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What do you think about universal health care?

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ladypirate

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I''m hoping this thread will stay non-partisan, because as far as I''m concerned, the ability to get health care should transcend politics.

So what are your thoughts? Should we have universal health care? Why or why not? Have you run into problems with health insurance personally? For those in other countries, do you have socialized health care? What do you think about the system?

Personally, I hope we get it soon. I think it''s awful that private companies run health care in this country. Health care should be based on need, not whether someone can pay for it.

I ran into my own insurance nightmare when I hurt my hand and needed surgery and 6 months of occupational therapy to regain use of it. My insurance company paid for the surgery, but wouldn''t cover my hand therapy because they only covered one hand therapist in the area, and when I called to make an appointment, they told me they couldn''t see me for at least two months. They said they''d call me when they had a spot available.

My surgeon said that if I didn''t start soon, I would be left with limited mobility, so I elected to pay out of pocket for my own occupational therapy. I finally did hear back from the insurance-covered therapist...after I had already been in therapy for three and a half months, twice a week for two hours at a time. Even with all that, it took another two and a half months to regain 90-95% mobility. My therapist said that if I had waited until the other office could fit me in, I probable would never have gained back more than 60-70%.

The health system in this country is ranked 37th in the world because it''s run for profit and not for the well-being of those in our nation. Something has to change, and I hope it''s soon.
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miraclesrule

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I have been inovolved in Health Care for over 30 years, so I have gone through many different opinions and have been at some point in life, on medi-cal for a very short time (state-taxpayers), uninsured (knock on wood, the only thing that happened was that my daughter broke her nose when spotting a tumbler who accidently kicked her in the face...but that actually didn''t cost me too much), and have had several different plans through employers. HMO''s, Capitated plans, Network plans...

At one point, I felt that we could never have a Universal Health Plan because nobody actually understands the cost drivers and most people don''t care about their health, until their body fails them or they have an accident. In most other insurance...car, home, etc...you have an incentive to take care of the item being insured. Cars need routine maintenance in order to maintain a warranty. If you get moving violations, you pay a higher rate. If you have a more expensive car to replace or repair, you pay higher premiums. Same for having a high loss rate...if you crash your car all the time, insurance will cost you...BIG TIME.

At one point, I thought that the high costs of certain preventable chronic illnesses shouldn''t have to be paid by the folks who nurtured their bodies and mind like many men do their beloved cars.
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It is very complicated. And further fueling the costs, is the cost of fraud. Most people don''t even get a bill from their medical provider, so where is the check and balance of the services billed? We don''t have one anymore. Even when they had systems in place, none of the agencies even used them to protect the public money with financial assistance. This I know for a fact. It used to drive me crazy.
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I will have to think about this some more.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I don''t know the answer, either. I hear stories of people waiting for months for critical surgery in countries with socialized medicine. I think there needs to be some kind of health care for those who don''t have insurance, though. Plenty of people have no coverage at all.

What makes me crazy in the current system is the greed and excessive charges even for those with insurance. There needs to be some kind of limits on prices for services and drugs. But how to balance that out will be a task I wonder if they will ever figure out. It was big on Clinton''s agenda and they got nowhere with it in 8 years.
 

strmrdr

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I don''t know the answer.
The current US system is totally broken.
The 3 local hospitals posted record profits last year while cutting staff and reducing the level of care in some cases to dangerous levels.
I have had many battles trying to get needed health care and it has been rough.
I don''t think a government ran health system would be any better.
I am very familiar with Canada''s and in some areas it is very good and others it stinks.
Generally emergency treatment is very good and available but the treatment to prevent it becoming an emergency is lacking.
 

ksinger

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****WARNING!!! Generalized non-partisan satirical/snarky/sarcastic comment ALERT!! ****

Well, if people with no insurance would just have the decency to die when they should, especially the old ones, and not use scarce healthcare resources better spent on people who were smart enough to have a job, and furthermore, one that offers a healthcare benefit, then we wouldn't have this problem and the market would work like it's supposed to.

**** END ALERT!! ****

Clearly "the market" doesn't work when it comes to health care. AND there are entire industries that have arisen around the insurance snafu we currently have. They have a vested interest in seeing that health care does NOT become universal. There are some seriously conflicting forces in play here, and very few of them have any concern for the people they purport to help. About 5 years ago I read a stat that said 42 cents of every health care dollar went to administrative costs. I'm sure it's higher now. Something is clearly out of whack....
 

ksinger

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And on this topic this very morning at the NY Times....I didn''t know about this going on. I''ll try to keep up with the developments now that I do.

The Massachusetts Model
 

Rank Amateur

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Among the problems:

People don''t know or care how much a procedure costs. Most don''t cast a skeptical eye on whether their procedure is really necessary. Doc writes a scrpit, I get it filled no questions asked. I take a few (or none) of the pills and the remainder get thrown out or sit in a cabinet for years. I don''t care because I never paid for the Roxicet in the first place!

Healthcare workers feel entitled to be paid better than just about any other profession. Doctors consider themselves worth $2000/hr and nurses feel they deserve great pay and superior benefits. Administrators make obscene amounts of money - at a non-profit "business" no less. Everybody takes a big cut of the pie. Hospital construction is first-rate with regard to amenities and finishes.

The litigation hammer hangs over everyone''s head and too many decisions are all about making sure something is not your fault rather than purely what''s right for the patient.

Patients are weenies and want their every minor illness looked at and taken care of. Emergency rooms and your family practice doctor''s office are full of people with colds. Those same people want routine checkups covered by insurance. Get your teeth cleaned on your own dime! DOn''t expect insurance to cover routine maintenance (try to get your auto insurance to cover an oil change)!
 

ladypirate

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style="WIDTH: 99%; HEIGHT: 318px">Date: 6/16/2008 12:46:36 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
Among the problems:

People don''t know or care how much a procedure costs. Most don''t cast a skeptical eye on whether their procedure is really necessary. Doc writes a scrpit, I get it filled no questions asked. I take a few (or none) of the pills and the remainder get thrown out or sit in a cabinet for years. I don''t care because I never paid for the Roxicet in the first place!

Healthcare workers feel entitled to be paid better than just about any other profession. Doctors consider themselves worth $2000/hr and nurses feel they deserve great pay and superior benefits. Administrators make obscene amounts of money - at a non-profit ''business'' no less. Everybody takes a big cut of the pie. Hospital construction is first-rate with regard to amenities and finishes.

The litigation hammer hangs over everyone''s head and too many decisions are all about making sure something is not your fault rather than purely what''s right for the patient.

Patients are weenies and want their every minor illness looked at and taken care of. Emergency rooms and your family practice doctor''s office are full of people with colds. Those same people want routine checkups covered by insurance. Get your teeth cleaned on your own dime! DOn''t expect insurance to cover routine maintenance (try to get your auto insurance to cover an oil change)!
While far too many people go see the doctor for little things (I think our society is chronically over-medicated), that doesn''t mean that people should skip yearly checkups. A disease caught early is far less expensive to treat than a disease not caught until it has greatly worsened.

Do you think these problems only exist in the US? Is that why universal health care wouldn''t work here?
 

neatfreak

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I think *ideally* we should have it...but realistically I am not sure it would work to put it into place in the US right now...or anytime in the near future.
 

HollyS

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What I believe in is the same kind of care and attention that our parents got, for a price no more outlandish than they paid, factoring in inflation of course. In order to go back to a sane, affordable system, we would have to grab the insurance (liability, malpractice) industry by the short hairs and pull hard, while demanding some serious tort reform to reduce or eliminate frivilous lawsuits.

Unless you fix the core problem -- health care is too high because the medical companies and individual doctors pay much too much to protect themselves, which is also creating a shortfall of doctors -- you will never have health care that is widely and affordably available for everyone. Your tax dollars would be thrown down the proverbial rabbit hole with ''universal health care''. You will pay for those who cannot afford insurance, while you still pay your own premiums. No, you won''t be free from premiums. You will pay for your own and someone else''s.
 

vespergirl

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I''m an independent, so my opinion on this is my own - while socialized medicine would be great in theory for the US, it would probably not work in a country of this size, and with our social problems. In countries where socialized medicine works well (e.g. Denmark, Sweden) the countries are much smaller, with a homogeneous socialist society where everyone works and everyone pays into the system. It''s a welfare state for everyone, not just for the few. So, it''s not only people who choose to work who end up paying for everyone (like in the US) it''s everyone paying for everyone. Here, with the mess that welfare and illegal immigration have caused, it would totally bankrupt our country to pay for healthcare for everyone. I am not against immigration, because my parents are legal immigrants & naturalized citizens, but we just have too many people who do''t contribute to the system to pay for everyone to have healthcare. The countries where social programs work well don''t accept the amount of immigrants that we do, or provide lifetime welfare for the able-bodied who choose not to work, like we do. In those countries, people feel a sense of obligation towards their fellow citizens, and don''t take advantage of the social welfare system, unlike in the US, where there can be a sense of entitlement to collect from those who are more prosperous.

I''m actually socially liberal, but very capitalist in my thinking, because without capitalism, America wouldn''t be the superpower that it is. Canada instituted a universal health care system, and people there are constantly coming here to get biopsies and other surgeries. I can''t imagine being told "you might have breast cancer, but we can''t get you in for a biopsy for 3 months" which is exactly what happens there. I would rather pay for better care. It''s not a perfect system that we have by any means, and I think it could be vastly improved. In fact, I think that if our medical system was less socialized & drs. ran their own medical businesses (get rid of HMOs) it would work even better & our quality of care would improve.
 

ladypirate

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Date: 6/19/2008 12:04:58 PM
Author: vespergirl
I''m an independent, so my opinion on this is my own - while socialized medicine would be great in theory for the US, it would probably not work in a country of this size, and with our social problems. In countries where socialized medicine works well (e.g. Denmark, Sweden) the countries are much smaller, with a homogeneous socialist society where everyone works and everyone pays into the system. It''s a welfare state for everyone, not just for the few. So, it''s not only people who choose to work who end up paying for everyone (like in the US) it''s everyone paying for everyone. Here, with the mess that welfare and illegal immigration have caused, it would totally bankrupt our country to pay for healthcare for everyone. I am not against immigration, because my parents are legal immigrants & naturalized citizens, but we just have too many people who do''t contribute to the system to pay for everyone to have healthcare. The countries where social programs work well don''t accept the amount of immigrants that we do, or provide lifetime welfare for the able-bodied who choose not to work, like we do. In those countries, people feel a sense of obligation towards their fellow citizens, and don''t take advantage of the social welfare system, unlike in the US, where there can be a sense of entitlement to collect from those who are more prosperous.

I''m actually socially liberal, but very capitalist in my thinking, because without capitalism, America wouldn''t be the superpower that it is. Canada instituted a universal health care system, and people there are constantly coming here to get biopsies and other surgeries. I can''t imagine being told ''you might have breast cancer, but we can''t get you in for a biopsy for 3 months'' which is exactly what happens there. I would rather pay for better care. It''s not a perfect system that we have by any means, and I think it could be vastly improved. In fact, I think that if our medical system was less socialized & drs. ran their own medical businesses (get rid of HMOs) it would work even better & our quality of care would improve.
Getting rid of HMOs would be a huge help, but I think that''s actually a move away from capitalism. HMOs exist for a profit--IMHO, that''s the biggest problem with our system.
 

DivaDiamond007

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I go back and forth on the issue. On one hand I think it''s a shame that there are people in this country that are not getting the care that they truly need because they cannot afford it. But on the other hand I don''t think it''s fair for the country as a whole to pay for someone''s lung cancer treatments because they smoked for 30 years or something along those lines. I''m also not sure that I trust the government with my health. Look at what they''ve done with Social Security. I''ve paid into it my entire working life and will never see a dime
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. Do I want to take that same risk with my health, especially as a woman? I don''t know.

I tend to think that our country is over-medicated and that doctors push pills, push pills, push pills and other treatments that may not be entirely necessary. I think that patients need to be proactive in their health and seek second or third opinions and ask about other non-drug remedies that might be available to treat a condition. For example, if the doc tells you that you have high cholesterol and prescribes a pill to make it go down wouldn''t you want to know if there were other avenues that you could take before resorting to taking a drug - like diet modification or exercise? This line of thought may not be available for all conditions (cancer) but it would cut down on costs.

I also think that our society is way too litigation friendly. The courts need to step in and dismiss frivolous suits immediately. Patients should realize that there are risks involved with most medical procedures and, sometimes, things do go wrong no matter what the doctor/nurse/hospital does.

Personal medical issues/health insurance issues:

I was recently diagnosed with gestational diabetes and I questioned my o.b. about the diagnosis. My MIL and other family members chastised me for doing it, but that''s what the doc gets paid for. I had my test results explained to me until I was satisfied with the conclusions and have agreed that I need to seek dietary treatment. I was skeptical about the GD test to begin with and the doc knew that going into it. I think that the only reason why I was essentially forced to take it was to protect the practice from a malpractice suit should I have complications arise in the remainder of my pregnancy. I don''t know if my insurance will cover the nutritionist that I''ll have to see and I''ve paid close to $500.00 out of pocket just for the GD blood tests.

When I was young (4th or 5th grade) my father was very ill. He had some gallbladder issues and the hospital failed to take the necessary actions to make him better. As a result he developed several other issues and was in the hospital for 6 months. He experienced organ failure, developed pancreatitis (sp) and had a severe blood infection. I remember having to go to the hospital to say goodbye because it wasn''t likely that he would survive. He did, but with lifelong health issues. My parents couldn''t afford an attorney to file a suit so they paid out of pocket whatever the insurance didn''t pay. It was a lot of money that they didn''t have. Sold the cars and other personal property. Cashed in savings bonds and spent my and my sister''s college savings funds to pay the bills. Was it truly malpractice on behalf of the hospital? I don''t know. But I do know that if the gallbladder issue would have been promptly taken care of the other issues would not have happened. I''m lucky enough to still have my dad and that''s what''s important to me.

Jess
 

LAJennifer

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Date: 6/19/2008 3:38:58 PM
Author: DivaDiamond007
I go back and forth on the issue. On one hand I think it''s a shame that there are people in this country that are not getting the care that they truly need because they cannot afford it. But on the other hand I don''t think it''s fair for the country as a whole to pay for someone''s lung cancer treatments because they smoked for 30 years or something along those lines. I''m also not sure that I trust the government with my health. Look at what they''ve done with Social Security. I''ve paid into it my entire working life and will never see a dime
38.gif
. Do I want to take that same risk with my health, especially as a woman? I don''t know.

I tend to think that our country is over-medicated and that doctors push pills, push pills, push pills and other treatments that may not be entirely necessary. I think that patients need to be proactive in their health and seek second or third opinions and ask about other non-drug remedies that might be available to treat a condition. For example, if the doc tells you that you have high cholesterol and prescribes a pill to make it go down wouldn''t you want to know if there were other avenues that you could take before resorting to taking a drug - like diet modification or exercise? This line of thought may not be available for all conditions (cancer) but it would cut down on costs.

I also think that our society is way too litigation friendly. The courts need to step in and dismiss frivolous suits immediately. Patients should realize that there are risks involved with most medical procedures and, sometimes, things do go wrong no matter what the doctor/nurse/hospital does.

Personal medical issues/health insurance issues:

I was recently diagnosed with gestational diabetes and I questioned my o.b. about the diagnosis. My MIL and other family members chastised me for doing it, but that''s what the doc gets paid for. I had my test results explained to me until I was satisfied with the conclusions and have agreed that I need to seek dietary treatment. I was skeptical about the GD test to begin with and the doc knew that going into it. I think that the only reason why I was essentially forced to take it was to protect the practice from a malpractice suit should I have complications arise in the remainder of my pregnancy. I don''t know if my insurance will cover the nutritionist that I''ll have to see and I''ve paid close to $500.00 out of pocket just for the GD blood tests.

When I was young (4th or 5th grade) my father was very ill. He had some gallbladder issues and the hospital failed to take the necessary actions to make him better. As a result he developed several other issues and was in the hospital for 6 months. He experienced organ failure, developed pancreatitis (sp) and had a severe blood infection. I remember having to go to the hospital to say goodbye because it wasn''t likely that he would survive. He did, but with lifelong health issues. My parents couldn''t afford an attorney to file a suit so they paid out of pocket whatever the insurance didn''t pay. It was a lot of money that they didn''t have. Sold the cars and other personal property. Cashed in savings bonds and spent my and my sister''s college savings funds to pay the bills. Was it truly malpractice on behalf of the hospital? I don''t know. But I do know that if the gallbladder issue would have been promptly taken care of the other issues would not have happened. I''m lucky enough to still have my dad and that''s what''s important to me.

Jess
2 of the biggest problems - in my opinion.
 

VegasAngel

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If other countries can apply it why cant we? I know it''s not free but neither is what we have now. We have long waits to be seen for doctors as well.

At the very least we have to come up with a way to make healthcare more affordable. I went from having great insurance-$10 copay, $250 maybe $500 deductible never got bills in the mail to $45 co-pay $3000 deductible & only having 85% of the bill payed. I could be slightly off with the numbers. My husbands insurance only covers him if he wants to add our daughter & me it''s outrageous. My daughter & I are on Cobra which is cheaper than my husband would pay through his employer; Cobra isnt cheap what does that tell you?

I tried to apply for private insurance for my daughter after she was born & was denied because she had acid reflux-that is unacceptable. A friend of mine was denied private insurance because she had acne, she was declined because she had PIMPLES that is insane. How many private insurances offer maternity coverage? very hard to come by.
 

joflier

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Our healthcare system is definately a troubled one....but at the same time, is universal care the answer? I''ve worked in healthcare for 5 years, and at this point, all that comes to mind is that people that are pro-universal care, should spend some time in a VA hospital/facility. VA care is notorious for being below the standards that we expect and deserve. Many of the facilities are understaffed, the technology often outdated, and many of the buildings are aging. I''m sure this is not the case everywhere, but just from my own personal experience and that of coworkers/friends.

And when it comes to technology, there is a never ending discovery process in the world of medicine. Is our government capable (or willing) to dole out the money it takes to keep up with techology in enough places throughout the country to fairly accomodate the needs and well being of 300 million people?
 

LitigatorChick

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I''m Canadian and have lived here my entire life, so I can''t compare the 2 systems. But I do know that if I am sick, I go to the doctor and get care. My treatment is prioritized not by my pocket book, but by my need. I know the system is not perfect, but my encounters with the system in the past 2 years (having a baby and getting treatment for cervical cancer) have been excellent. And most importantly, I can focus on my health and not on my financial situation.

I''m not sure about the argument that people neglect their health if there is universal health care - the reverse isn''t true, as the States has an epedemic of obesity and other health problems.
 

Fancy605

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Date: 6/19/2008 12:04:58 PM
Author: vespergirl
while socialized medicine would be great in theory for the US, it would probably not work in a country of this size, and with our social problems. In countries where socialized medicine works well (e.g. Denmark, Sweden) the countries are much smaller, with a homogeneous socialist society where everyone works and everyone pays into the system. It''s a welfare state for everyone, not just for the few. So, it''s not only people who choose to work who end up paying for everyone (like in the US) it''s everyone paying for everyone. Here, with the mess that welfare and illegal immigration have caused, it would totally bankrupt our country to pay for healthcare for everyone. I am not against immigration, because my parents are legal immigrants & naturalized citizens, but we just have too many people who do''t contribute to the system to pay for everyone to have healthcare. The countries where social programs work well don''t accept the amount of immigrants that we do, or provide lifetime welfare for the able-bodied who choose not to work, like we do. In those countries, people feel a sense of obligation towards their fellow citizens, and don''t take advantage of the social welfare system, unlike in the US, where there can be a sense of entitlement to collect from those who are more prosperous.

I couldn''t have said that better myself. Universal health care sounds like SUCH a good idea. But the way we do things here sort of makes it a VERY difficult possibility.
 

LitigatorChick

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I guess being raised in Canada has skewed my perspective. I don''t have a problem "subsidizing" the care of sick people. Just believe looking after people''s health is the responsibility of the community, and it shouldn''t be a function of your economic status in life.
 

LitigatorChick

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Date: 6/26/2008 8:40:44 AM
Author: tradergirl
Canadian Health System in Ruins (says its architect)

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=299282509335931
I''d question this article. Touting Castonguay as the "architect" sounds a little off from my recollection of Canadian history - wiki Tommy Douglas. Further, check out the book this author is pushing.

I''d never say the Canadian system is perfect - none is. But the central purpose that all Canadians have access, on a pre-paid basis, to necessary health care sounds important to me. And again, my own experiences in the health care system, along with those of friends and family, have indicated to me that it works.
 

elle_chris

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Warning, long winded rant ahead:

I don’t agree with the idea of a Universal healthcare system. Not because it doesn’t sound good in theory, it does. But because I don’t believe that an exceptional high level of care can be given to everyone without bankrupting a country or taxing people 60-70%.

Even in countries with these systems in place(not sure if all though), I know that people still have an option to buy private insurance because their healthcare system poses its own problems. The waits to see a doctor or have a procedure done are two of those issues.


I also tend to agree with those that say, here in the states, we’re just not ready for it.


When people start taking personal responsibility for their own health, meaning less McDonalds more fruit and vegetables combined with exercise, we’ll start moving in the right direction.


When my tax dollars start to fund those that truly need care, and not those that choose not to work because it’s so easy to get around the system.


When generation after generation of women stop having children in their teens and living off the system because they have no education/skills to support themselves or their families, I’ll help. Meanwhile, I’ll pay for these women to get skills/finish school, learn parenting skills so as to break these cycles.


When we stop going to the doctors/emergency rooms for every bruise, cold we have and then request every freaking type of test there is because we think we’re “entitled to it”.


When these same people stop suing their health care providers for every little idiotic thing.


When malpractice insurance rates aren’t higher than 95% of most peoples annual income because physicians are being sued for “every little idiotic thing”


Also, you need to keep in mind that low income households already have insurance. It’s called state Medicaid. While it’s not the best insurance in the world, it does cover pretty much everything.


It’s the middle class that suffers the most in this country. They may or may not have insurance from their employer, but if they don’t, they have to pay out of pocket since their income doesn’t allow them to get any type of state help. Since health insurance is so expensive here, they may not afford it.
They’re the group that we need to help immediately.

As far as the cost of medications goes, one of the reasons is because of drug patents. When a pharmaceutical company develps a new drug, they''re allowed i think a seven year patent on it (maybe 5?) and no other company is allowed to make the generic version of the drug in that time. It is a problem. The companies argue that it''s expensive to develop these medications and hence the patent. Unfortunately, this gets passed on to the consumer.
Is there a better way of doing this? I don''t know. But the way it stands today, some may argue that many of the life saving drugs on the market currently, wouldn''t be here if it wasn''t for these patents.
 

kbarro1

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Date: 6/16/2008 12:46:36 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
Among the problems:

People don't know or care how much a procedure costs. Most don't cast a skeptical eye on whether their procedure is really necessary. Doc writes a scrpit, I get it filled no questions asked. I take a few (or none) of the pills and the remainder get thrown out or sit in a cabinet for years. I don't care because I never paid for the Roxicet in the first place!

Healthcare workers feel entitled to be paid better than just about any other profession. Doctors consider themselves worth $2000/hr and nurses feel they deserve great pay and superior benefits. Administrators make obscene amounts of money - at a non-profit 'business' no less. Everybody takes a big cut of the pie. Hospital construction is first-rate with regard to amenities and finishes.

The litigation hammer hangs over everyone's head and too many decisions are all about making sure something is not your fault rather than purely what's right for the patient.

Patients are weenies and want their every minor illness looked at and taken care of. Emergency rooms and your family practice doctor's office are full of people with colds. Those same people want routine checkups covered by insurance. Get your teeth cleaned on your own dime! DOn't expect insurance to cover routine maintenance (try to get your auto insurance to cover an oil change)!
Okay, I wasn't going to reply to this post, but just can't resist with my blatent disbelief of what I just read.

First off, it is an individuals responsibility to take proactive action in their healthcare and while I know everyone out there has a different educational level and that health literacy varies widely, it is up to an individual to ask questions, ask questions, ask questions!!!!! Shame on anyone who "gets a prescription filled no questions asked" just b/c a Dr. wrote it for you.

Second, yeah, there are some Dr.'s out there who make and obscene amount of money, but that is not the case for everyone. Do you realize that lost of people out there make more than Family Practice physicians make? And Pediatricians? They are the lowest paid and take care of ALL of our children!!!! Work long hours, take call, see hospitalized patients, etc. And who says that the nurses who run around for 12-16 hour shifts to make sure YOU get the comfortable care you deserve in a hospital setting?!?!?! YES, they deserve good benefits and good pay. They went to college and got an education just like everyone else out there who is making a good living and deserve to be paid back for that. Now, about SUPERIOR BENFITS, I don't believe that all nurses out there are getting superior benefits. Their insurance varies as widely as the all of the insurance policies of the people on the city bus this morning. Just b/c you are upset with the healthcare system, don't put down the people who work VERY HARD without little thanks to make sure that healthcare system is still running in the morning.

And on to the making sure you make sure things are not your fault rather than actually treating a patient. I will agree that some physicians are scared of being blamed or sued, but WHO CAN BLAME THEM????? Now, I don't think medicine should be geared toward "treating to defer lawsuits", but I do believe that people are lawsuit crazy these days and with people like that actually winning the frivilous lawsuits they are filing, it is scary. If you went to your job everyday and risked being sued by every person you came in contact with each day, wouldn't you think twice about how you do your job????

Finally, about the "patients are weenies" statement.... I don't even know how to respond to this... Yes, I agree that the ER's are packed with patients that probably can get care in a PCP's office, but that does not mean that they don't deserve to be seen by a physician. Also, routing care should be on your own dime?!?!?!? I can't even fathom where that thought came from!!!! Comparing the human body to a machine that was manufactured by a computer?? An oil change??? Ridiculous! Don't you realize that the reason you perform routine care is to detect and prevent illnesses that would cost our healthcare system billions more if patients waited to seek treatment until they actually had symptoms! It is MUCH cheaper to provide routine care for everyone!

I am sorry for being so outright with this, I am usually much more subdued, but I am passionate about healthcare as it is my profession and I believe there needs to be much more research done on you part before you make statements like these! The whole reason why people pay insurance premiums is to receive care! What is the point otherwise? That you can only actually go to the Dr when you are on your deathbed?

I am not agreeing with our current healthcare system as I too believe that it needs a total rehaul of it's hierarchy, but do not agree that patients are the problem. Sorry again for the rant, but I couldn't believe what I read!
 

joflier

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
3,504
Date: 6/16/2008 12:46:36 PM
Author: Rank Amateur
Among the problems:

People don''t know or care how much a procedure costs. Most don''t cast a skeptical eye on whether their procedure is really necessary. Doc writes a scrpit, I get it filled no questions asked. I take a few (or none) of the pills and the remainder get thrown out or sit in a cabinet for years. I don''t care because I never paid for the Roxicet in the first place!

Healthcare workers feel entitled to be paid better than just about any other profession. Doctors consider themselves worth $2000/hr and nurses feel they deserve great pay and superior benefits. Administrators make obscene amounts of money - at a non-profit ''business'' no less. Everybody takes a big cut of the pie. Hospital construction is first-rate with regard to amenities and finishes.

The litigation hammer hangs over everyone''s head and too many decisions are all about making sure something is not your fault rather than purely what''s right for the patient.

Patients are weenies and want their every minor illness looked at and taken care of. Emergency rooms and your family practice doctor''s office are full of people with colds. Those same people want routine checkups covered by insurance. Get your teeth cleaned on your own dime! DOn''t expect insurance to cover routine maintenance (try to get your auto insurance to cover an oil change)!
I think everyone has to become more pro-active about their health. Prevention is something that hasn''t been pushed on us much until recent years. Its always been the philsophy to go to the doctor/dentist only when your very ill/in pain, which in so many cases was preventable to start with. With that being said, prevention is a huge money saver, be it regular checkups, teeth cleanings, etc. Often times, f there is a problem and its caught early on, the treatment that is done is much less intensive and less costly.
On the flip side, there are a great number of people that take "regular checkups" to an extreme, and who seem to have issues bordering on hypochondria. I work in an urgent care facility, and some of the "urgent" stuff people come in for is almost laughable. They demand meds for a virus, or xrays for a muscle sprain, etc.....That''s the kind of stuff that boosts cost issues. Well, that and malpractice, but I''m not going to even stand up on that soapbox.
 

lyra

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
5,249
I live in Canada. I fully support universal healthcare. If we didn't have it, our family would be bankrupt right now. Between the 4 of us (all but 1 have had major issues at some point), we've racked up all kinds of CT's, MRI's, surgeries, hospital stays and seen so many different specialists I can't begin to count. I think at any given time I have 6 doctors and specialists looking after just my health issues alone. My husband nearly died from internal bleeding which required both emergency surgery and 7 days in ICU with a very low possiblity of recovery. His healthcare was in no way substandard. I received top care during my 2 one week hospital stays, one for pancreatitis, one for ovarian rupture. All of this was 100% free.

The waits you hear of are often exaggerated. Examples: my daughter currently is waiting 4-6 weeks for an MRI after having a migraine with disturbing visual sypmtoms. My mom received MRI's almost weekly when she had cancer. So yes, there is a "triage" system in place. The sickest go first. I have no problem with that.

ETA: since I am a diabetic, I get free access to certain specialists and services that are actually not covered under our healthcare. For instance, there is an $80 fee for an optometrist appt. and it can only be done every 2 years for regular people. I can go as often as I need to, and actually also see an opthamologist annually for free as well.

What the US will *not* accept is our high level of taxation. Nor will the insurers ever give up their steady income. Universal healthcare like we have in Canada would never work in the US today. IMO of course.
 

elle_chris

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Messages
3,504
Date: 6/26/2008 8:18:19 PM
Author: lyra

What the US will *not* accept is our high level of taxation. Nor will the insurers ever give up their steady income. Universal healthcare like we have in Canada would never work in the US today. IMO of course.
First, I''d like to say and I''m very sorry to hear about you and your families health problems. We''ve had our share as well and i understand how expensive it could be without insurance.

But I also need to say- the services you get for free but pay taxes for, we just pay and don''t call them taxes. In the end- the healthcare, education and other services you get for your tax dollars cost no more than what we pay for those same services.

I also just checked your federal tax rates for 2008. It seems that those with an income 123k and above pay 29% in federal income tax, we go up to 35% I believe. Unless I missed somethng and Canada has a progressive tax?
 

Eva17

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2006
Messages
1,017
don''t want it....
 

lyra

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
5,249
Date: 6/26/2008 9:12:35 PM
Author: elle_chris

Date: 6/26/2008 8:18:19 PM
Author: lyra

What the US will *not* accept is our high level of taxation. Nor will the insurers ever give up their steady income. Universal healthcare like we have in Canada would never work in the US today. IMO of course.
First, I''d like to say and I''m very sorry to hear about you and your families health problems. We''ve had our share as well and i understand how expensive it could be without insurance.

But I also need to say- the services you get for free but pay taxes for, we just pay and don''t call them taxes. In the end- the healthcare, education and other services you get for your tax dollars cost no more than what we pay for those same services.

I also just checked your federal tax rates for 2008. It seems that those with an income 123k and above pay 29% in federal income tax, we go up to 35% I believe. Unless I missed somethng and Canada has a progressive tax?
We don''t have a flat tax rate, which is something I''d be all for. On top of income tax, everything we buy is taxed with GST (6%) plus PST (8% for my province). You pay a percentage of sales tax when you buy a home (thousands), a car (variable). We have higher tax on fuels. We have far fewer tax benefits or write-offs. No mortgage interest write-off or anything like that. The basic claim for dependents is very small and almost does not affect our personal income tax reduction *at all*. We personally have very few tax deductions of any kind because of our income level (and we''re certainly not wealthy and are a single income family).

My husband gets a bonus every year that is more heavily taxed (closer to 50%), that we must invest in gov''t registered savings or we''d lose even more of that to taxes. So the taxes kill us, really. Still and all, I''d rather subsidize our universal healthcare since my first concern is that even those on the border of povery are covered. Obviously there are programs for the very poor in the US too, but there are many working poor in both countries, many single parent households, etc. I grew up in the atmosphere that we are all basically equal and deserve equal social programs. One thing we don''t ever have to worry about is that when we are retired, we will still be 100% covered on medical expenses. My friend in the US had her parents lose everything when her father became ill immediately after he retired. They have nothing now. I''d sure hate to live my life with that fear hanging over me.
 
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