General watch info for people who want more info on horology

[CUSO]

A very informal way of "ranking" watches is through a tier process that is totally subjective. There really is no other way. Some watch folks agree, some do not. This is for mens and womens. Price does not always determain quality as most expensive watches are considered Veblen and do not at all follow the true suply vs. demand laws. I am sure I have missed many brands you know of, but this is a great starting point to learn about watches. One of the things that the top tier watches have that makes them so desireable are the in-house-movements (the insides of the watch). The quality of in-house is far superior to others due to the fact that they are hand made movements invented by the manufaturer (hella lot of time and work).

Tier one - usually $20,000 - $250,000 +
Patek Philippe
Vacheron Constantine
Audemars Piguet
A Lange and Sohne
Breguet

Tier two - usually $10,000 - $60,000 +
Chronoswiss
Ulysse Nardin
Franck Muller
Glashutte Origional
Jaeger LeCoultre
Zenith
Panerai

Tier three - usually $5000 - $30,000 + (quality significantly less than tier 2)
Breitling
Rolex
Omega
IWC
Bulgari
Cartier
RGM - (tier 2.5 if there was one)

Tier four - $1000-$5000
Longines
Hamilton
Tissot
Ball
Bell & Ross
Fortis
Tag Heuer
Baume & Mercier

 

[kenny]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Are these GIA or EGL grades?

 

[Hera]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Why does the post that is supposed to be informative about Horology where one of the key notes is that price does not equal quality ranked by price? Wouldn't it be more informative to write a post ranking the qualities?

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

There is no formal grading of watches, they are graded purely subjectively by enthusiasts, most of whom agree with my tiering, but some do not.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Why does the post that is supposed to be informative about Horology where one of the key notes is that price does not equal quality ranked by price? Wouldn't it be more informative to write a post ranking the qualities?

We have to start in kindergarden before we enter high school. I am taking this slow since I know many dont understand. This is the most basic entry point to horology. Jeez is everyone a critic, especially with topics they may not know or understand...????

 

[Autumnovember]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

For the first time ever, I actually agree with you. That's pretty much identical to how FI would tier watches too.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

For the first time ever, I actually agree with you. That's pretty much identical to how FI would tier watches too.

This is a start.

 

[Bleed Burnt Orange]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Thanks for the info. I am glad for it.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Thanks for the info. I am glad for it.

I would be very happy to answer any in depth questions you may have.... HOOK'EM

 

[Hera]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

*yawn*

I don't recollect anyone asking for watch information. Isn't that what watch forums are for? Oh. Right. You were banned from them.

Oh, snap!
but seriously Cuso, we aren't kindergarteners here. We are largely educated jewelry enthusiasts that know very well how to do a google search on watches. Then we can make a tier on a word document by price, and then after that, it's time for a snack and nap time.

Guess what? This was a thread for people who want more info on horology. If you dont then dont post here.

Actually the topic is quite interesting, I just don't care so much about the price rather than the quality so I guess we don't agree. It's not all about the money and the status for me, I guess.

 

[Lula]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the design of the cases.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

*yawn*

I don't recollect anyone asking for watch information. Isn't that what watch forums are for? Oh. Right. You were banned from them.

Oh, snap!
but seriously Cuso, we aren't kindergarteners here. We are largely educated jewelry enthusiasts that know very well how to do a google search on watches. Then we can make a tier on a word document by price, and then after that, it's time for a snack and nap time.

Guess what? This was a thread for people who want more info on horology. If you dont then dont post here.

Actually the topic is quite interesting, I just don't care so much about the price rather than the quality so I guess we don't agree. It's not all about the money and the status for me, I guess.
As for people asking for more information about watches, see Kama's post above.

Listen, price vs. quality is one of the most complicated topics that watch enthusiasts discuss, and gets heated very fast on the forums. There are hundreds of variables. Way to complicated for general discussion. I am keeping it simple

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the cases.

Yes new only, pre owned is a bit different.
You confused me for a second because ETA is what non-in-house (mass produced) movements are called.

 

[that_someone_special]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

I wish there was a section to put this post in.

Oh yeah... there is! Can this be moved to Jewelry Pieces?

CUSO, I feel like almost every post you make is about money, and how much THIS THIS AND THIS (oh and my jeans..) cost.

 

[Lula]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the cases.

Yes new only, pre owned is a bit different.
You confused me for a second because ETA is what non-in-house (mass produced) movements are called.

Yes, that's true! Sorry about that. I like the value that can be found in pre-owned, and I like owning something that is unique in styling. I also like knowing that the movements in the watches I buy are not ETA ! With so many of the current watch brands -- even the expensive ones -- it's hard to know for sure what the company is producing in-house and what they are buying mass-produced from Swatch, unless you do a fair amount of research. Even brands like Tiffany and Cartier use mass-produced movements. It really pays to educate yourself before you put down $$$ for a watch.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the cases.

Yes new only, pre owned is a bit different.
You confused me for a second because ETA is what non-in-house (mass produced) movements are called.

Yes, that's true! Sorry about that. I like the value that can be found in pre-owned, and I like owning something that is unique in styling. I also like knowing that the movements in the watches I buy are not ETA ! With so many of the current watch brands -- even the expensive ones -- it's hard to know for sure what the company is producing in-house and what they are buying mass-produced from Swatch, unless you do a fair amount of research. Even brands like Tiffany and Cartier use mass-produced movements. It really pays to educate yourself before you put down $$$ for a watch.

This is so important. Even serious enthusiasts have a hard time determaining in-house on some watches. Like Ulysse Nardin for instance, they take an ETA (at the bottom of their range) and heavily modify it and call it a UN275 movement. Looking at it it looks in-house, sounds in-house, but it is just a modified ETA. It is a critical point many miss. Unless you are sure it is in house, dont buy (if you want an in-house that is)

 

[that_someone_special]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

According to him.. now you have?

 

[Kaleigh]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Interesting topic. I adore watches and sold some of the best watches out there... We have many that are watch enthusiasts.. I don't talk about them often as it's not my primary passion. Diamonds are...

You just gave a ranking of what you percieve as best.. Now back that up, that would be informative....

 

[Ella]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Enough everyone. Please be respectful of others.

 

[ksinger]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the cases.

Yes new only, pre owned is a bit different.
You confused me for a second because ETA is what non-in-house (mass produced) movements are called.

Yes, that's true! Sorry about that. I like the value that can be found in pre-owned, and I like owning something that is unique in styling. I also like knowing that the movements in the watches I buy are not ETA ! With so many of the current watch brands -- even the expensive ones -- it's hard to know for sure what the company is producing in-house and what they are buying mass-produced from Swatch, unless you do a fair amount of research. Even brands like Tiffany and Cartier use mass-produced movements. It really pays to educate yourself before you put down $$$ for a watch.

This is so important. Even serious enthusiasts have a hard time determaining in-house on some watches. Like Ulysse Nardin for instance, they take an ETA (at the bottom of their range) and heavily modify it and call it a UN275 movement. Looking at it it looks in-house, sounds in-house, but it is just a modified ETA. It is a critical point many miss. Unless you are sure it is in house, dont buy (if you want an in-house that is)

"Mass-produced" is a bit misleading. JUST because it's in-house made, doesn't mean it keeps better time. ETAs are the basis of so many really cool watches, I have a hard time thinking ill of them just because they are the basis for quite a few. Besides, then the rest of us can have neato decorated mechanical watches. On the downside for them though, didn't ETA get all pissy recently (2010?), and stop selling ebauches?

I still want a RGM...

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

These are for new watches, right CUSO? Because the ratings are slightly different in the vintage watch world. For example, vintage Concord and Corum watches are rated quite highly among collectors, much higher than new versions of those brands. Same with vintage Tissot (hard to find) and Movado watches. I'm talking about mechanical watches, not battery-powered watches.

ETA: And the prices for many vintage watches, especially women's watches, are very reasonable, considering the quality of the movements and the cases.

Yes new only, pre owned is a bit different.
You confused me for a second because ETA is what non-in-house (mass produced) movements are called.

Yes, that's true! Sorry about that. I like the value that can be found in pre-owned, and I like owning something that is unique in styling. I also like knowing that the movements in the watches I buy are not ETA ! With so many of the current watch brands -- even the expensive ones -- it's hard to know for sure what the company is producing in-house and what they are buying mass-produced from Swatch, unless you do a fair amount of research. Even brands like Tiffany and Cartier use mass-produced movements. It really pays to educate yourself before you put down $$$ for a watch.

This is so important. Even serious enthusiasts have a hard time determaining in-house on some watches. Like Ulysse Nardin for instance, they take an ETA (at the bottom of their range) and heavily modify it and call it a UN275 movement. Looking at it it looks in-house, sounds in-house, but it is just a modified ETA. It is a critical point many miss. Unless you are sure it is in house, dont buy (if you want an in-house that is)

"Mass-produced" is a bit misleading. JUST because it's in-house made, doesn't mean it keeps better time. ETAs are the basis of so many really cool watches, I have a hard time thinking ill of them just because they are the basis for quite a few. Besides, then the rest of us can have neato decorated mechanical watches. On the downside for them though, didn't ETA get all pissy recently (2010?), and stop selling ebauches?

I still want a RGM...

You are correct on all points. Some ETA's are great. But, in my opinion, more than $4k for an ETA based watch is too much. Below that range, there are some awsome watches with ETA. Bottom line, I like ETA's below 4k, not so much above that (and I am being very genera, but I hope you get my point.)
FYI, I had to cancel my trip to the RGM factory on Monday doe to inclement weather.

 

[jewelerman]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

switch IWC and Frank Muller and put JLC in the beginning of the second tier.

 

[CUSO]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

switch IWC and Frank Muller and put JLC in the beginning of the second tier.

You know what is real funny? I had it switched before I posted then made a last second change

 

[yssie]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

I don't know *anything* about watches at all, besides recognising four or five of those names!

I imagine the watch world is just as complex as the diamond world, but can anyone simplify it to the 4Cs for me? What do you look for, what makes a watch a tier1 vs a tier2 (besides maker reputation, which I guess is a big part of it?)?

 

[Imdanny]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Are these GIA or EGL grades?

The great triumvirate used to be the 2 Swiss watchmakers Patek Phillippe and Vatcheron Constantin (forgetting for a minute about their earlier history) in the early 20th century combined with the Valle de Jour watchmaker Audemars Piquet). 4th, or honorary mention, traditionally went to JaegerLeCoulture, a Valle de Jour company, unrivaled in movements, made movements, which were then refinished by PP, VC, and AP, all, along with having many technical achievements, flattest pocket watch (when Americans were making huge chunks of metal and calling them irons), smalled mechanical movement, etc. Ironically, two of the best four come from the Valle de Jour, which is to say nothing about the fact that many believe the greatest living watchmaker is Philippe Dufour, a Valle de Jour watchmaker. All of these companies (Dufour excluded), without exception, have become so corporate, evaluate each piece, and watch your wallet. Yeah, there needs to be a GIA saying what's what. A lot of people are getting ripped off big time.

 

[ksinger]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

I don't know *anything* about watches at all, besides recognising four or five of those names!

I imagine the watch world is just as complex as the diamond world, but can anyone simplify it to the 4Cs for me? What do you look for, what makes a watch a tier1 vs a tier2 (besides maker reputation, which I guess is a big part of it?)?

'Fraid they're more complex than the diamond world. I'm sure some of the guys here know much more than I do, although I hung out (lurking mostly) on some watch forums, and did a bunch of research for a while. I'm kinda starting to lose some of it...sadly.
Watches are incredibly interesting....and can be equally expensive. Expensive enough to make diamonds look pretty tame in comparison. I kinda got into them because my husband likes mechanical watches. Then I became enthralled myself. Problem is, for women, there are WAY fewer cool mechanicals than for the men. They aren't non-existent, but they are more rare.

 

[missydebby]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

where does Blancpain fit it?

 

[diva rose]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Good post Cuso - I love diamonds but I love watches also - more particularly men's watches especially on my DH.

Here is a link that explains in detail why certain watches are placed in different levels. Hope it helps.
Enjoy

http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/brands.shtml

 

[Imdanny]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

where does Blancpain fit it?

It's a member of the Swatch group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blancpain

It's best, these days, because of all of the corporate consolidation, when you want to know where a brand fits in, to first find out to which corporation the brand belongs, and from there, you can ascertain what their "brand strategy" is (e.g. where they fit in the company's hierarchy, whether they specialize in certain kinds of complications, or craftsmanship, or so on).

I don't have a personal opinion about Blacpain. thepurists.pro (emphasis on the pro) might have a Blancpain forum and timezone.com might.

There was a lot of corporate consolidation in watches in the last twenty years which occurred not entirely without coincidence with the rise of the internet as a global marketing tool.

 

[yssie]

Re: General watch info for people who want more info on horo

Good post Cuso - I love diamonds but I love watches also - more particularly men's watches especially on my DH.

Here is a link that explains in detail why certain watches are placed in different levels. Hope it helps.
Enjoy

http://www.chronocentric.com/watches/brands.shtml

ksinger - go figure

Thanks for posting that link diva rose - great for the real beginners on here like me!