Trayvon Martin. Why are we not talking about this?

Written by Gypsy » April 2nd, 2012, 10:08 pm:
Defining every situation that involves a black person and a non-black person as being a race issue without sufficient evidence is furthering racism. In fact, it's the definition of BEING a racist.

Needless to say, I feel that the situation of Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin is far from the situation you just described!!!!!!!!!


The wounds have been examined Deb, you just keep picking at it and all you are doing is keeping it from scabbing and healing. You aren't doing anything to help it at all. In fact, all you are doing is delaying any chance of healing and probably introducing new bacteria to the wound that makes the wound worse.

That is a matter of opinion. Since I just stated above that that I thought there was a wound full of pus, to state categorically that it has been examined (without offering any evidence of what you are talking about), makes further discussion difficult! I had been referring to the Zimmerman/Martin confrontation which is still under investigation and, thus, can hardly be deemed having been thoroughly "examined"!


Forgiveness doesn't come from imagining, creating and finding new things to fight over. If your children are fighting for years. Do you continuously remind them of their differences or do you encourage them to find their similarities?

Same thing here. Instead of just saying that this a a horrible HUMAN tragedy that we should all mourn because it happened you are creating division.


Who are we to forgive a sin visited upon Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman? Read The Sunflower before you give anyone directions on whom he must forgive and when it it is best to forgive. That story, which I used in my teaching, must give every thinking person pause about the nature of forgiveness. In the case of George Zimmerman, I do not see that he even acknowledges any racism in his actions. So there can be no forgiveness of racism if there is no acknowledgement of it, let alone repentance for it.


And the fact that you can't even see this is why you are part of the problem. And will continue to be, clearly. And that's just sad.

I am sorry you feel this way about me.

Written by AGBF » April 3rd, 2012, 8:58 am:

Written by lulu » April 3rd, 2012, 5:16 am:
Gypsy, how dare you accuse someone of wanting to help their country! You take that back!

Words matter to me. When people misquote what I say, I often correct it. It's a pity that you need to ridicule me for that.

AGBF

I'm ridiculing you for taking umbrage at the suggestion that you might be interested in helping your country. Just so we're clear on my exact intent. Because words are important.

Written by AGBF » April 2nd, 2012, 9:34 pm:

Written by smitcompton » April 2nd, 2012, 9:55 am:
I think I have to correct what i said about the Fed overturning Florida law. I think Deb was saying that Zimmerman could be charged under the Federal Civil Rights laws if he is not arrested and convicted under the Florida statutes. I don't think the Fed gov't charges would change Florida laws. Just a different charge. Sorry Deb--did not explain properly the first time.

That's right on the money. Thanks, Annette.

Gypsy, you wrote, among other things:

"why do you have to bring race into it at all."

"I'm sorry but you are part of the problem."

and

"You want to help this country? Help heal. Don't help it break apart further".

My answer is that I am not "bringing race into" this issue; this issue is all about race. I dispute that I am "part of the problem" since I define the problem as racism (on the part of George Zimmerman and those who would allow him to get away with the the killing of Trayvon Martin) and I am not furthering racism. I do not recall saying that I wanted to help this country. I am not sure where you got that tidbit. If I did want to help the country, however, I would certainly not try to "heal" a wound that was still festering and oozing pus by placing a bandaid over it. I would insist that the wound be opened, examined, cleansed, and dosed with antiseptic before I bound the skin around it shut.

Deb/AGBF

Of all the posts I've read here, this one I find heartbreaking, actually.

What this tells me is that the media has won the war on the hearts and minds of the public at large, convincing so many that we are a "festering" mess of hate without a single chance at redemption. This is the scenario that they propagate every single day by shoving cameras in the faces of race-baiting ideologues like Sharpton and Jackson, carefully and purposely editing 911 tapes made by George Zimmerman and upholding the notion that as a country, we are inherently evil and cannot, or will not, learn to see past each other's color.

Gypsy is right, the issue has been opened and examined. But sadly, it will never be "cleansed" until those that benefit by promoting the concept of "victimhood" to each new generation, suddenly discover some integrity and honesty.

Written by beebrisk » April 3rd, 2012, 9:24 am:

Of all the posts I've read here, this one I find heartbreaking, actually.

What this tells me is that the media has won the war on the hearts and minds of the public at large, convincing so many that we are a "festering" mess of hate without a single chance at redemption. This is the scenario that they propagate every single day by shoving cameras in the faces of race-baiting ideologues like Sharpton and Jackson, carefully and purposely editing 911 tapes made by George Zimmerman and upholding the notion that as a country, we are inherently evil and cannot, or will not, learn to see past each other's color.

Luckily, I can console you, beebrisk! There is no need for such despair! For my posting was not tainted by Al Sharpton, the Reverend Jackson, the playing of 911 tapes on the media, or anything said on television!

I do not watch television! At all!!! I read newspapers and use the computer to supplement my reading by providing me with with print media to which I do not already subscribe. SoI reached my sad opinions completely unsullied by all the influences you fear have been ruining the United States!

AGBF

Written by AGBF » April 3rd, 2012, 9:43 am:

Written by beebrisk » April 3rd, 2012, 9:24 am:

Of all the posts I've read here, this one I find heartbreaking, actually.

What this tells me is that the media has won the war on the hearts and minds of the public at large, convincing so many that we are a "festering" mess of hate without a single chance at redemption. This is the scenario that they propagate every single day by shoving cameras in the faces of race-baiting ideologues like Sharpton and Jackson, carefully and purposely editing 911 tapes made by George Zimmerman and upholding the notion that as a country, we are inherently evil and cannot, or will not, learn to see past each other's color.

Luckily, I can console you, beebrisk! There is no need for such despair! For my posting was not tainted by Al Sharpton, the Reverend Jackson, the playing of 911 tapes on the media, or anything said on television!

I do not watch television! At all!!! I read newspapers and use the computer to supplement my reading by providing me with with print media to which I do not already subscribe. SoI reached my sad opinions completely unsullied by all the influences you fear have been ruining the United States!

AGBF

Glad to hear TV isn't a part of your daily routine. It's mostly rubbish, I know. But since when does the "media" exclude newspapers and internet??

I find it fascinating that anyone truly believes that talking about a problem somehow perpetuates it. Does talking about cancer somehow perpetuate cancer? Because it seems that once cancer stopped being whispered about, awareness and screenings increased, and so did survival rates.

If we all pretend racism doesn't exist, does it magically go away? How exactly does that work?

Written by thing2of2 » April 3rd, 2012, 10:38 am:I find it fascinating that anyone truly believes that talking about a problem somehow perpetuates it. Does talking about cancer somehow perpetuate cancer? Because it seems that once cancer stopped being whispered about, awareness and screenings increased, and so did survival rates.

If we all pretend racism doesn't exist, does it magically go away? How exactly does that work?

I don't believe talking about a problem perpetuates it. I believe self-serving histrionics influence people to believe there is a greater problem than actually exists. I believe there are people that benefit not from talking about issues, but from twisting them to suit their own agendas.

Of course racism exists. It's just not the reason for every ill in society. And, I will reserve judgement that it had anything to do with Trayvon Martin's death until (and if) I learn more about George Zimmerman's motives than the media (newspapers and internet included!) would have me believe.

we each come to this with our own history....and that history as well as our educating ourselves re issues and problems will find itself playing out on these pages.

Deb, please know i value your posting and know that i support your view. i just don't have it in me yet to participate in this thread. Rusty's passing pales in comparison to what the Martin family must be going through and yet i cannot find it in myself to jump into this again. given how i feel about the passing of a cat, i applaud the Martin family for not letting this go.

i will say this, though: blaming Tray for wearing a hoodie is like blaming a female rape victim for wearing a skirt.

This thread has been remarkable on many levels and I have been riveted. Until recent postings, it has been a model of civil discourse. It is extremely difficult to discuss an issue as charged as the Trayvon Martin case without emotions escalating. But now, thirteen pages in, it has become snarky and close to personal attacks of those with differing perspectives. Can you back off, please? I'm not saying don't post, but don't go after each other. We are all long term members of good standing in this community.

As for racism in this case, it is really hard not to bring our own life experiences to bare on this case. Right or wrong, those of us who've been impacted by prejudice and racism are more likely to see it in this situation. And from that perspective, its interesting to note that quite a few members responding to this thread - including me - have seen enough instances of racism in our lives to bring it to the table here. You may be right, Beebrisk and Gypsy, and this may be a simple case of self defense, or even just a guy losing it temporarily and shooting someone because he felt threatened, and at that point, would've felt threatened by a man of any skin color. But we don't know. In the meantime, we will all continue to have our perspectives and speak what we speculate is the truth. Your advice, Gypsy, to reserve judgement until all the facts are in is just really, really difficult in such a charged circumstance. I'm not saying we shouldn't wait, I'm saying we probably won't, particularly with the media providing new information daily, even if some of it is "Gotcha journalism."

Hi,

Let me begin by saying certainly parts of the truth have been written by each perpective on this situation. I agree that race is thrown about for too much for everything. An example: A new black family moved in 8 doors down from me. I was sitting outside and the dad walked past my house coming home from work and we spoke. In the course of the conversation he told me he thought our block was very racist. I was very surprised and told him so, as we have a varied population that encompasses all groups.(I mean all)
So he explained. His son, 16 yrs old, a good kid, was told by a neighbor to stop playing his music so loud. This particular neighbor is so unprejudiced, I actually smiled. I tried to explain it had nothing to do with race, everything to do with a teenage boy playing his music too loud for our neighborhood. I gave him examples of my own son being told by neighbors to lower the volumne. I felt his interpretation was wrong. He listened and I hope saw things differently.

Now, this situation is not about loud music. A boy was killed. We owe it to the mother and father to make sure it was not due to racism. We owe it to ourselves. Because if it is still happening, it must be brought to our attention. Not because Al Sharpten or Jesse Jackson say so, but because we want to continue to build a better country, and if you sweep it under the rug, you won't get there.
I think we have come a long way, but I think of the suffering of that mother to find her son killed without reason is more than she can bear. I want to make sure for her and us, that it is not race related. Let them investigate.

This is for BeeBrisk. Friday is an important day for you isn't it. Consider it again.


Annette

Written by smitcompton » April 3rd, 2012, 1:45 pm:Hi,

Let me begin by saying certainly parts of the truth have been written by each perpective on this situation. I agree that race is thrown about for too much for everything. An example: A new black family moved in 8 doors down from me. I was sitting outside and the dad walked past my house coming home from work and we spoke. In the course of the conversation he told me he thought our block was very racist. I was very surprised and told him so, as we have a varied population that encompasses all groups.(I mean all)
So he explained. His son, 16 yrs old, a good kid, was told by a neighbor to stop playing his music so loud. This particular neighbor is so unprejudiced, I actually smiled. I tried to explain it had nothing to do with race, everything to do with a teenage boy playing his music too loud for our neighborhood. I gave him examples of my own son being told by neighbors to lower the volumne. I felt his interpretation was wrong. He listened and I hope saw things differently.

Now, this situation is not about loud music. A boy was killed. We owe it to the mother and father to make sure it was not due to racism. We owe it to ourselves. Because if it is still happening, it must be brought to our attention. Not because Al Sharpten or Jesse Jackson say so, but because we want to continue to build a better country, and if you sweep it under the rug, you won't get there.
I think we have come a long way, but I think of the suffering of that mother to find her son killed without reason is more than she can bear. I want to make sure for her and us, that it is not race related. Let them investigate.

This is for BeeBrisk. Friday is an important day for you isn't it. Consider it again.
Annette

Huh??

Written by minousbijoux » April 3rd, 2012, 12:07 pm:This thread has been remarkable on many levels and I have been riveted. Until recent postings, it has been a model of civil discourse. It is extremely difficult to discuss an issue as charged as the Trayvon Martin case without emotions escalating. But now, thirteen pages in, it has become snarky and close to personal attacks of those with differing perspectives. Can you back off, please? I'm not saying don't post, but don't go after each other. We are all long term members of good standing in this community.

As for racism in this case, it is really hard not to bring our own life experiences to bare on this case. Right or wrong, those of us who've been impacted by prejudice and racism are more likely to see it in this situation. And from that perspective, its interesting to note that quite a few members responding to this thread - including me - have seen enough instances of racism in our lives to bring it to the table here. You may be right, Beebrisk and Gypsy, and this may be a simple case of self defense, or even just a guy losing it temporarily and shooting someone because he felt threatened, and at that point, would've felt threatened by a man of any skin color. But we don't know. In the meantime, we will all continue to have our perspectives and speak what we speculate is the truth. Your advice, Gypsy, to reserve judgement until all the facts are in is just really, really difficult in such a charged circumstance. I'm not saying we shouldn't wait, I'm saying we probably won't, particularly with the media providing new information daily, even if some of it is "Gotcha journalism."

This is what is so frustrating about trying to discuss and or debate an issue here. (see highlighted)

Not once did I say I believe this was merely a "simple case of self defense, or even just a guy losing it...etc). Not once.

What I did say is that I will reserve judgement until I know the FACTS. What I did say is that I am appalled at the reaction of the media and others who seek to use this tragedy for political and/or social gains. What I did express is my dissatisfaction and mistrust of the media (in all forms) and my uneasiness with the pubic outcry against this case when similar crimes go virtually unnoticed because they don't promote a particular worldview.

I NEVER said I thought it was a case of a guy who felt threatened, who snapped and "lost it", or even an act of self-defense. Never.

In other words, if there's going to be HONEST conversation here, then let's pay attention to what people have to say, without assumptions and let's not twist words around to make a point.

As far as not heeding Gypsy's advice to reserve judgement ("..it's really difficult...we probably won't...") well, that's certainly your choice.
But understand that by your own words you have just admitted, by definition, to being prejudiced.

Written by beebrisk » April 3rd, 2012, 2:17 pm:As far as not heeding Gypsy's advice to reserve judgement ("..it's really difficult...we probably won't...") well, that's certainly your choice.
But understand that by your own words you have just admitted, by definition, to being prejudiced.

That's exactly my point. In fact I said it a lot more clearly than that if you had been paying attention:
"And from that perspective, its interesting to note that quite a few members responding to this thread - including me - have seen enough instances of racism in our lives to bring it to the table here."

The difference between us is that I admit my biases. I'm not sure the same can be said about everyone here.

Written by minousbijoux » April 3rd, 2012, 4:09 pm:

Written by beebrisk » April 3rd, 2012, 2:17 pm:As far as not heeding Gypsy's advice to reserve judgement ("..it's really difficult...we probably won't...") well, that's certainly your choice.
But understand that by your own words you have just admitted, by definition, to being prejudiced.

That's exactly my point. In fact I said it a lot more clearly than that if you had been paying attention:
"And from that perspective, its interesting to note that quite a few members responding to this thread - including me - have seen enough instances of racism in our lives to bring it to the table here."

The difference between us is that I admit my biases. I'm not sure the same can be said about everyone here.

I wasn't aware that reserving judgement is actually "biased".

Reread some of the posts about the press/media and tell me who's not biased.

Written by minousbijoux » April 3rd, 2012, 4:32 pm:Reread some of the posts about the press/media and tell me who's not biased.

If you mean I'm concerned about the bias of the press/media? Then yes, correct you are! I think most people who are hungry for information want real truth and want the facts--not stories clouded by a particular left/right viewpoint or political agenda. Hard to find these days, though.

I commend Deb"s posts in this thread with which I agree in content and tone. If agreeing with Deb is wrong I don't want to be right.

Deb,

I am reminded of a line from Shakespeare's sonnets:

"How with this rage shall beauty hold a plea
whose action is no stronger than a flower?"

Kind regards,

Danny

Written by AGBF » April 3rd, 2012, 9:14 am:

Written by Gypsy » April 2nd, 2012, 10:08 pm:
Defining every situation that involves a black person and a non-black person as being a race issue without sufficient evidence is furthering racism. In fact, it's the definition of BEING a racist.

Needless to say, I feel that the situation of Mr. Zimmerman and Mr. Martin is far from the situation you just described!!!!!!!!!


The wounds have been examined Deb, you just keep picking at it and all you are doing is keeping it from scabbing and healing. You aren't doing anything to help it at all. In fact, all you are doing is delaying any chance of healing and probably introducing new bacteria to the wound that makes the wound worse.

That is a matter of opinion. Since I just stated above that that I thought there was a wound full of pus, to state categorically that it has been examined (without offering any evidence of what you are talking about), makes further discussion difficult! I had been referring to the Zimmerman/Martin confrontation which is still under investigation and, thus, can hardly be deemed having been thoroughly "examined"!


Forgiveness doesn't come from imagining, creating and finding new things to fight over. If your children are fighting for years. Do you continuously remind them of their differences or do you encourage them to find their similarities?

Same thing here. Instead of just saying that this a a horrible HUMAN tragedy that we should all mourn because it happened you are creating division.


Who are we to forgive a sin visited upon Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman? Read The Sunflower before you give anyone directions on whom he must forgive and when it it is best to forgive. That story, which I used in my teaching, must give every thinking person pause about the nature of forgiveness. In the case of George Zimmerman, I do not see that he even acknowledges any racism in his actions. So there can be no forgiveness of racism if there is no acknowledgement of it, let alone repentance for it.


And the fact that you can't even see this is why you are part of the problem. And will continue to be, clearly. And that's just sad.

I am sorry you feel this way about me.

Deb, this thread is a hard one.

Here's where I think we diverge.

I have my own opinion about what happened. But I am keeping an open mind and willing to change that opinion if new facts come to light that contradict what I believe.

Here's what my personal opinion is, based on what I have seen, heard and read. I realize 100% that the information I am basing this on has been filtered through the media.

George was predisposed to violence. He had an assault charge. And there are other reports of his temper.
George was paranoid. He called 911 at the drop of a hat (he has some 40 something 911 calls on record).
George was a vigilante. He was on the neighborhood watch because he felt that he needed to act and that he was entitled to act.
George was frustrated about the crime occurring in his neighborhood and was not satisified with the police's handling of this issue, because there were no convictions or arrests to appease him.
As a result George needed a scapegoat for his anger, frustration, paranoia, and and outlet for his violence.

I think he saw a kid walking at night and assumed that kid was up to no good. He felt empowered by his position on the neighborhood watch to report the incident. He decided that he could not wait until the police arrived to allow them to handle the situation, and decided to pursue the kid himself to catch him so that *he* could be the vehicle for justice.

I think that George thought the kid might have a weapon of his own.
I think Trayvon did attack George IN SELF DEFENSE, because he was terrified of this crazy man following him. I don't think it was a 'bad' fight. I think George was just surprised, hit his head and had the wind knocked out of him.
I think George interpreted that attack as heightening the threat level he already believed existed and allowed himself to decide that shooting this kid was justified.
I think the kid ended up dead as a result of a horrible set of assumptions, predispositions, and events.

My opinion, is based on the quality of George's character and on the events that occurred not on anyone's skin color.

George could be purple and so could Trayvon and I think the same series of events would have happened. I don't think that by changing Travyon into a white kid that he would be alive. THAT is why I think it is inappropriate to call this a race crime. I acknowledge that racial stereotypes may have been a factor in George's belief that Trayvon was up to no good. But I don't believe it is the reason for the kid's death. I think that is pretty solidly a result of George's predisposition to violence, the state of Florida's asinine decision to allow this man to have a gun, and his own vigilante entitlement.

I do think that many people are assuming that JUST BECAUSE George was not black, lived in Sanford that he was also a racist. I have not seen one piece of evidence that proves or even corroborates this assumption.

How is it okay for you to say that George: Based on where HE lives, what color HIS skin is that he is a racist. But it's NOT okay for George to think that just because Trayvon is black and walking around at night that he is a criminal.

No. NEITHER of those is right. THAT'S why I said that you are part of the problem. To me it looks like you are doing the same thing you are preaching against and you don't even see it. I think that's reverse racism and I don't think it helps anyone or anything heal. To me, you are judging George on the color of his skin and the location of his house instead of on the content of his character and on his actual actions. And I just don't think that's okay.

As for wounds and examining and puss. We're going to have to agree to disagree about where racial tensions are in this country and how much has been accomplished and what needs to be done going forward. I don't think we are ever going to agree on that.

Written by minousbijoux » April 3rd, 2012, 12:07 pm:This thread has been remarkable on many levels and I have been riveted. Until recent postings, it has been a model of civil discourse. It is extremely difficult to discuss an issue as charged as the Trayvon Martin case without emotions escalating. But now, thirteen pages in, it has become snarky and close to personal attacks of those with differing perspectives. Can you back off, please? I'm not saying don't post, but don't go after each other. We are all long term members of good standing in this community.

As for racism in this case, it is really hard not to bring our own life experiences to bare on this case. Right or wrong, those of us who've been impacted by prejudice and racism are more likely to see it in this situation. And from that perspective, its interesting to note that quite a few members responding to this thread - including me - have seen enough instances of racism in our lives to bring it to the table here. You may be right, Beebrisk and Gypsy, and this may be a simple case of self defense, or even just a guy losing it temporarily and shooting someone because he felt threatened, and at that point, would've felt threatened by a man of any skin color. But we don't know. In the meantime, we will all continue to have our perspectives and speak what we speculate is the truth. Your advice, Gypsy, to reserve judgement until all the facts are in is just really, really difficult in such a charged circumstance. I'm not saying we shouldn't wait, I'm saying we probably won't, particularly with the media providing new information daily, even if some of it is "Gotcha journalism."

MB. I appreciate your post and agree with it very much, especially the part in bold. But I would like to correct one thing. *I* do not believe , nor have I stated anywhere in this thread, that I think this is a simple case of anything.

I have stated is this:
A tragedy occurred and we do not know the facts as they are being fed to us by tainted sources.
The majority of the American public, including people posting in this thread, don't understand how our justice system works.
Until and unless there is solid proof that there was an actual crime I don't believe that law enforcement should jump the gun and arrest someone.
There appears to be a lack of proof which is why no one has been arrested yet.
The laws of Florida may need to be revised.
And that I don't believe alleged (but unproven) racism is the reason why that boy is dead (it may have been why he was considered suspicious but I don't believe it is why he is dead).

What I have also said is... IF this ends up in criminal court the jury will be asked to see things from George's perspective and to evaluate whether or not that perspective was reasonable. And for GEORGE this may be a simple case of self defense. And whether or not that belief is reasonable is a question for a jury to answer. Not for me and not for the media.

Has it been a month now and we really still don't know the facts?? I am very sorry for Trayvon's family...

Deb's comment to me sounded like why put a band aid on something that is infected... Makes sense to me..

Don't put a band aid on this, cleanse it...

I don't speak for Deb, she is way to eloquent for me...

But that's what I took from it.

I was raised and brought up by dear sweet Elizabeth who died this past October. She taught me all about racism, and what she went through being a black woman in the ghetto. So it isn't foreign to me.

I hope the truth comes out, at some point.

Written by thing2of2 » April 3rd, 2012, 10:38 am:I find it fascinating that anyone truly believes that talking about a problem somehow perpetuates it. Does talking about cancer somehow perpetuate cancer? Because it seems that once cancer stopped being whispered about, awareness and screenings increased, and so did survival rates.

If we all pretend racism doesn't exist, does it magically go away? How exactly does that work?

Thing you are misinterpreting what I am saying, since I assume this is about me, in part.

I don't think discourse itself is harmful. I think assumption, misrepresentations and lack of knowledge about how our justice system works is harmful. And I think mob mentalities are harmful.

And yes, I think that all of the above perpetuates injustice.

This isn't cancer. It isn't a tangible thing like that. I think the analogy is not a good one. You can'e biopsy George and say yup, there's racism.... There is no proof of racism even being a factor in the kids death. So how is it helpful to use reverse racism and profile George by the color of his skin and the location of his house. And how does that serve justice?

People are making up or misrepresenting 'facts' , getting the public riled up for ratings, and then talking about violating a man's right to be free from unreasonable arrest and persecution. That is not justice. Neither is assuming a man is a bigot because he is not black in lives in Sanford.

It saddens me that people think victim's rights outweigh those of the accused. They don't. And none of you would want to live in a society that they did. In our country the rights are meant to be are balanced the best that they can be. And that's how it should be.

We need proof, real proof, in this country to convict. Even when the accusation of racism there has to be proof. At least that is the case in court. It is sad that it's not the case in the media or in the minds of certain people in this thread.

Ladies, personal attacks will NOT be tolerated and will be promptly removed. If I see more personal attacks in this thread it will be closed and further actions taken if necessary.

Keep it civil if you want to be able to have these interesting discussions on PS.

Sorry Ella, I was provoking. I recognize that and will refrain in the future.

Written by Gypsy » April 3rd, 2012, 8:23 pm:

Written by thing2of2 » April 3rd, 2012, 10:38 am:I find it fascinating that anyone truly believes that talking about a problem somehow perpetuates it. Does talking about cancer somehow perpetuate cancer? Because it seems that once cancer stopped being whispered about, awareness and screenings increased, and so did survival rates.

If we all pretend racism doesn't exist, does it magically go away? How exactly does that work?

Thing you are misinterpreting what I am saying, since I assume this is about me, in part.

I don't think discourse itself is harmful. I think assumption, misrepresentations and lack of knowledge about how our justice system works is harmful. And I think mob mentalities are harmful.

And yes, I think that all of the above perpetuates injustice.

This isn't cancer. It isn't a tangible thing like that. I think the analogy is not a good one. You can'e biopsy George and say yup, there's racism.... There is no proof of racism even being a factor in the kids death. So how is it helpful to use reverse racism and profile George by the color of his skin and the location of his house. And how does that serve justice?

People are making up or misrepresenting 'facts' , getting the public riled up for ratings, and then talking about violating a man's right to be free from unreasonable arrest and persecution. That is not justice. Neither is assuming a man is a bigot because he is not black in lives in Sanford.

It saddens me that people think victim's rights outweigh those of the accused. They don't. And none of you would want to live in a society that they did. In our country the rights are meant to be are balanced the best that they can be. And that's how it should be.

We need proof, real proof, in this country to convict. Even when the accusation of racism there has to be proof. At least that is the case in court. It is sad that it's not the case in the media or in the minds of certain people in this thread.

Most people in this thread have not gone on and on about racism being a factor in the kids, um, not exactly "death" but at the very least manslaughter. And yes, I use that term as an ignorant layperson without the deep understanding of manslaughter that someone who passed the bar would have. Because this is a discussion forum on a diamond site, not the Supreme Court. People discussing whatever here aren't causing any of the harm that you talk about. We are not violating a man's right to be free from UNREASONABLE arrest. Those of us who disagree with you think it would be more than reasonable to arrest a man whose immunity claims do not stand up to our interpretation of this stand your ground law. I get it, you think your interpretation counts and ours doesn't because you are educated about the law and we are not. Then do yourself a favor Gypsy and argue this out in a forum of like-educated people. I'm sure you'll still find plenty who disagree with you to argue with and the conversation will be more stimulating for you because you can argue solely on the basis of law and not have to keep trying to inform a group who is not really interested in changing their opinions, but in stating them.

Yes, we need real proof to convict. But the way it looks now, with this law, is that they can't even arrest. No prosecution = no conviction. That's what's upsetting to people and that's why Deb is talking about some other way to get to Zimmerman -- since this SYG law is ridiculous, an end run must be made. They got Capone on tax evasion, didn't they? I'm sure there were plenty of people and corporations evading far more taxes than poor accused Al.

I don't really care if Zimmerman was more inclined to follow Martin around because Martin was black. Zimmerman killed Martin, SYG (stupid as it is) should not apply because even if Zimmerman was attacked, MARTIN was the one standing his ground not Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have been arrested already and if SYG gets in the way of this I personally have no problem with an end run of calling it racism to facilitate an arrest that should have happened already. Not a conviction, an arrest that leads to prosecution that leads to Zimmerman's day in real court, not the court of public opinion. My opinions, right or wrong, have no bearing on this or any other case. If they make you sad, go hug one of your kitties, you'll feel better.

Written by Kaleigh » April 3rd, 2012, 8:09 pm:Has it been a month now and we really still don't know the facts?? I am very sorry for Trayvon's family...

Deb's comment to me sounded like why put a band aid on something that is infected... Makes sense to me..

Don't put a band aid on this, cleanse it...

I don't speak for Deb, she is way to eloquent for me...

But that's what I took from it.

I was raised and brought up by dear sweet Elizabeth who died this past October. She taught me all about racism, and what she went through being a black woman in the ghetto. So it isn't foreign to me.

I hope the truth comes out, at some point.

Well said Kaleigh, and I totally agree with the bolded part!

I believe Zimmerman is a racist. I believe it because in the 911 call he mutters the slur "effing coons". His so called friend Oliver had two explanations. He said that his teenage daughter told him "coons" was a term of endearment. He said when questioned further that people in Louisana call themselves "coons". In point of fact a slur is what a person mutters under their breath. A slur is a perjoritive against a group of people. The slur "coons" goes back to slavery times. A "coon" is a slave who has escaped. This particular slur used to be used with another phrase: "coon hunting" meaning to hunt down escaped slaves. Zimmerman used the slur "coons". This tells me that he is a racist. It would be like someone using a slur against me. It is not me projecting something on to someone else when that happens. It is the opposite. Zimmerman also said, "These asholes always get away." He also had a history of racial profiling with his long list of 911 calls. The FBI and the Department of Justice are investigating these matters at this time. I'm glad about this. I hope and expect that these matters will be investigated thouoghly.

Written by Maria D » April 3rd, 2012, 9:24 pm:

Written by Gypsy » April 3rd, 2012, 8:23 pm:

Written by thing2of2 » April 3rd, 2012, 10:38 am:I find it fascinating that anyone truly believes that talking about a problem somehow perpetuates it. Does talking about cancer somehow perpetuate cancer? Because it seems that once cancer stopped being whispered about, awareness and screenings increased, and so did survival rates.

If we all pretend racism doesn't exist, does it magically go away? How exactly does that work?

Thing you are misinterpreting what I am saying, since I assume this is about me, in part.

I don't think discourse itself is harmful. I think assumption, misrepresentations and lack of knowledge about how our justice system works is harmful. And I think mob mentalities are harmful.

And yes, I think that all of the above perpetuates injustice.

This isn't cancer. It isn't a tangible thing like that. I think the analogy is not a good one. You can'e biopsy George and say yup, there's racism.... There is no proof of racism even being a factor in the kids death. So how is it helpful to use reverse racism and profile George by the color of his skin and the location of his house. And how does that serve justice?

People are making up or misrepresenting 'facts' , getting the public riled up for ratings, and then talking about violating a man's right to be free from unreasonable arrest and persecution. That is not justice. Neither is assuming a man is a bigot because he is not black in lives in Sanford.

It saddens me that people think victim's rights outweigh those of the accused. They don't. And none of you would want to live in a society that they did. In our country the rights are meant to be are balanced the best that they can be. And that's how it should be.

We need proof, real proof, in this country to convict. Even when the accusation of racism there has to be proof. At least that is the case in court. It is sad that it's not the case in the media or in the minds of certain people in this thread.

Most people in this thread have not gone on and on about racism being a factor in the kids, um, not exactly "death" but at the very least manslaughter. And yes, I use that term as an ignorant layperson without the deep understanding of manslaughter that someone who passed the bar would have. Because this is a discussion forum on a diamond site, not the Supreme Court. People discussing whatever here aren't causing any of the harm that you talk about. We are not violating a man's right to be free from UNREASONABLE arrest. Those of us who disagree with you think it would be more than reasonable to arrest a man whose immunity claims do not stand up to our interpretation of this stand your ground law. I get it, you think your interpretation counts and ours doesn't because you are educated about the law and we are not. Then do yourself a favor Gypsy and argue this out in a forum of like-educated people. I'm sure you'll still find plenty who disagree with you to argue with and the conversation will be more stimulating for you because you can argue solely on the basis of law and not have to keep trying to inform a group who is not really interested in changing their opinions, but in stating them.

Yes, we need real proof to convict. But the way it looks now, with this law, is that they can't even arrest. No prosecution = no conviction. That's what's upsetting to people and that's why Deb is talking about some other way to get to Zimmerman -- since this SYG law is ridiculous, an end run must be made. They got Capone on tax evasion, didn't they? I'm sure there were plenty of people and corporations evading far more taxes than poor accused Al.

I don't really care if Zimmerman was more inclined to follow Martin around because Martin was black. Zimmerman killed Martin, SYG (stupid as it is) should not apply because even if Zimmerman was attacked, MARTIN was the one standing his ground not Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have been arrested already and if SYG gets in the way of this I personally have no problem with an end run of calling it racism to facilitate an arrest that should have happened already. Not a conviction, an arrest that leads to prosecution that leads to Zimmerman's day in real court, not the court of public opinion. My opinions, right or wrong, have no bearing on this or any other case. If they make you sad, go hug one of your kitties, you'll feel better.

Wow.

If it is real it changes the story a lot:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-police-report-reveals-crime-scene-details-175656087.html
But given all the fake stuff the media created in this case to stir stuff up, I view it as fake until there is official confirmation it is real.

Written by Maria D » April 3rd, 2012, 9:24 pm:
Most people in this thread have not gone on and on about racism being a factor in the kids, um, not exactly "death" but at the very least manslaughter. And yes, I use that term as an ignorant layperson without the deep understanding of manslaughter that someone who passed the bar would have. Because this is a discussion forum on a diamond site, not the Supreme Court. People discussing whatever here aren't causing any of the harm that you talk about. We are not violating a man's right to be free from UNREASONABLE arrest. Those of us who disagree with you think it would be more than reasonable to arrest a man whose immunity claims do not stand up to our interpretation of this stand your ground law. I get it, you think your interpretation counts and ours doesn't because you are educated about the law and we are not. Then do yourself a favor Gypsy and argue this out in a forum of like-educated people. I'm sure you'll still find plenty who disagree with you to argue with and the conversation will be more stimulating for you because you can argue solely on the basis of law and not have to keep trying to inform a group who is not really interested in changing their opinions, but in stating them.

Yes, we need real proof to convict. But the way it looks now, with this law, is that they can't even arrest. No prosecution = no conviction. That's what's upsetting to people and that's why Deb is talking about some other way to get to Zimmerman -- since this SYG law is ridiculous, an end run must be made. They got Capone on tax evasion, didn't they? I'm sure there were plenty of people and corporations evading far more taxes than poor accused Al.

I don't really care if Zimmerman was more inclined to follow Martin around because Martin was black. Zimmerman killed Martin, SYG (stupid as it is) should not apply because even if Zimmerman was attacked, MARTIN was the one standing his ground not Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have been arrested already and if SYG gets in the way of this I personally have no problem with an end run of calling it racism to facilitate an arrest that should have happened already. Not a conviction, an arrest that leads to prosecution that leads to Zimmerman's day in real court, not the court of public opinion. My opinions, right or wrong, have no bearing on this or any other case. If they make you sad, go hug one of your kitties, you'll feel better.

Maria,
I was responding directly to Thing's post. Which referenced racism in particular. Which is why I was talking about racism.

This is plain disturbing:
" Yes, we need real proof to convict. But the way it looks now, with this law, is that they can't even arrest. No prosecution = no conviction. That's what's upsetting to people and that's why Deb is talking about some other way to get to Zimmerman -- since this SYG law is ridiculous, an end run must be made. They got Capone on tax evasion, didn't they? I'm sure there were plenty of people and corporations evading far more taxes than poor accused Al."

And end run? Around this guy's civil liberties. Really? Do you realize that's what might be advocating? An "end run" around this Florida law may not be possible without violating George's civil liberties. Would that be okay with you?

Al Capone was actually guilty of tax evasion-- irrelevant how many others were doing it and didn't get caught. There was evidence of the crime and it wasn't manufactured by the media or anyone else. The FBI didn't cook books for Capone. He broke the law. There's no proof Zimmerman is guilty of anything Deb is saying. So what you are saying is that would be morally right to try to convict George based on fabricated racism charges.

I have news for you... if that's where "stating your opinion" rather than actually trying to learn something gets you... I'm glad I'm posting here. As an American citizen and yes, a former member of the bar, it is my duty to protect civil liberties. Even when it's unpopular. If for members here are advocating "an end run' around anyone's civil liberties is okay, then THIS is exactly where I need to be posting. Because someone needs to stand against the mob mentality.

Written by Imdanny » April 3rd, 2012, 9:45 pm:I believe Zimmerman is a racist. I believe it because in the 911 call he mutters the slur "effing coons". His so called friend Oliver had two explanations. He said that his teenage daughter told him "coons" was a term of endearment. He said when questioned further that people in Louisana call themselves "coons". In point of fact a slur is what a person mutters under their breath. A slur is a perjoritive against a group of people. The slur "coons" goes back to slavery times. A "coon" is a slave who has escaped. This particular slur used to be used with another phrase: "coon hunting" meaning to hunt down escaped slaves. Zimmerman used the slur "coons". This tells me that he is a racist. It would be like someone using a slur against me. It is not me projecting something on to someone else when that happens. It is the opposite. Zimmerman also said, "These asholes always get away." He also had a history of racial profiling with his long list of 911 calls. The FBI and the Department of Justice are investigating these matters at this time. I'm glad about this. I hope and expect that these matters will be investigated thouoghly.

Danny, I think Oliver is an idiot. And I did not hear coons or goons or tools (which is what other people are saying the word is) or even an ooo sound. I hear punks. I keep listening to it and that's what I hear. And I'm not alone, I've seen others and heard others say that "punk" is what they hear. All the credible news stations that have say is that word is incomprehensible. It's a bad piece of evidence because it is garbled and open for interpretation. And worse for me, it doesn't match what I hear and I believe what I hear over the interpretation of Oliver or the media.

If it wasn't against forum rules to link to other forums I could post a bunch of threads and polls where other people clearly hear punks.

Here's one place that's saying the guy was talking about the weather for goodness sakes: http://jneilschulman.rationalreview.com/2012/03/what-george-zimmerman-really-said/

So I can't count this as evidence of racism. Because all it's evidence of, to me, is the fact that George mumbles.