Again, good luck, and keep us posted!

 

[allycat0303]

Well I was deathly afraid of getting married, and am now only moderately afraid of marriage. I think it sometimes boils down to not being ready. There was nothing my fiance could have done to make me change my mind.

I think I was mostly afraid of him holding me back from the things I wanted to do. I wanted to (and still do) want to be able to choose my career path without a man telling me, or complaining, or even having a say in (to be honest) in what I do. I never wanted to take his needs and wants into consideration when it came to my ambitions. What really helped was when I talked to him about what I wanted to do in residency, and he never once tried to influance my decision, or say "well what about our house, my job etc." it was always "You have to do what you love" and it turned out that I spent more time thinking "what about our house, and your job".

So my advice is to give it time, patience, patience and then more patience. If you now that you are spending the rest of your lives together, a year or two shouldn''t make so much of a difference.

 

[Selkie]

Wow-except for the ages (we were 35 and 42 when we got married), you could be describing me and my now-DH about 3 years ago. We''d been together for 4.5 years, we both knew that we were with the best partner we''d ever find, and I couldn''t imagine leaving him. HOWEVER-I was scared to death, to the point of anxiety attacks and going to individual counseling, of getting married. To anyone. Period. He had brought up marriage and looking for rings about a year into the relationship, but I wasn''t ready at all, and ended up telling him so. Thing was, it wasn''t a deal breaker. He was patient and understanding as he always is, and knew that this didn''t mean I didn''t love him. Gradually, I began to think more about the actual mechanics of getting married-looking at rings, making guest lists, thinking about where to do it, that kind of thing-I realized that was my way of coming to terms with the actual emotional transition of marriage. When he finally did propose for real, on our fifth anniversary, I have to admit I still was a bit scared, but my happiness outweighed the fear, and I was ready to begin planning.

You sound very much like DH-considerate, loving, and patient. All the most critical qualities for successful marriage for both partners. I''m sure she recognizes that as well. I sympathize greatly with both of you. I know how tough it is to be getting the mixed signals, but just think about how tough it is for her to change a mindset she, like I, has had since a very young age. There are two books, the Conscious Bride, and Emotionally Engaged, that helped me a lot. You might even consider reading them, since they''ll give you some additional perspective into the changes involved here. Good luck, you''re a keeper.

 

[Selkie]

Forgot to say-I had NOOOO idea he was going to propose when he did. I felt a bit blindsided. Hinting isn''t a bad idea.

 

[dockman3]

Date: 7/20/2008 12:13:05 PM
Author: katamari
Hi Dockman! I sense that you are listening to a lot of us independent women''s advice, and it seems like you are coming to peace with your issues. So, I hate to jump in with (what I think is) a different opinion when you are reaching resolution, but here it goes.

First, at Kat the social scientist. While it is nice that you are asserting how you appreciate her independence and plan to recognize it, I assume that her issues with marriage have nothing to do with your relationship. She is a woman in a world where there are clear inequalities between men and women. A lot of these are cultural and have to do with cultural expectations of gender and marriage.

For instance, if you have a traditional wedding (which it sounds like you are leaning toward with the full mass ceremony), she will have to sit at the bridal shower and open toasters and irons and be bombarded with jokes about how they are really for you to a room full of roaring laughter (because everyone knows this is ironic given gender stereotypes). She lives in a society where, regardless of whether a couple makes the decision based on gender roles or economics, women largely end up being the ones who stay at home with children because they a) are expected to or b) earn less due to gender inequality or c) have more flexible schedules (which, I know in your case is not going to be the issue, but I am talking in the general here). Or, to belabor the name issue, she lives in a world where women have to choose whether or not to take man''s names and explain why they did or didn''t to people while the man never has to explain why he didn''t consider her name. Plus, as IndyGal mentions, women do statistically do more housework and childrearing in heterosexual relationships post marriage regardless of their previous arrangements.

Knowing all of this is scary! And, the bigger issue for the two of you is that it is independent of your relationship and your feelings for one another. So, if you really are going to go to the library to read up on her insecurities (which you mentioned in an earlier post), I also suggest reading about the things you cannot change and talking about your relationship in the context of these things. I will happily make suggestions if you are interested.

Now, a word from Kat the person. Like your GF, I spent a very long time resisting marriage even though I was in a relationship with a man I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. But, I really freaked out when we moved in together. Every time I cleaned, I felt it was gendered. I would yell at my SO if I took longer to clean than he did or if I cooked for being a misogynist. Etc. It took the two of us a long time and a lot of long discussions to realize when to and when not to politicize our relationship and to identify when an issue was about gender and when it wasn''t.

I, like many women who have commented so far, thought that we had to wait to marry until I was ready (insisting I may never be ready) and I convinced my BF of this. Then, I realized this rhetoric was just as gender unequal as the institution I was fearing. Even posters here have said things like ''maybe she doesn''t want to plan a wedding yet. . .'' , ''maybe she needs time to figure x, y, and z out'' assuming that it will be here responsibility. Even assuming that the woman has to be ready for marriage implies that it is an unequally valued thing.

Of course, I think these comments are completely innocent, but they are telling. If you make the decision about when you propose about HER, it is not about THE TWO OF YOU! This is just as gendered as expecting her to take your name, stay at home with the kids, etc. Marriage should be a decision that the two of you make together. If you are wanting to propose in a month, by all means sit her down and talk to her about it and discuss YOUR lives together and YOUR relationship. Emphasize to her that this is important to you because it is about the two of you. You need to discuss gender and family issues together. As an independent gal, this is the kind of stuff I would really appreciate! And, even calling yourself a GIW shows that you are man enough (hehe) to have this kind of discussion with her about gender and family.

Again, it took me a long time to realize the importance of making relationships together, and it may just be what being an independent woman meant to me. But, when I felt like it was a mutual discussion between us where both of us had equal weight in the life we were planning together, then I finally started getting excited about being married.


Now, I need to give my fingers a nap. LOL. Sorry for the long post, but I hope it helps!

Kat-

First off, thanks so much for taking the time to write. I really appreciate it! It has occured to me that some of what she is feeling is due to society and has nothing to do with us as a couple. Its tough for her having to deal with these societal issues, and I don''t think she''s quite come to terms with those yet. But we should talk a bit more about we fit into this society and how it will affect us.

As for the personal side of things, she''s never yelled at me for not pulling my weight and like I said before, we have a great system for cooking and cleaning, so we are on the same page there. She''s been living with me for almost 2 years now and knows what I''m like. It was a big step for her to move in with me, and I appreciate that, but we got over it and are actually enjoying it very much.

As for this being about the two of us, I guess I do have to take a look at that more closely. I''ve always just been trying to make her happy, which in turn makes me happy. But maybe I should sit down and lay out exactly what I''m thinking, rather than just trying to get her to move up her timeline. That might be more effective. We''ve always tried to be equal in all of our decisions, and this one shouldn''t be any different.

Thanks for the insight and the different point. Like I''ve said before, it takes all kinds of viewpoints to see exactly where you want to go!