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PS Lawyers, may I have a second of your time?

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Gypsy

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Hi all. i'm writing a novel and my character is a new lawyer (it's a bit autobiographical)... BUT I have some questions I was hoping you all would help me with and I am hoping you will let me use some of it in my book.

First, she is contemplating an job offer to switch from litigation (where she just started) to transactional work (kinda... it's not that easy, but that's the simplified version of it) and I've never done any transactional work... so. What are somethings a first year transactional associate would do? What types of things (if you do transactional work) do you like about it... and what do you hate. Especially if what you hate is in any way funny.

Second, what kinds of things do you wish someone had told you before you went to lawschool, or during lawschool that would have better prepared you for the realities of the job... the job market... or the culture?

THANK YOU ALL!
 

akw94

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Hmmm... a few things off the top of my mind are:

1) if you are interested in a top firm, start on that track in your first year. If you''ve waited to 2nd or 3rd year, it''s almost too late.
2) 1st year is hell and it gets much, much easier as a 2L or 3L.
3) Take classes that you enjoy when you have a chance.
4) Participate in a clinic if you have the time/chance.
5) Law school teaches you very little real-life knowledge. You won''t get this until you''re out there in the real world.
6) It truly will get easier and it''s designed to be a huge weeding out process.
7) Study in groups.
8) Make outlines for every class to help study.
9) Talk to your professors when you have questions. Some of them are actually nice and very willing to talk to you.

Hope that''s useful. I don''t do transactional work so couldn''t give any tips about that.
 

Gypsy

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Thanks Dixie! That was helpful.

Yeah... the not doing transactional work is like shooting myself in the foot with this. Might have to just stick with what I know and forget the transactional stuff.
 

Gypsy

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THANKS BLUEROSES!! Much appreciated!
 

jadeleaves

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Hi Gypsy,

I don't know much about US transactional law, but I would imagine the basics are the same everywhere.

In Australia, a first yr associate will generally do a lot of contracts review, prepare formation documents, research and check corporations law. Subsequent years will see more negotiating and drafting contracts and corporate counselling on acquisitions, divesting etc.

I love the corporate aspect of it, being paid to protect my client and think about how things can go wrong and dreaming up all the possibilities about what clause c would mean if X happens, if Y happens, is it the best result for my client, drafting contracts and wording it in a way that would be most beneficial to my client but also meet the other party's needs. Imagination plays a large part in it, and that, to me, is what makes an otherwise boring process (drafting/review) fun. However, it gets a bit tiring to be so suspicious of everyone all the time.

Sometimes clients will ask why I think the worst of everyone when it comes to negotiating the finer points of a contract, and they usually shut up when I point out that I am doing it to protect them in case the other party is a skunk - hey, the other party's lawyers are paid to do the same thing, and I don't see why I can't be as much of a shark as I can be to ensure my client can come up the winner if anything bad happens. Afterall, that's what contracts are meant for - you use it to enforce what was agreed and entered into.

Hope this helps!

ETA: One more thing - the reason why I prefer this to litigation is because we deal with the possibilities of something going wrong (and perhaps be able to prevent it), as opposed to litigation where something has gone wrong
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Gypsy

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Jade... thanks so much. That actually helped quite a LOT. Thanks so much for chiming in!
 

jadeleaves

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Date: 6/13/2006 1:00:01 AM
Author: Gypsy
Jade... thanks so much. That actually helped quite a LOT. Thanks so much for chiming in!

No probs! Let me know if you need anything else!
 

strmrdr

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one second?
That will be $950 dollars plus $29.95 transcription fee plus a $295 dictation fee.
Payable to c.a.s.h
 

littlelysser

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Alright...I''ll chime in here...

I was a litigation associate at a big firm for 4 years. It was horrid.

Anyhoodle...

What I wish someone had told me:

1. Law Review is very important. Almost impossible to get a big firm job without it. Clerksihps are darn near impossible without it.

2. Law school is a competitive place. Everyone knows how important good grades are - but there are only so many good grades to give out. I lost friends because of grades and jobs. I never expected that would happen.

3. First year is the most important year - particularly when you are talking about jobs for new grads. As you get further along in practice, grades, of course, become less important in most areas of the law.

4. The summer associate programs at a big firms are a joke. Working for a big firm is HORRID. absolutely horrid. People told me that, but I figured it would be different for me. Guess what? It wasn''t. When you are making between $125-145 K/year, they expect you to do what they want when they want it and you are an entirely fungible good.

5. A lot of lawyers at big firms have substance abuse issues.

6. Um, apparently working at a big firm can make one bitter.
 

Gypsy

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ARGH! It just wiped my post.

littlelysser I knew about the bitter thing. Good friend of mine did big firm for 4 years then went in house at a fortune 5. She's still bitter... and we don't talk at all, anymore. It changes you.

May I use parts of your list? (Actually this goes for Jadeleaves and dixie94 too). Express consent would be nice.
2.gif


Also... what are you doing now? (just for my own information... not for material... I'm curious)

STORM!! LMAO!
 

Gemklctr

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Gypsy, sorry I''m late to this. I''ve been off doing what transactional lawyers do.
2.gif
You''ve gotten some good information from Jade; I would only add that young associates frequently also get involved in the "due diligence" for deals. That means they check out subject of the transaction, including the other side, prepare the schedules of assets and liabilities, ensure that all of the assets are in good standing with corporate or other regulators (such as the FCC if you''re buying a television station, for example), and generally seek to ensure that the deal is as advertised. This requires both book research and field work, checking documents and files at both corporate locations and regulatory agencies and sometimes even inspecting facilities.

Can''t help you much on law school, that was too long ago, but I do recall thinking that if I had known more about the bar exam I might not have gone.
20.gif


On the other hand, I''ve spent more than 25 years in a large firm (including a split off that itself is now a large firm), and I''ve found that the positives have far outweighed the negatives, especially in terms of the quality of the available work and, fortunately for me, the people I have had the pleasure to work with. Every firm has its own personality, and there are at least some out there that are not the stereotypical hellish sweatshop.

Consider this my express consent to use any of the above you find helpful.
 

akw94

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You have my consent to use any/all parts of the list.

I am a criminal atty.
 

Gypsy

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Thanks Dixie! Crim huh? You like it?


ETA: GemKlctr ! Didn't see you there. I was going to ask about DD, but forgot... it came up on a job interview once (I would like to transactional work, so I've been interviewing for positions
20.gif
). Thanks for the added information... as for law school and the bar. LMAO the bar was HONESTLY my favorite part of the whole experience. I know... I'm nuts. LOL.

My character does not feel the same way about the bar as I do, however... lol. I figure that in that case, the truth is stranger than fiction... and that no one would believe it if I wrote it.
 

Gemklctr

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Date: 6/13/2006 5:04:38 PM
Author: Gypsy
Thanks Dixie! Crim huh? You like it?


ETA: GemKlctr ! Didn''t see you there. I was going to ask about DD, but forgot... it came up on a job interview once (I would like to transactional work, so I''ve been interviewing for positions
20.gif
). Thanks for the added information... as for law school and the bar. LMAO the bar was HONESTLY my favorite part of the whole experience. I know... I''m nuts. LOL.

My character does not feel the same way about the bar as I do, however... lol. I figure that in that case, the truth is stranger than fiction... and that no one would believe it if I wrote it.
Funny, I thoroughly enjoyed law school, at least when I wasn''t bored, but the class/study regimen for the bar was torture (the exam itself was a relief). The only thing that got me through it was the thought that if I didn''t pass I would have to do it again.
23.gif
 

Gypsy

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I had a hard time in lawschool. I had family members (one of whom was my mother) having serious (near fatal) problems so I was in CA a lot (law school at Gtown)-- and it started first year so I never (and I swear before God and on my cat''s lives this is true) learned the IRAC CIRAC thing until I was studying for the bar... so my lawschool exams were torture. Because of the family issues it took me 5 years to get enough credits to graduate (kept having to drop courses). So basically law school was just torture for me. My family is from another country and no one had ever gone to law school here in the US (engineers a plenty though!) so I had no idea what I was doing and no guidance. My teachers half the time felt sorry for me with the family emergencies, half the time just didn''t have the patience and completely diregarded the whole thing. To top it all off I was in an ''alternative ciriculum program'' first year that Gtown offers which was exactly the wrong thing for someone like me who needs structure when learning.

Studying for the bar, however was fabulous! I''ve always had the discipline to study on my own so time management wasn''t an issue, the classes were structured properly and the subjects-- subject I had studied (supposedly) my first year were so CLEAR and frankly, easy! It was like an epiphany. The exam itself was just another goal to work toward... and well... I took two exams at once and passed both. So, yeah... the bar exam was my favorite part.
23.gif
 

jadeleaves

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Date: 6/13/2006 2:49:06 PM
Author: strmrdr
one second?

That will be $950 dollars plus $29.95 transcription fee plus a $295 dictation fee.

Payable to c.a.s.h

LMAO here
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If I could bill for every minute I spend on PS, I am well on my way to my big-big-big-forever upgrade
2.gif


And of cos you can use whatever I posted here, Gypsy!
 

Gypsy

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Thanks Jade. Um Jade??? Your postscript. It''s um... are you okay? I know your preggers and all but... that''s not a happy sentiment... and I''ve been wanting to ask, but also didn''t want to pry... but, well. Um... everything alright?
 

jadeleaves

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Ohh it''s been one of those weeks - long hours, staying up way past my bedtime to deal with clients on the other side of the world, being fustrated with people who loves the sound of their own voice and paying good money for advice they are not taking (you can add that to what I hate about transactional work!!), trying to keep the deal afloat and add very bad heartburn plus backache to that mix!

Ahh I feel better now I got that off my chest. Thanks for your concern!!!

xoxo.
 

Gypsy

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Date: 6/13/2006 8:22:42 PM
Author: jadeleaves
Ohh it's been one of those weeks - long hours, staying up way past my bedtime to deal with clients on the other side of the world, being fustrated with people who loves the sound of their own voice and paying good money for advice they are not taking (you can add that to what I hate about transactional work!!), trying to keep the deal afloat and add very bad heartburn plus backache to that mix!

Ahh I feel better now I got that off my chest. Thanks for your concern!!!

xoxo.

Anytime. Hope you feel better soon.

ETA: What is the line from BTW? Or did you just make it up? It seems well, very accurate for how you are feeling. Uncannily so.l
 

jadeleaves

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I wrote it ages ago - used to dabble in a little bit of writing as well, so I''m very interested to follow your progress for the novel!!
 

Gypsy

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It''s a great line. Actually reminds me of my FI''s poetry. I was thinking about using it... but no worries I promise I won''t if it''s from your writing.

As for following the progress of my book... Will have to post a scene soon. A G rated one this time (*blushing*).
 

jadeleaves

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Thank you!

I don''t really mind if you want to use it - I am flattered in fact. Maybe one day that can be my ''brush'' with fame when you become rich and famous for your writings
2.gif
 

Gypsy

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ROFLMAO. My book, in terms of story and voice and characterization is solid. I know that much. But it needs SERIOUS copy editing and content editing as well. I''m one of those writers that have a hard time deleting things they write. Of course, I''ve gotten better, I just cut and paste to a new doc if it doesn''t work with the book... but I still keep the suckers.
20.gif


Still I''ve been moving well on it and for the first time... I know it''s going to work. Like to an ending I''m satisfied with. But I''m not sure there''s an audience for it. There are many GREAT books unpublished out there because well, publishers don''t feel there are audiences for them. Mine is one of those in all likelihood.

BTW... where in AUS are you? I''ve forgotten. I have (tons) of family in Sydney and have been out there... four times. Not just to Sydney, to AUS.
 

Gemklctr

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Date: 6/13/2006 5:59:27 PM
Author: Gypsy
I had a hard time in lawschool. I had family members (one of whom was my mother) having serious (near fatal) problems so I was in CA a lot (law school at Gtown)-- and it started first year so I never (and I swear before God and on my cat''s lives this is true) learned the IRAC CIRAC thing until I was studying for the bar... so my lawschool exams were torture. Because of the family issues it took me 5 years to get enough credits to graduate (kept having to drop courses). So basically law school was just torture for me. My family is from another country and no one had ever gone to law school here in the US (engineers a plenty though!) so I had no idea what I was doing and no guidance. My teachers half the time felt sorry for me with the family emergencies, half the time just didn''t have the patience and completely diregarded the whole thing. To top it all off I was in an ''alternative ciriculum program'' first year that Gtown offers which was exactly the wrong thing for someone like me who needs structure when learning.

Studying for the bar, however was fabulous! I''ve always had the discipline to study on my own so time management wasn''t an issue, the classes were structured properly and the subjects-- subject I had studied (supposedly) my first year were so CLEAR and frankly, easy! It was like an epiphany. The exam itself was just another goal to work toward... and well... I took two exams at once and passed both. So, yeah... the bar exam was my favorite part.
23.gif
Sorry to hear this. We hire from Georgetown a good bit, and I''ve heard mostly positive reviews of people''s experiences there, so it''s a shame your family issues denied you that enjoyment. But, big kudos for sticking it out and graduating. How is the job search going?
 

littlelysser

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Gypsy - Use whatever you want. No worries.

And I''m currently a deputy law clerk for an intermediate appelate state court judge. I LOVE it.

I actually loved law school...the reading and research, the analysis and the writing - and most importantly the ultimate goal of finding the correct outcome. That was really missing in private litigation. I found myself taking positions on behalf of clients that I knew were not supported by the law...and making arguments that I personally didn''t believe in. And going through discovery...and trying to make sure that you give enough information and documents so that you get slapped with a motion to compel, but trying to withhold enough to make it tough on the other side...Blech. Just didn''t sit right with me. Now, the money??? Oh the money sat very well with me. I have about 15 designer bags...all bought during my time at the big firms. Anyway, clerking is a great fit for me. Once, I was told by a partner that my writing was more like a clerk''s writing or a law review article rather than an advocate''s brief...so yeah. I guess I have always been more of an clerk/professor type than an advocate. Oh yeah...and boy do I NOT miss billable hours. having to keep track of my time in 6 minute increments got old really quickly.

I am much happier schedule wise (I work 9-4:30 with an hour for lunch), vacation wise (I actually get them and can take them) and work wise. My job is to determine the correct outcome applying the law to the facts of each case. I don''t have to advocate for anything - except when the judge and I disagree on something...and well, he usually wins...because, you know, he''s the judge!!

One other thing, based upon my coworkers'' experiences at big firms...I know that transactional work tends to have a real ebb and flow to it. People will be crushed for a few weeks...and then have next to nothing to do for a month...once the deal is done, things are pretty slow.

Anything else I can answer?
 

Gypsy

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Date: 6/14/2006 9:13:37 AM
Author: GemKlctr

Date: 6/13/2006 5:59:27 PM
Author: Gypsy
I had a hard time in lawschool. I had family members (one of whom was my mother) having serious (near fatal) problems so I was in CA a lot (law school at Gtown)-- and it started first year so I never (and I swear before God and on my cat''s lives this is true) learned the IRAC CIRAC thing until I was studying for the bar... so my lawschool exams were torture. Because of the family issues it took me 5 years to get enough credits to graduate (kept having to drop courses). So basically law school was just torture for me. My family is from another country and no one had ever gone to law school here in the US (engineers a plenty though!) so I had no idea what I was doing and no guidance. My teachers half the time felt sorry for me with the family emergencies, half the time just didn''t have the patience and completely diregarded the whole thing. To top it all off I was in an ''alternative ciriculum program'' first year that Gtown offers which was exactly the wrong thing for someone like me who needs structure when learning.

Studying for the bar, however was fabulous! I''ve always had the discipline to study on my own so time management wasn''t an issue, the classes were structured properly and the subjects-- subject I had studied (supposedly) my first year were so CLEAR and frankly, easy! It was like an epiphany. The exam itself was just another goal to work toward... and well... I took two exams at once and passed both. So, yeah... the bar exam was my favorite part.
23.gif
Sorry to hear this. We hire from Georgetown a good bit, and I''ve heard mostly positive reviews of people''s experiences there, so it''s a shame your family issues denied you that enjoyment. But, big kudos for sticking it out and graduating. How is the job search going?
I won''t lie to you. There were times I was sitting there and quitting law school was so very tempting. But... well. Ego, or pride... and my fiance''s support kept me from doing it. It although I was on a first name basis with The Registrar...lol.

The job hunt. It''s not going well, but that''s to be expected. I can''t really maximize placement agencies because my practice experience is minimal, so I have to apply to firms directly (looking at smaller firms around 60-80 lawyers or so) but again... I''m neither fish (new grad) nor fowl (lateral hire), so I''m a bit of a challenge to place. It''s going to take someone who is willing to think ''outside'' the box.Even with the Georgetown name behind me. I was told by placement agencies (the ones who took the time to talk to me) that I would have the best luck applying directly to firms as they might be willing to take a chance on me if they don''t have to pay an agency fee. So I''m applying as broadly as I can-- and nationally.

AND... my ''troubles'' didn''t end with the Bar. I took both NJ and NY bar exams and passed first time out. But, I graduated in October of 2002 officially, finished coursework in July. And was in a very bad car accident in September and couldn''t take the February Bar. Had to wait until July of 2003. No big thing you''re thinking... right? Wait, it gets better.

SO I passed and of course, applied to NJ Board of Bar examiners (wanted to wait to apply to NY as I had three years from notification to do so... and wanted to be well employed before paying fees and such) and ... wait for it. I am from CA, they needed my driving record from CA. Quick and easy thing right? I spent over $300 in fees alone trying to get the correct form for NJ... to no avail. CA didn''t understand what NJ wanted... and CA''s records are kept in one office in Sacramento (not in the regional offices open to public) that can only be contacted via snail mail. My poor NJ committee member kept giving me extensions, getting the wrong form (I flew out to CA three times to get the right one. Nope), and giving me extensions.

Then she was appointed to government post and my file was returned to the NJ board of Bar examiners. I was told to wait until it was reassigned for contact. Well, I waited, and collected forms in the meantime until a ridiculous amount of time passed. fortunately I was working at the time... and I loved my job... But I called them up when I was let go because of budget cuts (worked for a state university). My file had never been reassigned. I was past the 90 day deadline (
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) and would have to re-take the bar or appeal to the Supreme Court of NJ.

The Supreme Court of NJ laughed (months later). Not a funny laugh. Scolded the Board of Bar Examiners and gave me time to get this done. Thanks to the Court, I was FINALLY admitted to practice THIS January.

All this is very hard (impossible) to explain in a cover letter. So... that''s why I say that I am expecting this to be difficult. But... I''ve had it with document review, and frankly I deserve better than to be a temp with no respect or job security for the rest of my career. So... I''m willing to take it as it comes.

Here''s part of my cover letter:

For the two years following my graduation from Georgetown I worked at the Center for Urban Policy Research at Rutgers University where I enjoyed my position as the department''s legal advisor. I accepted this position because it allowed me to the opportunity to study and impact, at a policy level, land use law. I have most recently worked as a contract attorney assisting with the review and preparation of documents for litigation. While I value this experience, I greatly miss the unique challenges of land use and real estate law. Having worked in and academic arena focused on land use, I am looking for a challenging junior level associate position that maximizes the strong foundation my work at Rutgers afforded me while expanding practical experience.


I really do like land use law. And what Jadeleaves said about liking her job because it allowed her to prevent disaster really struck a cord with me. Fortunately, land use law is in demand nationally at the moment... so hopefully it will just be a matter of time before someone decides to take a chance on me.
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Sorry for the LOOOONG story... but I''m feeling frustrated today (mail came along with 5 ''We are sorry" letters) and just... needed to vent.
 

Gypsy

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Date: 6/14/2006 10:08:35 AM
Author: littlelysser
Gypsy - Use whatever you want. No worries.

And I''m currently a deputy law clerk for an intermediate appelate state court judge. I LOVE it.

I actually loved law school...the reading and research, the analysis and the writing - and most importantly the ultimate goal of finding the correct outcome. That was really missing in private litigation. I found myself taking positions on behalf of clients that I knew were not supported by the law...and making arguments that I personally didn''t believe in. And going through discovery...and trying to make sure that you give enough information and documents so that you get slapped with a motion to compel, but trying to withhold enough to make it tough on the other side...Blech. Just didn''t sit right with me. Now, the money??? Oh the money sat very well with me. I have about 15 designer bags...all bought during my time at the big firms. Anyway, clerking is a great fit for me. Once, I was told by a partner that my writing was more like a clerk''s writing or a law review article rather than an advocate''s brief...so yeah. I guess I have always been more of an clerk/professor type than an advocate. Oh yeah...and boy do I NOT miss billable hours. having to keep track of my time in 6 minute increments got old really quickly.

I am much happier schedule wise (I work 9-4:30 with an hour for lunch), vacation wise (I actually get them and can take them) and work wise. My job is to determine the correct outcome applying the law to the facts of each case. I don''t have to advocate for anything - except when the judge and I disagree on something...and well, he usually wins...because, you know, he''s the judge!!

One other thing, based upon my coworkers'' experiences at big firms...I know that transactional work tends to have a real ebb and flow to it. People will be crushed for a few weeks...and then have next to nothing to do for a month...once the deal is done, things are pretty slow.

Anything else I can answer?

No, it''s great that you are in such a good place right now. That''s my biggest regret about my law career. I can''t clerk. I love writing and research. That''s what I did for two years at Rutgers. It was fabulous. I know others who are doing it and they love it as well... those who are suited for it, that is. I don''t think I''m a big firm person... long term. But I need to put in my time and get through it so that I can have the future I want. I would like to practice for 4 years or so. Then I''d like to become a legislative bill drafter. Big cut in pay, but I have talked to people who do it and it''s fabulous... like clerking it''s all research and writing and... of course, dealing with politican''s about what their goals are, and how best to accomplish that goal in terms of the actual drafting processs. I applied for 8 state billdrafting jobs (they post in the summer) last year... and will apply again this year... on the off chance that without practice experience they''ll take me (and my experience at Rutgers was strong, I got a publication out of it too) I got two interviews last year-- so we''ll see.

But practicing would be better for a while, I''d get experience that could eventually lead to a federal drafting position. The golden ring, for me. Thanks so much for your input littlelysse and your permission.
 

codex57

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How''s the book coming along? Still want more people to chime in?

I interned and (I suppose) was a summer associate at a bigger law firm in Cali (claimed to be mid-sized, the law mags seem to lump them into the big firm category). I did mainly litigation there but did get a bit in the transactional side.

People pretty much covered it tho. Everyone hates billable hours. Litigation for first years mainly consists of various research projects with memos or digging through discovery. Transactional has a lotta due diligence crap (kinda similar to digging through discovery actually) and there it is pretty up and down with you being slammed one month and just twiddling your thumbs for another when the deal is done.

One thing I wish they told me was to kinda figure out what kinda law you want to do much earlier on. It''s getting pretty specialized now. You practically have to know coming out of high school so you can pick the right major in college that will set you up for law school. Also, taking "law" classes in college won''t impress the schools as much as you might think since a lot of admissions people feel the school will have to untrain you when you get there. But yeah, your 1L year pretty much makes or breaks you. If you wanna go to a big firm, you better have connections or else have done law review/clerk for some judge.
 

Gypsy

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Thanks Codex that was great! Yeah, it is getting very specialized. I know at G-town they MUCH prefered math, english, history, and science majors to pre-law or poli sci majors.
 
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