Having the talk AGAIN

[dawn74]

Hello there!
Pretty new member here on the board, although I''ve been reading from afar for a while. Could use some advice from all you wise ladies on how to handle a discussion that I know will come up this weekend.

Here''s my situation: My boyfriend and I have known each other for about three years, been dating seriously for two.
In January, I initiated our first marriage discussion. On the whole, it went pretty well (after he got the deer in the headlights look out of his eyes.)
Anyway, I told him I would like to see us get engaged by June; he said 2006 "sounded reasonable." I thought, okay. That''s manageable. Things seem to be going well; I show him a picture of a ring I like. He tells me thanks for the info, and appears to take it all in stride.
Fast forward to late July when he says out of the blue: "Can we talk? I gave myself a deadline of June to propose, and haven''t been able to bring myself to do it. I don''t know why and I don''t know what''s stopping me. And I don''t know when I''ll be ready."
He went into major freak-out mode. I won''t go into all the details. I got upset, told him I need a little break to think things over.
A couple of weeks later, we sat down and had a frank talk. I laid my cards on the table, so to speak. Told him I loved him, and that I knew that this is what I wanted. I said that I believed that he knows what he wants too and that he simply needs to do something about it. I said that if I was the one he wanted to be with, then he needed to propose. If not, then I had the right to know that too. I said that the only thing that would make him a "bad" guy was leaving me in limbo, wondering if he was ever going to ask me to marry him.
That was the second week in August. It is now mid-to-late September.
We''ve joked about the marriage/ring thing a couple of times since then, but no real progress has been made.
My birthday (the big 32) is coming up next month. And would you believe he''s asked me three times what I want? I mean, seriously, how could he not know?
Thus far, I''ve dodged the question. But I know he''s going to ask again. Do I have to have another big, "I want to get married" talk with him? Do I just tell him I want a ring? Ugh. He can''t be that clueless, can he?
And if he doesn''t propose, do I give him more time? Give him an ultimatum? I was willing to wait until the end of the year, but that was before his mini-meltdown in July. Now I am not so sure...
Any advice is greatly appreciated. And as always, my apologies for the lengthy post.[

 

[janinegirly]

i have a similar situation, but not quite ready to go into it in detail (trying to not be consummed by it). Anyway, I can relate. I don''t get why guys have meltdowns, it seems so simple, but this is something the 2 sexes will never seem to see the same on.
anyway, a few questions:
how old is he?
do you live together?
have the families met?
did he explain why he is "not ready" and what he needs to get there?
you mention that you laid your cards on the table, but did not explain what he said in response? He must have said something that made you willing to keep waiting indefinitely.

I would not hold your hopes up for your b''day, otherwise you will not be able to enjoy it and go into a spiral (trust, me I was there. Also had an anniversary soon after, and he still did not make the move). Try to separate the 2...milestones and conversations on the future. He may surprise you on your b''day, but i would not build it up in your head, b/c most likely he is not seeing it that way. they DO not see things as we do and have different sense of time,etc.

 

[decodelighted]

Take your birthday out of the picture & see how you feel. When would your "deadline" be then? Honestly, I think you're putting WAY more emphasis on your b-day than you should. Do you really think he'd give you an engagement ring as a BIRTHDAY PRESENT? Would you WANT him too?

I suspect it's just a random time you've hung your hopes on and I think that's setting you up for dissapointment.

The very fact he's ASKING "what" you want for your birthday seems quite the clue that he's planning on getting a regular ol' gift.

Where did you leave things off before ... just with you telling him he's not a "bad guy"?? What did you *expect* to happen? *Hope* would happen? Has he given you any reassurences/timeline/notice of changing feelings on the matter? If not ...

What really has changed? Sure, he knows how you feel ... so?

Right now: he. likes. things. as. they. are. Do you?

 

[Cailet]

agreed with Deco!!

it seems like you said "I don''t like how things are -- any change would be good even if we are done as long as we don''t stay in this limbo"

and then you guys went right back to same ole routine.

i think you should figure out how long you are comfortable waiting for him to get his act together -- let him know how long that is -- and then seriously plan on moving on after that deadline if nothing happens. If you live together figure out at LEAST somewhere you could stay for a while when you are looking for a new place to live.

Usually - if a guy is wanting to keep the gal in his life but is dragging his feet, when he sees she is serious he gets in line. If he isn''t serious about it his true colors come out and then you are better off without him.

not to be harsh, but you need to take care of yourself and what YOU want.

 

[dawn74]

I think you are making some good points.
The birthday thing - I think I am looking at it like "the next logical time" where he might do something.
But you''re right: I''d much rather know that it is NOT going to happen next month, and just be able to enjoy myself than wondering.

Janine, as for your questions:
He''s 35. Never been married. Was engaged once before, but she cheated on him and that was the end of that.
We don''t live together, so finding a place for me to go isn''t an issue.
I have met his family and he''s spent a lot of time with mine, although our respective families have not yet met.
I am just really having a hard time getting my head around the idea of saying goodbye to someone that you really love, you know? I feel like I COULD do it, but I don''t WANT to do it.
But then again, who does?
I have always been prepared to give him until the end of the year. That hasn''t changed. I was just hoping to avoid giving him a deadline. But it doesn''t look like he''s eager to make any kind of decision without prodding.
It''s just SOO frustrating.
The last time we had the talk, I did most of the talking. He listened, and we left it so that he was supposed to come back to me and let me know what he wants.
Which, of course, he hasn''t done. Probably, because, as Deco points out: he''s happy with things just as they are.

As for me, I am growing increasingly frustrated with our lack of progres, so to speak.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 9/21/2006 1:03:52 PM
Author: dawn74
The birthday thing - I think I am looking at it like ''the next logical time'' where he might do something.

FWIW, there''s "girl logic" and "guy logic". I''ve yet to meet a guy who thinks a birthday is a "logical" time to propose. He'' probably DESPERATELY hoping you''ll name some desired gift (jewelry, ipod, whatever) so he can be the hero and give you THAT in hopes it will temporarily distract you from what you *really* want.

The last time we had the talk, I did most of the talking. He listened, and we left it so that he was supposed to come back to me and let me know what he wants. Which, of course, he hasn''t done.

A lot of us have been "here" before. Sadly, it seems firm deadlines are one of the only ways to bring these feet-dragging situations to a head. I suspect he''s really not all that afraid of "being a bad guy" ... he just doesn''t want his sweet current deal messed up.

But I''d remind you, you probably don''t want to be married to someone you have to coerce or manipulate or reason into marrying YOU.

I (now 39) had a version of "the talk" with a boyfriend one time who eventually said "Ya know, I don''t think I see myself marrying you." And I was like "See ya." Eight years later he still calls, still hoping to continue the drama. Now that I''m, gasp, sixteen? days away from marrying my Sweetie (35) ... I can really appreciate how psyched & eager & happy we BOTH are to be taking that step TOGETHER.

I truly wish the same for you ... and everyone really!

 

[janinegirly]

hi dawn,
have you explored if his prior engagement has left him feeling fearful/negative about marriage? Does it bother you that he moved forward with her but is frozen with you?

Trust me, your feelings are very legit, and it is difficult situation. He certainly cares about you and doesn''t want to lose you. I think he probably has some mental blocks towards marriage as a result of his last experience, although he may not be aware of it. Guys do not analyze, and if something is difficult to think about, they just ignore it and hope it''ll go away. He is also, as many others have said, comfortable in the current situation, and since you haven''t brought it up recently,he may think everything''s ok for now. His sense of time is different--he probably feels like you guys "just talked."

I also hear you on being torn about letting someone you love go. No one likes this. But if you want marriage and he doesn''t, are you really ok with that? Over time you''d come to resent him for wasting your time and slowing down the start of a potential life together/family etc. You will blame yourself for not bringing it up sooner and more firmly since you always knew it was what you wanted. Save yourself time (I WISH I had), and bring it up again (do not link it w/your b''day) and get some concrete answers and timeline from him. Don''t assume anything. Silence, status quo is not a sign that you guys are necessarily on the same page. I say this, bc I went through it..

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/21/2006 1:03:52 PM
Author: dawn74

I am just really having a hard time getting my head around the idea of saying goodbye to someone that you really love, you know? I feel like I COULD do it, but I don't WANT to do it.
But then again, who does?
I have always been prepared to give him until the end of the year. That hasn't changed. I was just hoping to avoid giving him a deadline. But it doesn't look like he's eager to make any kind of decision without prodding.
It's just SOO frustrating.
The last time we had the talk, I did most of the talking. He listened, and we left it so that he was supposed to come back to me and let me know what he wants.
Which, of course, he hasn't done. Probably, because, as Deco points out: he's happy with things just as they are.

I gotta tell you from my gut: I don't think he's doing "nothing", and I don't think he's just sitting back hoping to maintain the status quo.

You said he approached you in July to say "can we talk" and told you he set a deadline for himself for June...and just couldn't bring himself to do it.

That says a few things to me: He WAS putting thought toward it, and he was trying to make it happen. I also think it's a great sign that he took the initiative to come YOU and said "can we talk". I think it shows he's not just burying his head in the sand hoping that you'll let it drop.

You left it that he should come back to you and let you know what he wants. I'd guess that hasn't happened because he still hasn't figured it out for himself yet.

I think he's trying...and to me, that's not something to throw in the towel on. You can change things without having to say goodbye.

I think you should sit with him again and say: "I've been waiting for you to come back and let me know what you want since we last spoke a few weeks ago; since you haven't, I'd guess you're still trying to figure that out.

I have to be honest with you, though....I think a year is enough time to figure out what you want. I also think that if you're still not sure about marriage after a year of considering it, it probably means you don't really want it or you're just not ready.

I agreed to wait until the end of this year, and I will stick to that. If you're still unsure at the end of the year, I think it's time for us to stop being exclusive to each other and begin seeing other people. I want to move to the next stage of my life....family and children. I hope it's with you, and because I don't want to close the door on that possibility, we could still date, but I need to be realistic and give myself opportunities to meet other people, too, who are ready and want what I want. I can't wait for you to be ready on an open-ended time frame without seeing other people."

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 9/21/2006 11:37:13 AM
Author:dawn74
**I initiated our first marriage discussion
**He got the deer in the headlights look
**I told him I would like to see us get engaged by June
**he said 2006 ''sounded reasonable.''
** I show him a picture of a ring I like
** He tells me thanks for the info
** he says out of the blue: ''Can we talk? I gave myself a deadline of June to propose, and haven''t been able to bring myself to do it. I don''t know why and I don''t know what''s stopping me. And I don''t know when I''ll be ready.''
** He went into major freak-out mode.
** I laid my cards on the table
** I said that I believed that he knows what he wants too
** I did most of the talking
** He listened,
** he was supposed to come back to me and let me know what he wants.

When I looked back at this I, I, I string of things ...I see a lot of what you feel & what you want & what you said ... and I see him just listening, not even agreeing, not even giving much feedback. Has he EVER outright said he wants to marry you?

Have you ever asked him why he felt "ready" to marry the other girl but "freaked out" at the idea of proposing to you?

Something to thnk about.

 

[janinegirly]

i have to say proceed with caution if you take alj''s advice. You cannot assume he is working on it, especially since he hasnt'' said anything particularly reassuring (other than he''s not ready and will get back to you on his thoughts, which he didn''t). Also, your gut is most likely correct..and if you''re here venting your concerns, then your gut is to feel concern. Plus his comments on your b''day indicate he is not looking at things the way you are. This isn''t necessarily a problem (guy vs. girl logic is a good way to put it!), but does reveal there is a need for BOTH of you to talk and be specific.
It is better to have a conversation and lay all cards on table (both of you..if you''ve said your piece, ask his thoughts now that he''s had a few weeks). If he says all kinds of reassuring things, then ok, give him till the end of the year (internally, you don''t have to give him any set deadline) but prepare to move on if he continues to stall/be unsure.

 

[anchor31]

Date: 9/21/2006 1:41:14 PM
Author: decodelighted

Date: 9/21/2006 11:37:13 AM
Author:dawn74
**I initiated our first marriage discussion
**He got the deer in the headlights look
**I told him I would like to see us get engaged by June
**he said 2006 ''sounded reasonable.''
** I show him a picture of a ring I like
** He tells me thanks for the info
** he says out of the blue: ''Can we talk? I gave myself a deadline of June to propose, and haven''t been able to bring myself to do it. I don''t know why and I don''t know what''s stopping me. And I don''t know when I''ll be ready.''
** He went into major freak-out mode.
** I laid my cards on the table
** I said that I believed that he knows what he wants too
** I did most of the talking
** He listened,
** he was supposed to come back to me and let me know what he wants.

When I looked back at this I, I, I string of things ...I see a lot of what you feel & what you want & what you said ... and I see him just listening, not even agreeing, not even giving much feedback. Has he EVER outright said he wants to marry you?

Have you ever asked him why he felt ''ready'' to marry the other girl but ''freaked out'' at the idea of proposing to you?

Something to thnk about.

I''m sorry, but I have to agree with this... Have you two ever talked about what both of you want out of life? You say you initiated the first discussion (nothing wrong with that, I did that too), but you immediately told him you wanted to be engaged six months later... It looks to me like you put a lot pressure on him right away on that very first marriage discussion. That would scare away the best of them, especially if he never even told you outright that he wanted to marry you.

I''m all for laying your cards on the table, but you have to ask him what he wants and needs too.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 9/21/2006 1:53:05 PM
Author: janinegirly
i have to say proceed with caution if you take alj's advice. You cannot assume he is working on it,

If he says all kinds of reassuring things, then ok, give him till the end of the year (internally, you don't have to give him any set deadline) but prepare to move on if he continues to stall/be unsure.

I think you've taken what I said out of context a bit. I didn't say that I think "working on it" means he's in process of buying a ring. "Working on it" means he's been giving thought to their first discussion in January. The fact that he set initially set a deadline for himself of June tells me he also heard her say "I want to be engaged in 6 months" and was trying to rise to that (even though she had agreed to something in 2006). None of this suggests (to me, anyway) that he's simply sweeping it under the rug and hoping it will go away.

Further, I didn't suggest that she should hold off taking any action even if he was working on it. My advice is materially the same as yours.....if he's not ready by year end, move on. However, 'move on' doesn't have to mean 'never speak to him again' or 'say goodbye'. Moving on can mean "I'm open to all possibilities". It means she keeps her options open---dates people (maybe even including him) and see what happens.

If she finds someone else who wants what she wants, he misses out. If he realizes (once they aren't exclusive anymore) that she IS what he wants and if she hasn't found someone else by then, that's a fabulous outcome too.

I would, though, agree with all the above comments to find out what he wants and what he's thinking, too. Does he still want marriage for his future? Does he want a family? etc. You can't ever be "ready" for something if you don't want it to begin with. It would be helpful to know if he's sure he wants that.....is this just a "when" or is it an "if" on the "I'm not ready" thing.

 

[janinegirly]

alj, ahh, i see now. So we pretty much are all saying the same thing. The reason why I don''t allow for much "assumption" in these situations is b/c I''ve been there and had my bf seem to say promising things/not disagree with my timelines--but in reality he never said anything directly or on his own initiative--he mostly instead fell into a silent male stupor while I went on and on about my needs, hopes, desires, timelines. When he was quiet and did not disagree, I read into that as a positive and always gave him the benefit of the doubt and gave him space, all the while chastising myself for asking too many questions. Looking back, my instincts were right..and I was asking all those ques to protect myself. I wish I had been more firm, because now I am in a bad spot and in limbo more than ever.This is why I''m advising others in similar boats (and dawn''s is VERY similar to my situation), to not be so selfless and instead get some clear answers asap from her bf sooner rather than later. Time is too valuable to make assumptions and wait. If she has a convo soon and HEARS him say something concrete about marriage (not just vague talk about the future), then it is up to her how long she wants to wait to see an actual proposal. Right now, he hasn''t said much of anything definitive except he is not ready, and he doesn''t know when he will be. Dawn on the other hand, has made her position very clear.

 

[dawn74]

Hey all -
First, I think maybe I have not characterized the substance of our discussions appropriately. Our talk in January was our first big "marriage" talk in that it was the first time we talked specifically about timelines.
But prior to that we had had repeated mini-conversations about what we wanted out of life. Yes, we both saw ourselves being married, yes, we were pretty sure we wanted kids, but only one or two. Yes, we loved each other and wanted to be together. No, we didn''t want to live together before we got married, etc.
So when we talked in July (that''s the conversation he initiated) I asked him what he thought was holding him back. He said essentially some of the same things he said in January: that it wasn''t me, it wasn''t not having confidence in the relationship. He said it wasn''t a financial issue (This had been a concern of his last year.) He characterized it more as a general feeling of fear, being scared,losing freedom, and making sure this was the right move because it was such a big step. He said he had hoped he would have been able to move past some of those things in the first six months of 2006, but that he felt like they were still there, and still issues that he hadn''t worked through.
I guess what I am saying is that this is not something that I just hit him with in January and have been impatiently tapping my feet on since then. This has been something that has evolved over time, but yes, it has taken on greater urgency in recent months because I feel like I am ready and he still appears hesitant.

It does appear that you all seem to be in agreement that it might be good to give him until the end of the year, and then explore other options if he hasn''t moved forward.
Your advice seems logical and sound - and giving him a few more months seems like a reasonable thing to do.
I just don''t know whether to keep having conversations with him to see if he is closer to taking that step, or if I should simply let it be for a while.

 

[dawn74]

P.S. - Janine: something you said has really resonated with me. I have a tendency to not press him as much as I should, and just assume that if he''s nodding his head in a agreement, that he''s on the same page.
I think you''re advice is right on: should this discussion come up again (whenever or however that may be) I need to encourage him to give me more than a "vague" answer.

 

[janinegirly]

i know from my perspective, i wasn''t wondering if this was the first time you''d brought it up or how many convos you''ve had in the past.
the bigger concern is that he hasn''t really expressed (9 months after that conversation and 3 mo''s after the "deadline") where he is at now. IE is he still consummed by fears, is he still "working" through this, or is he past that and now just working on proposal details? He needs to tell you where he is at now, because he is now on borrowed time past the self imposed deadline that you were waiting for and your gut is telling you he is just comfortable in status quo. You can move the deadline (to your b''day, and then yearend), but the issue will remain until it is confronted honestly. Best to get a sense of where he''s at now, b/c if he says anything other than "I have no doubts, but be patient so it can be a surprise" at this point, I''d be very concerned. Generally, people do not need months/years to feel marriage ready if it''s what they truly want and it''s a contradiction for him to say "yes, I want to be married to YOU and have kids" and also say "I have fear, scared to lose my freedom, not ready". Unless, of course you are ready to give him an indefinite amout of time--which is exactly the "limbo" you said would categorize him as a "bad guy". I hope you have a conversation with him soon, not so much on your views, but HIS at this point in time. You also should ask him the effect of his prior broken engagement and if he had simliar fears then. These are pretty big core issues you need to deal with before marriage and a life together, let alone engagement.

 

[janinegirly]

PS to Dawn: I hope you don''t think I am being harsh--it''s just b/c I''ve been there and always let me bf give me vague answers only to have it burn me in the end. Maybe you''ll be different, but better to be safe and protect yourself. If I was in my 20''s, I''d feel different..

 

[anchor31]

Date: 9/21/2006 4:27:20 PM
Author: dawn74
Hey all -
First, I think maybe I have not characterized the substance of our discussions appropriately. Our talk in January was our first big ''marriage'' talk in that it was the first time we talked specifically about timelines.
But prior to that we had had repeated mini-conversations about what we wanted out of life. Yes, we both saw ourselves being married, yes, we were pretty sure we wanted kids, but only one or two. Yes, we loved each other and wanted to be together. No, we didn''t want to live together before we got married, etc.
So when we talked in July (that''s the conversation he initiated) I asked him what he thought was holding him back. He said essentially some of the same things he said in January: that it wasn''t me, it wasn''t not having confidence in the relationship. He said it wasn''t a financial issue (This had been a concern of his last year.) He characterized it more as a general feeling of fear, being scared,losing freedom, and making sure this was the right move because it was such a big step. He said he had hoped he would have been able to move past some of those things in the first six months of 2006, but that he felt like they were still there, and still issues that he hadn''t worked through.
I guess what I am saying is that this is not something that I just hit him with in January and have been impatiently tapping my feet on since then. This has been something that has evolved over time, but yes, it has taken on greater urgency in recent months because I feel like I am ready and he still appears hesitant.

It does appear that you all seem to be in agreement that it might be good to give him until the end of the year, and then explore other options if he hasn''t moved forward.
Your advice seems logical and sound - and giving him a few more months seems like a reasonable thing to do.
I just don''t know whether to keep having conversations with him to see if he is closer to taking that step, or if I should simply let it be for a while.

That''s good to know, because it really was the impression I got. We judge from the info we have, so thanks for the precision.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 9/21/2006 4:27:20 PM
Author: dawn74
He characterized it more as a general feeling of fear, being scared,losing freedom, and making sure this was the right move because it was such a big step. He said he had hoped he would have been able to move past some of those things in the first six months of 2006, but that he felt like they were still there, and still issues that he hadn''t worked through.

I''d feel a whole lot better, and I''m sure you would too if you KNEW he was taking some ACTION to "work through" his feelings ... i.e. consulting a therapist, reading a book about commitment, seeking guidence from a mentor or religious figure or parent.

People usually don''t just wake up one day & "feel differently". I''m afraid that may be what he''s hoping for. Some people miss out on relationships that could have worked out because they''re just not ready to actually "work out" their issues at the time ... or, don''t have the experience to know that you can''t always "work out" everything on your own.

Maybe that''s something else to bring up when the next convo on this subject occurs.

BTW -- I agree with a lot of the things Janinegirly has mentioned.