The U.S. must pass a new law stating that...

[Dancing Fire]

I would welcome people of great character from anywhere. The problem is, the ones who seem to want to come here in the manner that they do are not the ones that I would consider as having "great character". Strikes me more as the get the free benefits and cater to me type of character. And ehhh it's too hard so I'll just bypass having to actually show that I WANT to be here, I'll force my way in regardless. That's like ehhhh it's too hard to be a dr so you just MAKE me one.

And if you're coming from a crappy place that you don't want to be? Please don't then come here and try to make this country the same way as the one you just ran away from. If you can work THAT hard to change the way our country is, maybe you should use those powers in the country you're from to make it better.

Or work to make OUR country, your new HOME, better. That's a crazy idea I know.

Yup!...agreed with your post packrat..

 

[Gypsy]

My mother and I came over on a Visa, and stayed. Yes, we immediately applied for a green card. But back then it was much easier to get one. Were we ever truly illegal? No. But still, we were supposed to visit and leave. Like we had before. And we didn't.

But I do see how desperation can make even people of great character do things that are maybe legally problematic, while morally still okay.

If everything that is illegal immoral? No. So do you judge people on their character based on legality or morality?

 

[Jambalaya]

I would welcome people of great character from anywhere. The problem is, the ones who seem to want to come here in the manner that they do are not the ones that I would consider as having "great character". Strikes me more as the get the free benefits and cater to me type of character. And ehhh it's too hard so I'll just bypass having to actually show that I WANT to be here, I'll force my way in regardless. That's like ehhhh it's too hard to be a dr so you just MAKE me one.

And if you're coming from a crappy place that you don't want to be? Please don't then come here and try to make this country the same way as the one you just ran away from. If you can work THAT hard to change the way our country is, maybe you should use those powers in the country you're from to make it better.

Or work to make OUR country, your new HOME, better. That's a crazy idea I know.

I suspect that if you're from a country where free speech gets you killed and/or you live under a murderous dictator, it's not that easy. Especially if you're a woman and can't get an education, or contraception. You're probably too busy having a baby every year to change anything.

I haven't seen any evidence that the majority of people who come from countries where life is awful in different ways want to make the US the same. Mostly, it seems to me that first-generation immigrants are happy to be in the US and, having benefited so directly from being in the Land of the Free, are grateful and show this through their famous work ethic.

I guess I feel that there's nothing special about me because I'm in America; and I feel that I could SO SO easily have been born in a country where life is very different, and that I'm not in America because I'm any better than people in those countries. I just won a birth lottery. So I feel we should share, (provided they live by the rules and pay their taxes, and don't commit crime). A neighbor of mine is a violin-playing architect, but her parents were first-generation immigrants from China as it happens, and they run a convenience store. Now their daughter is a good educated hardworking American, and in the majority of cases, that's the way it works out.

 

[packrat]

I would welcome people of great character from anywhere. The problem is, the ones who seem to want to come here in the manner that they do are not the ones that I would consider as having "great character".

I know that it is not statistically significant, but since I have been teaching a citizenship class I have met a number of people whom I consider to have sterling characters. All of them have wanted very much to become United States citizens and all of them have worked very hard on a difficult curriculum in an attempt to master it. I have seen many of them go from being totally unable to pronounce a date like "1776" to being able to master all dates they see written in a paragraph. I have had a grown man stay after class to clean my blackboard for me out of gratitude. (Well, it was a whiteboard.) I have seen them moved as they practice saying, "The Pledge of Allegiance". And they have to fork over $700.00 to take a test they may not pass. Some of them are older than I am! They are my heroes!!!

Deb

And those are the people who WANT to be here. Those are the people WE WANT to be here. They're the ones who are going to TRY and they're the ones who are going to embrace the United States as their new HOME.

There's a difference, and I'm not speaking about those people. I welcome people who arrive and wave and say Woo hoo helloooo I'm here in America what do I need to do to become an AMERICAN CITIZEN? Not the ones who come under cover of darkness and then demand we adjust to them so they don't feel uncomfortable or out of place. And really...shouldn't *some* things BE hard? Not mind melting I'd rather be dead in a third world country than live here type hard---but seriously. Being a Dr is hard, yes? Not every joe blow gets to be a Dr just cuz he puts a white coat on. There's a level of distinction there and I feel if America is such a kick ass place to live then maybe you need to pass our tests and be of good moral fiber. If we let people come here and automatically be considered a citizen w/out having anything to attain that level of distinction, that being a citizen is really worth it, then what's the point, really? Open citizenship for anybody and everybody regardless what kind/type person they are? We've got enough craptastic citizens that were born here-we don't need more.

 

[Jambalaya]

My mother and I came over on a Visa, and stayed. Yes, we immediately applied for a green card. But back then it was much easier to get one. Were we ever truly illegal? No. But still, we were supposed to visit and leave. Like we had before. And we didn't.

But I do see how desperation can make even people of great character do things that are maybe legally problematic, while morally still okay.

If everything that is illegal immoral? No. So do you judge people on their character based on legality or morality?

It's been said on here that "birth tourism" is dishonest and fraudulent although it's legal. With regard to choosing between being legal and being moral, in reference to what Momhappy said, I want to make the point that when your life is as miserable as some people's lives are in some countries, if there's a legal way out you don't really have the luxury of adhering to the highest morals. So the choice becomes, do I stay in this terrible place where my human rights are violated when there is a legal way out, in order to feel morally correct?

Bibi Aisha, the Afghan girl who was forced into marriage, escaped and had her nose cut off (she was famously on the cover of TIME magazine) came to America for treatment, and she still lives here. I wish she'd had a chance to escape legally somehow to the States before she had to go through that, not after. If there had been a legal means to do so, I doubt she'd fret too much about feeling dishonest and fraudulent. At least she'd still have a nose.

I think it's helpful to reflect upon just how awful some people's lives really are are in some countries, and how lucky we are.

 

[packrat]

I agree. I think we're incredibly fortunate. Those that are coming b/c it is a life and death situation, that's a little different than I just want my baby to be an American citizen, or I'll just sneak across b/c I can make more money here, or not work and they'll take care of me regardless if I'm a productive member of society. Those that come here b/c of a life and death situation are probably more apt to want to embrace the United States as a new home.

And cripes when it comes right down to it, I don't give a rats ass how you come here IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE AN AMERICAN AND BE A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF AMERICAN SOCIETY. That's it. That's all I ask. I don't think that's asking too much.

 

[Jambalaya]

I agree. I think we're incredibly fortunate. Those that are coming b/c it is a life and death situation, that's a little different than I just want my baby to be an American citizen, or I'll just sneak across b/c I can make more money here, or not work and they'll take care of me regardless if I'm a productive member of society. Those that come here b/c of a life and death situation are probably more apt to want to embrace the United States as a new home.

And cripes when it comes right down to it, I don't give a rats a$$ how you come here IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE AN AMERICAN AND BE A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF AMERICAN SOCIETY. That's it. That's all I ask. I don't think that's asking too much.

Oh yeah, I don't agree with freeloaders, not at all. I think some of the European countries with huge welfare states get a lot of people going there who don't want to work.

But China has a terrible human rights record. It's not a free country. With the Chinese birthing houses, they're still trying to get away from a controlled world into the free world, away from Communism. So I see them as wanting American citizenship as a way out. I don't see it as them thinking " well, life is just fine here but I'll grab American citizenship anyways."

An example of freedom here that they don't have in China is that, if they make a new life in America, they'll be able to make their own decisions about how many children they want, away from China's one-child policy.

I just feel sorry for them, and you know, I think most people don't want to leave their own culture, their own families, and their own ways to come to somewhere where they're on their own and can't speak the language and have no roots, so I feel that, more often than not, such actions (like birth tourism) are born of misery/desperation. Even wealthy Chinese are under the Communist party's control. It's all very well having money but that's no good if you can't even have a longed-for second or third child.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="Jambalaya|


An example of freedom here that they don't have in China is that, if they make a new life in America, they'll be able to make their own decisions about how many children they want, away from China's one-child policy.

I just feel sorry for them, and you know, I think most people don't want to leave their own culture, their own families, and their own ways to come to somewhere where they're on their own and can't speak the language and have no roots, so I feel that, more often than not, such actions (like birth tourism) are born of misery/desperation. Even wealthy Chinese are under the Communist party's control. It's all very well having money but that's no good if you can't even have a longed-for second or third child.[/quote]



I think they can now.

 

[missy]

My mother and I came over on a Visa, and stayed. Yes, we immediately applied for a green card. But back then it was much easier to get one. Were we ever truly illegal? No. But still, we were supposed to visit and leave. Like we had before. And we didn't.

But I do see how desperation can make even people of great character do things that are maybe legally problematic, while morally still okay.

If everything that is illegal immoral? No. So do you judge people on their character based on legality or morality?

Most definitely the latter. Morality trumps legality IMO. Always.

 

[momhappy]

[quote="Jambalaya|


An example of freedom here that they don't have in China is that, if they make a new life in America, they'll be able to make their own decisions about how many children they want, away from China's one-child policy.

I just feel sorry for them, and you know, I think most people don't want to leave their own culture, their own families, and their own ways to come to somewhere where they're on their own and can't speak the language and have no roots, so I feel that, more often than not, such actions (like birth tourism) are born of misery/desperation. Even wealthy Chinese are under the Communist party's control. It's all very well having money but that's no good if you can't even have a longed-for second or third child.

I think they can now.[/quote]

Yes, you're right DF. Under the new policy, many couples in China can have a second child.

 

[Jambalaya]

The one-child policy has been somewhat relaxed, and there are exceptions. It doesn't apply to ethnic minorities, and you can have a second child if one parent is an only child or if the first child is a girl.

The point is that the government decides how many children you may have. Not you. It's not a free country.

So I can understand how someone would want their child to have an opportunity to live in the free world, legally - an opportunity that they didn't have themselves. People try to do their best for their children.

The babies who are born in America are then taken home to grow up in China, albeit with American citizenship. I wonder how many actually leave their country and come to the States when they're grown up. Perhaps you've met the love of your life in your own country and you have great friends, and don't want to leave. It would be interesting to know how many take up the opportunity.

In addition, there is currently nothing illegal about foreigners giving birth in the States, so I don't think the government should be harassing people who aren't doing anything wrong in the eyes of the law. I think that the States should just stop conferring citizenship if they don't want to do it anymore. Then they'd have a case against birth tourism. After all, it's the government that keeps giving it away! The United States freely confers citizenship with all its rights and privileges to anyone born here, and the government should take responsibility for that. If they don't like the birthing houses then just change the law, but they shouldn't blame people for trying - people who don't have the same freedoms as us.

 

[Dancing Fire]

The babies who are born in America are then taken home to grow up in China, albeit with American citizenship. I wonder how many actually leave their country and come to the States when they're grown up. Perhaps you've met the love of your life in your own country and you have great friends, and don't want to leave. It would be interesting to know how many take up the opportunity.

Depends on the political situation in China. This is their insurance policy just incase China returns to full communism.