Terrorist Attack in Paris Kills 12 People

[mochiko42]

Been following the news of this the past two days. I have no words... I wish there wasn't so much hatred in the world. [emoji22]

 

[Matata]

News reports that both kouachi brothers are dead. Kudos to the French police for their no-nonsense and effective approach to the situation.

What a sad world extremists have created.

 

[AGBF]

News reports that both kouachi brothers are dead. Kudos to the French police for their no-nonsense and effective approach to the situation.

From"The New York Times":

"PARIS — French police on Friday killed the two brothers suspected of murdering 12 people at a Paris newspaper on Wednesday and freed his hostage unharmed, the authorities said. The police launched a simultaneous raid on a kosher supermarket in Paris where an alleged associate of the brothers was holding an unnamed number of hostages. At least some of hostages escaped unharmed, according to the police.

Shortly after 5 p.m., explosions and gunfire were heard at a printing plant outside of Paris where the two brothers were holding a single hostage.

Moments later, gunfire erupted at a kosher supermarket on the eastern end of Paris where an alleged associate of the brothers was holding an unknown number of hostages. One woman was seen running from the market as heavily-armed police officers moved in, according to The A.P.

The gunman in the supermarket had threatened to kill his hostages if the brothers, holding their hostage at a printing plant near Dammartin-en-Goële, outside of Paris, were attacked."

Link to More News...http://news.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/09/updates-on-the-manhunt-for-the-charlie-hebdo-suspects/#kouachi-brothers-killed-as-police-storm-2-sites-2

 

[AGBF]

I just did a search in French and found a news source that said that four hostages who had been held at the grocery store are dead and that at least one among the hostages seen being released had been wounded. Of course all of this is in transition and I cannot vouch for the accuracy of the report, but I am just anxious for news, so I thought I would share what I had found.

Deb/AGBF

 

[AGBF]

"The New York Times" has finally admitted to three hostages being killed, although not four. Debka.com, the Israeli news source, is saying four were killed. The title of this thread is already wrong. There have been at least three terrorist attacks now, even by the most conservative estimate, and it appears that at least 16 people-maybe more-have been killed. (I am referring to attacks in other parts of France on police personnel.)

Deb/AGBF

 

[TooPatient]

"The New York Times" has finally admitted to three hostages being killed, although not four. Debka.com, the Israeli news source, is saying four were killed. The title of this thread is already wrong. There have been at least three terrorist attacks now, even by the most conservative estimate, and it appears that at least 16 people-maybe more-have been killed. (I am referring to attacks in other parts of France on police personnel.)

Deb/AGBF

Another that may or may not be related -- hostages in jewelry store. Just brief mention. I think (but can't confirm) it is over with no dead.

The groceryand deli hostage situations had two dead police also. Unless those were separate?

So horrible. So much going on and such unclear news. I hope the police can stop any remaining terrorists quickly and with no more loss of life.

 

[JaneSmith]

I was saddened to read of retaliation attacks in Paris against innocent Muslims.

The terrorists must be pleased with that. They want to create dissension, trouble, unrest, and make religions hate each other. Co-existing in peace would defeat those aims.

It is important to remember that the vast majority of Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving, innocent people. Extremist madmen are the problem, not Islam or its sane, normal followers.

I have always suspected that terrorism is nothing to do with religion whatsoever, but just an excuse for crazy, unhinged, deeply disturbed sociopathic murderers to kill people. They kill because they are totally insane, not because they are religious. If religions didn't exist, I highly doubt that these people would be loving, normal people living peaceful, productive lives. They are rotten to the core. I feel sad for those whose faith matters to them that these terrorists have made Islam such a hated religion. Observant Muslims must be terribly afraid to go out after attacks like this, (seeing as their mode of dress/hair etc often marks them out as Muslim). I feel sorry for them, especially the ones who are experiencing retribution for terrible crimes that they had nothing to do with.

No, no, a thousand times no. Do not suggest for a moment that people who target Mohammad-drawing cartoonists and shout 'Allahu akbar' as they shoot them to death are not even tangentially religiously motivated. History is awash in the blood spilled by the religious righteous.

The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.
Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing..."
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm



The motivation and desire to cast such people as somehow 'other', to make them a different category of human, is very common. To remove people who kill from descriptions one might give oneself is to remove the burden of a frightening conclusion: these are humans not so different from us.
The nazi officers who ran the concentrations camps, many had families and were good to their children. Hitler even gave the kiddies the odd present and bounced them on his knee. One high ranking officer brought his daughter to his concentration camp to show off his garden. Some of those children still love their fathers.
It is too easy to simply write off murderous horror as the purview of the 'less than human'. Blaming insanity only further stigmatises the mentally ill, and lends nothing of value to the discussion.

 

[AGBF]

I was saddened to read of retaliation attacks in Paris against innocent Muslims.

...​

It is important to remember that the vast majority of Muslims are ordinary, peace-loving, innocent people. Extremist madmen are the problem, not Islam or its sane, normal followers.

I have always suspected that terrorism is nothing to do with religion whatsoever

No, no, a thousand times no.

There are two ideas being expressed here by JanesJewels. I agree with one and completely disgree with the other. The one I disagree with happens to be the one with which Jane Smith also profoundly disagrees.

One idea is that there are many peaceful Muslims and that it is a shame to see them unfairly targeted because of terrorists. I completely agree with that idea.

I have written here before of how exemplary the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire was as a bastion of freedom of religion at a time when Muslims and Jews had to flee the Spanish Inquisition. My Sephardic Jewish husband's family lived within the Ottoman Empire for centuries, enjoying its religious tolerance. The Muslim religion itself, is no more to blame, than the "Christian religion" or the "Jewish religion". However, atrocities have been committed in the name of all three.

The other idea is that terrorism has nothing to do with religion. I completely disagree with this as does Jane Smith. I see religion as being at the root of a huge amount of death of and destruction that has taken part over the centuries, and not only in the West. I have told anecdotes here on Pricescope about how, as a high school history teacher, I taught about the early Greeks and Romans through the Vietnam War in two years. One anecdote was that one of my more innocent Christian students didn't want to hear that Christianity spread among the poor in the Roman Empire because it offered them hope. I told her to wait until she was a sophomore and learned that Catholics burned Lutherans at the stake; that Anglicans burned Catholics at the stake; and that Lutherans burned Calvinists at the stake. The Renaissance, Reformation, and Counter-Reformation were not bloodless, you know!

I will not continue this theme here unless someone else wants to do so, but I can certainly do so. The Crusades are one example of terrorism based on religion besides the ones I mentioned already. And what about the Jews?

Deb/AGBF

 

[Ella]

A reminder ladies, no religious debate on Pricescope. Please keep any discussion away from that so this thread can remain.

 

[AGBF]

A reminder ladies, no religious debate on Pricescope. Please keep any discussion away from that so this thread can remain.

It is such a balancing act, Ella. I strive to follow the Pricescope rules at all times. I will never debate one religion's merits against those of another. When one is discussing a current event of great import, however, sometimes alluding to history-including the role of the Church at the time-is helpful in providing insight. I promise to watch my step, however. And I do know the consequences of failing to do so. Thank you for your leeway thus far.

Deb

 

[JaneSmith]

One idea is that there are many peaceful Muslims and that it is a shame to see them unfairly targeted because of terrorists. I completely agree with that idea.

Indeed. It is exactly like what happened in the US post 9/11. Religious hatred turned into racial profiling and even Sikhs were killed by the ignorant who thought they were Muslim.
A more heartening reaction in Australia (a country not known for its racial tolerance) after the Sydney cafe terrorist attacks was the #I'llridewithyou movement.


Ella, I know that events in the world such as these bump up against PS rules, thank you for giving us a forum for discussion.

 

[VRBeauty]

Folk singer John McCutcheon has written a very powerful song about the Charlie Hebdo attack that he sang on public interest show today. The show (which is consistently good, by the way) airs on Capital Public Radio in the Sacramento region. The song is well worth a listen, and starts at about 11:00 in the segment:

http://www.capradio.org/news/insight/2015/01/12/insight-011215d/

Direct link to the song (I think the sound quality might be better on the original link):
https://soundcloud.com/capradiomusic/john-mccutcheon-je-suis-charlie-live-on-insight

 

[AGBF]

Thank you for posting the song. I just came from reading abut the French Jews who are considering a move to Israel because they feel unsafe in France, though, and I do not know if that sanguine song reflects the reality in France. At least for some of the people most vulnerable to terrorist attacks. It is easy to write a song saying that one is not afraid if one is safe in the United States while the attacks are going on in Paris. And easy to say that one is not afraid if one is not in the group most targeted for terrorism.

I like folk songs. I understand his intent. Somehow it didn't rub me the right way. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this. We can certainly agree to differ. I think that this entire issue has very much disturbed me.

Deb/AGBF

Link to article on topic...http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/13/world/europe/fear-on-rise-jews-in-france-weigh-an-exit.html?_r=0&gwh=727B53DC4672381B0C3984DDE28DFB73&gwt=pay&assetType=nyt_now

 

[telephone89]

http://www.salon.com/2014/11/23/karen_armstrong_sam_harris_anti_islam_talk_fills_me_with_despair/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

This article raises an important point - the terrorists are committing these acts in the name of god, but are then using it to push their own political agenda. It seems like they are using religion as a guise, because that will be acceptable to more people of their religion. The people in other middle eastern countries may not agree with their political agenda, but they can behind violence in the name of religion.

I also heard a disturbing news story about pakistan celbrating the deaths of the terrorists, and having a celebratory funeral for them. One of their politicians said something like 'anyone who disrespects Mohammed disrepects islam' and that the terrorists were just in their cause.

 

[CRYSTAL24K]

I have been following this story since it first broke and was not yet confirmed. This is such a terrible and senseless tragedy. My heart breaks for the family and friends of those killed.