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"Why I Was Wrong About Welfare Reform"

monarch64

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ruby59|1466538936|4046384 said:
to create programs for children, not parents, so that they have food to eat.
___________________________________

In our school system and I am sure many others, children are given free breakfast and free lunch. And then when taken to after care programs they are given dinner as well.

Also, even in our small state we have numerous food pantries run by the various Churches.

What do you think children eat on weekends?
 

ruby59

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Did you not see the reference to food pantries.

And in the summer we have camps run by the different cities. Fees are on a sliding scale. Free to those who cannot afford it. Children are fed there as well.

So as you can see, children are well looked after in my home state.

My son and his wife both work. Do you know what decent day care costs?

And then camp in the summer?

They would love to have a second child but then my DIL would be working to pay for day care. And they cannot afford to live on 1 paycheck. A second child - would love to but cannot afford it.
 

monarch64

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ruby59|1466539592|4046390 said:
Did you not see the reference to food pantries.

And in the summer we have camps run by the different cities. Fees are on a sliding scale. Free to those who cannot afford it. Children are fed there as well.

So as you can see, children are well looked after in my home state.

My son and his wife both work. Do you know what decent day care costs?

And then camp in the summer?

They would love to have a second child but then my DIL would be working to pay for day care. And they cannot afford to live on 1 paycheck. A second child - would love to but cannot afford it.

Honey, you are preaching to the choir. My husband and I are in a similar boat and won't be having another child. I am well aware what daycare and preschool cost. We are probably around the same age as your children. That doesn't change my feelings on letting kids starve. Sounds like everything is taken care of in your state, so why is this even a concern of yours?

What is your solution? Let's just yank every program and let the chips fall where they may?
 

ruby59

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What is your solution? Let's just yank every program and let the chips fall where they may?

___________________________________________________

Obviously we have to take care of the children already born. But we need to get strict with policies for women who keep having children they cannot afford.
 

ksinger

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Unstated core assumptions:

People on public assistance live ONLY down to the lowest expectation, are not capable of living to the highest.

There is only one reliable motivator of people, and it is NOT the carrot.

The people on public assistance are different than me.

All or most people on public assistance can work but don't.

Once a person is on public assistance, they are on it forever.

Most people on public assistance are promiscuous mooching women who pop out babies at a clip.

The people on public assistance made poor choices where I would have made good ones in the same circumstances.

I had zero advantages and made great choices because of ME, and pulled myself up by my bootstraps.

I have no responsibility for anyone except myself and those I call family.

Getting these moochers off any kind of public assistance will reduce the bottom line significantly.


As usual these assumptions are never stated outright, but they scream on through, no matter how genteely one tries to keep them silent.

For people who care about such things, charts can be seen if you go to the article. Data is not yet 4 years old, so we can assume it hasn't changed precipitously.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2012/09/18/who-receives-benefits-from-the-federal-government-in-six-charts/

1) In 2011, about 49 percent of the population lived in a household where at least one member received a direct benefit from the federal government. A big chunk of these households are retirees. And about 27 percent households benefited from a means-tested poverty program. A quick breakdown:

--Last year, about 29 percent of households received Medicare benefits and 31.6 percent received Social Security. (Obviously there's a lot of overlap between those two, since those programs mainly benefit retirees.)

--Meanwhile, about 32 million households, or 27.1 percent, benefited from at least one means-tested poverty program. The biggest benefits here were Medicaid (19.5 percent), food stamps (12.7 percent) and subsidized lunches (11.2 percent). Again, there's some overlap.

--Smaller benefits include public housing (5 percent of households), unemployment (4 percent), and veterans' compensation (2.6 percent). Only 7 percent of households receive some sort of direct cash assistance, such as the TANF welfare program.

2) The number of households receiving government benefits has steadily risen over time, particularly after the financial crisis. The recent increase can partly be chalked up the recession, which threw a lot of people out of work, and partly due to President Obama's stimulus programs, which expanded (among other things) unemployment insurance and Medicaid:


3) Three-quarters of entitlement benefits written into law in the United States go toward the elderly or disabled. That's according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.
(see this link: http://www.cbpp.org/research/contrary-to-entitlement-society-rhetoric-over-nine-tenths-of-entitlement-benefits-go-to?fa=view&id=3677 )
And a big chunk of the rest goes to working households. Only about 9 percent of all entitlement benefits go toward non-elderly, non-disabled households without jobs (and much of that involves health care and unemployment insurance):



CBPP notes that this ratio doesn't change if you include low-income discretionary programs (such as rental assistance or the Women, Infants and Children program) that have to be renewed each year.

4) The bulk of entitlement program spending goes toward the middle class. Again, here's CBPP:

By "entitlements," CBPP is including Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, children's health insurance, food stamps, school lunch programs, welfare, unemployment insurance, the Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Tax Credit. It does not include a few discretionary programs (like rental assistance or low-income energy subsidies) which are aimed more directly at the poor. Those programs, however, are a lot smaller in comparison.

5) In 2010, according to one analysis, 60 percent of Americans were receiving more in government benefits than they paid in taxes. That's according to this analysis from the conservative Tax Foundation.

That year, the report notes, the bottom 10 percent of the population received about $10.44 in benefits for every $1 they paid in taxes. Those in the middle received, on average, $1.15 in benefits for every $1 they paid in taxes. And those in the top 10 percent received about 43 cents in benefits for every $1 they paid in taxes.


6) However, many Americans who receive government benefits in one year go on to pay more taxes in subsequent years. One limitation of the Tax Foundation study is that it doesn't track people over time.

For instance, about half of all Americans with children took advantage of the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) at least once between 1989 and 2006, according to recent research. But most people stayed on for two years or less. And many of those EITC recipients ended up paying more in taxes later on, as they moved up the income ladder:


7) If you expand the definition of "government benefit" to include tax expenditures, many more Americans benefit. There's a long-standing debate about whether to count tax breaks like the mortgage-interest deduction for homeowners or the employer health deduction as a government "benefit." Some economists say that these tax expenditures are no different from actual spending. Others contend that these deductions merely allow people to keep more of their own money.


Yet these tax expenditures added up to about $1.2 trillion in 2011. And they tend to flow disproportionately toward wealthier households:
 

ruby59

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What does bringing in what is wrong in other parts of government have to do with this particular issue?
 

ericad

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Dancing Fire|1466528114|4046322 said:
AGBF|1466527738|4046319 said:
ruby59|1466449802|4045996 said:
And with kids, if I have one and cannot afford it, the government will not let it starve. So they will just take care of it and me.

It is a mindset of some people that is just reinforced every time someone bails them out.

You do realize that in the United States now, as in most of the Third World, no one is bailing people out; they are having children; and the children are starving. Right?

Or did you, also, skip the article I posted?

AGBF :read:
And they are having children, so who is at fault ?

Maybe we should provide free universal birth control to all women...oh wait, we did that but then conservatives cried that they don't feel their tax dollars should be used to subsidize the pill - women should just learn to close their legs, dont'chaknow. Ok, well maybe these women should have easy access to Planned Parenthood, so that they might take the responsibility of obtaining their own family planning care. OH BUT WAIT, the conservatives are shutting down all the clinics they can manage to get their hands on. Hmmmm, ok well we certainly want to make it easy for women to safely terminate unwanted pregnancies, right? Oh wait...

The hypocrisy is so thick I could choke on it.
 

arkieb1

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Blaming, second, third, and fourth generation welfare recipients doesn't change the circumstances of their children, educating them, and demonstrating a better way of life does....

I don't know why anyone would choose to have children while living on the streets or out of a car but that is the reality for a lot of women and men for that matter with children too. The divide in your country between the very rich and the very poor, is unacceptable. It is unacceptable enough to see children living in poverty on less than $2.00 a day in third world countries, however, it should not be occurring at all in countries that can afford better.
 

ksinger

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Since I was apparently unclear, I will speak to the intent of my post above.

The "core assumptions" are the ones I see underpinning the stances of people who constantly condemn single mothers collecting a pittance to feed their children, as the demise of America. They are a group whose size is easy to overstate and then to pick on, because moralizing about sex and punishing those women who break the rules of the patriarchy, has never gone out of vogue.

The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.
 

AGBF

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ksinger|1466678439|4047047 said:
Since I was apparently unclear, I will speak to the intent of my post above.

The "core assumptions" are the ones I see underpinning the stances of people who constantly condemn single mothers collecting a pittance to feed their children, as the demise of America. They are a group whose size is easy to overstate and then to pick on, because moralizing about sex and punishing those women who break the rules of the patriarchy, has never gone out of vogue.

The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.

This is better than that long narrative that was hard to read, K. Can you break this down to one sentence?

Deb
 

AGBF

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ericad|1466658088|4047001 said:
Dancing Fire|1466528114|4046322 said:
AGBF|1466527738|4046319 said:
ruby59|1466449802|4045996 said:
And with kids, if I have one and cannot afford it, the government will not let it starve. So they will just take care of it and me.

It is a mindset of some people that is just reinforced every time someone bails them out.

You do realize that in the United States now, as in most of the Third World, no one is bailing people out; they are having children; and the children are starving. Right?

Or did you, also, skip the article I posted?

AGBF :read:
And they are having children, so who is at fault ?

Maybe we should provide free universal birth control to all women...oh wait, we did that but then conservatives cried that they don't feel their tax dollars should be used to subsidize the pill - women should just learn to close their legs, dont'chaknow. Ok, well maybe these women should have easy access to Planned Parenthood, so that they might take the responsibility of obtaining their own family planning care. OH BUT WAIT, the conservatives are shutting down all the clinics they can manage to get their hands on. Hmmmm, ok well we certainly want to make it easy for women to safely terminate unwanted pregnancies, right? Oh wait...

The hypocrisy is so thick I could choke on it.

Ya think? Brava!

Deb :wavey:
 

ksinger

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AGBF|1466689317|4047077 said:
ksinger|1466678439|4047047 said:
Since I was apparently unclear, I will speak to the intent of my post above.

The "core assumptions" are the ones I see underpinning the stances of people who constantly condemn single mothers collecting a pittance to feed their children, as the demise of America. They are a group whose size is easy to overstate and then to pick on, because moralizing about sex and punishing those women who break the rules of the patriarchy, has never gone out of vogue.

The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.

This is better than that long narrative that was hard to read, K. Can you break this down to one sentence?

Deb

No.
 

Calliecake

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ericad|1466658088|4047001 said:
Dancing Fire|1466528114|4046322 said:
AGBF|1466527738|4046319 said:
ruby59|1466449802|4045996 said:
And with kids, if I have one and cannot afford it, the government will not let it starve. So they will just take care of it and me.

It is a mindset of some people that is just reinforced every time someone bails them out.

You do realize that in the United States now, as in most of the Third World, no one is bailing people out; they are having children; and the children are starving. Right?

Or did you, also, skip the article I posted?

AGBF :read:
And they are having children, so who is at fault ?

Maybe we should provide free universal birth control to all women...oh wait, we did that but then conservatives cried that they don't feel their tax dollars should be used to subsidize the pill - women should just learn to close their legs, dont'chaknow. Ok, well maybe these women should have easy access to Planned Parenthood, so that they might take the responsibility of obtaining their own family planning care. OH BUT WAIT, the conservatives are shutting down all the clinics they can manage to get their hands on. Hmmmm, ok well we certainly want to make it easy for women to safely terminate unwanted pregnancies, right? Oh wait...

The hypocrisy is so thick I could choke on it.



Perfectly put Erica!!!! It angers me to know end the way the republicans put this all on women. Just who do they think the majority of these women are having sex with.... Oh yeah, MEN!!!! It's like the lights are on but know one is home with the republican party.
 

House Cat

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There are so many people who are born into this world with their lives already ruined before they have a chance. I think the people that judge the decisions of "the poor" truly have no idea what it is like to to grow up in a culture where being "bad" is the only way to survive.

I think of the kid who bullied my son the past two years. The 11 year old kid... After many warnings, I had to finally call the police on this child because he wouldn't refrain from threatening to kill my son. His last death threat was so graphic, "I am going to push my thumbs through your eye sockets until I reach your brain and kill you." The summer before the year started, he and his brother vandalized the school and the police were called on him. Finally, during the school year, the kids thought he brought a gun to school (he told the kids he had drugs and pulled out his black cell phone, the kids thought it was a gun) 13 cop cars, a helicopter, school on lockdown, they actually raided his home to try and find a firearm (they didn't.)

He brags about doing drugs. He brags about the violence he inflicts upon others. He brags about anything that makes him look dangerous. This kid has built a reputation of fear among the children and he likes it.

My son's school is a sweet little elementary school, a modified charter where all of the parents are required to volunteer, in the heart of a sweet little suburb. Not an inner city school, not even close.

His mother is a single parent, working three minimum wage jobs to make ends meet. Her boys are unsupervised because she has no other way to keep food in their mouths. She is totally unable to parent these boys in this situation.

The principal told her "something has to give. No other kid has had the police called on them. Her son is headed for something awful." But what is her choice? She has to put a roof over this child's head and food in his mouth.

How, in this situation, will this child thrive? I can tell by the family that he comes from generations of poor, angry, deprived people. The cycle is perpetuating itself. This child literally has no chance at this point unless something drastic happens in his life. He is 11 years old and is making decisions that can potentially ruin his life forever. 11 years old...

Please tell me how you can judge an 11 year old for making these monumentally poor decisions when he was never instilled with the survival instinct to do anything different.

Please tell me that you know that there are MILLIONS of stories just like this one in the inner cities of our nation...with kids, hungry, brains shrinking, no parental care, with gunfire overhead...

Please tell me you get this on a visceral level. If you don't, it is time you hop into your car and drive to your inner city areas and do some volunteering. You need to put your eyes on these children. You need to see the squalor and deprivation they actually live in before you believe they have every opportunity you have, which then leads to good decision making.

Because I am tired of hearing the "shoulds" that are based on magical thinking.
 

AGBF

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ksinger|1466693232|4047096 said:
AGBF|1466689317|4047077 said:
ksinger|1466678439|4047047 said:
Since I was apparently unclear, I will speak to the intent of my post above.

The "core assumptions" are the ones I see underpinning the stances of people who constantly condemn single mothers collecting a pittance to feed their children, as the demise of America. They are a group whose size is easy to overstate and then to pick on, because moralizing about sex and punishing those women who break the rules of the patriarchy, has never gone out of vogue.

The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.

This is better than that long narrative that was hard to read, K. Can you break this down to one sentence?

Deb

No.

K, I almost posted this link for you yesterday when this article appeared. Maybe you would enjoy it today. I hope that you know that what I posted to you above about further reducing the text of your message was tongue in cheek. This article argues (whether or not you agree with its premise), that Americans find it harder to comprehend some of the ideas that Europeans do, based on the bloodier history of the Europeans.

Actually, I'd welcome your opinion of this notion.

Deb

Link...http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/opinion/americas-new-normal.html
 

ruby59

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House Cat,

Children are born into less then stellar households and they manage to survive. For some it makes them work even harder to get out of that life.

The child bullying your son, imo, sounds like a psychopath. In a wealthy household, maybe the parents could have covered better for him. But from what you are describing this sounds like more then being a product of your environment but someone with mental instability.

My question is - why is he still allowed to attend that school? I know in my area, that kid would have been pulled a long time ago or there would have been an immediate school board meeting with parents not leaving until that child did.

Also, why is he being allowed near your child. In our elementary schools, we have several parents in the classroom as well as outside during recess, making sure children are not taunted by others.
 

ruby59

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The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.
________________________________________________________

The picture of the woman in the original link was that of a white woman with blonde hair. And I cut her no slack? So why are you bringing race into it?
 

ruby59

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I don't know why anyone would choose to have children while living on the streets or out of a car b
_______________________________________________

Then why do they continue to get pregnant? There are ways to prevent it even if you have to just stop having intercourse.

Responsible women do whatever they can not to make a situation even worse.
 

ksinger

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ruby59|1466711416|4047230 said:
The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.
________________________________________________________

The picture of the woman in the original link was that of a white woman with blonde hair. And I cut her no slack? So why are you bringing race into it?

Because I'm describing the stereotype, and the stereotype of the "welfare mother" has a color. Period.
 

ruby59

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But apparently it is not my interpretation of it.

And I am pretty much the only person responding on this thread.
 

AGBF

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ruby59|1466714037|4047250 said:
But apparently it is not my interpretation of it.

And I am pretty much the only person responding on this thread.

You are not the only person responding on this thread.
 

arkieb1

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ruby59|1466711628|4047232 said:
I don't know why anyone would choose to have children while living on the streets or out of a car b
_______________________________________________

Then why do they continue to get pregnant? There are ways to prevent it even if you have to just stop having intercourse.

Responsible women do whatever they can not to make a situation even worse.

I grew up in a rural community with a high indigenous population, high unemployment and one of the countries highest rates of teen pregnancies.... It was a rhetorical question to be truthful, but I can share some of my observations with you. In the poor white and black community I grew up in when I was at school the youngest girl to get pregnant in my year was 12 years old. She came from what you would term was a 3rd or 4th generation welfare family. In that community these days that is common place, 12, 13 year olds getting pregnant. Unfortunately since I left there the drug Ice (and many other drugs) have become every day fixtures there, so to say these women aren't being responsible is over simplifying the situation.

It ignores that in some of these communities incest goes on, it ignores that many boys like to drug or get girls drunk and rape them, it ignores the fact that when your caregivers spend every cent they have on drugs (because we don't have food stamps here like you do they get welfare payments) that the last thing you worry about is ensuring that your daughter has birth control pills or any form of protection.

When your mothers or caregivers "friends" come over to your house to "party" as a child you have no idea if you are going to be safe or if you are going to be raped or molested by one of those "friends". I've been a school teacher in a different rural community and could tell you quite detailed examples of where the mothers boyfriends of these kids get Mum drunk and when she is passed out they sexually abuse the kids.....

When I was at University in Sydney I volunteered at a place called kids canteen which was basically a soup kitchen for little kids, because the parents spent every cent as soon as they got it on themselves, and their habits, the children here don't get food at school for free, we simply don't have food programs in many schools, so on their way home from school in that community we used to give them a meal, usually their one and only meal for the day. Many went to school in dirty clothing with no food to eat for the entire day.

One little boy stands out he had cigarette burns covering his body and swear words that had been carved with a knife or something sharp into his forehead and into his back, this was done we think by "an uncle" who used to visit his single mother, and yes it was reported multiple times to the authorities.... he was 5 years old.

So you see the system can be literally children having children, it's not just a matter of good and bad decisions because a molested young girl really doesn't have the ability to make them.

The other observations I make is that in a community like I grew up in young girls get pregnant because welfare is a career, this is something they are trying to change here, there are literally no jobs in that community for most of them to ever have, so what else is there? They have children for something to do, find it's not all sunshine and happiness and some manage to complete schooling but even when they do there are still no jobs, nothing for them there anyway, so it's a situation of hopelessness, unless they are willing to leave that community and start again in a big frightening expensive unforgiving city.

The next observation I make is that currently the schools all over the country but particular in many of these dirt poor communities are lamenting the fact that the children were born to ice and crack addicted mothers, this impacts their brains, so that the teachers are reporting the kids in schools can't focus, can't comprehend let alone do what most of us would term normal school work. These are the next generation of young people/adults many born with addled brains that don't even have the ability to make rational decisions let alone "not to have intercourse" and to use birth control.....

So that is just a small glimpse into why many children in countries as wealthy as yours and mine starve, and why so many of them go on to be trapped in a never ending cycle of poverty and welfare.
 

Dancing Fire

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House Cat|1466701326|4047157 said:
Please tell me that you know that there are MILLIONS of stories just like this one in the inner cities of our nation...with kids, hungry, brains shrinking, no parental care, with gunfire overhead...
Maybe you should Email Prez. Obama this is happening in his home town of Chicago every minute.. :knockout:
 

Dancing Fire

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ruby59|1466711416|4047230 said:
The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.
________________________________________________________

The picture of the woman in the original link was that of a white woman with blonde hair. And I cut her no slack? So why are you bringing race into it?
b/c that is the liberal way of thinking. They don't want the poor to improve their lives. They just wanted them to survive and live in poverty forever.
 

ruby59

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You are not the only person responding on this thread.
_______________________________

With my point of view.
 

AGBF

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ruby59|1466725069|4047327 said:
You are not the only person responding on this thread.
_______________________________

With my point of view.

Who, except you, would have your point of view? Some people might share some of your ideas, but surely your point of view is unique. ;))
 

ksinger

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Dancing Fire|1466724793|4047322 said:
ruby59|1466711416|4047230 said:
The stats were an attempt to show just how big a slice of the entitlement pie, is the "welfare" is being used by those stereotypically black promiscuous single non-working women who pop out babies for that lavish incentive check.
________________________________________________________

The picture of the woman in the original link was that of a white woman with blonde hair. And I cut her no slack? So why are you bringing race into it?
b/c that is the liberal way of thinking. They don't want the poor to improve their lives. They just wanted them to survive and live in poverty forever.


Hardly. That's a conservative thing. How else will you have a huge swath easily of identifiable people to feel morally superior too?
 

ruby59

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Who, except you, would have your point of view? Some people might share some of your ideas, but surely your point of view is unique.
_____________________________________________

Why do you think Trump has managed to come as far as he has?

And to be clear, please understand that personally I wish he would fall off the face of this Earth.

But many others are willing to accept him warts and all because they are sick and tired of the status quo.
 

ruby59

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Arkie, I did not want you to think I was ignoring you because I did not reply, especially after your well thought out post.

I am gathering you are not from the US, but I am not sure which country you come from.

I can only speak about what goes on in the US and in my small corner of it.

I can only refer to what I see as a help mother in my local schools.

And what my husband in his job capacity comes across.

I can only speak of my driving to work each morning and seeing able bodied men and women obviously not doing the same.

And of the latest news about those who use EBT( cards at **** shops and casinos.
 

momhappy

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ruby59|1466539592|4046390 said:
Did you not see the reference to food pantries.

And in the summer we have camps run by the different cities. Fees are on a sliding scale. Free to those who cannot afford it. Children are fed there as well.

So as you can see, children are well looked after in my home state.

My son and his wife both work. Do you know what decent day care costs?

And then camp in the summer?

They would love to have a second child but then my DIL would be working to pay for day care. And they cannot afford to live on 1 paycheck. A second child - would love to but cannot afford it.

We have food pantries in my state that send school kids home with food every weekend during the school year and the same programs feeds them over the summer months too.
 
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