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Trayvon Martin. Why are we not talking about this?

sstephensid|1334980662|3176934 said:
Ugh :rolleyes:

Don't you mean can you imagine a black man killing a biracial Hispanic, not white, 17 year old? But of course, Zimmerman's actual race doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the privileged white is at fault.


Hmph!

Once again, Hispanic is NOT a race! His race is WHITE. His ethnicity is HALF-Hispanic. My god.

From the US Census:
Race and ethnicity are considered separate and distinct identities, with Hispanic or Latino origin asked as a separate question. Thus, in addition to their race or races, all respondents are categorized by membership in ethnicities...."

Anyway, as MSC said, race aside, I'm shocked at what occurred with the bond hearing. I'm trying to avoid saying I shouldn't be surprised, however. I agree with Danny, I find it hard to believe results have been the same the other way around. Although, I would like to. :sick:

And, the new pic from ABC still doesn't absolve Zimmerman, IMO. It's been revealed the boy was found close to his home, suggesting he was, indeed, running away from Zimmerman. If Zimmerman caught up with him, and if the boy did attack him (which I would need to see more evidence to support), it would be self-defense on the boy's part. Therefore, it would STILL not justify him shooting that boy.

Moreover, I wonder why the paramedics didn't feel the need to further address such a 'bloody show'.

Also, Zimmerman claims he thought the boy was only a few years younger than him at the bond hearing. In the 911 tapes, he says he believes for him to be in his late teens. I wish the prosecution would have pointed that out. But, perhaps, they were not expecting the defense to turn a bond hearing into an early start of the trial and PR stunt. :rolleyes:
 

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*Twinkle*twinkle*|1335053590|3177472 said:
sstephensid|1334980662|3176934 said:
Ugh :rolleyes:

Don't you mean can you imagine a black man killing a biracial Hispanic, not white, 17 year old? But of course, Zimmerman's actual race doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the privileged white is at fault.


Hmph!

Once again, Hispanic is NOT a race! His race is WHITE. His ethnicity is HALF-Hispanic. My god.

From the US Census:
Race and ethnicity are considered separate and distinct identities, with Hispanic or Latino origin asked as a separate question. Thus, in addition to their race or races, all respondents are categorized by membership in ethnicities...."

QED.

Thanks, Twinkle.
 

Laila619

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*Twinkle*twinkle*|1335053590|3177472 said:
sstephensid|1334980662|3176934 said:
Ugh :rolleyes:

Don't you mean can you imagine a black man killing a biracial Hispanic, not white, 17 year old? But of course, Zimmerman's actual race doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the privileged white is at fault.


Hmph!

Once again, Hispanic is NOT a race! His race is WHITE. His ethnicity is HALF-Hispanic. My god.

Seriously. Zimmerman is white for all intents and purposes.
 

MissStepcut

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Laila619|1335065705|3177575 said:
*Twinkle*twinkle*|1335053590|3177472 said:
sstephensid|1334980662|3176934 said:
Ugh :rolleyes:

Don't you mean can you imagine a black man killing a biracial Hispanic, not white, 17 year old? But of course, Zimmerman's actual race doesn't matter, all we need to know is that the privileged white is at fault.


Hmph!

Once again, Hispanic is NOT a race! His race is WHITE. His ethnicity is HALF-Hispanic. My god.

Seriously. Zimmerman is white for all intents and purposes.
Not for the intents and purposes of many racists and right wing radicals. I'm surprised to see this point belabored. Maybe there's something I don't know about Floridian culture but in the places I grew up there were plenty of accusations of police bias against Latinos.
 

CaprineSun

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Oh yes, Floridian culture is MUCH different. And the further south in Florida you go, the more prominent it is. The divide between blacks (of all ethnicities) and whites (INCLUDING Hispanics-- if not, especially so) lies deep.

I have friends-- even from the Northeast who won't believe it until they have witnessed it for themselves. It is not the dynamics some see with Mexicans in Texas or California and white "WASPS", etc. Much different. Moreover, many are in high positions of power and money in Florida unlike in other parts of the US. MOST positions of power in South Florida are held by WHITE Hispanics. MOST of the wealth, real estate, riches, etc are owned and controlled by white Hispanics. I've witnessed open bias/discrimination, etc. And it is much talked about.

So, yes the point must be belabored--- especially when people try to use that as a cheap excuse to excuse Zimmerman or the way the law enforcement first handled the case. It makes no difference.

And let us not forget, minorities are not seen as equals in many eyes. For many, blacks are at the bottom of the minority chain (even BLACK Hispanics). And many other minorities also look down on blacks & discriminate to show that they (blacks) are lowest of the low and ensure that their own ethnicity/race is better in the eyes of the 'majority'. This is not only seen in the US, but all over the world.

So, yes, I do believe if it had been a black man who shot a white boy (Hispanic or not), he most likely would not haven gone 45 days free, then granted bond, and further for the low cost his team asked for, WITH privileges to leave the state.

It's crazy that some don't see it. And also crazy that some belittle the point as simply people pulling the 'race' card. It's disrespectful to the people suffering from the bias and minimizing the embarrassing, hurtful experiences. It is REAL. (this is not directed specifically to you, Miss StepCut)

Now saying that, while I do believe race greatly influenced this tragedy and the events immediately after, I DO NOT believe this case is solely about race. I wish it was focused on less and dealt with later. This case is about a boy being wrongly shot dead by a self-appointed, over-zealous, crazed vigilante with a violent history. That, ALONE, should land him in jail and what I want him to go down for.
 

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MissStepcut|1334981662|3176949 said:
Race issues aside, I was seriously surprised that a guy who had a history of assaulting a cop didn't get put through the wringer more. I'm not under the impression that folks with histories like that generally have pleasant encounters with police later. It's one of the factors that's made me give police the benefit of the doubt (aside from the legal issues that I originally brought up and other posters also shared details on).


No kidding. I haven't looked it up (because I assume that since he had a legal gun he wasn't) but was he CONVICTED of assaulting a police officer? Or did they drop the charges? If they dropped the charges, that's too bad because if they had stuck and he'd been convicted he NEVER would have legally been able to have a gun. And again, I strongly believe that if there was NO gun then Trayvon would be alive right now.
 

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Twinkle, it does sound like some culture gap at work here. I grew up in Oregon and Iowa, both places where Hispanics face a lot of discrimination, racial profiling, slurs, etc, so when I see so many people saying that Zimmerman is a "white man" that doesn't mesh with my background and experiences, but I can understand how other regions might look at the circumstances and see them differently than I do.
 

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Does it matter how Hispanic he was? I read one website that said his mother was "of Peruvian descent". He may well have very little Hispanic in him. Plus if his dad was a judge, I doubt he was brought up feeling that he was in a minority. I am sure he grew up feeling white.
 

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GlamMosher|1335171123|3178271 said:
Does it matter how Hispanic he was? I read one website that said his mother was "of Peruvian descent". He may well have very little Hispanic in him. Plus if his dad was a judge, I doubt he was brought up feeling that he was in a minority. I am sure he grew up feeling white.
I'm not sure, because of my own background. So what if his dad was a judge? Maybe the whole discussion doesn't matter at all, but I definitely don't think, for the purposes of "white privilege" or getting special treatment by law enforcement that Hispanic is the same thing as white. At least not where I grew up and live now. Zimmerman is an ethnic minority.
 

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MissStepcut, do you seriously believe that if GZ was black, he would be in the same situation he is now? Whether he shot a white, black or brown boy?
 

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I thought the parade of family members on the phone saying how Zimmerman was absolutely not a violent person was pretty surreal.
 

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GlamMosher|1335173212|3178273 said:
MissStepcut, do you seriously believe that if GZ was black, he would be in the same situation he is now? Whether he shot a white, black or brown boy?

What "situation"??? He's been charged with 2nd degree murder.

He's out on bail because I suspect he has a sympathetic benefactor. The only reason that happened is because this case became notorious and someone took up for him. And the ONLY reason the case became notorious is because GZ is HALF white and shot a young black man. Had Trayvon Martin shot a white man or another black person, we wouldn't be talking about it here because the media wouldn't think it worthy of their time. We wouldn't even know about it.

If you want to use THIS case as an example, why not ponder the question about another well known case where "race" became the issue? If OJ were white, would he have found himself acquitted of the murder of his wife?
 

Maria D

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beebrisk|1335185964|3178327 said:
And the ONLY reason the case became notorious is because GZ is HALF white and shot a young black man. Had Trayvon Martin shot a white man or another black person, we wouldn't be talking about it here because the media wouldn't think it worthy of their time. We wouldn't even know about it.

If you want to use THIS case as an example, why not ponder the question about another well known case where "race" became the issue? If OJ were white, would he have found himself acquitted of the murder of his wife?

Absolutely false. This case became notorious because Zimmerman was not arrested right away after admittedly killing an unarmed man, because he was invoking SYG, and because there was a recording of his phone conversation to police that clearly shows he was the initial aggressor in this conflict. Were only the second two of these facts true but Zimmerman had been arrested right away, this case would not have become the media sensation that it is.

As to your last question, gee maybe if OJ were white he could have disposed of the bodies somewhere and never been considered a suspect * at all *-- like what happened with that white guy Josh Powell who later was free to murder his sons. If you want to keep pondering the race card ask yourself if Powell had been black, would police have bought his alibi that he had gone camping the night his wife went missing? Because the question all along here beebrisk is not about convictions and acquittals. It is about ARRESTS and defendants having their day in a court of law. Pondering race with regard to OJ's acquittal isn't even germane to this discussion.
 

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Maria D|1335198312|3178499 said:
beebrisk|1335185964|3178327 said:
And the ONLY reason the case became notorious is because GZ is HALF white and shot a young black man. Had Trayvon Martin shot a white man or another black person, we wouldn't be talking about it here because the media wouldn't think it worthy of their time. We wouldn't even know about it.

If you want to use THIS case as an example, why not ponder the question about another well known case where "race" became the issue? If OJ were white, would he have found himself acquitted of the murder of his wife?

Absolutely false. This case became notorious because Zimmerman was not arrested right away after admittedly killing an unarmed man, because he was invoking SYG, and because there was a recording of his phone conversation to police that clearly shows he was the initial aggressor in this conflict. Were only the second two of these facts true but Zimmerman had been arrested right away, this case would not have become the media sensation that it is.

As to your last question, gee maybe if OJ were white he could have disposed of the bodies somewhere and never been considered a suspect * at all *-- like what happened with that white guy Josh Powell who later was free to murder his sons. If you want to keep pondering the race card ask yourself if Powell had been black, would police have bought his alibi that he had gone camping the night his wife went missing? Because the question all along here beebrisk is not about convictions and acquittals. It is about ARRESTS and defendants having their day in a court of law. Pondering race with regard to OJ's acquittal isn't even germane to this discussion.

Oh really? I responded to a post that was entirely about the 'race' of the accused.

This thing can be twisted a thousand and one times but there's no convincing me (and many others outside the walls of PS) that the ONE and ONLY reason this case is national news is because of race. NOT because George Zimmerman went 45 days without an arrest, not because of the "SYG" laws and not because of any phone conversation. It was because Martin was black and Zimmerman is not.
 

Maria D

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beebrisk|1335199453|3178522 said:
there's no convincing me (and many others outside the walls of PS) that the ONE and ONLY reason this case is national news is because of race. NOT because George Zimmerman went 45 days without an arrest, not because of the "SYG" laws and not because of any phone conversation.


Good to know.
 

beebrisk

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Maria D|1335201944|3178545 said:
beebrisk|1335199453|3178522 said:
there's no convincing me (and many others outside the walls of PS) that the ONE and ONLY reason this case is national news is because of race. NOT because George Zimmerman went 45 days without an arrest, not because of the "SYG" laws and not because of any phone conversation.


Good to know.


Without facts to back up an assertion that this case gained national notoriety primarily because of SYG, time of arrest, etc., it remains simply an assertion--not fact.

On the other hand, empirical evidence supports the idea that this case is notorious only because of the race of the victim and the accused. If not, then surely there would have been a prior 20-page discourse on SYG laws and the lag time in arresting suspects for various violent crimes. Surely, the national conversation would have led to the subject LONG before the Martin/Zimmerman case.

So sad that political correctness has literally blinded people from seeing the truth. Orwell was brilliantly prophetic : " Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. "
 

MissStepcut

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GlamMosher|1335173212|3178273 said:
MissStepcut, do you seriously believe that if GZ was black, he would be in the same situation he is now? Whether he shot a white, black or brown boy?
I also am not sure what you mean by "situation," but I do think this would be big news, no matter what the colors of the people involved. I think America is more classist than it is racist when it comes to getting outraged about crime. Both Trayvon and Zimmerman were living in a nice, middle class neighborhood that isn't accustomed to gunshots being fired; Zimmerman seems to have been able to delay arrest by invoking the protection of a poorly-conceived law. That's enough, in my opinion, to stir up public interest. Of course Al Sharpton et al may not have found it as compelling a story under other circumstances.
 

MissStepcut

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beebrisk|1335206259|3178597 said:
Maria D|1335201944|3178545 said:
beebrisk|1335199453|3178522 said:
there's no convincing me (and many others outside the walls of PS) that the ONE and ONLY reason this case is national news is because of race. NOT because George Zimmerman went 45 days without an arrest, not because of the "SYG" laws and not because of any phone conversation.


Good to know.


Without facts to back up an assertion that this case gained national notoriety primarily because of SYG, time of arrest, etc., it remains simply an assertion--not fact.

On the other hand, empirical evidence supports the idea that this case is notorious only because of the race of the victim and the accused. If not, then surely there would have been a prior 20-page discourse on SYG laws and the lag time in arresting suspects for various violent crimes. Surely, the national conversation would have led to the subject LONG before the Martin/Zimmerman case.

So sad that political correctness has literally blinded people from seeing the truth. Orwell was brilliantly prophetic : " Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act. "
On the other boards I frequent, and the media outlets I read, that has been the national discussion.

What "empirical evidence" are you citing to?
 

CaprineSun

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Funny, OJ is brought up. (I knew he would be).

But, isn't the mishandling of the case by a racially bias law enforcement group (LAPD), especially Mark Furman, one of the key witnesses for the prosecution, one of the reasons the defense was able to punch holes in the case, therefore, allowing them to run wild with the 'race card' and question the credibility of the evidence said law enforcement group collected that played a vital role in allowing OJ Simpson to be acquitted?

Bringing up OJ Simpson only corroborates the point of racial bias causing mishandling of a case, as likely is a strong possibility in this one.
 

beebrisk

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*Twinkle*twinkle*|1335214889|3178729 said:
Funny, OJ is brought up. (I knew he would be).

But, isn't the mishandling of the case by a racially bias law enforcement group (LAPD), especially Mark Furman, one of the key witnesses for the prosecution, one of the reasons the defense was able to punch holes in the case, therefore, allowing them to run wild with the 'race card' and question the credibility of the evidence said law enforcement group collected that played a vital role in allowing OJ Simpson to be acquitted?

Bringing up OJ Simpson only corroborates the point of racial bias causing mishandling of a case, as likely is a strong possibility in this one.

Yes, there was mishandling, yet in spite of overwhelming DNA evidence he was acquitted. Johnny Cochran didn't "punch holes" in the case as much as he played the race card. Even his own co-council spoke up against him after the trial. And, do you think the law students at Howard University stood up and cheered in unison simply because a man was acquitted of a horrific murder? Watch that tape and then tell me the display of elation was all in the name of "justice" for Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman.

Anyone who says the Martin/Zimmerman case stirred up so much emotion and media attention because of SYG laws, the arrest taking 45 days and Zimmerman making bail, is being patently dishonest about what is actually going on in this country by the sleazy media and race baiting profiteers.
 

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MissStepcut|1335210931|3178666 said:
I also am not sure what you mean by "situation," but I do think this would be big news, no matter what the colors of the people involved.

The situation I meant was not arrested for so long and now granted bail.

We seem to agree on your other point. To me, i don't care what colour skin either of them had - one was supposed to be "watching" the community and shot an unarmed child visiting there. The fact that for so long it appeared he had the law on his side (and still may do so) is what I think has gained the news interest, even here in Australia. The fact that one was black is not really a huge factor here.
 

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GlamMosher|1335228195|3178924 said:
MissStepcut|1335210931|3178666 said:
I also am not sure what you mean by "situation," but I do think this would be big news, no matter what the colors of the people involved.

The situation I meant was not arrested for so long and now granted bail.

We seem to agree on your other point. To me, i don't care what colour skin either of them had - one was supposed to be "watching" the community and shot an unarmed child visiting there. The fact that for so long it appeared he had the law on his side (and still may do so) is what I think has gained the news interest, even here in Australia. The fact that one was black is not really a huge factor here.

That's the point. You don't care. I don't care. Most people don't care about the color of a person's skin. But there are those who do, and they are the one's that tend to profit from promoting racial derision as it serves their particular social or political agenda so well.

Sadly, people are killed at the hands of others' every day in this country. Many take quite some time to be investigated before a suspect is charged. Some of these shootings are perpetrated by people who believe they are defending themselves and/or their property. Very few cases become the focus of such intense national attention and scrutiny. When they do however, it's usually because a well known person is involved or there's some kind of salacious back-story. (The media loves/lives for both of these scenarios) The only thing that sets this particular case apart from the others is that the victim was a 17 year old black male and the suspect is an older non-black male. Thus it became ratings fodder for a callous and calculating media, and a symbol to be used by the race marketers to further their own deep-seated hatred beneath a veil of so-called "justice".
 

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So I have to listen to the tapes and time it myself and I will review them when I can stomach it, but the number I keep reading is 41. 41 seconds during which Trayvon yelled "Help!" in terror. I believe strongly that Zimmerman was menacing Trayvon with Zimmerman's gun, because there's no way to account for those wails unless Trayvon knew he was in imminent danger of his life.

To show just how incompetent the State's witness was at the bail hearing, he was asked if there was any evidence Trayvon was confronted, he was excoriated about why he chose or signed his name to the word confronted, and he answered he did not have any evidence to prove Trayvon was confronted.

But of course there is evidence that Trayvon was confronted. And if I know it, he should have known it.

The witness, the girl Trayvon was talking to on his cellphone tells us what Trayvon was saying at the time. She tells us about the initial confrontation. She knows what was said. And she gives us the evidence that Trayvon was, in her words, pushed, but in any case, Trayvon was impeded, because, as she says, his headset dropped to the ground at just that point and the call went dead. She tried to reach him again but there was no answer. Zimmerman may have pushed him. I think more likely he impeded Trayvon's escape by grabbing him.

Trayvon's mother believes that Trayvon Martin was killed in cold blood. I agree with her. A 17 boy was killed in cold blood and the cops cleared Zimmerman, let me say that again, cleared him, and told him to have a nice life. My concern is the fact Trayvon Martin was murdered in the first place, and then the fact that, as Maria has said, he was not arrested and brought to justice.

Race? That subject doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm white. I grew up in Florida. I hope that none of you believes that Florida is a "race doesn't matter" kind of place. All I'm getting from the right wing talking points I've read on the internet is that the blacks should stop being uppity and STFU. Race was a factor in that murder, and its cover-up. It is what it is, I can't change it. If I could, I would.
 

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GlamMosher|1335228195|3178924 said:
MissStepcut|1335210931|3178666 said:
I also am not sure what you mean by "situation," but I do think this would be big news, no matter what the colors of the people involved.

The situation I meant was not arrested for so long and now granted bail.

We seem to agree on your other point. To me, i don't care what colour skin either of them had - one was supposed to be "watching" the community and shot an unarmed child visiting there. The fact that for so long it appeared he had the law on his side (and still may do so) is what I think has gained the news interest, even here in Australia. The fact that one was black is not really a huge factor here.
I stand by what I said originally and what other posters reinforced: justice was impeded long before Trayvon Martin was shot by the Florida legislature in passing the SYG law, which had flaws that other states' similar laws did not have. I believe the police could not arrest and hold GZ at the time of the incident because of this law and the factual determination the police needed to make before doing so. Quite simply, I think this assumption about the arrest is a failure to understand what SYG really meant.
 

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Imdanny|1335232683|3179004 said:
So I have to listen to the tapes and time it myself and I will review them when I can stomach it, but the number I keep reading is 41. 41 seconds during which Trayvon yelled "Help!" in terror. I believe strongly that Zimmerman was menacing Trayvon with Zimmerman's gun, because there's no way to account for those wails unless Trayvon knew he was in imminent danger of his life.

To just how incompetent the State's witness was at the bail hearing, he was asked if there was any evidence Trayvon was confronted, he was excoriated about why he chose the word confronted, and he answered he did not have any evidence to prove Trayvon was confronted.

But of course there is evidence that Trayvon was confronted. And if I know it, he should have known it.

The witness, the girl Trayvon was talking to on his cellphone tells us what Trayvon was saying at the time. She the initial confrontation. She knows what was said. And she gives us the evidence that Trayavon was, in her words, pushed, but in any case, Trayvon was impeded, because, as she says, his headset dropped to the ground at just that point and the call went dead. Zimmerman may have pushed him. I think more likely he impeded Trayvon's escape by grabbing him.

Trayvon's mother believes that Trayvon Martin was killed in cold blood. I agree with her. A 17 boy was killed in cold blood and the cops cleared him, let me say that again, cleared him, and told him to have a nice life. My concern is the fact Trayvon Martin was murdered in the first place, and then the fact that, as Maria has said, he was not arrested.

Race? That subject doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm white. I grew up in Florida. I hope that none of you believes that Florida is some kind of "race doesn't matter" kind of place. All I'm getting from the right wing talking points I've read on the internet is that the blacks should stop being uppity and STFU. Race was a factor in that murder, and its cover-up. It is what it is, I can't change it. If I could, I would.

"Race was a factor in that murder"
What FACT, specifically, do you base that opinion on? There's no evidence, but you seem so very certain. Interestingly, I've read the opinions of several black pundits (including on the Daily Kos) who are far less sure than you that the shooting was racially motivated. I'm interested to know how you KNOW this.

Is it a FACT that "right wing" bloggers simply want "blacks to STFU"? Can you link to one credible source? I can certainly point to a several online morons who have threatened to hunt GZ down and kill him, but that doesn't mean that "left wingers" want him dead. (Or does it?).

You "think more likely GZ impeded Trayvon's escape." Is that a near-conclusion based on a known FACT or simply....an assumption?

Is it a FACT that the "girl on the cellphone" heard the entire incident, word for word? Scream for scream? Was her version of the event given under oath, in a court of law or recounted in a statement made by the Martin family lawyer?

And really...What exactly is the point of armchair legal analysts continuing to try this case based on nothing that even resembles evidence admissible in an actual courtroom? Justice isn't served that way. Not even in Florida.
 

Imdanny

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beebrisk|1335237229|3179090 said:
Imdanny|1335232683|3179004 said:
So I have to listen to the tapes and time it myself and I will review them when I can stomach it, but the number I keep reading is 41. 41 seconds during which Trayvon yelled "Help!" in terror. I believe strongly that Zimmerman was menacing Trayvon with Zimmerman's gun, because there's no way to account for those wails unless Trayvon knew he was in imminent danger of his life.

To just how incompetent the State's witness was at the bail hearing, he was asked if there was any evidence Trayvon was confronted, he was excoriated about why he chose the word confronted, and he answered he did not have any evidence to prove Trayvon was confronted.

But of course there is evidence that Trayvon was confronted. And if I know it, he should have known it.

The witness, the girl Trayvon was talking to on his cellphone tells us what Trayvon was saying at the time. She the initial confrontation. She knows what was said. And she gives us the evidence that Trayavon was, in her words, pushed, but in any case, Trayvon was impeded, because, as she says, his headset dropped to the ground at just that point and the call went dead. Zimmerman may have pushed him. I think more likely he impeded Trayvon's escape by grabbing him.

Trayvon's mother believes that Trayvon Martin was killed in cold blood. I agree with her. A 17 boy was killed in cold blood and the cops cleared him, let me say that again, cleared him, and told him to have a nice life. My concern is the fact Trayvon Martin was murdered in the first place, and then the fact that, as Maria has said, he was not arrested.

Race? That subject doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm white. I grew up in Florida. I hope that none of you believes that Florida is some kind of "race doesn't matter" kind of place. All I'm getting from the right wing talking points I've read on the internet is that the blacks should stop being uppity and STFU. Race was a factor in that murder, and its cover-up. It is what it is, I can't change it. If I could, I would.

"Race was a factor in that murder"
What FACT, specifically, do you base that opinion on? There's no evidence, but you seem so very certain. Interestingly, I've read the opinions of several black pundits (including on the Daily Kos) who are far less sure than you that the shooting was racially motivated. I'm interested to know how you KNOW this.

The fact that Zimmerman, in his own words, says on the 911 tape, "These *******s always get away." Or was it, "This *******s, they always get away."? Then he says, "effing coons", a racial slur, under his breath, and clearly audible to me.


Is it a FACT that "right wing" bloggers simply want "blacks to STFU"? Can you link to one credible source? I can certainly point to a several online morons who have threatened to hunt GZ down and kill him, but that doesn't mean that "left wingers" want him dead. (Or does it?).

I don't know why you feel compelled to act as Zimmerman's defense lawyer (while decrying others for having an opinion) but I'm going to stop at this point. It is offensive for you to reply to me with, "...but that doesn't mean that "left wingers" want him dead (Or does it?)."

This was a totally unwarranted thing for you to say in reply to me. Have I ever, in any post in this thread, said one word suggesting I want him dead? Show it to me, otherwise please do not address me in this manner again.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Imdanny|1335240569|3179151 said:
beebrisk|1335237229|3179090 said:
Imdanny|1335232683|3179004 said:
So I have to listen to the tapes and time it myself and I will review them when I can stomach it, but the number I keep reading is 41. 41 seconds during which Trayvon yelled "Help!" in terror. I believe strongly that Zimmerman was menacing Trayvon with Zimmerman's gun, because there's no way to account for those wails unless Trayvon knew he was in imminent danger of his life.

To just how incompetent the State's witness was at the bail hearing, he was asked if there was any evidence Trayvon was confronted, he was excoriated about why he chose the word confronted, and he answered he did not have any evidence to prove Trayvon was confronted.

But of course there is evidence that Trayvon was confronted. And if I know it, he should have known it.

The witness, the girl Trayvon was talking to on his cellphone tells us what Trayvon was saying at the time. She the initial confrontation. She knows what was said. And she gives us the evidence that Trayavon was, in her words, pushed, but in any case, Trayvon was impeded, because, as she says, his headset dropped to the ground at just that point and the call went dead. Zimmerman may have pushed him. I think more likely he impeded Trayvon's escape by grabbing him.

Trayvon's mother believes that Trayvon Martin was killed in cold blood. I agree with her. A 17 boy was killed in cold blood and the cops cleared him, let me say that again, cleared him, and told him to have a nice life. My concern is the fact Trayvon Martin was murdered in the first place, and then the fact that, as Maria has said, he was not arrested.

Race? That subject doesn't intimidate me at all. I'm white. I grew up in Florida. I hope that none of you believes that Florida is some kind of "race doesn't matter" kind of place. All I'm getting from the right wing talking points I've read on the internet is that the blacks should stop being uppity and STFU. Race was a factor in that murder, and its cover-up. It is what it is, I can't change it. If I could, I would.

"Race was a factor in that murder"
What FACT, specifically, do you base that opinion on? There's no evidence, but you seem so very certain. Interestingly, I've read the opinions of several black pundits (including on the Daily Kos) who are far less sure than you that the shooting was racially motivated. I'm interested to know how you KNOW this.

The fact that Zimmerman, in his own words, says on the 911 tape, "These *******s always get away." Or was it, "This *******s, they always get away."? Then he says, "effing coons", a racial slur, under his breath, and clearly audible to me.


Is it a FACT that "right wing" bloggers simply want "blacks to STFU"? Can you link to one credible source? I can certainly point to a several online morons who have threatened to hunt GZ down and kill him, but that doesn't mean that "left wingers" want him dead. (Or does it?).

I don't know why you feel compelled to act as Zimmerman's defense lawyer (while decrying others for having an opinion) but I'm going to stop at this point. It is offensive for you to reply to me with, "...but that doesn't mean that "left wingers" want him dead (Or does it?)."

This was a totally unwarranted thing for you to say in reply to me. Have I ever, in any post in this thread, said one word suggesting I want him dead? Show it to me, otherwise please do not address me in this manner again.

That phone call is proof of nothing. It's a phone call. Until it becomes CLEAR what he said and it's analysed by experts in court, I'll reserve MY judgement as to what he said or didn't say.

And while I'm not acting as defense lawyer for GZ, I'm also not going to convict him based on a few Daily Kos blog posts, garbled phone recordings, hearsay from "a girl on a cellphone" recounted by a guy representing the victim's family and certainly not because the "mob" tells me I should.

Finally, I never..ever suggested that YOU want to see Zimmerman dead, any more than I thought you said *I* wanted "blacks to STFU." I was simply pointing out that bias and vitriol comes in all colors, from all sides. Period. I haven't addressed YOU in an unsavory manner. I can appreciate an argument, but it should at least be an honest one.
 

Imdanny

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
6,186
beebrisk|1335242102|3179169 said:
And while I'm not acting as defense lawyer for GZ, I'm also not going to convict him based on a few Daily Kos blog posts, garbled phone recordings, hearsay from "a girl on a cellphone" recounted by a guy representing the victim's family and certainly not because the "mob"

Your derision is remarkable. It's not,"...hearsay from "a girl on a cellphone".

Let's review.

The girl is a witness.

Phone records prove when she was and was not on the phone with Trayvon Martin.

FYI, we have heard from her directly. She was interviewed. I'd have to check but I believe by CBS.

Your claim to be reserving judgment rings hollow.

In fact, your posts tell us that you feel that George Zimmerman is the true victim. In only this most recent post, you claim that there is a "mob" out to get him.

What can I say? You're entitled to believe the right wing talking points about George Zimmerman.
 

Imdanny

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
6,186
There's going to be a rally for Zimmerman.

"Controversial Gainesville pastor Terry Jones plans to hold a rally in Sanford on Saturday in support of George Zimmerman, the man charged in the death of Trayvon Martin.

The rally is planned by Jones's "Stand Up America!" organization, which announced the event on its website under the heading "JUSTICE FOR ZIMMERMAN vs RACIST LYNCH MOB."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-17/news/os-george-zimmerman-terry-jones-rally-20120417_1_pastor-terry-jones-gainesville-pastor-qurans

Zimmerman referred to his "supporters" on his website. I guess it's about time his supporters held a rally.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Imdanny|1335245419|3179198 said:
beebrisk|1335242102|3179169 said:
And while I'm not acting as defense lawyer for GZ, I'm also not going to convict him based on a few Daily Kos blog posts, garbled phone recordings, hearsay from "a girl on a cellphone" recounted by a guy representing the victim's family and certainly not because the "mob"

Your derision is remarkable. It's not,"...hearsay from "a girl on a cellphone".

Let's review.

The girl is a witness.

Phone records prove when she was and was not on the phone with Trayvon Martin.

FYI, we have heard from her directly. She was interviewed. I'd have to check but I believe by CBS.

Your claim to be reserving judgment rings hollow.

In fact, your posts tell us that you feel that George Zimmerman is the true victim. In only this most recent post, you claim that there is a "mob" out to get him.

What can I say? You're entitled to believe the right wing talking points about George Zimmerman.

Wrong.

The MOTHER of the girl was interviewed. I'm not disputing that the girl was on the phone with him. But none of what her mother said or what the girl may have said--to the media!!!--is considered EVIDENCE. If you were on the jury you'd be ordered by the judge to consider ONLY the evidence, as presented in court when making your decision about the fate of another human being...NOT what you may or may not have heard on CBS.

I was specifically referring to corroborated evidence so yes...anything else floating around now is "hearsay".

As for "right wing talking points"--which one exactly am I using to bolster my argument that the man should not be convicted in the court of public opinion? Of course you are entitled to your own opinion, but please stop confusing FACT with spin. Neither you or I actually KNOW the FACTS surrounding this case. If the statement that I reserve judgement rings hollow to you because I am loathe to convict a man based on what I've heard in the media, then so be it. If that somehow "proves" that I am taking up "right wing talking points", then so be it. Making an effort to be impartial until the FACTS are known is actually the right thing to do-- not the "right wing" thing to do.

I do not believe GZ is the true victim. I do believe he's entitled to a FAIR trial. But it appears that you've tried and convicted him with testimony that hasn't been given and that no one has yet to corroborate--under oath, in a court of law. You may not like it, but under Federal law, he does have a set of prescribed RIGHTS.
 
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