long post....advice?

[mimzy]

i''ve been meaning to write this post for a while now, but i''ve struggled with how to approach it, because i''m not even really sure how i feel about it myself.

a little bakground info:

my dear dear friend has been with her boyfriend for about six years - three in high school, then after six years they''ve been back together for three years this october. she is going to be 28 soon, and he is a year younger. they are both awesome, funny people. They are such fun people to be around, and seem like they are a really good match. he has a fine arts degree and is back in school for graphic design, and she has her teaching degree but is currently bartending while waiting to go to grad school next fall. they both live at home because a)he is still in school and doesn''t have the money to live on his own and is in debt, and b) she also has debt to pay off and is hardcore saving for the future. again, they are both awesome people.

HOWEVER

she is really ready (and has been for a very long time) ready to be engaged. he says that he wants all the same things and that he wants them with her, but he doesn''t see what the rush is. well, the rush is sort of tied to the fact that she was diagnosed with endometriosis (sp?) and really wants to have kids, which becomes increasingly dangerous as she gets older. I don''t know the ins and outs of all their conversations, so i don''t know what his response is to that, but i do know that whenever she brings it up it just turns into a fight.more than that, she just wants to get on with her life, and totally understandably so. he says that he has a jeweler he knows that he wants to do a custom ring...but she doesn''t seem to think that he is very serious about it.

the thing is, while he is a great guy, she has a lot of issues with him. He tends to be irresponsible with money (he says he can''t get her a ring because he has no money), he has ''motivation issues'' when it comes to his career and he really doesn''t seem to have any desire to move on with his life (peter pan complex, anyone?). she is a very headstrong, responsible, ambitious person that is increasingly frustrated with him, and increasingly depressed about her life (which really breaks all of our hearts, because she deserves so much to be happy). she has wanted to leave and i''m pretty sure she has threatened to in the past, but she hasnt'' followed through because she doesn''t think she can find anyone, and, of course, she really does love him and has for the past however many years.

none of us really know what to say anymore

. she is really depressed and pretty much hates her life: all of her friends are getting married (she''s been in so many weddings in the past two years...) and she is really at the end of her rope. i dont'' really usually support ultimatums, as i think it is pretty much just forcing a guy to pop the question when he probably doesn''t 100% want to just then, but in this case i don''t think i would blame her - even if it just served as an "okay, i''m really out of here" date. as for a mutual timeline.....i''m certainly going to suggest it, but i''m not totally sure that he would take kindly to that (i think it would end up more as her timeline which is pretty much an ultimatum).

i''m sure there is a lot more to it that i am forgetting to mention, and i''m sure i''ll be adding stuff as people comment (if they do), but i''m hoping we could get another perspective on it, or maybe some advice. and even though it isn''t me, i''d prefer blunter edges, as they are both really important people to me! thanks so much if you made it all the way through this.

 

[Mara]

my thoughts...

i'm sure she loves him. she may even be really ready. but are you sure she is really ready to marry HIM?? from what you said she has considered seriously leaving him but has put in the time and is also afraid she won't find anyone else. 6 years is a long time to be with someone...and invest that time towards what you probaly imagine at the time is the same common end goal...marriage.

however, fear of being alone..time invested.....those are not necessarily the greatest reasons to get married in my opinion. i do believe you can really love someone but just not have them be the right one to marry for you. marriage can be really tough and it's not for the faint of heart.

long term all these things that irritate her about him will NOT change. he may mellow as he gets older but people typically become further enmeshed in their habits and personalities rather than morphing into the person that the mate wants them to be. so that is really important because if she has things she definitely does not agree with now with him, chances are in the future they will become even more misaligned in that sense.

so they're ~27/28...neither of them is financially stable, one is still in school. they may be on different pages in their relationship, she wants to move fwd but when they talk about it they fight. he doesn't save money, has a lot of debt, is irresponsible, and they both are still living at home. she wants to have kids sooner rather than later, but when they talk about it they fight. she hates her life and is depressed...why? because of him specifically? or maybe rather because at her age she's not really where she expected to be in her life? which could be a totally different issue not related to him.

seems like they have a fair amount of things to work out before they could even imagine the following...maybe in order: a) being out on their own and independent which i think is important b) getting married and c) having kids.

i understand what you are saying about them being good people & important to you. i have known good people who are just not great together in the long term. my advice to her would be to sort out what she wants out of life. and i guess he needs to figure that out too. they sound fairly misaligned to me in expectations.

 

[bee*]

Date: 9/29/2007 1:07:53 AM
Author: Mara


so they''re ~27/28...neither of them is financially stable, one is still in school. they may be on different pages in their relationship, she wants to move fwd but when they talk about it they fight. he doesn''t save money, has a lot of debt, is irresponsible, and they both are still living at home. she wants to have kids sooner rather than later, but when they talk about it they fight. she hates her life and is depressed...why? because of him specifically? or maybe rather because at her age she''s not really where she expected to be in her life? which could be a totally different issue not related to him.


seems like they have a fair amount of things to work out before they could even imagine the following...maybe in order: a) being out on their own and independent which i think is important b) getting married and c) having kids.

You summed it up for me Mara! I think from reading your post mimzy that at the moment, it really doesn''t seem the time for them to get married or have a child, much as she would like too. They seem to have very different personalities, and while sometimes opposites attract, in your friends case it sounds like it''s making her very depressed. They definitely both sound like they''re great people, but maybe not great for each other. I agree with Mara in that they have a lot to work out before they can move on. If he''s in grad school and living at home due to debt, how many years is it going to take him to finish school and then afford to move out? She might be waiting a while so she really has to decide is he worth the wait or would she rather split now and see where life takes her.

 

[KimberlyH]

It doesn''t sound like the choices either of them are making personally and professionally (aside from her saving $$) lend toward getting married any time in the near future. I would highly recommend that, if she hasn''t, she should share statistics about endometriosis and child bearing with him and then have a conversation about where they are headed and where they want to be and how those two things are in some ways in direct opposition (both returning to school, her working at a bar, his debt, both living at home, etc.). If what she really wants is to be married to him and have a family it seems to me it would be best for her to return to teaching and work with him to get his bills paid off (I''m not recommended she do this, just laying out a path that makes most sense if he is really what she wants). I think a good ol'' fashioned LIW: Here''s what I want, what do you want and by when? conversation is in order. No ultimatums, no fighting, just an adult discussion about where they''re headed.

That being said, it sounds to me that they aren''t a good match long term because of their differing aspirations, goals and drive.

 

[aljdewey]

As I reply to this, let me preface by saying that my intentions here *absolutely* are to help.

I'm sure your gal friend wants what most of us do......marriage, family, relationship stability, etc. Things don't just happen, though, just because we want them. Part of charting the course of your life is identifying what your meaningful goals are, what each requires to achieve, and then working toward meeting them. Since we can't have everything we want immediately, part of that is prioritizing which things trump others.

One of the things she wants is marriage/family. She wants them presumably within a five-year period due to the endo. issues. However, one of the things she needs to successfully navigate marriage/family is financial independence, which she doesn't yet have. She also wants grad school, and that goal requires is time/attention to pursue coursework and potentially living under a reduced income to get there.

It would seem these two pursuits conflict with one another and shouldn't really be done at the same time, so she has to decide which is more pressing and prioritize that.

At this stage, even though she feels emotionally ready for marriage, it doesn't seem as though she's actually ready for it financially.

Even if she resolves that and sets her path to prepare, it seems as though he isn't ready. While he knows about the endo. issues, I suspect he feels pressured that she's using those to force an acceleration in his readiness...and that ain't gonna work.

If she were my friend, I'd say to her: "Hey, i know you want this, but you're really not prepared for it yet. Take the steps to shore yourself up financially, and then you'll be ready. Once you've done that, that's the time to sit down w/bf and say 'I'm ready to move on to the next stage of my life, and I want that with you. How close are you to wanting it too?' If the answer is vague or non-committal, you'll need to accept that through no fault of either side, you're just not both ready at the same time, and then you should redirect your efforts to finding someone who is on the same page, wants what you want, and wants it at the same time you want it."

Best of luck to her - tough situation.

 

[marvel]

Date: 9/29/2007 8:16:20 PM
Author: aljdewey
As I reply to this, let me preface by saying that my intentions here *absolutely* are to help.

that''s funny!! You mean you''re not here to be malicious? That just takes all the fun out of it

 

[Aloros]

I agree with aljdewey, except on one point.

The fact is, she doesn't have a lot of time due to her condition. And, let's face it, it takes time to date around, to meet "the one", to spend time in that relationship, get engaged, get married, etc. Is she set on becoming a biological parent? How much so?

She's thought seriously about leaving her current bf. Is this only due to the fact that he doesn't know if he's ready to get married or not? If she continues dating him and gets her finances in order, where is she left if he decides that no, he is still not ready to get married?

The fact that he is irresponsible with money and that they have different levels of ambition sounds a bit like a warning bell to me. These are serious, valid complaints. I dated someone like that for nearly six years. He will not change. Is she ok with this? I mean, I know we all have our faults, but these are things that could cause conflicts in a future marriage.

If these things cause her any more than passing worry, this is not the man for her. It's a horrible thing to live your life with that sort of stress invading it. I think that ideally, most stresses should come from outside the marriage, so you can face it together. This is all just my opinion, but whooo boy! I was sad when I broke up with that ex, but the larger part of me was relieved. I'd spent the last six years stressed out a lot more than I would have been had I been alone. Dating my current bf has lowered my stress to nearly nothing at all. Two people together should be stronger, not weaker, right?

She sounds like an amazing woman from the way you describe her, and if she were single, I'm sure she'd have men knocking on her door.

I just don't think a fear of being alone should ever stop a person from ending a relationship.

 

[aljdewey]

Taking a second stab at this because it seems this piece didn''t resonate......

It doesn''t matter if her BF is ready or not right now, because financially, she isn''t really ready either.

She won''t become financially independent overnight, so it''s possible that in the time it takes her to achieve this, perhaps her BF would then be ready.

At any rate, it''s a moot point whether or not her BF is ready. SHE herself is not ready yet......and she has to amend that first.

 

[SeattleSweetheart]

I''m sorry to hear about the hard choices your friend is trying to make.

When I was 28, I married a man who wasn''t financially responsible and 7 years later I divorced him because he never changed and I didn''t want to be in debt my whole life with no retirement savings. There were other problems too, but a big reason I left is because I didn''t want to go down the drain financially. The marriage certificate is a financial contract. What each person does financially during the marriage can ruin the future of both people.

I told my current boyfriend that before I would accept his marriage proposal I will have to see all three of his credit reports. He has no problem with that. He and I have very similar financial values and goals and we believe in complete transparency about our finances. If he didn''t agree to be this open about his finances I would not date him. To me the financial values I require in a relationship are non-negotiable. This may seem really harsh, but I am not going to ever make myself vulnerable to financial ruin ever again if I can help it. I learned the hard way.

I really hope your friend does not have to learn the hard way. But I know that no one can make her decisions for her about her relationship. I hope she chooses her own life and happiness over any guy. Another thing I learned after my divorce, there are other great guys out there. The fear of being alone is not a good reason to stay in a relationship.

I wish for your friend the best life has to offer. I hope she will not continue to underestimate her ability to create a wonderful life with or without a man.

What a good friend you are to try and help her.