Psycho in the Family

[telephone89]

I'd probably tell her and make sure she knows how much she is hurting her children by staying. Even if SHE isnt worried, I bet they still are. I don't know if I'm a terrible person, but I'd rather lay on the guilt of that, and have her hate me then potentially end up really hurt, her kids hurt or worse. Jambalaya you're such a good cousin, I hope mine would be as kind and thoughtful if I were ever in such a situation <3

 

[Jambalaya]

Don't blow things up before you have a plan. That would be harmful.

Now is actually the best time because the kids aren't in school and he won't know where to go and get them.

She needs to understand that no matter how many eggshells she walks on, he won't get better. He's mentally ill and he is decompensating. He will only get worse. She is on the road to hell.

She needs to realize the kids know and see all this. They think it's okay and right because that is what he is teaching them. In this scenario, she's raising/creating 2 victims, or 2 more abusers. Kids live what they learn.

But if she doesn't want to leave, you won't get her out. Try figuring out why she has such low self esteem (probably because of him), and bring her back to the place she was before he met her, the mental place where she had some self esteem. Make her realize that if not for her, then do it for her children.

But if she does want to leave, she needs to make a plan. Pick a place to go, find a female divorce lawyer that will freeze the assets when she walks out, pack up and leave when he's gone. Go as far away as possible. Tell the police, call a women's shelter, get as many records out there as possible. And tell her he will contact her and either sweet talk her or threaten her or both. She needs counseling at the women's shelter. Remind her of the OJ Simpson case which was an abusive ex-husband killing the wife and boyfriend. Ask her if she wants to be there one day.

Ilander, yeah I know. As angry as I was yesterday at him, she now wants to try again with him, so I'm not going to blow things up. Agree there needs to be a plan in place, and I'm far away - I can't make the plan for her. She herself needs to craft her exit. I see that now, but I was just so frustrated yesterday about these crimes happening under my nose and not doing anything, as if we were appeasing this criminal and tippytoeing around him instead of just sending the police in and taking him down.

But that's a pipe dream, it turns out. None of the services will help unless she makes a complaint. I understand about her needing to realize the things you mentioned, but she doesn't. She's not perceptive in that way, has no idea of the danger she's in, and no realization of what witnessing abuse is doing to the kids. She just doesn't see it, and I can't make her. I emailed her a ton of sensible advice, about getting out while her mom is still alive to help, and while my cousin is still young and strong, before the problems of middle and old age beset her, and it was not appreciated at all.

I totally agree about the children and what this home is creating in them. I think much of the damage has already occurred. The oldest child, a boy, is 8, and the girl, 4, was yelling at daddy to leave mommy alone a year ago, when she was 3! The boy is very, very quiet and somewhat behind developmentally, and that is not a family trait, so I think it's down to his environment. God knows what is fulminating inside his mind.

And my cousin won't leave the house. She says why should she leave.

So basically she's going to stay, and I am not going to be this invested in helping her again, since she's staying. At the next SOS I'll just alert her brother and then make a few sympathetic noises. I have no confidence or expectation whatsoever that she will effect change. The crux of the matter is that she LOVES him despite the abuse and wants to stay, because he always dangles the carrot of a better future. Yup, I know. Classic abuser behavior.

By the way, I do believe she has low self-esteem to marry and reproduce with a man like this. He was never, ever nice to her, well before there was marriage and kids, and she's always stuck with him. The first time I ever met him, I detested him because I could see what he was like. He never really hid his nastiness. And I know where her lack of self-esteem comes from: Her treatment by her father. He married into the family and was verbally abusive, having come from an abusive family himself. So in her family line, her children are actually the third generation to experience abuse. And so it goes on.

 

[Jambalaya]

Based on your cousin and her brother, both taking a passive role in this, I'm wondering if your aunt or uncle abused them as children? Their reaction is not quite normal . . .

Ilander, posting at the same time! Yes, her father was abusive.

 

[Jambalaya]

I'd probably tell her and make sure she knows how much she is hurting her children by staying. Even if SHE isnt worried, I bet they still are. I don't know if I'm a terrible person, but I'd rather lay on the guilt of that, and have her hate me then potentially end up really hurt, her kids hurt or worse. Jambalaya you're such a good cousin, I hope mine would be as kind and thoughtful if I were ever in such a situation <3

Well, I'm quite worried about her mental state right now. I don't want to push her into a breakdown, which wouldn't help the children either. I can tell by her emails that she's very stressed, so I think it's better to lay off for now. I have told her everything I think straight up and notified her family of all the abuse details. Thanks for saying I'm a good cousin. I'm realizing I have a history of helping people a lot who wouldn't dream of doing the same for me in such depth, but it's hard to stand by and watch someone flounder and just to not do much in the name of self-protection. But next SOS, like I've said, I'm not going to be so invested.

 

[telephone89]

Well, I'm quite worried about her mental state right now. I don't want to push her into a breakdown, which wouldn't help the children either. I can tell by her emails that she's very stressed, so I think it's better to lay off for now. I have told her everything I think straight up and notified her family of all the abuse details. Thanks for saying I'm a good cousin. I'm realizing I have a history of helping people a lot who wouldn't dream of doing the same for me in such depth, but it's hard to stand by and watch someone flounder and just to not do much in the name of self-protection. But next SOS, like I've said, I'm not going to be so invested.

I think thats important for your own state of mind, otherwise this will drive you crazy.

 

[Jambalaya]

The only victims in this home are the children. The adults are active participants. Difficult enough to accept, their mother has choices and she is choosing to keep her children in this abusive environment. She is considered the "enabler."

Once again, she is enabling the abuse being perpetrated in the home. Therefore, she is actively participating in damaging the psyches of these children.

Outofthefog.net has a lot of advice for people dealing with abusers. Look at support forums.

In my state, if the abused party chooses to keep the children in this type of environment, the children will be removed from the custody of BOTH parents...rightfully so.


I am being a hard-a$$ right now because I really want you to see what is happening. I am hoping you can draw a line with your loved one too. She is in a fog of abuse and she needs to see that her children are being permanently damaged right now. Their brains are being permanently damaged right now. Research shows that children who are exposed to this kind of chronic trauma affects a person's health throughout their lives. They have more medical conditions, addiction, mental illness, horrible relationships, reduced brain size. The list goes on and on and on.

This isn't a matter of the children being "scared." This is a matter of the children being permanently scarred. It is my personal experience that once these wounds are created, you can't get rid of them, you can only work with them, but they are a part of you forever. I know you will do what you can to get her to protect her kids, but if you can't...please call child protective services and get those kids out of the home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ovIJ3dsNk Ted talk about childhood trauma and its affect across life. Please watch.

On a side note: Everything has really escalated with this man. Does he have some kind of diagnosed mental illness?

HouseCat, yup, yup, and yup. I couldn't agree more about the effect on children, the plasticity of their brains, etc etc. Everything you said. However, he is not abusing the children themselves so I don't think the services would take them, and if I made a complaint my cousin would just shut it down since there's no proof, then the kids would remain in the home, and she and her family would never talk to me again. After all, there's no proof, it's their word against mine, and obviously she'd fight to the death not to have her kids taken away from her. I probably wouldn't succeed and the only outcome is that I would lose four of my closest family members (her, her two brothers and my aunt.) But I agree that she is a terrible, terrible, terrible mother and I'm fast losing respect for her in this regard. I do understand how difficult it is for an abused woman herself to leave, for a number of complex reasons, but you'd think the children witnessing all this would provide some impetus. But nope.

 

[Jambalaya]

Well, I'm quite worried about her mental state right now. I don't want to push her into a breakdown, which wouldn't help the children either. I can tell by her emails that she's very stressed, so I think it's better to lay off for now. I have told her everything I think straight up and notified her family of all the abuse details. Thanks for saying I'm a good cousin. I'm realizing I have a history of helping people a lot who wouldn't dream of doing the same for me in such depth, but it's hard to stand by and watch someone flounder and just to not do much in the name of self-protection. But next SOS, like I've said, I'm not going to be so invested.

I think thats important for your own state of mind, otherwise this will drive you crazy.

Yup, totally.

I thank everyone here for their kind advice. A pity it's all to no good, since she is staying. I'm going to get outside and enjoy the sun, and try to stop thinking about her unsolvable problems.

 

[Jambalaya]

OK, I've put a vacation response on my email that I'm away for the Fourth of July and will respond on Tuesday 7th. Not true, but I want a break from my cousin's family.

 

[AGBF]

In my limited personal experience (as opposed to my vast professional experience), abuse only stops when when you call the police and the abuser knows that you will always call the police if he lays a hand on you-or even a finger. He has to know that no inappropropriate behavior at all will be toerated and that you do not mind taking the consequences, even if it means landing in the street without an income.

I may be the only person in America not to follow th OJ Simpson trial. I know that the most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves her abuser. But Nicole Simpson appears to have done some of her leaving sub rosa. Am I wrong? I know she documented the abuse and it was in safety deposit boxes. But did she ever call 911 from a phone far enough away from OJ to be safe from him, yet to report the abuse while it was going on so that he could be arrested for it while in the act? The way Rihanna had Chris Brown arrested? (As I said, I may be the only person in America NOT to know!)

My own experience has been that having the abuser arrested in the act is a deterrent. But believe me, I know of many men who walk through restraining orders and kill their girlfriends and wives!

The Dixie Chicks song, "Goodbye, Earl" comes to mind! "Goodbye Earl"...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw7gNf_9njs

Deb/AGBF

 

[packrat]

Ohhh how badly I want to jump up and down and scream. It's like when people are *in* the relationship they just can NOT see.

I wish JD were here-I'd see if he had any advice. I know that he deals w/it ALL the time. ALL the time. And usually when they go to a domestic, there's a change of heart. The guy goes to jail anyway, (and all too often the woman takes it out on the cops b/c they're so mean to *him* and he didn't really mean it) but pretty much nothing will happen unless she takes it further. I think if there are kids in the house they will have to be taken to a foster but I can't swear to it. It happens so often and each time is a little different so it's hard for me to separate out the details. I know JD doesn't have a lot of faith in DHS/CPS. And a lot of the frustration comes I think from the laws themselves. The abuser a lot of times really does have to hurt her or the kids.

My aunt was in an abusive relationship when I was younger, and used to go to my mom and her brother for help, mainly just to vent, she didn't want them to do anything and she didn't want to leave. She too had kids. Finally my Uncle just kept asking questions "so..what is it that you love about him? Do you love it when he slaps you and beats the shit out of you? Or how about when he calls you names and says he hates you? Would you like it if he started doing that to your kids? Does that mean anyone has free reign to beat on you and your kids?" And it pretty much came down to, if you're going to allow the behavior, what do you want me to do?

I met a woman at a job I had many years ago and we hit it off immediately and became super close friends. She had three kids and a boyfriend she lived w/who was abusive. He was always nice as pie to me, really charming. (of course) She had even helped me get out of a shitty but non abusive relationship by helping me to see *my* worth as a person. I was in my early 20's, loudmouthed and dumb, she was in her 30's and been w/this guy for a long time, so what did I know? Until the time she called me in hysterics and he had a gun and was in the background yelling and carrying on. I tried talking to him and ended up in tears b/c it had escalated so much and he just kept telling me "Missi I love her I love her you don't understand I love her she can't leave me I need her I love her" so all three of us were sobbing and I was begging him to let me at least come get the kids. It was *horrible*. She ended up marrying him, and it didn't change. I had to back away, and I hated to do it ohhhh how I hated to do it, waiting to find out he'd killed her or the kids. They moved back to their home state and we lost touch until I stumbled across her on FB. She had divorced him and married a wonderful man and was very happy. So that was a happy ending..but to *get* there, was hard.

I would have to back away, for my own sanity. Let her know if she were to leave you would do what you could for her and the kids. See what you can find out as far as laws/police etc that might help her, maybe might give her a push. But know that until she is really ready, even if she leaves, it might not be for good, sadly.

 

[House Cat]

Domestic violence is child abuse.

The children are living with a monster. Telling your children that their mommy is a bitch is child abuse. Withholding food from mommy and making them live with that kind of terror is child abuse.


You are lying to yourself if you think any different.

 

[AGBF]

Withholding food from mommy and making them live with that kind of terror is child abuse.

The children have to be scared out of their wits. If their father can do that to their mother, whom they view as all powerful, what could he do to them!!!? Does anyone really think that the children do not think about what he might do to them? That they do not have fears that lurk and come out as nightmares...whether or not they talk about them? This mother is very much to blame for not saving her children.

Deb/AGBF

 

[House Cat]

Withholding food from mommy and making them live with that kind of terror is child abuse.

The children have to be scared out of their wits. If their father can do that to their mother, whom they view as all powerful, what could he do to them!!!? Does anyone really think that the children do not think about what he might do to them? That they do not have fears that lurk and come out as nightmares...whether or not they talk about them? This mother is very much to blame for not saving her children.

Deb/AGBF

Exactly.

Calling mommy a bitch is a double abandonment. The children can't trust dad because he is the monster calling mommy names, but they can't trust mom because she is a bitch!

The children are abandoned in a domestic violence situation. Abandonment is abuse.

Research it.

 

[TooPatient]

Thanks Jambalaya.

It is hard. But it is a lot easier to write it out in hopes of helping (even if it is only information that may be used in 5 or 10 or 20 years) than to stand by and not say anything.

FWIW, I am also watching a loved one in an abusive relationship. Thankfully (in some messed up way), it is "only" verbal and mental. Unfortunately, his son is really suffering. It is so hard sitting by knowing what I know. Having lived as a child through that. Watching her stay and go through the torment is miserable.

All you can do is stay detached enough to keep your sanity but close enough to let her see a way out when she is ready. Look at my last post for what YOU can do. Even if she won't document, you can do some and some is better than none.

Sending you big hugs as you go through this. It is NOT an easy situation from any place. The only person who has any choice in this is her. You and her kids are just stuck waiting.

 

[Jambalaya]

House Cat, I know that witnessing abuse is abuse where kids are concerned. I do. I agree with everything you say. But I said that in the eyes of the law, a child witnessing bad words between her parents is not on the same level as if the child were being directly abused physically or sexually. I could call child services and they would interview the parents, who would reassure them all was well, it would be put down to a domestic, and since the mother has made no complaint against her husband, and has never called the police, there is no proof whatsoever.

And even if I could have the children removed for hearing bad things, where would they go? To a home or to foster care, where the chances of direct physical and sexual abuse rise significantly? I agree with everything said here about how bad it already is for her kids, but legally there is not a lot to be done if the mother does not make a legal complaint against her husband and the children are not experiencing direct abuse, which is what matters in the eyes of the law. All that would happen is a kerfuffle at the house, the kids would remain, and I would lose a massive chunk of my family because they'd never speak to me again for trying to get the kids taken away. SHE needs to act.

 

[packrat]

JD will attest that in order for the kids to be removed, they have to provide a LOT of evidence. "He calls me a bitch in front of my kids" isn't enough. JD's had to bring kids back to homes that he has felt sick to his stomach to do so-but it's the law.

DHS/CPS is so ungodly overworked and understaffed it's not even comprehensible. It's sad, but it's how things are. People are allowed to have kids that should not have kids.

 

[AGBF]

DHS/CPS is so ungodly overworked and understaffed it's not even comprehensible. It's sad, but it's how things are. People are allowed to have kids that should not have kids.

I do not even know what the current acronym stands for, but, unfortunately, I know the program well: child protective services. If you are a social worker and you enter the portals of that program, you will be tortured. Because you will be unable to help almost any child. You will be given the choice of placing each innocent child in a horrible situation or a worse one, with a villain or a monster. The laws and the system will conspire aganst the child and justice at every turn. If you are in a graduate school of social work, consider this your baptism by fire, but know that you will go home crying every night.

AGBF

 

[autumngems]

Please do all that you can to get her and children away from him. I lost my neice when her husband mudered her and someone else with the kids in the house.

 

[Jambalaya]

JD will attest that in order for the kids to be removed, they have to provide a LOT of evidence. "He calls me a bitch in front of my kids" isn't enough. JD's had to bring kids back to homes that he has felt sick to his stomach to do so-but it's the law.

DHS/CPS is so ungodly overworked and understaffed it's not even comprehensible. It's sad, but it's how things are. People are allowed to have kids that should not have kids.

Exactly. That's the problem. Thanks for the input, Packrat. JD's job sounds very difficult.

 

[Jambalaya]

DHS/CPS is so ungodly overworked and understaffed it's not even comprehensible. It's sad, but it's how things are. People are allowed to have kids that should not have kids.

I do not even know what the current acronym stands for, but, unfortunately, I know the program well: child protective services. If you are a social worker and you enter the portals of that program, you will be tortured. Because you will be unable to help almost any child. You will be given the choice of placing each innocent child in a horrible situation or a worse one, with a villain or a monster. The laws and the system will conspire aganst the child and justice at every turn. If you are in a graduate school of social work, consider this your baptism by fire, but know that you will go home crying every night.

AGBF

Christ. My niece is going into social work with stars in her eyes, and I never thought it was a great choice for her. You've confirmed my suspicions about the job.

 

[Jambalaya]

Please do all that you can to get her and children away from him. I lost my neice when her husband mudered her and someone else with the kids in the house.

Good God. That's terrible. Autumngems, I am so very sorry about your niece. I'm guessing there was a long history of abuse in the marriage?

It's not that I'm not frightened enough for my cousin - I am, and I certainly do not underestimate the danger. But I'm two thousand miles away and I have caring responsibilities here, and there is NO evidence or proof of a problem in that house - no trail of police calls to that address - and until she makes a complaint, I have found there is nothing I can do. I tried calling the domestic violence hotline in her state, the Samaritans, both useless, her local police station is always closed, her family aren't helping, she's not helping...If I called the police they'd go round, be assured by them that nothing was wrong (because she doesn't call me when the violence is happening, only a few days or weeks later), and then the police would leave, and imagine what he'd do to her then?

And you know what, we have FOUR enormous male cousins and brothers, and they are doing nothing! Her two brothers are six feet five, another mutual cousin is tattooed and ripped and kinda scary, and our other mutual cousin is a fireman! Why aren't they standing there like something out of Reservoir Dogs while she tells the monster to get out? It's all down to me!

I have expressed in the strongest terms to both her and her oldest brother that the husband is a classic abuser who will never, ever change and the she is in more danger than she realizes. I don't know how else to say it, or how to make any of them see.

 

[House Cat]

If they were only bad words, we would have nothing to discuss here. We are talking about a man who has made death threats. This same man withheld food, physical abuse.

It would be VERY naive to believe that this was an isolated incident.

It is always surprising and repulsive to me how quickly people will begin to minimize the story of abuse the moment I point out that the mother (with choices) is the enabler of the abuse and the children are the victims. Everyone is perfectly comfortable discussing the woman as the victim because they aren't really expected to DO anything. The moment you up the ante to the fact that it is actually the children being abused, everyone hmmms and haws and changes their tune because maybe something uncomfortable would be expected of them.

You agree these children are living in an abusive environment? Do something. Consult experts. Consult experts on how to communicate with her so that she sees what is going on. Don't talk to people on a diamond forum as your expert opinion. Children are being damaged.

I know CPS more than most. I have fought for my step son. I never cared how "bogged down" they were. I was showing him that he mattered to SOMEONE. It speaks volumes to a child to show them that there is someone in the world willing to fight for them! I had a social worker sit on my couch and tell me that if I could prove domestic violence in my step son's home, they would remove the children. He said they remove children from domestic violence situations because the incidence of death is just too high.

Kids need adults. If their parents are too fogged for whatever reason, then they need OTHER adults to help them. Things don't have to be hostile. But please, don't speculate your way out of helping them and don't allow the people here to do the same. You don't know what kind of help you can provide until you try.

Take care.

 

[Jambalaya]

Withholding food from mommy and making them live with that kind of terror is child abuse.

The children have to be scared out of their wits. If their father can do that to their mother, whom they view as all powerful, what could he do to them!!!? Does anyone really think that the children do not think about what he might do to them? That they do not have fears that lurk and come out as nightmares...whether or not they talk about them? This mother is very much to blame for not saving her children.

Deb/AGBF

I agree. I am trying not to blame her or to become too frustrated with her because she's in a living nightmare, but I am thinking that she is a terrible mother. However, I do not think she has the powers of perception or the ability to extrapolate the future from current events. And she's always been a bad picker.

 

[House Cat]

Please do all that you can to get her and children away from him. I lost my neice when her husband mudered her and someone else with the kids in the house.

Good God. That's terrible. Autumngems, I am so very sorry about your niece. I'm guessing there was a long history of abuse in the marriage?

It's not that I'm not frightened enough for my cousin - I am, and I certainly do not underestimate the danger. But I'm two thousand miles away and I have caring responsibilities here, and there is NO evidence or proof of a problem in that house - no trail of police calls to that address - and until she makes a complaint, I have found there is nothing I can do. I tried calling the domestic violence hotline in her state, the Samaritans, both useless, her local police station is always closed, her family aren't helping, she's not helping...If I called the police they'd go round, be assured by them that nothing was wrong (because she doesn't call me when the violence is happening, only a few days or weeks later), and then the police would leave, and imagine what he'd do to her then?

And you know what, we have FOUR enormous male cousins and brothers, and they are doing nothing! Her two brothers are six feet five, another mutual cousin is tattooed and ripped and kinda scary, and our other mutual cousin is a fireman! Why aren't they standing there like something out of Reservoir Dogs while she tells the monster to get out? It's all down to me!

I have expressed in the strongest terms to both her and her oldest brother that the husband is a classic abuser who will never, ever change and the she is in more danger than she realizes. I don't know how else to say it, or how to make any of them see.

You know what? It isn't down to you.

Call the cousins.


You do have a lot on your plate! It isn't all up to you!!

 

[Jambalaya]

If they were only bad words, we would have nothing to discuss here. We are talking about a man who has made death threats. This same man withheld food, physical abuse.

It would be VERY naive to believe that this was an isolated incident.

It is always surprising and repulsive to me how quickly people will begin to minimize the story of abuse the moment I point out that the mother (with choices) is the enabler of the abuse and the children are the victims. Everyone is perfectly comfortable discussing the woman as the victim because they aren't really expected to DO anything. The moment you up the ante to the fact that it is actually the children being abused, everyone hmmms and haws and changes their tune because maybe something uncomfortable would be expected of them.

You agree these children are living in an abusive environment? Do something. Consult experts. Consult experts on how to communicate with her so that she sees what is going on. Don't talk to people on a diamond forum as your expert opinion. Children are being damaged.

I know CPS more than most. I have fought for my step son. I never cared how "bogged down" they were. I was showing him that he mattered to SOMEONE. It speaks volumes to a child to show them that there is someone in the world willing to fight for them! I had a social worker sit on my couch and tell me that if I could prove domestic violence in my step son's home, they would remove the children. He said they remove children from domestic violence situations because the incidence of death is just too high.

Kids need adults. If their parents are too fogged for whatever reason, then they need OTHER adults to help them. Things don't have to be hostile. But please, don't speculate your way out of helping them and don't allow the people here to do the same. You don't know what kind of help you can provide until you try.

Take care.

My cousin is supposed to be seeing a solicitor which her brother is paying for so no excuse, so we'll see what comes out of that. What I'm getting right now is that her brother and her don't want me to interfere any more for the moment.

I agree that she is an enabler.

 

[Jambalaya]

Please do all that you can to get her and children away from him. I lost my neice when her husband mudered her and someone else with the kids in the house.

Good God. That's terrible. Autumngems, I am so very sorry about your niece. I'm guessing there was a long history of abuse in the marriage?

It's not that I'm not frightened enough for my cousin - I am, and I certainly do not underestimate the danger. But I'm two thousand miles away and I have caring responsibilities here, and there is NO evidence or proof of a problem in that house - no trail of police calls to that address - and until she makes a complaint, I have found there is nothing I can do. I tried calling the domestic violence hotline in her state, the Samaritans, both useless, her local police station is always closed, her family aren't helping, she's not helping...If I called the police they'd go round, be assured by them that nothing was wrong (because she doesn't call me when the violence is happening, only a few days or weeks later), and then the police would leave, and imagine what he'd do to her then?

And you know what, we have FOUR enormous male cousins and brothers, and they are doing nothing! Her two brothers are six feet five, another mutual cousin is tattooed and ripped and kinda scary, and our other mutual cousin is a fireman! Why aren't they standing there like something out of Reservoir Dogs while she tells the monster to get out? It's all down to me!

I have expressed in the strongest terms to both her and her oldest brother that the husband is a classic abuser who will never, ever change and the she is in more danger than she realizes. I don't know how else to say it, or how to make any of them see.

You know what? It isn't down to you.

Call the cousins.


You do have a lot on your plate! It isn't all up to you!!

I have called the cousins!

 

[Jambalaya]

In my limited personal experience (as opposed to my vast professional experience), abuse only stops when when you call the police and the abuser knows that you will always call the police if he lays a hand on you-or even a finger. He has to know that no inappropropriate behavior at all will be toerated and that you do not mind taking the consequences, even if it means landing in the street without an income.

I may be the only person in America not to follow th OJ Simpson trial. I know that the most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves her abuser. But Nicole Simpson appears to have done some of her leaving sub rosa. Am I wrong? I know she documented the abuse and it was in safety deposit boxes. But did she ever call 911 from a phone far enough away from OJ to be safe from him, yet to report the abuse while it was going on so that he could be arrested for it while in the act? The way Rihanna had Chris Brown arrested? (As I said, I may be the only person in America NOT to know!)

My own experience has been that having the abuser arrested in the act is a deterrent. But believe me, I know of many men who walk through restraining orders and kill their girlfriends and wives!

The Dixie Chicks song, "Goodbye, Earl" comes to mind! "Goodbye Earl"...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw7gNf_9njs

Deb/AGBF

That's the problem, Deb. She has always just taken the abuse, and he knows perfectly well that he can get away with it. Abusers pick their victims very wisely.

 

[Jambalaya]

Ohhh how badly I want to jump up and down and scream. It's like when people are *in* the relationship they just can NOT see.

I wish JD were here-I'd see if he had any advice. I know that he deals w/it ALL the time. ALL the time. And usually when they go to a domestic, there's a change of heart. The guy goes to jail anyway, (and all too often the woman takes it out on the cops b/c they're so mean to *him* and he didn't really mean it) but pretty much nothing will happen unless she takes it further. I think if there are kids in the house they will have to be taken to a foster but I can't swear to it. It happens so often and each time is a little different so it's hard for me to separate out the details. I know JD doesn't have a lot of faith in DHS/CPS. And a lot of the frustration comes I think from the laws themselves. The abuser a lot of times really does have to hurt her or the kids.

My aunt was in an abusive relationship when I was younger, and used to go to my mom and her brother for help, mainly just to vent, she didn't want them to do anything and she didn't want to leave. She too had kids. Finally my Uncle just kept asking questions "so..what is it that you love about him? Do you love it when he slaps you and beats the shit out of you? Or how about when he calls you names and says he hates you? Would you like it if he started doing that to your kids? Does that mean anyone has free reign to beat on you and your kids?" And it pretty much came down to, if you're going to allow the behavior, what do you want me to do?

I met a woman at a job I had many years ago and we hit it off immediately and became super close friends. She had three kids and a boyfriend she lived w/who was abusive. He was always nice as pie to me, really charming. (of course) She had even helped me get out of a shitty but non abusive relationship by helping me to see *my* worth as a person. I was in my early 20's, loudmouthed and dumb, she was in her 30's and been w/this guy for a long time, so what did I know? Until the time she called me in hysterics and he had a gun and was in the background yelling and carrying on. I tried talking to him and ended up in tears b/c it had escalated so much and he just kept telling me "Missi I love her I love her you don't understand I love her she can't leave me I need her I love her" so all three of us were sobbing and I was begging him to let me at least come get the kids. It was *horrible*. She ended up marrying him, and it didn't change. I had to back away, and I hated to do it ohhhh how I hated to do it, waiting to find out he'd killed her or the kids. They moved back to their home state and we lost touch until I stumbled across her on FB. She had divorced him and married a wonderful man and was very happy. So that was a happy ending..but to *get* there, was hard.

I would have to back away, for my own sanity. Let her know if she were to leave you would do what you could for her and the kids. See what you can find out as far as laws/police etc that might help her, maybe might give her a push. But know that until she is really ready, even if she leaves, it might not be for good, sadly.

Thanks for this, Packrat. I'm glad the story had a happy ending, but yes, who wants to go through all that to get there? Regarding help, I told her that I would testify against him in family court and that I'd be free for that anytime, I emailed her TooPatient's tip about the camera phone and said to black out the red recording light with a marker, I emailed her a link from a legal advice site that she needs both a restraining order and an occupation order to get him away from her and the house, and I wrote her a long email painting her a picture of her future if she stays and telling her that he shows every textbook sign of being a real abuser and that he will never change, and she is in danger. She told me not to bother her right now because she was organizing the school fair, and that they are going to counseling and need to communicate more. Her oldest brother does not want me to do anything in case the husband takes it out on her, and the brother thinks she is working toward getting out. We shall see.

 

[AGBF]

Jambalaya-

All of our ranting is not aimed at you. At least it shouldn't be. It is a generalized, "This is what should be done when a woman is being abused" rant by frustrated women! All of us want a piece of that abuser! I don't think we'd need the 6' 5" brother if we Pricescope women were there. In fact, it might be better if he stayed out of the way, lest he get hurt.

Deb

 

[House Cat]

Jambalaya-

All of our ranting is not aimed at you. At least it shouldn't be. It is a generalized, "This is what should be done when a woman is being abused" rant by frustrated women! All of us want a piece of that abuser! I don't think we'd need the 6' 5" brother if we Pricescope women were there. In fact, it might be better if he stayed out of the way, lest he get hurt.

Deb

Thank you Deb.

I love your ability to convey the perfect sentiment at the perfect moment!