Obama''s Speech....

[diamondfan]

Moon, I do not at all doubt your intelligence or your passion, but saying take a course in African American studies is downright offensive and presumes that some of us white people are ignorant about the history. Knowing the history, which is terrible and unjust and criminal, is still not knowing it via experience, and therefore, as much compassion as I feel, and anger, I have somewhat a limited credibility. I will never know what it was like or is still like to be a non White person. I can make assumptions, and I might even be right, but really, all I can do is feel that terrible things were done and continue, sadly, to be done. And feel outrage that people behave like this towards their fellow man. But even the most informed White person could be told, You will never know what it is like to be treated in such a manner due to the color of your skin. Now, there is religious discrimination, discrimination due to one''s sexual orientation, maltreatment due to socioeconomic status or intelligence, there are many many poor White children who are not being educated or fed or receiving the most basic medical care...in many towns across America.

I might also ask if you have taken any Jewish studies courses, Holocaust courses or the like? I would not presume that you have or have not, but I just ask the question.

I get your point somewhat, but just because I chose not to personally have a line item discourse it should not invalidate my views NOR should it lead to sanctions, judgments or derision. Bottom line, when I said I had researched all the data and that this was where I landed, thank you, it should be enough. How do you know, why would you assume, what I have seen or heard? I should not be told to do more and more and more; to what end? No one can ever know all of what one candidate thinks or has spoken or done...I got the gist and it was more than enough for me. THAT is when I got irked, because I have the right not to have to justify myself, if I say, Look, I feel I have seen and heard what I need to, I would think, reasonably, that it would be enough. That is where the respect comes in.

 

[diamondfan]

Ephemery, I would debate hubby on that any day. You want to be equitable and I applaud that. I learned, at the old age of 42, that I could battle and berate and jump up and down til I was blue, but in the end, what was clear and sensible to me might not be for someone else, and that did not make me right and them wrong. There are many shades of grey in the world, few things are so cut and dried as to be a foregone conclusion. And while I might think you make sense and have given a lot of thought to your position (the general you), I might still believe what I believe. This being a free country, though, I will pretty much defend your right to think what you like, as long as it is not illegal or immoral, because I want the right to form my own conclusions too. The sword cuts both ways. Simply because you do not agree with me it does follow that your are ignorant or are not well informed. You might be, but I guess at the end of the day, it is not my place to change you. Sad to say there ARE some poorly intentioned ill informed people who are of age and go to the voting booth. Part of living with all types of people. But mostly, I think we collectively are bright and hope we all are coming from the right place, we love America and know it has flaws we would like to correct, but are proud to be here.
We might not all agree on how to get it done, but...our goals are in sync.

I would love to have a Philly and surroundings get together...maybe out here in the Main Line if that works, since it might be central to all, or somewhere great downtown as the weather gets nicer! The Square is great on a pretty spring day!

 

[LAJennifer]

An opinion from a Canadian: http://www.macleans.ca/canada/opinions/article.jsp?content=20080402_58057_58057

 

[LAJennifer]

"The Wit & Wisdom of Barack Obama," by Andrew Ferguson :

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/887jicyo.asp

 

[diamondfan]

LA Jen, those are both excellent!

I got an email today from someone in Canada who was talking about their healthcare system and how it is being touted as a great system for the US. And this article I was sent debunks the whole theory of it, not sure how much is true, but it is a very interesting look at the grass being greener where healthcare is concerned.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/3/2008 10:19:50 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/3/2008 8:11:36 PM
Author: fisherofmengirly

I''m not upset. I will quote the post I''m responding to as I always do. I''m familiar with people opting to make attempts at personal attacks when someone doesn''t agree with their views. It doesn''t detract from the topic at hand, however. I don''t play that way, but to each his (or her) own.

Who are you referring to? I simply pointed out that you have quoted yourself and asked if you were having issues with using the quote/edit function. I also notice that you will quote the same post multiple times, highlighting different portions in order to respond to each portion. It''s unnecessary as you can consolidate it all into one post. If you consider that a personal attack, you''re quite sensitive.

Yeah, Paul pointed out that I was doing that (the multiple posts for response to one post, but different portions of it) and I''d not really thought of it as wasting time because it was helping me to break it down. Anyway, I stopped doing it that way because I realized it was taking up a lot of room.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Perhaps I posted in the incorrect thread then if the whole point of the thread was to discuss one particular speech. I think by the time I came across it, it had already moved to more than just that one topic, however.

The reason I posted to begin with was to see why it is that people (particularly, those here on this thread) were in support of Obama, because I''ve not found a solid platform in my own searching out the candidates for this particular person. Hearing continually about "change" is very appealing with the country in the current state it''s in. So, in attempt to know what that "change" is, I was hoping to learn about his plans for it. The only person who responded to that was Moonwater, and the only three topics I saw involved Obama''s plans to create a more "transparent government" for better accountability, restoring Habeas Corpus, and putting a stop (or at least trying) to the influence of special interest groups.

Understandibly, many people take their right to vote, to play a part (if even a small part, thanks to delegates) in the choosing of the government that will lead them, seriously and passionately. That is precisely why I came here, to find out why people support him.

When asked why I do not, I stated clearly and concisely why I do not. Assumptions and determinations have been made regarding what "wing" I may cling to, and as to who I may prefer as the president, and there have also been assumptions made regarding the depth of history and knowledge I have regarding various ethnicities and races living in this country. I think without a doubt that Obama has positive attributes that could help this country, and he''s definitely got a ton of charisma, which is very appealing. I simply choose to look beyond that and was hoping to find out more about his platform for the change for which he is promising if he becomes president.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/3/2008 11:42:50 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS
This probably won''t sound very articulate, so I am sorry ahead of time. I''ve tried to make myself avoid this thread, but I can''t stop reading it anyway. I guess I just end up feeling confused because I can''t ever understand what it feels like to be a non-white person in America. When I look around, I see class issues and not race issues. I guess that''s a product of people I came in contact with growing up and living in a middle class area. The people I knew without money were both white and black. I knew equal numbers of both. There are more minorities in poverty as far as I know (I believe statistics show that so no need to link me to articles or statistics), but I just look at all of poverty and not color.

I think African-American kids in inner city schools with poor educations are just as abandoned by the system as rural white kids with poor educations. I guess I look at things as we need to help people in the lower financial classes of society, not just we need to help a certain race. But, that''s just me.


ETA: I am sorry if I offend anyone, starting to regret posting haha, but I won''t remove it that''d probably be rude.

It is a class issue. I believe it was movie zombie who said we need to get the race part out of the way so we can focus on the real problem which is class. The part that people don''t understand is that statistically, more non-white people are in poverty with access to poor educations. In the case with black people, it has to do with past discrimination which gave white people ahead start in the game. But of course, people of the day, that feel as if they have nothing to do with the past, do not understand why programs were created to help black people catch up. The criminal justice system is another problem that no one really talks about. The way the laws are on the books now, a black person has a much higher chance of going to jail than a white person. Example: higher penalties for crack possession (a poor drug more likely to be found in black neighborhoods) than for cocaine possession (more likely to be found among white, even wealthy white neighborhoods).

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 12:04:29 AM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 4/3/2008 11:06:20 PM

Author: MoonWater


LOL you can''t speak for me? Hell, I''m about to make you my spokeswoman. Thanks for understanding. Makes me feel like I''m not as inarticulate as I''m beginning to think I am.

Haha... I HAVE been considering a career change....

I do understand... we''re obviously different people (you get things done, I don''t... I''ve had the same to-do list running for about 2 weeks now, any tips?), but as I said, your style jumped out at me immediately, because it made sense to me even when it wasn''t making sense to other people. I do think we are (or at least, I am) probably in the minority with some of our communication preferences, and what''s stimulating for us is sometimes offputting for others. I like that insatiable, ''must talk more/learn more/understand more'' part of me, but I have to admit it''s exhausting at times. Although when DH affectionately tells me I''m tough to live with, I like to point out it''s even tougher living INSIDE this head of mine!

Well one thing that turns me off is when people constantly get defensive without answering a single question. At that point I give up because the conversation goes no where.

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Date: 4/4/2008 8:46:19 AM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/4/2008 12:04:29 AM
Author: ephemery1

Date: 4/3/2008 11:06:20 PM

Author: MoonWater


LOL you can''t speak for me? Hell, I''m about to make you my spokeswoman. Thanks for understanding. Makes me feel like I''m not as inarticulate as I''m beginning to think I am.

Haha... I HAVE been considering a career change....

I do understand... we''re obviously different people (you get things done, I don''t... I''ve had the same to-do list running for about 2 weeks now, any tips?), but as I said, your style jumped out at me immediately, because it made sense to me even when it wasn''t making sense to other people. I do think we are (or at least, I am) probably in the minority with some of our communication preferences, and what''s stimulating for us is sometimes offputting for others. I like that insatiable, ''must talk more/learn more/understand more'' part of me, but I have to admit it''s exhausting at times. Although when DH affectionately tells me I''m tough to live with, I like to point out it''s even tougher living INSIDE this head of mine!

Well one thing that turns me off is when people constantly get defensive without answering a single question. At that point I give up because the conversation goes no where.

If this is in reference to me, I have not become defensive. I''ve said nothing negative about anyone here, and any question asked of me I have responded to.

Anyway, I thank you for sharing your reasonings and beliefs regarding Obama. It has provided a touch of information regarding the man who believes he can bring the country change.

Paul and I are off for a weekend trip now. Hope everyone has a good weekend, and enjoy the discussion!

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 12:10:21 AM
Author: diamondfan
Moon, I do not at all doubt your intelligence or your passion, but saying take a course in African American studies is downright offensive and presumes that some of us white people are ignorant about the history. Knowing the history, which is terrible and unjust and criminal, is still not knowing it via experience, and therefore, as much compassion as I feel, and anger, I have somewhat a limited credibility. I will never know what it was like or is still like to be a non White person. I can make assumptions, and I might even be right, but really, all I can do is feel that terrible things were done and continue, sadly, to be done. And feel outrage that people behave like this towards their fellow man. But even the most informed White person could be told, You will never know what it is like to be treated in such a manner due to the color of your skin. Now, there is religious discrimination, discrimination due to one's sexual orientation, maltreatment due to socioeconomic status or intelligence, there are many many poor White children who are not being educated or fed or receiving the most basic medical care...in many towns across America.

Why is it offensive to you? And I'm sure you will take offense to this, and I apologize in advance, but I think you are overly sensitive. I'm not sure why that is. You felt the need to tell me all about your education, post countless times that you aren't racist, or a bigot and well...no one ever accused you of being stupid or any of the other things you named. I don't get it.

And you are right, my comment does presume that "some of you white folks are ignorant about history," it's true! About black history. Even I wasn't taught it properly in school, I had to find my own books and seek classes in college on my own to learn more. I do not believe that generally, people seek out information that they believe has nothing to do with them (unless it's something fun or interesting, not dense, complicated, and hard). I suggested people seek those classes for better understanding since I obviously wasn't doing a good job (hell I was just told I didn't explain anything

). I have found when people do this, (and I know a white woman that read a lot of black feminist works and she totally understands the Obama/Wright situation, and a white guy who's been taking A-A classes and classes about female black history and he also understands), there is less defensiveness going on and a true discussion occurs. I figured an academic environment is better. It's more objective and hopefully people are more inclined to simply listen and not assume everything is an attack on them. Also, I don't think you need to be black to understand. I think reading books and seeing documentaries about specific events as they happened makes it a lot easier to understand how someone could be angry and resentful. The point isn't to condemn, it's to understand and help that person to let go of that anger and resentment. Or at least that's the point for me.

I might also ask if you have taken any Jewish studies courses, Holocaust courses or the like? I would not presume that you have or have not, but I just ask the question.

In high school I decided to do a paper on the major monotheisms and threw in Buddhism as well. I had a theory that most religions actually said pretty much the same thing and thus there was no need for wars or any other fighting over their differences. I came to the conclusion that I was right. I learned a lot about Judaism in that process. I then went on to take a world history class which also taught me about Judaism. This past year I got to learn more about Hanukkah when a Jewish co-worker allowed me to help her light the menorah every night. I was lucky enough to cater two Jewish weddings (one extremely traditional, the other more laid back) which prompt me to ask questions about different parts of the ceremony process. I've also catered several bar mitzvahs and got to learn more then when I decided to ask questions. In the Fall I've decided to take a 6 credit course that covers religion more thoroughly. My FF is a history buff and he has taught me countless things about Jewish culture. I see nearly a new Holocaust documentary on PBS ever year (one was on this past year which I think was far more detailed than I had ever seen) and it is not hard for me to understand that experience at all because I very much felt how it related to the times of slavery. But I also feel like, as a black person, I'm in the minority when seeking this information.

But then again most black people don't fully know their own history. Until recently, I didn't know that it was a community event to lynch a slave and/or burn his body. They would cut the body parts up and pass it around to everyone. People had food like it was a picnic. Children around playing. It was real community fun. And that was only the beginning. What I gather from what I've learned of Jewish culture is that you are much more likely to stick together as a community than black people are, though we have shared similar struggles. Part of the reason for this, I believe, is that our strife occurred in this very country which STILL discriminates against us. Which has broken down our self esteem so much that we attack each other and we don't try to help ourselves. That is something I do not believe white people in general understand. I had an old Republican white guy walk up to me (he saw my Obama sticker, very nice guy actually) and one of the questions he asked is, "Why is it when black kids try to learn they're called Uncle Toms or accused of trying to be white." It wasn't enough time in the day to explain that. That's why I suggested courses.

I get your point somewhat, but just because I chose not to personally have a line item discourse it should not invalidate my views NOR should it lead to sanctions, judgments or derision. Bottom line, when I said I had researched all the data and that this was where I landed, thank you, it should be enough. How do you know, why would you assume, what I have seen or heard? I should not be told to do more and more and more; to what end? No one can ever know all of what one candidate thinks or has spoken or done...I got the gist and it was more than enough for me. THAT is when I got irked, because I have the right not to have to justify myself, if I say, Look, I feel I have seen and heard what I need to, I would think, reasonably, that it would be enough. That is where the respect comes in.

And this is what irked me. I don't like when people make statements about a person (and before you said you believed Obama was anti-Israel or something to this nature) and can not back it up. I asked you what made you believe that because perhaps it would be something that bothered me. I believe I asked you that 2 or 3 times and each time you ignored me. If you give a person an opportunity to offer up why they have formed an opinion and they ignore you, you can only work off of your assumptions. I make it a point to put as many assumptions behind me by asking questions. Again, I'm not even sure where you are getting this, but I am not trying to "invalidate" your views or have it "lead to sanctions, judgments or derision." I asked you to express them fully so I could understand where you were coming from.

Suppose I said to you, I don't like *insert Pricescope vendor here* because I think their customer service is crap. Wouldn't you want to know what experience I had that made me come to this conclusion?

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 9:09:34 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly

Date: 4/4/2008 8:46:19 AM

Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/4/2008 12:04:29 AM

Author: ephemery1

Date: 4/3/2008 11:06:20 PM


Author: MoonWater



LOL you can''t speak for me? Hell, I''m about to make you my spokeswoman. Thanks for understanding. Makes me feel like I''m not as inarticulate as I''m beginning to think I am.

Haha... I HAVE been considering a career change....

I do understand... we''re obviously different people (you get things done, I don''t... I''ve had the same to-do list running for about 2 weeks now, any tips?), but as I said, your style jumped out at me immediately, because it made sense to me even when it wasn''t making sense to other people. I do think we are (or at least, I am) probably in the minority with some of our communication preferences, and what''s stimulating for us is sometimes offputting for others. I like that insatiable, ''must talk more/learn more/understand more'' part of me, but I have to admit it''s exhausting at times. Although when DH affectionately tells me I''m tough to live with, I like to point out it''s even tougher living INSIDE this head of mine!

Well one thing that turns me off is when people constantly get defensive without answering a single question. At that point I give up because the conversation goes no where.

If this is in reference to me, I have not become defensive. I''ve said nothing negative about anyone here, and any question asked of me I have responded to.


Anyway, I thank you for sharing your reasonings and beliefs regarding Obama. It has provided a touch of information regarding the man who believes he can bring the country change.


Paul and I are off for a weekend trip now. Hope everyone has a good weekend, and enjoy the discussion!

Nope, not directed at you. Have fun on your trip!

 

[diamondfan]

Well, Moon, first, I DID say why I found it offensive, in the next sentence. It is the presumption that I am not educated about the facts or history, and that somehow I am ignorant and insensitive because of it. Again, I do not know who knows what in this world. But I would NOT get on a high horse and start telling people that.

Two, I DID say some of the reasons why I thought he was not going to be good for Isreal, REVEREND WRIGHT. LOUIS FARRAKAN. JESSE JACKSON. His assocations with those men and others bother me. If you want more reasons, one of his top advisors (military) and national campaign chairman, General Merril McPeak, has made blatantly anti Isreal statements. Obama once again tried to do damage control, but he is still in place in Obama''s organization.

I also told you that many many friends, both more religious than I and democrats, do not like Obama in terms of Israel and the people he will likely put in high sensitive positions such as military and foreign policy.

I guess I do not know what is missing or how that is unclear. I have nothing further to add, it would just be redundant. And most pro Obama people I know all say that anything unflattering is untrue or misleading or was misquoted and or misrepresented, so I just thought it was silly to keep debating. These are my feelings about him, based on intuitions, facts, letters from Jewish publications both in the US and Israel...if someone wants to say that is all false etc, so be it.

I also feel that you have elected yourself the arbiter, demanding more and more justification because you are not satisfied with the answers. Once I felt I had said enough, you got snippy. And made assumptions and insinuations about my knowledge base and data gathering. I found that offensive as you do not know me in real life nor do you know my background. And you continually seemed to be very indignant about other people''s views if they were not in sync with yours. I did not IGNORE, I just felt I had said all I could and why was I being called upon to say more?

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/3/2008 12:54:18 AM
Author: fisherofmengirly

If you agree that it does matter as to whom a leader calls upon as a comrade, then I wonder why you ask how I would deduce that Obama doesn''t stand for the America that I love. Okay, firstly, the man seems to have an issue with the country''s flag, which is random, I admit, but still doesn''t sit well with me when choosing the main leader of this country. When asked about this, he stated that his patriotism is shown by telling Americans what he thinks will make this country great. Um, okay. That''s a profound statement. So, what does he think will make this country great?

Just wanted to ask why you think Obama has a problem with the flag? Because he didn''t salute during the National Anthem?

Perhaps it''s just me, but I was always taught that while you do salute the flag during the Pledge of Allegiance, there is not requirement to salute while listening to our National Anthem. It wasn''t like he was trying to burn it down--he was looking at the flag and listening respectfully. I think that trying to claim he''s not patriotic based on that is a bit ludicrous.

Sorry if I got a bit up in arms over that--it''s just one of the things about this election that has really gotten my goat.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 10:00:05 AM
Author: diamondfan
Well, Moon, first, I DID say why I found it offensive, in the next sentence. It is the presumption that I am not educated about the facts or history, and that somehow I am ignorant and insensitive because of it. Again, I do not know who knows what in this world. But I would NOT get on a high horse and start telling people that.

Two, I DID say some of the reasons why I thought he was not going to be good for Isreal, REVEREND WRIGHT. LOUIS FARRAKAN. JESSE JACKSON. His assocations with those men and others bother me. If you want more reasons, one of his top advisors (military) and national campaign chairman, General Merril McPeak, has made blatantly anti Isreal statements. Obama once again tried to do damage control, but he is still in place in Obama's organization.

I also told you that many many friends, both more religious than I and democrats, do not like Obama in terms of Israel and the people he will likely put in high sensitive positions such as military and foreign policy.

I guess I do not know what is missing or how that is unclear. I have nothing further to add, it would just be redundant. And most pro Obama people I know all say that anything unflattering is untrue or misleading or was misquoted and or misrepresented, so I just thought it was silly to keep debating. These are my feelings about him, based on intuitions, facts, letters from Jewish publications both in the US and Israel...if someone wants to say that is all false etc, so be it.

I also feel that you have elected yourself the arbiter, demanding more and more justification because you are not satisfied with the answers. Once I felt I had said enough, you got snippy. And made assumptions and insinuations about my knowledge base and data gathering. I found that offensive as you do not know me in real life nor do you know my background. And you continually seemed to be very indignant about other people's views if they were not in sync with yours. I did not IGNORE, I just felt I had said all I could and why was I being called upon to say more?

This is precisely why I didn't want to talk to you about this subject anymore in this thread. Once again you go completely on the defense and defend yourself against things I never even said about you. But, me saying I wouldn't talk to you about this in this thread again, STILL insulted you, so really, I give up this is the last time because it's beyond annoying.

Surfgirl was the first person to asked what it was about Obama that worried you as a Jewish person, your only response was this: "He has made statements about things that, if he were to follow through as President, would likely jeopardize Israel." Then you made a comment about Bush being our most pro-Israel president (but you know what, he still thinks all Jews are going to hell, did you read about that??), and a comment about Farrakhan being a part of the same congregation and some comments about Wright. I corrected you on Farrakhan, and asked for you to be specific about what worried you about Obama as a Jewish person. You made another post but did not respond to me. I immediately responded with the same question. You posted again, not answering this question. Please see page 1, it's not like you offered even a vague view and I "demanded" more information. You simply never answered. If you'll notice, I didn't respond to you again until you offered information about Wright's background which I didn't think countered his experiences with racism. So, you are exaggerating on my "demands" and I believe you are doing this because you are oversensitive. I'm really sorry about that. I'm not trying to offend you, and here again I will repeat myself, I simply want information from those that do not agree with me to bring balance to my knowedge. I am not a one sided person and I always seek info from those that are different than I am. I find it humorous that you would characterize me as someone who's "indignant" about people who do not agree with me. I've managed to have various discussions with people that do not agree with me and it was a great learning experience on both sides.

I was hoping you were going to let me in on some policy views that Obama has that I never read. It is only now I understand that your opinion is based on his associations with other people who have made comments which you view as anti-Israel and what you've heard in the Jewish community. If you want to base your opinion of someone based on a few people that they know and not on what they have done and said themselves, so be it. But that's what I was hoping to hear from you, something Obama has actually done or said. I am very interested in learning things from those that do not support him. I like to learn.

Also I still don't know what Wright said that was anti-Israel, or Jesse Jackson for that matter (of course I never pay attention to this man so maybe that's why). I completely understand not liking Farrakhan but then I don't understand how he's connected to Obama beyond him claiming to support him. Obama has absolutely no control over that and I'm not sure why we need to hold him responsible for some other jerk.

Last, since this seems to be your biggest gripe and how you came to the conclusion that I was attempting to insult your intelligence (for the record, intelligence has nothing to do with what I was talking about). I believe that your lack of understanding of the black American experience has prevented you from even admitting to understanding why Wright was angry and bitter, whether you agree with it or not. I, on the otherhand, understand exactly where it comes from, and although I do not agree with everything he said, I do not feel the need to completely dismiss him because I've read enough about his background to feel he has much good to offer the world and his church (and he has). This is why I agree with and I'm happy that Obama didn't simply dump him like a typical politician would. This is why I am happy that instead, he chose to address what it was that made Wright say those things in the first place. THIS is why I'm in this thread. Now, if you can not see that I'm not out to get you, then I just can't help you on that. I am absolutely tired of repeating myself and talking in circles.

The end.

 

[diamondfan]

This is what I mean. You are deeming my sense of him and what could happen to be flawed. Since he is not in office, and has not yet done things, all one has to go on is WHAT he has said OR what the people he associates with and has possible roles for in his administration have said or stand for. It is not like I can go up and ask him, so that is all I CAN go on. How else, in this election process, is someone going to glean things? From sources they trust and have knowledge of, and from the own candidate''s mouth. How is anyone getting a sense of who he is, if not from those sources? Do you not read things and get your data from many places?

As for the black experience, I am not black, so how on earth could I truly know? I know what I hear from others who have lived it and what I learned about black history. You do not have experience as a Jew, but I am not denigrating your thoughts. You have Jewish friends and have gotten their sense of things. Simply because you are not Jewish I am not saying you cannot be decently informed or have insights.

No, a couple of times I did not immediately and directly reply to your queries. I was leaving with my family for spring break and did not wish to simply post something on the fly. That is why I did not directly answer you at the time. When I returned I was ill and have had to have three MRI''s, and the thread had gotten so overwhelming that I decided to avoid it for the time being, and when I got the email from a local Philadelphian about the Reverand, I waded back in as it was interesting to make note of it. It was not who asked first , either. I answered it more generally, as, like I said, until he actually was in office, if he is elected, I could not know what he is going to do, but have to get my views from a variety of places. Also, when I refer to you asking people to defend their views, you cannot think I only mean me. There are pages of this thread, that I did not even post on, where it goes on and on and it is typically you. If you are information gathering to broaden your knowledge base, great. But I still got a sense from you of, Oh, and so what? What about X? Maybe it is the style of the posts and in life I would find it more give and take in nature, but it felt like a more strident manner in which to communincate.

On the Reverend, I even clearly said that some of the foundations of his views have merit and that he has some validity mixed in there, but overall, his theme is one I cannot support. Obama may or may not agree with him, but he aligned himself there. Jesse Jackson has also made anti semitic remarks, and I think even if Obama now is not playing up certain relationships, if he is elected those friendships etc will rise to the top again.

 

[widget]

Fisher has continually asked to hear WHY some of us are supporting Obama, Here are my reasons.

First my personal perspective: I'm white, female, in my sixties, and was a moderate Republican for many years. (I think it was the evangelical rights' entry into the political arena that finally pushed me over the line and I started voting Democrat.) Eight years ago I actively backed McCain for president.

Where I am NOW: I could never support McCain because no matter what he could say or do, he is too much linked to the catastrophic Bush presidency. I truly believe that the USA lost a huge amount of prestige and credibility around the world when we elected Bush for a second term. He should have been drummed out by a landslide or impeached. I think putting McCain in the White House would appear to most of the world as an indorsement of Bush's policies.

So, that leaves me Clinton or Obama. At the beginning of the primary season (will it ever end?) I would have been satisfied with either. Their policies are pretty much the same, and I'm convinced they are both 'qualified' for the job. But as time has gone on, I've become less and less impressed with the Clintons, and more and more impressed by Obama.

Why I prefer Obama:


His executive abilities (look at his campaign)
His intellect
His authenticity and moral honesty
His loyalty (refusal to throw his pastor under the bus)
His interracial perspective
His international perspective
His style, charisma, and ability to unite and inspire Americans rather than polarize them
His patriotism (the definition of which might be discussed in another thread

)

Why I do not prefer the Clintons:

Pretty much their missing most of the qualities mentioned above.

I hope all of this doesn't make me sound like a mindless groupie. But the truth is that I think that Barack Obama is an exceptional and rare young man. Could he live up to ALL the hype? Probably not. But maybe....just maybe.... we have another Lincoln or FDR or JFK. here. The country could sure use one right now.

widget

 

[diamondfan]

Widget, while I do not totally agree about putting McCain in, it does signal a more of the same view on some levels. And I totally agree that Bush has just be the pits on so many levels...it is a shame, really, it was his to screw up and I think on the global stage we are not looking too good right now. It is a tad embarrassing to know that most of the world looks at us in a negative way. The loss of status or standing is inexcusable and should not have occurred.

Whoever it is that is elected, I only hope that they really do change things for the better, there are so many things to address, both larger and smaller, but all are important. We all live on this planet and have to find a way to coexist and look more to what makes us similar than what divides us.

 

[MoonWater]

Widget,

I use to actually like McCain before he sold his soul to the devil. I would watch him on Meet the Press and he seemed to have a good head on his shoulders. But nowadays, it''s like he changed his mind about everything in order to align himself with Bush (he needs the conservative vote). I''m not sure if I wasn''t paying enough attention to him before, or if he completely changed into something else. Before this, if it came down to McCain and Clinton I would easily vote for McCain. Now, not so much.

 

[MoonWater]

Some high school kids offer their opinion about race, politics and Obama. Never underestimate the power of inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9IldaegAB0

 

[widget]

Date: 4/4/2008 4:04:34 PM
Never underestimate the power of inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9IldaegAB0

Wow...MW, that video is great!!!! Thanks for the link..

widget

 

[MoonWater]

No problem! I thought it was pretty great as well.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 3/21/2008 10:08:35 AM
Author:widget
Hi, all...


I keep coming back to check if anyone has talked about the speech that Obama gave Tuesday.


It BLEW ME AWAY. I honestly think it should be required reading and study in every high school in the country. Whole courses of study could be built around it at the college level.


I'm wondering if my being so moved is mostly because I'm already an Obama fan. Are there any McCain or Clinton peops out there who were moved enough to reconsider Obama ? Just curious..

widget

Hi!

I'd like to answer your original question, Widget.

This thread has been very helpful for me in organizing my thoughts. I've been a supporter of Dennis Kucinich for a long time, but Dennis Kucinich is not going to be the next president, so it's time for me focus on who I can support.

I will support Obama in the election. He is likely to win the nomination, and I am glad, because he stands a chance against McCain. I cannot accept McCain. Clinton and Obama are pretty close in policy. There are a lot of things I like about Clinton, but she doesn't stand a chance against McCain, and if that's how I have to look at it, so be it.

It wasn't Obama's speech that made me change my mind, though. I did some more research on their funding. Who takes money from whom, etc.--they both collect money from (in my mind) nefarious sources, but it seems that she collects just a little bit more.

One thing that I really do like about Obama is his patriotism, because it is my own view of patriotism. Sadly, the word has been rendered meaningless, by those who choose to wage illegal war for financial gain. Whether or not he chooses to wear a flag pin makes no difference to me. If we can see flag pins on the likes of Bush and Cheney, we can see that a pin is no symbol for democracy.

I like that he is biracial. That is something I can understand. Though I'm Asian and Caucasian, and not Black and Caucasian, I do understand the complexities of coming from two different backgrounds. I call it "cultural schizophrenia," as we are often split on which group to identify with, especially when one physically looks more of one race than another. People will project on you what race they'd prefer you to be, regardless of how you truly feel.

Politicians make more promises than they can ever hope to keep, but if Obama can keep half of the promises he's making, that's real change. Especially when McCain represents all that hasn't worked for the last eight years.

I've enjoyed everyone's thoughtful and lively posts!

eta: wanted to add that though the thread became contentious at times, a lot of interesting ideas were shared, and that's really great. I've really have enjoyed reading these posts, especially the ones I don't necessarily agree with. I like to see where people are coming from. How awesome that a diamond/gem forum can be a place to share these kinds of ideas.

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 7:23:17 PM
Author: coatimundi


One thing that I really do like about Obama is his patriotism, because it is my own view of patriotism. Sadly, the word has been rendered meaningless, by those who choose to wage illegal war for financial gain. Whether or not he chooses to wear a flag pin makes no difference to me. If we can see flag pins on the likes of Bush and Cheney, we can see that a pin is no symbol for democracy.

I like that he is biracial. That is something I can understand. Though I'm Asian and Caucasian, and not Black and Caucasian, I do understand the complexities of coming from two different backgrounds. I call it 'cultural schizophrenia,' as we are often split on which group to identify with, especially when one physically looks more of one race than another. People will project on you what race they'd prefer you to be, regardless of how you truly feel.

Politicians make more promises than they can ever hope to keep, but if Obama can keep half of the promises he's making, that's real change. Especially when McCain represents all that hasn't worked for the last eight years.

I've enjoyed everyone's thoughtful and lively posts!

You know what I'm hoping for in the future? That "patriotism" to a specific country becomes unnecessary or irrelevant. I'm not sure if we can make it, but the world is getting much smaller. Everything we do at home, has an impact on others abroad. We really can't continue to look at things the way we use to. Pretty soon we will need to show global patriotism.

Also, I really love hearing about your experience as a bi-racial child. My FF thinks I'm ridiculous because he doesn't have any worry, but when we do decide to have children (assuming all goes well and we conceive) they will be bi-racial. I'm already pre-worrying about the little gal/guy. At the same time, I see the world changing on such a large scale that maybe by the time they are school age they won't face the same problems I did, or my parents generation did, or my grandparents etc etc. America appears more to me now like a melting pot than it did only a few decades ago.

Last, I agree. If Obama can keep half his promises I would be happy. No one is perfect, especially not a politician, but I think the guy is the best choice we have right now, and have had in a long while.

 

[coatimundi_org]

Date: 4/4/2008 7:43:55 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 4/4/2008 7:23:17 PM




You know what I'm hoping for in the future? That 'patriotism' to a specific country becomes unnecessary or irrelevant. I'm not sure if we can make it, but the world is getting much smaller. Everything we do at home, has an impact on others abroad. We really can't continue to look at things the way we use to. Pretty soon we will need to show global patriotism.


Also, I really love hearing about your experience as a bi-racial child. My FF thinks I'm ridiculous because he doesn't have any worry, but when we do decide to have children (assuming all goes well and we conceive) they will be bi-racial. I'm already pre-worrying about the little gal/guy. At the same time, I see the world changing on such a large scale that maybe by the time they are school age they won't face the same problems I did, or my parents generation did, or my grandparents etc etc. America appears more to me now like a melting pot than it did only a few decades ago.


Last, I agree. If Obama can keep half his promises I would be happy. No one is perfect, especially not a politician, but I think the guy is the best choice we have right now, and have had in a long while.

Yes Moon, I totally feel you about "patriotism." Yes, we will be called to show a global patriotism, especially as our shared resources dwindle.

I think the US is more of a melting pot now than when I was a kid. I was born in 1975, and I grew up in the South. Do you live in a large/larger city? We always lived in predominantly white areas. The high school I attended was an Arts/Science Magnet in a Southern inner city area. They wanted to diversify the school which was predominantly black. I chose to go to that school, because I wanted to experience something different from the all white schools that I had attended.

Also, yes, no politician can embody everything we desire, that's another reason I made a marked decision to support Obama. I'm sure I could dig up something about Kucinich, well, actually, I did today. He accepted $1,600 from the oil industry, but compared to Obama's $163,840 or Clinton's $289.950??? not so bad, eh?

Oh and Giuliani? $659,158

Fun website! It's called "Follow the Oil Money"
http://oilmoney.priceofoil.org/index.php

 

[FrekeChild]

Moon, I just wanted you to know that you''re my hero.

I think that you''ve been able to spell out your beliefs for everyone else here, and after spending an hour catching up on this thread, I understand your frustration. All the points you''ve made, you''ve backed up with article after article. While you''ve been giving out all these articles, almost every question you have asked of the contradicting opinions here has resulting in a lot of opinions, but hardly a source for these opinions. And I''m talking about opinions that we can share, articles, youtube videos, whatever. After reading all of this I too was searching for answers to the questions you were asking, and I too, do not feel that they were answered in kind to how you answered the questions they asked of you. That saddens me.

I want to say though that I don''t find your suggestions of taking a African American history class was offensive, on the contrary I thought, I should do that some day. And when diamondfan mentioned class on Jewish history and the Holocaust, I nodded to myself again and thought, well I''ll be in school for another 2 years after I''m done with my degree, thanks guys.

But my point in saying this is that ANYONE that rejects the idea of opening themselves up to absorbing more information is promoting ignorance. Any education is better than no education. I''m not trying to attack anyone here, trust me on this, but it''s become a subject that I feel strongly about. The other day in my Social Control class (totally fascinating and taught by a guy who is half Moroccan and half Spanish-from Spain- who looks Middle Eastern- and the things he''s gone through because of how he looks...

Not to even get into his religion-Islamic) my teacher had us watch "Jesus Camp". I don''t mean to insult anyone but it was horrifying for me to watch. It''s about a Evangelical/Fundamentalist camp for children and it reminded me of my own religious upbringing (Catholic sunday school) but on steroids. Now as an agnostic, it was incredibly hard for me to watch, but completely necessary to know more about these people-what they believe, how they live and how they are educated. ANY education is good education in my eyes.

For the record:
I''m a white 25 year old female college student (BA in Psychology) who has always been a liberal. I registered to vote on my 18th birthday so I could vote against George W. Bush the first time. I find Ron Paul to be a fascinating individual and wish everyone would give him more respect. McCain is someone who won''t make it into the Oval Office, not just because of his Republican backing but because of his age. He''s very out of touch with reality and the young vote. He is also too close to the Bush presidency, and I really think he has no idea that the Republicans have put him up there to fail. An interesting note: from a friend who has been a nurse for the past 40 years, she says that he''ll be lucky to make it into his second year as president because he''s showing early signs of having a major stroke. I think I should just copy Widget''s post for the rest of mine:

"So, that leaves me Clinton or Obama. At the beginning of the primary season (will it ever end?) I would have been satisfied with either. Their policies are pretty much the same, and I''m convinced they are both ''qualified'' for the job. But as time has gone on, I''ve become less and less impressed with the Clintons, and more and more impressed by Obama.

Why I prefer Obama:

His executive abilities (look at his campaign)
His intellect
His authenticity and moral honesty
His loyalty (refusal to throw his pastor under the bus)
His interracial perspective
His international perspective
His style, charisma, and ability to unite and inspire Americans rather than polarize them
His patriotism (the definition of which might be discussed in another thread )

Why I do not prefer the Clintons:
Pretty much their missing most of the qualities mentioned above.

I hope all of this doesn''t make me sound like a mindless groupie. But the truth is that I think that Barack Obama is an exceptional and rare young man. Could he live up to ALL the hype? Probably not. But maybe....just maybe.... we have another Lincoln or FDR or JFK. here. The country could sure use one right now."

Well said...very well said.

 

[ladypirate]

Date: 4/4/2008 9:41:46 PM
Author: FrekeChild
Moon, I just wanted you to know that you''re my hero.

I think that you''ve been able to spell out your beliefs for everyone else here, and after spending an hour catching up on this thread, I understand your frustration. All the points you''ve made, you''ve backed up with article after article. While you''ve been giving out all these articles, almost every question you have asked of the contradicting opinions here has resulting in a lot of opinions, but hardly a source for these opinions. And I''m talking about opinions that we can share, articles, youtube videos, whatever. After reading all of this I too was searching for answers to the questions you were asking, and I too, do not feel that they were answered in kind to how you answered the questions they asked of you. That saddens me.


I want to say though that I don''t find your suggestions of taking a African American history class was offensive, on the contrary I thought, I should do that some day. And when diamondfan mentioned class on Jewish history and the Holocaust, I nodded to myself again and thought, well I''ll be in school for another 2 years after I''m done with my degree, thanks guys.

But my point in saying this is that ANYONE that rejects the idea of opening themselves up to absorbing more information is promoting ignorance. Any education is better than no education. I''m not trying to attack anyone here, trust me on this, but it''s become a subject that I feel strongly about. The other day in my Social Control class (totally fascinating and taught by a guy who is half Moroccan and half Spanish-from Spain- who looks Middle Eastern- and the things he''s gone through because of how he looks...

Not to even get into his religion-Islamic) my teacher had us watch ''Jesus Camp''. I don''t mean to insult anyone but it was horrifying for me to watch. It''s about a Evangelical/Fundamentalist camp for children and it reminded me of my own religious upbringing (Catholic sunday school) but on steroids. Now as an agnostic, it was incredibly hard for me to watch, but completely necessary to know more about these people-what they believe, how they live and how they are educated. ANY education is good education in my eyes.


For the record:

I''m a white 25 year old female college student (BA in Psychology) who has always been a liberal. I registered to vote on my 18th birthday so I could vote against George W. Bush the first time. I find Ron Paul to be a fascinating individual and wish everyone would give him more respect. McCain is someone who won''t make it into the Oval Office, not just because of his Republican backing but because of his age. He''s very out of touch with reality and the young vote. He is also too close to the Bush presidency, and I really think he has no idea that the Republicans have put him up there to fail. An interesting note: from a friend who has been a nurse for the past 40 years, she says that he''ll be lucky to make it into his second year as president because he''s showing early signs of having a major stroke. I think I should just copy Widget''s post for the rest of mine:


''So, that leaves me Clinton or Obama. At the beginning of the primary season (will it ever end?) I would have been satisfied with either. Their policies are pretty much the same, and I''m convinced they are both ''qualified'' for the job. But as time has gone on, I''ve become less and less impressed with the Clintons, and more and more impressed by Obama.


Why I prefer Obama:


His executive abilities (look at his campaign)

His intellect

His authenticity and moral honesty

His loyalty (refusal to throw his pastor under the bus)

His interracial perspective

His international perspective

His style, charisma, and ability to unite and inspire Americans rather than polarize them

His patriotism (the definition of which might be discussed in another thread )


Why I do not prefer the Clintons:

Pretty much their missing most of the qualities mentioned above.


I hope all of this doesn''t make me sound like a mindless groupie. But the truth is that I think that Barack Obama is an exceptional and rare young man. Could he live up to ALL the hype? Probably not. But maybe....just maybe.... we have another Lincoln or FDR or JFK. here. The country could sure use one right now.''


Well said...very well said.

All I can say to this post (as well as to pretty much everything Moon has said this entire thread) is: DITTO!!!

Also, they''re trying to get McCain to release his medical records...should be interesting.

 

[diamondfan]

I heard a few weeks ago he voluntarily was giving them to the media. Many people are vital and healthy in their 70''s, it does give me pause but...the cancer remission would worry me more.

 

[MoonWater]

I haven''t read a more comprehensive list of reasons to support Obama, so I thought I would provide it for anyone that needs reasons (and falsely believes that he''s all talk and no action). Also, I think it does a fine job of defining "change."

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/02/obama-actually.html

 

[MoonWater]

Date: 4/4/2008 8:00:09 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 4/4/2008 7:43:55 PM


Yes Moon, I totally feel you about ''patriotism.'' Yes, we will be called to show a global patriotism, especially as our shared resources dwindle.


I think the US is more of a melting pot now than when I was a kid. I was born in 1975, and I grew up in the South. Do you live in a large/larger city? We always lived in predominantly white areas. The high school I attended was an Arts/Science Magnet in a Southern inner city area. They wanted to diversify the school which was predominantly black. I chose to go to that school, because I wanted to experience something different from the all white schools that I had attended.


Also, yes, no politician can embody everything we desire, that''s another reason I made a marked decision to support Obama. I''m sure I could dig up something about Kucinich, well, actually, I did today. He accepted $1,600 from the oil industry, but compared to Obama''s $163,840 or Clinton''s $289.950??? not so bad, eh?


Oh and Giuliani? $659,158

Fun website! It''s called ''Follow the Oil Money''

http://oilmoney.priceofoil.org/index.php

Nah, not a large city. Actually it feels like a small town sometimes! I''ve always lived in predominantly black areas growing up, but since I''ve been on my own I''ve chosen to live in more diverse locations. I actually live in the "gay area" of the city which I figured would be more likely to be populated with people with open minds. So far so good. I find it so awesome that you deliberately chose a predominantly black school in order to expand your horizons. That''s one of the reasons I avoided a black college.

Interesting site (cool design too) I need to pass this on to friends. Thanks for posting!