Relationship question

[packrat]

I have a question. It's not about me and JD, it's about people we know. I don't know how to phrase everything here so if it gets rambly, I am sorry.

How do you handle it when you have a couple in the family where you feel that one is abusive to the other? Never in front of anyone of course, all behind closed doors. It has been physical (pushing) one time. The rest is verbal/mental/emotional. We have talked and talked and talked until we're blue in the face, but we've been told "I don't want a failed marriage". There are no kids.

I think sometimes, well, fine, then you can just learn to live w/your choice then, and quit venting to us about it b/c you're not going to do anything to remedy the situation. Then I think, but I love you and I know how it feels to need to vent to someone.

JD and I have discussed this and we feel the abusive half is not welcome in our house anymore. Kids pick up on things that adults don't even know they've heard/understood/comprehended. It feels as if we are enabling, all the ignoring and playing nicey nice. I don't want my kids to be around that. And I don't want to send the message that it's ok-b/c we both strongly feel that is the message that is being sent, that it is accepted. The thought of London growing up and thinking it's ok makes me sick--I dealt w/it myself many years ago before JD, so I don't know if I'm getting over cautious b/c of that or not. I don't want Trapper thinking it's ok either. You don't treat people that way, period.

So. Is this us being shitty? We both know that we run the risk of not seeing the "good" family member if they're going to stick together. But the last phone call, JD was repeating things to me while they were talking, and I had to get up and walk away. I went into London's room, lay down on her bed and cried. JD has tried to talk about the things he's seen as far as domestics, and the fact that it has escalated, the higher possibilities of what could happen...but there are no listening ears.

 

[momhappy]

Aw, packrat, I'm sorry you're dealing with this
We have a similar situation with a family member - I won't go into detail here. As our children have gotten older, they have started to figure it out and we finally had to have a conversation with the spouse about how if they were going to spend time in our home, they would need to control the issue. It was hurtful for everyone involved, but it had to be done. As painful as it may be, you need to make decisions that are best for you and your family. I wish you the best with your situation.

 

[sonnyjane]

Tough situation to be sure. When it comes to crappy relationships, unfortunately many times the only thing you can do is remove yourself from the situation. I've had many a girlfriend cry to me about how awful her relationship was, I'd give a pep talk having me think they felt the courage to leave, then they'd be right back crying again. I had to remove myself from their lives and have lost several friendships. I just can't witness people do that. It was causing me too much distress.

The only exception is if you think there is physical abuse. I did tell one of my friends that I would report her boyfriend if she told me about another incident. She stopped talking to me. Eventually her father reported the guy. If you think she's in danger, report it, but it's tricky because then the guy might lash out at her more. Perhaps discuss with her that you feel obligated to report him if she continues the relationship and you know physical abuse is present. Maybe she wants someone to take that on. Maybe she doesn't and will end your relationship. You won't know until you talk about it.

Obviously offer a safe place for her to escape, but if she's choosing to live in that relationship because she doesn't want a "failed marriage", there's not much you can do AT THIS STAGE. She would need to be ready to leave for herself, or she'll get sucked right back in again.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Packie, I think you are being very wise with your family. You are choosing what it best for them and how much, and what kind of behavior you want them to pick up on. You have a right to say what is ok for them. The family members probably won't like it much, and may even say rude things to you, or call you names. I would encourage you to stick with your gut. It feels wrong to you and that is enough.

The lady family member has the right to chose what is right for her. I wouldn't judge her for it, and I would make that clear to her. That doesn't make it ok for you, but it's her decision.

There is also a chance, that by you taking this stand, that others may start seeing what is going on, or that they may get some help. But even if they don't you have done what you feel is right for your family.

 

[azstonie]

Hey Packrat:

Kudos to you for laying down a boundary for YOUR household: Abusive bullies not welcome. Not welcome around your sweet kids, not welcome around you and JD (isn't JD a police officer? How can *he* tolerate that kind of thing, we used to always hear on the news that these domestic violence calls were the most dangerous calls police get sent out on).

Personality disordered people (narcissists, borderlines, etc) don't like consequences and they NEVER like boundaries. So you will have a boundary push should you tell the offending party of the boundary. It mostly advised to just enact the boundary and let them eventually figure it out (if indeed they ever do: "Gee, when WAS the last time we were at Packie's place?").

Regarding the complaining to you and JD about this, I'm of two minds. At this time, she chooses to allow the behavior so there is nothing for you to 'do' here and if there is nothing to do, she's dumping dark stuff all over your mind. When you have to go lay down in another room and you cry, you aren't available to your own family.

OTH, I hate that this abusive beater is pushing away her friends and possible support system.

 

[packrat]

Thanks guys! Yep, JD is an officer. He's had some hellacious domestics, and some of them start of "small/minor" and down the road they explode...part of what he was trying to get across during this last venting session about a month ago and its "yeah, I know" reply.

I think I was second guessing our decision and needed to hear otherwise.

Now...does it change anyone's opinions to know that the stereotypical roles are in fact reversed and the female is the abuser?

 

[amc80]

Their lives, their business. But that doesn't mean you have to accept it or allow it in your house.

My DH is a deputy. He says it is about 50-50 whether the man or woman is the abuser. Shouldn't make a difference.

 

[sonnyjane]

Thanks guys! Yep, JD is an officer. He's had some hellacious domestics, and some of them start of "small/minor" and down the road they explode...part of what he was trying to get across during this last venting session about a month ago and its "yeah, I know" reply.

I think I was second guessing our decision and needed to hear otherwise.

Now...does it change anyone's opinions to know that the stereotypical roles are in fact reversed and the female is the abuser?

It does affect my opinion actually! Normally I'd say stay out of it, but was urging you to possibly get involved if there was a possibility that he was hitting her. If she is abusing him, while not good either, statistically women kill their husbands in domestic disputes less often than husbands kill their wives. The safety was my primarily concern.

 

[Calliecake]

I'm sorry Packrat that you are having to deal with this situation. I can certainly understand that your number one priority is your children. I also wouldn't want to bring children around this person. On the other hand I also have the exact feeling AZstonie said in her last sentence. She will need support to leave this person. If she doesn't have that she will feel isolated and probably hang on tighter to him. I have always believed that women stay in these situations because they have low self esteem. The fact that she stays with this man tells me she is in a dark place.

Packie you and I have been through our share of bad things. Reading your post I'm reminded of how alone and bad about myself I felt years ago and I had so many people loving and supporting me at that painful time. I just feel bad that she is hurting. I also feel bad because I'm sure this brings up painful memories for you. God I am no help to you at all right now!

Is there a way you can still see her without your children around? Maybe meet her for a cup of coffee? I would explain to her how you feel and probably just tell her that you want to be there for her but she really needs to speaking with a professional.

 

[distracts]

Oh gosh - this is tough. So sorry you're having to deal with this. I think not allowing the abusive party to spend time with your kids/come to your house is perfectly rational. Will it upset your other family member? Sure it will. But ultimately I think you'll be much happier cutting out toxic influences, even at the risk of this family member, than you will if your children are exposed to this. I know it sucks but I think you're doing the right thing.

Doesn't matter whether it's a man or a woman. I've seen some truly crazy abuse coming from women as well as from men, and it's just as harmful no matter the sex of the perpetrator.

 

[Stone Hunter]

I am so pleased to read that you are putting your kids first. Before being nice. Before family obligations. It doesn't matter to me that the abuser is a woman. It's the acceptance of that that you/we don't want our kids to see.

Best wishes dealing with this as things escalate.

 

[Calliecake]

Makes no difference that the abuser is a woman. I hope he finds the strength to leave her.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Nope doesn't make a single bit of difference.

 

[momhappy]

Thanks guys! Yep, JD is an officer. He's had some hellacious domestics, and some of them start of "small/minor" and down the road they explode...part of what he was trying to get across during this last venting session about a month ago and its "yeah, I know" reply.

I think I was second guessing our decision and needed to hear otherwise.

Now...does it change anyone's opinions to know that the stereotypical roles are in fact reversed and the female is the abuser?

It doesn't make a difference in terms of your course of action - I still think that you need to do what's best for you and your family and no matter who the abuser/abused is, it's not appropriate around your children. Period.

 

[aviastar]

I'd give a call to NAMI- they have people you can talk to about how best to support an abused party without putting yourself and family in a bad spot. You don't have to be abused or reporting an abuser to call them, they are there to support everyone involved.

Personally, what I have heard advised to is definitely set the boundaries you need to for your home and family. It'll be ugly, but it's got to be done. Then don't stop calling your family member! He may stop responding, he may never answer or call you back, but keep making the effort to contact him. He will need support and help to leave, and when he is ready to make that move your name and number will be right there, along with the knowledge that you love him and never gave up on him. That's so important.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this- it's just a rotten place to be, but you are kind, compassionate, and strong willed. That makes you the very best person for this family member to have in his corner!

 

[House Cat]

You definitely made the right choice for your family. I believe that children change the ballgame when it comes to what we will tolerate in our homes. It is really strange because we really shouldn't tolerate strong levels of toxicity for ourselves either, but when it comes to our children, we know that we are forming their future relationships though exposure to others. Regularly exposing them to a contemptuous or abusive individual will cause damage. Did you notice the kids acting out any of the negative energy after the toxic person left? What I mean by that is, were they more sensitive or angry or clingy? Anything out of the norm? If so, this is more validation that you are doing the right thing by keeping this person away.

I had to cut of my mother because of this. She was extremely toxic. The abusive behavior extended onto everyone, but especially me. My youngest son would absorb it and then get very emotional after she left.

You asked if the roles being reversed would change my point of view. Yes. What I am going to say is pretty unfounded, more a feeling I have, but here goes. It is my feeling/opinion that men tend to stuff their feelings or shoulder burdens and they do not share their problems as freely as women. For this reason, I get very worried about men who are on the receiving end of an abusive relationship. I fear you are only getting the tiniest tip of the iceberg of his story. If this is true, I like the advice that you attempt to stay in his life. He will need you eventually.

It is strange that he is trying to stay when there aren't any children. That is a whole lot of determination!

 

[azstonie]

My god-brother lived for a short time with a woman who hit him and was verbally abusive. We only found out about it after he got a black eye and we put 2+2 together. He had told no one and it made him depressed and isolated. We urged him to move out and he finally did.

Fists are fists and mind f*cks are mind f*cks no matter what the genders are, but I think is has an extra touchy aspect because if a guy even so much as pushes back, here it comes, whereas if a woman pushes or hits back she's defending herself.

Jeesh. I hope this garbage is over soon for you.

My godmother, she is a verbally abusive and controlling monster. I always thought he was primed for an abusive relationship because of the ongoing on he had with his mother...Its all he knows when it comes to how families operate and how people relate and interact with each other. My mom is the same---it took decades for me to fully realize the extent of what being raised by such a person did to me.

 

[packrat]

Things he says and does, are the things that a battered woman says and does. Things JD sees happen in domestics. It's like a Dear Abby column on signs you're being abused and signs you're living w/an abuser. He has had divorce papers drawn up for a few months but done nothing w/them, and now she has a family situation on her side and he feels it would be "mean" to do anything.

The kids don't notice anything. She is nice to them, she is nice to us. I've caught a few looks shot his way, but they're looks that if you didn't know the whole story you'd think nothing of.

He sees it as a failure if he divorces. And he feels that at some point he will figure out how to make her happy-when she has point blank told him to his face she hates him and he is an awful human being and the worst excuse for a husband to ever walk the face of the earth. She's called him names that you do not *ever* call your spouse, so mad spit was flying out of her mouth. He has told her if she's so miserable she should just leave-but she won't. She gets her bills paid for and he takes her on trips and bends over backwards to do everything for her. Girls' not dumb, she knows what side her bread is buttered on.

he told me once if he just ignores it, just shrugs it off like "eh that's just how she is" then it's not so bad. I've offered for all of us to sit down and try to talk, and his answer is "hell no-you'd kill her". Well? That should tell you something then. She has refused counseling, she is not the one w/the problem, HE is the one w/the problem so HE should have counseling to understand that their marriage is HER way only.

JD's talked to him about protection orders and what the mindset of people is in these situations. "I know, I know". The stuff escalates and when it does, it can happen fast.

Aviastar, what does NAMI stand for? I've not heard of it but will look it up.

I watch a lot of Snapped, Deadly Women, Women Behind Bars, Women Who Kill, *ALL* the ID shows and Reelz and TLC and wherever else I can find the crime shows. The dvr is full of them and JD's always giving me the side eye and asking what I have planned. (go get me a cappuccino moolatte from DQ and then you never have to find out..today anyway... ) We've watched a couple shows and both turned to each other w/eyes the size of dinner plates and talked about how similar things are-and how scary that is.

 

[partgypsy]

I really don't know what you can do, other than be supportive to this person, offer them a place to stay if need be, and give them objective feedback. also get them involved in healthy activities away from that person, to show them what "normal" is.
My brother was involved in someone who was emotionally, psychologically, and physically abusive. Not married but have 2 kids together. After awhile, the person in that situation is a) thinks all that behavior is normal or even a sign of loving b) has such low self esteem and identity, it has been successively broken down, that they do see themselves as valueless, and only that other person opinions are real, etc.

If he does decide to move out, have him get a police escort in advance to be there when he moves out, for both safety and a witness.

Oh, and stop all that watching all those tv shows! Not helpful, just rubbernecking.

 

[tyty333]

He already has a failed marriage. She is the one that needs to make changes and unless she wants to, then it's not going to get better.
He'll just get tired of putting up with it eventually and he'll do something. It's a shame people have to be pushed really far. It's a
process that people have to go through and it takes some longer than others (the death/failure of a marriage).

I applaud you for keeping it out of your house. Maybe you can tell him that he is welcome to come over anytime if he needs to talk.
Just don't expect him to take your advice until it (the process for him) has run it's course. I wish you, JD, and him luck. No one should
have to put up with physical or emotional abuse.

 

[junebug17]

^Tyty just wrote exactly what I was thinking…eventually he's going to get tired of living like this and will do something about it. I think the process just has to play out. I really can't see him living the rest of his life like this. Eventually the thin wall of denial he's built around himself will fall down. In the meantime, I think you're making the right choice by cutting ties with her. You should not feel obligated to have anyone in your home who makes you feel uncomfortable and upset. In the meantime, I guess all you can do is be supportive. But even this gets tricky, because after a while everyone is just going around in circles, having the same conversations over and over. But maybe that's part of the process he has to go through, I don't know. I do think you should make an effort to detach a bit emotionally from it all, if you can. I know he's a good friend and you care about him, but It sounds like it's really starting to affect you. I apologize if this has been mentioned, but has he considered counseling for himself? Sometimes getting input from an objective person can be a wake-up call for someone.

 

[aviastar]

Sorry, Packrat, I meant to spell out the acronym and forgot!

National Alliance for Mental Illness
Www.nami.org


And also the National Domestic Violence Hotline
Www.thehotline.org

 

[azstonie]

http://www.outofthefog.net/index.html

It wouldn't hurt for you and/or JD to prowl through the tool box and some of the forums. Your relative would read in the "Chosen" forum postings because "Unchosen" is for the children of these abusive disordered people.

My first husband, he was verbally and emotionally abusive the day after I said "I do." At first, I could not believe it. Then, I believed it but wasn't sure if he could change. While I was in this stage, I took him to a Thanksgiving dinner at the home of friends and coworkers. He sat down at THEIR dinner table and proceeded to dominate the conversation and act like a total ass. I tried to divert the conversation to some of the other interesting and lovely people around the table and he ripped me a new one in front of my supervisor, my friends and my coworkers. I managed to hold off the tears and eventually we made our goodbyes and went home.

The next day at work a lovely man who was at the dinner party took me for coffee on our break and he very gently told me what was what in terms of my husband. He had an additionally interesting perspective on my ex because they went to the same AA meetings.

The two events, the dinner party and then being talked to in a caring way by my coworker, it gave me the strength to get out. I saw a divorce attorney the next day and moved out the next.

I will never forget that sweet guy who told me never to allow anyone to speak to me that way (Don!) and it turned my life around.

 

[telephone89]

I would probably lay down the rules that I wouldn't allow her into the home. I would support him, and give him a safe place should he need it. But I would not deal with having her or both of them around the kids. I think you are doing the right thing.

I might also ask him what he would say to a son/daughter if he had one. Would he urge the child to stay in an abusive relationship so they wouldn't have a failed marriage? That is absurd to me. If people like Kim kardashian can get a divorce (or two) for mind-numbing reasons, then regular folk can get a divorce for real issues. This is a real issue.

 

[LLJsmom]

Packie, I think you are being very wise with your family. You are choosing what it best for them and how much, and what kind of behavior you want them to pick up on. You have a right to say what is ok for them. The family members probably won't like it much, and may even say rude things to you, or call you names. I would encourage you to stick with your gut. It feels wrong to you and that is enough.

The lady family member has the right to chose what is right for her. I wouldn't judge her for it, and I would make that clear to her. That doesn't make it ok for you, but it's her decision.

There is also a chance, that by you taking this stand, that others may start seeing what is going on, or that they may get some help. But even if they don't you have done what you feel is right for your family.

+1

 

[LLJsmom]

Hey Packrat:

Kudos to you for laying down a boundary for YOUR household: Abusive bullies not welcome. Not welcome around your sweet kids, not welcome around you and JD (isn't JD a police officer? How can *he* tolerate that kind of thing, we used to always hear on the news that these domestic violence calls were the most dangerous calls police get sent out on).

Personality disordered people (narcissists, borderlines, etc) don't like consequences and they NEVER like boundaries. So you will have a boundary push should you tell the offending party of the boundary. It mostly advised to just enact the boundary and let them eventually figure it out (if indeed they ever do: "Gee, when WAS the last time we were at Packie's place?").

Regarding the complaining to you and JD about this, I'm of two minds. At this time, she chooses to allow the behavior so there is nothing for you to 'do' here and if there is nothing to do, she's dumping dark stuff all over your mind. When you have to go lay down in another room and you cry, you aren't available to your own family.

OTH, I hate that this abusive beater is pushing away her friends and possible support system.

+1

And my opinion is the same with it being a woman. I'm sorry packrat. It's hard for everyone. In the end, only he can get himself out of it. I have a male friend who is in a relationship with an abusive alcoholic woman. He is the one who needs to realize that he deserves better. It's a matter of how much he values himself, and in your case, himself and his children.

 

[packrat]

Thanks guys. I needed to hear that we were making the right decisions. We've already got family members not seeing eye to eye w/us on it. I guess it is what it is. His parents have also talked to him, and the other family members that know at least part of what is going on, I'm not sure why they seem to accept it. They mentioned just yesterday about a big family vacation and I said absolutely not- if she is going, we won't be-and there was a lot of eye rolling and "Oh jeez" in response.

I said the other day that what I'd like to do is tell him if he *really* feels it's ok, to sit down w/my kids and look them in the eye and say "London, when you get married, it's ok for your husband to hit you or call you names and it's ok for you to hit him" "Trapper, when you get married, it's ok for you to hit your wife and call her names, and it's ok if she hits you" "It's ok for your daddy to hit your mom and call her names" And tell them it's ok to hit their kids and call them names-cuz if you're gonna do it to your spouse, why not your kids? That's a mean and horrible thing to do, but then again, I'm a bitch.

Ugh, I can't quit watching those shows-they've been my favorites for years. And sometimes they get me stuff...I'd been trying to get JD to give me a foot rub and he was being obstinate...he asked after a commercial for a Snapped episode what would make a wife stab her husband 142 times-I nonchalantly said "I dunno..maybe he wouldn't rub her feet".

They've moved away now, so we rarely see them anymore. I miss him. We don't talk as much. When I ask how things are going he says "Oh, fine. It's the same, but what'd'ya do yanno?" or he'll talk about work instead. When they still lived here, he used our house as his safe haven when he didn't want to go home. At first he was all chipper "Hey, just wanted to stop by and see what you're up to!" and then once he started telling us what was going on, I'd raise an eyebrow when he'd walk in and he'd put his head down and say "Yeah...I don't want to go home right now, can I hang out w/you?"

I will check those links out, thanks for them!

 

[distracts]

Thanks guys. I needed to hear that we were making the right decisions. We've already got family members not seeing eye to eye w/us on it. I guess it is what it is. His parents have also talked to him, and the other family members that know at least part of what is going on, I'm not sure why they seem to accept it. They mentioned just yesterday about a big family vacation and I said absolutely not- if she is going, we won't be-and there was a lot of eye rolling and "Oh jeez" in response.

I never understand why people respond this way. Just because THEY want to put up with this nonsense does not mean YOU are obligated to.

 

[iLander]

Packrat, I'm not sure I could hold my tongue with this b!tch. How are you managing that? Not being critical, but is there a good reason not to pull her hair out?

ETA: Just tell me where she lives, I'll go give her a piece of my mind. I tend to just get mad and vengeful when I hear about this stuff . . . it's a weakness I have.

 

[packrat]

hahahaha ohh ilander, this guy hasn't had very good luck w/women, tho there was one that I *loved*...I've had a lot of practice playing nice when inside I'm daydreaming about freaking out and killing someone. And I hate to do it. Hate it. It feels so false and so..two faced? I want to just ask, What gives you the right to be such a ****ing *bitch*? Like a movie in my head..we're all sitting around having a nice family dinner...and whilst taking a bite of mashed potatoes, Missi opens her big fat trap w/her eyes all wide and innocent and a smile on her face.

And it makes me mad b/c I liked her. We didn't instantly bond like one in the past, but dangit, we got along anyway. I don't like it when people fool me about being nice. You guys know that's my thing-be NICE. Gets me in trouble on here just as much as IRL I guess.

Distracts-me too! I just don't get it! If you wouldn't tolerate your spouse treating you like that, and you certainly wouldn't stand for your kids to be treated that way, why in the world is it ok for someone else?