Opposition to same sex marriage ruling

[kenny]

From the people I know who oppose gay marriage, here is what I have gathered...1) they are upset because the definition of "marriage" has been sullied in their mind. It is between one man and one woman. Not two women, not two men. 2) They worry that the country is in moral decay and that this is a slippery slope. Next people will want to allow three people to get married, or an adult and an underage child, or a brother and a sister, or a person and his pet. What will be next? 3) They do not believe that a gay marriage is the optimal environment for a child to grow up in. Children need both a mother and a father. Neither parent is replaceable. 4) Their religion tells them that it is a sin. They very much believe it is.

Note: these are not my opinions. These are merely what I have heard from opposers of gay marriage.

Can we have a mature and calm discussion about those points?

I hear you that this is not your perspective.

It's challenging to be mature and calm when they threw the first rock by saying I 'sully' their marriage, and by calling marriage equality moral decay.

Marriage equality is actually the end of one form or moral decay that THEY caused.

The status quo was they were superior, and I was inferior.
Now we are equal (in only this one way ... so far ).

They are pissed they have lost their superiority (superiority disguised as morality).
What they've been taught (that gay is more sinful than straight) is wrong, and now they have to drop it and spend generations adjusting to what is right.

 

[Tekate]

It's unfortunate that these people believe these things, to me they are judging others actions, which they are allowed to do, what is wrong is when groups force their opinion on those who don't believe in the same ideas. Block others to rights they can have themselves.

I suspect these people may have been the type of persons who felt marriage between blacks and whites was illegal. Time has shown that to be just fine.

I am still having trouble grasping the thought process of those who oppose gay marriage. How does it affect your life and your marriage? Why are those who oppose gay marriage sticking your noses into other people's private matters? How does it make your life less (less good, less worthy, less important, less happy)?

Limiting someone's civil and/or human rights for what reason? I am not trying to stir up more trouble but genuinely having a difficult time understanding why those who are opposed are opposed to this?

Is it because you think they are less worthy of getting married? Should they not be able to enjoy and share a happy union with the love of their life and enjoy all the benefits (and of course consequences too) associated with marriage? Why don't they deserve the same benefits straight couples have? Why is it OK to separate people into different groups deeming some more worthy of others of enjoying rights such as legal marriage?

I think religion has too much of a stronghold on this country and that should never be OK. Everyone matters and everyone counts and one religion is not better than another and atheists are not less worthy than religious individuals who are not less worthy than agnostics and so on and so forth. I wish we would stop dividing and separating people based on differences and instead embrace others for who they are and not what religion they follow, for who they love, how they dress or how they see themselves gender wise etc etc etc. Let's please just stop the madness and let's love or at least respect each other for who we are and show each other some kindness, acceptance and tolerance. The world would be a whole lot better off if we could do that. In many ways it reminds me of a high school clique with the cool kids deeming the others unworthy. What's that song high school never ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OsjBYxrR0c


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5M2gZoc_0

From the people I know who oppose gay marriage, here is what I have gathered...1) they are upset because the definition of "marriage" has been sullied in their mind. It is between one man and one woman. Not two women, not two men. 2) They worry that the country is in moral decay and that this is a slippery slope. Next people will want to allow three people to get married, or an adult and an underage child, or a brother and a sister, or a person and his pet. What will be next? 3) They do not believe that a gay marriage is the optimal environment for a child to grow up in. Children need both a mother and a father. Neither parent is replaceable. 4) Their religion tells them that it is a sin. They very much believe it is.

Note: these are not my opinions. These are merely what I have heard from opposers of gay marriage.

Can we have a mature and calm discussion about those points?

 

[telephone89]

Many Muslim countries allow and practise polygamy, usually up to a maximum of 5 wives, based on the Quran teachings. However, the reverse is not allowed. Would such a marriage be considered legal or illegal here in the US?

So far as I know (which is more so based on the mroe moderate muslim culture/religion), the govt just doesnt recognize the other wives. It's not legal, or illegal, you just can't (eta - I guess that makes it illegal? Lol). So, you marry one wife 'legally' and just support the rest. They consider themselves all married, and have a religious ceremony (nikkah) and that is regcognized by god (allah), and bam, theyre married. In the US/Canada, the nikkah actually means nothing, and is akin to children holding hands and saying 'I do', and from an employment standpoint, there would be no spousal benefits. So, I'm sure it happens, but it just isnt recognized.

 

[chemgirl]

So in effect, you are saying that no ones beliefs are valid but your own.

It's not about my beliefs are valid and yours aren't.
It's about doing harm.

Beliefs that results in voting to deny rights to others does harm so such beliefs are wrong and must/will eventually be dropped.

I'm not stupid, this will not happen 100% or even happen in our generation.
Slavery was abolished long ago but thinking of blacks as inferior lives on today.

Marriage equality harms nobody.
Denying it does.

Actually, DS makes a good point, Kenny. Does marriage inequality do actual harm?? Not really. Is it right? Not to me. I'm glad this law passed. It doesn't affect me whatsoever, and I believe everyone should be able to legally marry the person they want, regardless of sexual preference.

What if a person is in love with an animal (or a car or whatever you can think of) and wants to marry it and use it as a tax deduction? They may think it's harmful to them that they aren't able to legally do so. Well, that's beastiality, you say, "just plain weird" or even cruel and devious, and not at all like what we're discussing. It's not what the majority believe as traditional or even "normal", but to that person, it's very real. It may seem crazy to bring up something like that, but it's the same principle.

Why is this post still on the board? Why is this poster this on the board?

In msop04's defense what she (he?) posts is logical ... IMO silly because allowing marriage to dogs or cars just won't happen ... but logical, and the last sentence of his/her post is for me an adequate disclaimer.

To be honest this really upsets me. Marriage, and I assume sex with a living creature that has no capacity to understand what's happening to them is abusive and cannot be related to same sex marriage in any way.

 

[chemgirl]

It's unfortunate that these people believe these things, to me they are judging others actions, which they are allowed to do, what is wrong is when groups force their opinion on those who don't believe in the same ideas. Block others to rights they can have themselves.

I suspect these people may have been the type of persons who felt marriage between blacks and whites was illegal. Time has shown that to be just fine.

I am still having trouble grasping the thought process of those who oppose gay marriage. How does it affect your life and your marriage? Why are those who oppose gay marriage sticking your noses into other people's private matters? How does it make your life less (less good, less worthy, less important, less happy)?

Limiting someone's civil and/or human rights for what reason? I am not trying to stir up more trouble but genuinely having a difficult time understanding why those who are opposed are opposed to this?

Is it because you think they are less worthy of getting married? Should they not be able to enjoy and share a happy union with the love of their life and enjoy all the benefits (and of course consequences too) associated with marriage? Why don't they deserve the same benefits straight couples have? Why is it OK to separate people into different groups deeming some more worthy of others of enjoying rights such as legal marriage?

I think religion has too much of a stronghold on this country and that should never be OK. Everyone matters and everyone counts and one religion is not better than another and atheists are not less worthy than religious individuals who are not less worthy than agnostics and so on and so forth. I wish we would stop dividing and separating people based on differences and instead embrace others for who they are and not what religion they follow, for who they love, how they dress or how they see themselves gender wise etc etc etc. Let's please just stop the madness and let's love or at least respect each other for who we are and show each other some kindness, acceptance and tolerance. The world would be a whole lot better off if we could do that. In many ways it reminds me of a high school clique with the cool kids deeming the others unworthy. What's that song high school never ends.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OsjBYxrR0c


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r5M2gZoc_0

From the people I know who oppose gay marriage, here is what I have gathered...1) they are upset because the definition of "marriage" has been sullied in their mind. It is between one man and one woman. Not two women, not two men. 2) They worry that the country is in moral decay and that this is a slippery slope. Next people will want to allow three people to get married, or an adult and an underage child, or a brother and a sister, or a person and his pet. What will be next? 3) They do not believe that a gay marriage is the optimal environment for a child to grow up in. Children need both a mother and a father. Neither parent is replaceable. 4) Their religion tells them that it is a sin. They very much believe it is.

Note: these are not my opinions. These are merely what I have heard from opposers of gay marriage.

Can we have a mature and calm discussion about those points?

I'm in Canada where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years. These points are exactly what my church argued when they tried to get my youth group to protest a political event. Last time I've ever set foot in church.

In the past 10 years none of these things have happened. Marriage is between any two consenting adults. Age of consent has actually increased. We're good. Nothing to worry about.

As far as family makeup, I strongly believe that a child is better off in a situation where both parents are supportive of one another. I think it has less to do with gender and more to do with the individuals involved.

Eta: I don't mean any disrespect to single parent households. A nurturing environment is more important than gender.

 

[telephone89]

I'm in Canada where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years. These points are exactly what my church argued when they tried to get my youth group to protest a political event. Last time I've ever set foot in church.

In the past 10 years none of these things have happened. Marriage is between any two consenting adults. Age of consent has actually increased. We're good. Nothing to worry about.

As far as family makeup, I strongly believe that a child is better off in a situation where both parents are supportive of one another. I think it has less to do with gender and more to do with the individuals involved.

I would also expand this to single parents. I'd rather have a child with a stable, supportive single mom/dad than with 2 parents who are fighting or abusive. Regardless of gender, a healthy loving environment is far more important.

 

[chemgirl]

I'm in Canada where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years. These points are exactly what my church argued when they tried to get my youth group to protest a political event. Last time I've ever set foot in church.

In the past 10 years none of these things have happened. Marriage is between any two consenting adults. Age of consent has actually increased. We're good. Nothing to worry about.

As far as family makeup, I strongly believe that a child is better off in a situation where both parents are supportive of one another. I think it has less to do with gender and more to do with the individuals involved.

I would also expand this to single parents. I'd rather have a child with a stable, supportive single mom/dad than with 2 parents who are fighting or abusive. Regardless of gender, a healthy loving environment is far more important.

I totally agree. An oversight on my part.

 

[telephone89]

I'm in Canada where gay marriage has been legal for 10 years. These points are exactly what my church argued when they tried to get my youth group to protest a political event. Last time I've ever set foot in church.

In the past 10 years none of these things have happened. Marriage is between any two consenting adults. Age of consent has actually increased. We're good. Nothing to worry about.

As far as family makeup, I strongly believe that a child is better off in a situation where both parents are supportive of one another. I think it has less to do with gender and more to do with the individuals involved.

I would also expand this to single parents. I'd rather have a child with a stable, supportive single mom/dad than with 2 parents who are fighting or abusive. Regardless of gender, a healthy loving environment is far more important.

I totally agree. An oversight on my part.

I totally wasnt trying to make it out that way, no need to be sorry! I am from a single parent household, and honestly didnt take any offence to your statement, I just wanted to add to it

 

[packrat]

It's hard for someone brought up to believe X, and everyone around you tells you X is right and Y is wrong and God is only happy if X and if Y then you spend eternity in hell, to then turn around and say "hey, you know what, X can be right, but so can Y."

I was brought up to believe X and that Y was wrong. It wasn't until I got older and had different life experiences, meeting different people and expanded my horizons..as much as I guess a girl can in Iowa haha, that I started to wrinkle my nose and second guess things, question things. I

Part of the difference maybe is that at the same time I was taught X was right and Y was wrong, the same people taught me that no matter what, it wasn't up to me to judge someone for Y, and that ultimately it was about the person himself or herself, what was in their heart and what kind of a person he/she was. X or Y does not "make" a person who they are, it does not and should not define them as good or bad.

So. It's hard to go against how you were raised. My second guessing didn't come about out of the blue, I didn't just wake up one day and have an epiphany. I met people who changed my way of thinking. And they didn't do it by freaking out or calling me names for how I believed, calling me ignorant or stupid or arrogant or holier than thou or whatever else, they did it w/their actions. Just like I try to show by my actions that not all tattooed people are freaks or to be mistrusted. (tho I do think I'm kinda a bad ass ) Not all gun owners are out to kill people. Not all LEO's are asshats. Not all those who rock out to heavy metal are Satanists. That's how you change minds.

It's hard to do and lord knows I've not had the things to deal w/that others have-I could hide my tattoos or change the radio station for example. A lot of people believe that sexual orientation really does define a person as good or bad and makes a person who they are.

I wish we could get to a place where we aren't defined by the color of our skin or sexual orientation or gender or where we come from or our religion or how we vote or what we choose to listen to or adorn ourselves with or anything else. It's a part of us, a part of what makes us, us, but shouldn't be the sole definition of us. But..the majority of what I see around me, leads me to believe that I am a dreamer, like Ozzy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCCiwPEdEpg and I imagine, like Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

And that makes me sad.

 

[kenny]

Packrat, thank you for your very honest and heartfelt post.

Something tells me it's people like you who know the way forward.

 

[sarahb]

It's hard for someone brought up to believe X, and everyone around you tells you X is right and Y is wrong and God is only happy if X and if Y then you spend eternity in hell, to then turn around and say "hey, you know what, X can be right, but so can Y."

I was brought up to believe X and that Y was wrong. It wasn't until I got older and had different life experiences, meeting different people and expanded my horizons..as much as I guess a girl can in Iowa haha, that I started to wrinkle my nose and second guess things, question things. I

Part of the difference maybe is that at the same time I was taught X was right and Y was wrong, the same people taught me that no matter what, it wasn't up to me to judge someone for Y, and that ultimately it was about the person himself or herself, what was in their heart and what kind of a person he/she was. X or Y does not "make" a person who they are, it does not and should not define them as good or bad.

So. It's hard to go against how you were raised. My second guessing didn't come about out of the blue, I didn't just wake up one day and have an epiphany. I met people who changed my way of thinking. And they didn't do it by freaking out or calling me names for how I believed, calling me ignorant or stupid or arrogant or holier than thou or whatever else, they did it w/their actions. Just like I try to show by my actions that not all tattooed people are freaks or to be mistrusted. (tho I do think I'm kinda a bad a$$ ) Not all gun owners are out to kill people. Not all LEO's are asshats. Not all those who rock out to heavy metal are Satanists. That's how you change minds.

It's hard to do and lord knows I've not had the things to deal w/that others have-I could hide my tattoos or change the radio station for example. A lot of people believe that sexual orientation really does define a person as good or bad and makes a person who they are.

I wish we could get to a place where we aren't defined by the color of our skin or sexual orientation or gender or where we come from or our religion or how we vote or what we choose to listen to or adorn ourselves with or anything else. It's a part of us, a part of what makes us, us, but shouldn't be the sole definition of us. But..the majority of what I see around me, leads me to believe that I am a dreamer, like Ozzy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCCiwPEdEpg and I imagine, like Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

And that makes me sad.

I love what you said PR--every word. Thank you.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Laila,
Do you know whether these same people (that you know) also believe that divorce should not be legal and permissible? It is mind boggling if they believe that a child is better off in a dysfunctional male+female marriage than in a happy and committed same sex marriage.

These same people are very vocal about divorce and don't believe in it. It is basically "avoid at all costs."

That used to be true (30 yrs ago) in the Chinese community but nowadays it is very common.

 

[kenny]

WAY fewer gay people have ever gotten divorces than straight people.
Clearly we are better than you. ...

 

[Gypsy]

I don't understand the mindset anyone had when they made a corporation a person w/rights. Does that mean *all* corporations are "people" now, or just HL? I don't know anything about legal mumbo jumbo but it just seems like it opened up a whole new batch of crazy.

Yes, all corporations are now recognized as having the some of the same legal rights as an individual would.

I don't think it's all. I think it's only "closely held" corporations but I could be wrong. Although I'm pretty sure no one bothered to define closely held.

 

[Gypsy]

I personally do not have any moral issues with polygamy,

In theory I wouldn't have any moral issues with polygamy but, because of the way I see polygamy practiced in America, I do.
I'm okay with polygamy for truly consenting adults.
It's none of my business and it doesn't harm me.

But I believe the vast majority of women in polygamous marriages (in America) are not truly consenting.
These women were isolated and brainwashed from birth.

I've read about polygamy in 'communities' closed off from society, sometimes literally behind locked gates in Utah and surrounding states.
Girls are raised to believe the only way to heaven is to be one of the multiple wives of one man.
How nice for the men who get a new teen bride every decade of their lives.
It's easy for boys/men to be tossed out of these communities because of simple numbers; there aren't enough women to go around.
If the powerful men have several wives there are no women for the less-powerful men.

Once again this kind of polygamy is not just another perspective that coexists and is morally equal to monogamy.

All beliefs are not okay, and any PC-ness that dictates this is hogwash.
When acting on beliefs results in harm to others those beliefs are not okay and equal.

I agree with this 10000000000000000%.

 

[Gypsy]

If you'd read, you would have known that I made it a point to say that I was not speaking of kenny or anyone in particular. Your post made mine above about kenny, not me. For that matter, YOU do not know kenny either. I wasn't attacking anyone.



It seems in the minds of our society, their are people/groups who simply cannot be discriminated against, no matter what. "Unless your view is the same as mine, you're wrong..."

One. I do know Kenny. Better than you at least. I've met him a couple times, talked to him for more an hour face to face, and I'm FB friends with him. Do I know him well? No. But I guarantee that I know him better than you. And two, while you may have put out a convenient disclaimer that your posts weren't about any person in particular, the way you were responding to Kenny's posts in particular certainly gave the impression that you were, indeed, speaking about him. I go with actions, not words in scenarios like this.


I have no idea what your last sentence means. "there are people who cannot be discriminated against," you'll have to clarify that one as I am scratching my head.

 

[Rhea]

I am still having trouble grasping the thought process of those who oppose gay marriage. How does it affect your life and your marriage? Why are those who oppose gay marriage sticking your noses into other people's private matters? How does it make your life less (less good, less worthy, less important, less happy)?

Limiting someone's civil and/or human rights for what reason? I am not trying to stir up more trouble but genuinely having a difficult time understanding why those who are opposed are opposed to this?

Quick background: born to a strict Catholic father and an incredibly Methodist mother (ka-boom!), went to Catholic private school through elementary school, baptised, confirmed - I wasn't going to hell as a child! Raised in the South of the US.

We're taught it from a young age and everything which challenges is good. But it's a slow process. Including challenging our parents as ideas and society changes. My poor parents After falling in with the lesbian crowd in college (I'm heterosexual through and through) my mother asked if I had a single straight friend. Nope! She became fine with that. But not if they were going to flaunt it. Smart-ass me points out that if that's the case could she please not hold my father's hand, rub his shoulders, kiss his check or lean too closely to him in public, they are flaunting their heterosexual relationship.

My parents have changed a lot and their ideas and values have as well, but it's not something they do as freely and openly. For them it's a huge change, for me less so, for my non-existent children, even less so. Society is improving, we'll get there.

My mother is more than ever a live and let live type of person. Her 2 wonderful children challenged her enough that she's fiercely protective and anything which may be seen as impeding on our rights or making us feel less sends her into Mama Tiger mode. My father, not as much. He's hung up on the marriage thing. And I get it. Marriage is one man, one woman to him. And strangely, and rather privilegely I understand. I'm not okay with the denial of rights which come with the inability to get married. Neither is dad.

I think the best bet would be separate, truly separate, the definition of a government sanctioned union and a religious union. Give both equal protection under federal and state laws, assuming the religious union is within the rules of the government. Call the government sanctioned union what you will and the religious union what you will. Let's go with a take on the UK version of the wording (pre-2013 when we changed), civil union and marriage. Save the marriage for those religious folks who want that and those of us, me included, who just want the union recognised in the eyes of the government, we'll be civil unionised. The homosexual couple who gets marriage in a Quaker meeting house, or any other place which is seen as religion, they'll be married. Set the sexual orientation issues aside and just go with what type of ceremony it is.

I get, truly, why this wouldn't work. Rewritting of laws and tons of other issues around wording, practice, loopholes, insurance, blah blah blah. I'm not actually campaigning for this, btw...an out and out we did this, too bad, move on works well for me. For my dad it's not the benefits and it's not a problem with homosexual couples getting together in the eyes of the government with equal protection and rights afforded to heterosexual couples. It's a wording problem with "marriage" and he's clearly not alone. It's the "marriage" word and what it means to him and has since childhood. He was so mixed on the day it happened. A big smile and a big, this is great but couldn't they call it something else, it's not marriage to him and he didn't want it called that. His Catholic sensibilities are and will continue to be offended by gay "marriage".

I understand dad is only one piece of the spectrum and there are those are who completely flat out opposed to gay rights at all, but I think dad's thought process is an important piece of why there are some who disagree with gay marriage. I would wager there are a lot like dad in this debate. He does understand that if a church permitted a gay couple to marry there that that would be called marriage in the little ruling we played with above. Dad is okay and even happy with that. He understands the need for wording to protect rights and a split along state and church is good with him. Not lesser (hopefully), just different. Dad does want gay couples to have rights because he's concerned about what happens to their children if they split or one dies. He gets it in a way.

Current standing:
Dad & Mom - church married with both a priest and minister.
Rhea & DH - government married. And according to my father's family, we're not actually married since we didn't do it in the Catholic church

 

[OreoRosies86]

I have an issue with separate but equal, no matter what kind of titles or benefits factor in.

 

[Rhea]

I have an issue with separate but equal, no matter what kind of titles or benefits factor in.

IDK, I don't want to be piled in with my father's Catholic family and have the same type of marriage they do.

Joking aside, if this is a response to my post, you'll see that I'm good with just calling it all marriage and moving on with it. Dad and I are simply hashing out a few things about why he thinks as he does and it turns out it's the word marriage. I was attempting to respond to Missy's post and give one example, my father, of the type of person who is struggling with gay marriage, why he thinks what he does, and what a suitable solution would be. I know no one died and made us king, but my family is normally pretty open with discussing politics and I love that we can hash it all out and figure what each other thinks. I truly believe that it helps us move forward.

How are everyone else's parents reacting and responding?

 

[missy]

Running late right now but just wanted to say quickly thanks for addressing my questions (Laila, Rhea) and trying to explain it all but it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I grew up in what I guess you could call a progressive household where we were taught to live and let live and be kind to others with no one religion (or lack thereof) being better than another. So a completely different perspective than some. But even so as you wrote as one gets older and starts thinking logically and rationally for themselves one can make up their own minds about what is right and ethical and fair.

My parents were good with gay marriage from the very beginning and we were all wondering when the heck it would be legal. I see what you are saying Rhea but again it really does come down to saying one way is "better" than another with certain people more "worthy" than others re having rights like who they can marry. No one should have the right to force their views upon other people. Doing it under the guise of religion doesn't make it any more OK.

Packrat, I completely agree with your post. Love it.

It's hard for someone brought up to believe X, and everyone around you tells you X is right and Y is wrong and God is only happy if X and if Y then you spend eternity in hell, to then turn around and say "hey, you know what, X can be right, but so can Y."

I was brought up to believe X and that Y was wrong. It wasn't until I got older and had different life experiences, meeting different people and expanded my horizons..as much as I guess a girl can in Iowa haha, that I started to wrinkle my nose and second guess things, question things. I

Part of the difference maybe is that at the same time I was taught X was right and Y was wrong, the same people taught me that no matter what, it wasn't up to me to judge someone for Y, and that ultimately it was about the person himself or herself, what was in their heart and what kind of a person he/she was. X or Y does not "make" a person who they are, it does not and should not define them as good or bad.

So. It's hard to go against how you were raised. My second guessing didn't come about out of the blue, I didn't just wake up one day and have an epiphany. I met people who changed my way of thinking. And they didn't do it by freaking out or calling me names for how I believed, calling me ignorant or stupid or arrogant or holier than thou or whatever else, they did it w/their actions. Just like I try to show by my actions that not all tattooed people are freaks or to be mistrusted. (tho I do think I'm kinda a bad a$$ ) Not all gun owners are out to kill people. Not all LEO's are asshats. Not all those who rock out to heavy metal are Satanists. That's how you change minds.

It's hard to do and lord knows I've not had the things to deal w/that others have-I could hide my tattoos or change the radio station for example. A lot of people believe that sexual orientation really does define a person as good or bad and makes a person who they are.

I wish we could get to a place where we aren't defined by the color of our skin or sexual orientation or gender or where we come from or our religion or how we vote or what we choose to listen to or adorn ourselves with or anything else. It's a part of us, a part of what makes us, us, but shouldn't be the sole definition of us. But..the majority of what I see around me, leads me to believe that I am a dreamer, like Ozzy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCCiwPEdEpg and I imagine, like Lennon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwUGSYDKUxU

And that makes me sad.

 

[packrat]

Packrat, thank you for your very honest and heartfelt post.

Something tells me it's people like you who know the way forward.

Thanks Kenny. It's the only direction I know to go.

Thanks everyone that liked my post.

Rhea, my parents aren't freaking out really, they just don't "get" it, I guess. They are very much "marriage is a man and a woman" period, end of story. Like it hurts the word marriage if it's not a man and woman or something. I don't understand that position. Neither of them go to church, they're not religious. But, they've not had the friends and experiences that I have I guess. I try to think of how they would've reacted if they had been the parents to one of my classmates who came out after high school...it wouldn't have been the relationship he has w/his parents that's for sure. When London was little he came back to visit and brought his boyfriend and they both stayed at his parents house together---for rural nowhere land Iowa, that's a huge deal and shows such acceptance. he's their son, end of story, you know? There's been some eye rolling on my part..."do you remember X that was in my class? he's coming back this weekend and we're going to go have some drinks at his parents" "oh yeah, I remember him! Isn't he gay?" ugh. so? He's also funny and caring and he's been my friend since Kindergarten. Maybe if they spent some time w/him, they would start to expand their minds a little..I feel like my parents are more sheltered than I.

 

[kenny]

Yeah, I think knowing gay people makes all the difference. (gay TV characters too)
But there's a chicken and egg thing.
Gay people are not accepted, in part, because people don't know we are everywhere.
Gays stay invisible because they are not accepted.

Last week's marriage ruling is a pretty powerful demonstration of acceptance so I expect more gay adults will come out.
Kids will also feel more safe to come out.
I'd guess bullying of gay kids will decline in the long run, yet in that more-intolerant belt of states it may temporarily spike in reaction to the ruling.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,


1. Yesterday the American Episcopalian church voted to support gay marriage.

2 Today the largest Jewish rabbinical organization wrote a piece stating that there is no biblical reason to oppose gay marriage. In fact the newly elected Pres. of the organization is a lesbian.

3. Yes Kenny you are right that I changed my thinking when a good friend came out to me in the 1970s. But it was still slow. It wasn't until the aids epidemic that I changed. I couldn't believe what people were saying. That woke me up! No-one, no-one deserves that.

Pack-rat--good post

Annette

 

[aljdewey]

I agree with civil rights for all.

I also agree with religious freedom and the right of those who have objections based on conscience to resign their jobs rather than refuse to offer a legally required service. So I salute the lady for resigning. If an employer required me to do anything that violated my conscience, I would hope I would resign rather than do whatever it was they were requiring.

I believe in freedom of churches to operate without state interference, and they should continue to have the right to marry whoever meets their qualifications for marriage (and there can be many besides this issue).

I also believe in respecting the beliefs of others even when I disagree. I have seen hate on both sides of this, and frankly, I am disappointed in both sides (extremes). Hate for those who believe differently than you is bigotry no matter which side you are on.
(definition of bigot: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.)

Late - but I could not more firmly agree! Incredibly well said.

 

[laylah]

I was so happy to hear that my friends in the U.S. are now legally married! When we got married in 2012 we went on a honeymoon with Olivia Tours to Mexico. Olivia Tours is a lesbian tour group. It was so exhilarating to hold my wife's hand without worrying about people staring …..or worse.

I'm a Canadian and we got married in the church where the first gay marriage had been performed. The minister arrived by police escort and wore a bullet-proof vest.

Still, we are discreet here in Toronto. Legal doesn't always mean accepted, but I am hopeful the tide is turning.

Our Premier is an openly gay woman in the same age group as I am. My children grew up with hers. When she came out the neighbours went wild with gossip. Just look at them talk now.

The world is changing faster than I could every hope. Praise be.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

 

[VapidLapid]

Thank you Madame B. Sometimes saying too much seems to trivialize the whole point.

Regardless of heterosexual, or homosexual, or the many other sexualities that contemporary society is uncomfortable with acknowledging, people are created equal. All of our chosen familial organisms ARE equal in validity, worthiness, value and in the security afforded such unions by the government. I find it hard to believe that anyone could think there is anything to discuss.

 

[Paz]

I just found out that my 10 yr old niece, does not know what a lesbian is. Her parents are not religious AT ALL, and she goes to a public school in FL. In this day and age, how is this even possible?

 

[laylah]

I don't know why the education system hasn't mentioned same sex relationships there but just as importantly, why haven't her parents?

 

[JaneSmith]

I'm so very happy for the millions of people in the US! Congratulations!

I can understand how straight people with little to no contact with LGBTQA people have no idea as to how damaging it is to be treated as second class citizens. I think that living in a world that privileges cis-het relationships as the norm makes it easy to see anything else as 'other' and 'less than'.
That same privilege and lack of awareness is, I think, what causes some of the consternation when LGBTQA people and their allies don't simply celebrate their 'win' and then politely shut up and go home.

Greta Christina is a writer, a married bisexual woman, and active in the LGBTQA community. This is an excerpt from her immediate reaction to the SCOTUS ruling:

I’m tickled pink about this, for all the obvious reasons. I’m actually finding myself uncharacteristically tongue-tied: this is so obvious, it has been so obvious for so long, I’m finding it hard to put into words exactly why this is important and wonderful. Marriage equality is, you know, equality. Millions of couples around the United States are no longer second-class: our marriages are seen as fully valid, with the same rights and responsibilities as any other. To put it in personal terms: Every year, Ingrid and I go to Skepticon in Missouri. This year, it’ll be the first time we won’t have the constant worry in the back of our minds, “What happens if one of us gets sick or hurt? What happens if some ******* at the hospital decides not to let us make medical decisions for each other, or even let us visit each other — because they think gay sex makes baby Jesus cry?”
Now, multiply that by millions. Millions of couples around the country can now visit each other in the hospital, make medical decisions for each other, adopt kids together, file state income taxes together, travel from state to state without their marriages disappearing and re-appearing and disappearing again.

I’m also, just personally for myself, enjoying an opportunity to have been proven wrong. When the recent cases on marriage equality were first brought to the Supreme Court, I was one of the people saying it was a bad idea. Many of us thought that the current court would deny the freedom to marry — and that this would set a precedent it would take decades to overturn. I’m deeply happy to have been proven wrong.

And finally: I’m delighted that we can now move on.

There’s been considerable debate within the LGBTQ community about the priority that’s been placed on same-sex marriage. Many in our community argued that other issues — employment rights, housing rights, homelessness among LGBT teens, school bullying, the epidemic of violence against trans people and especially against trans women of color — were more important for more of us. It was argued that other issues have a greater impact on queers who are poor, working class, disabled, immigrants, trans people, people of color, and others in our community with multiple marginalizations — and that the emphasis we placed on marriage was another example of more privileged LGBT people being put front and center.

Myself, I had mixed feelings about this. I certainly saw that point, and even agreed with it. At the same time, I also thought that we don’t always get to choose our battles: some issues catch the public heart and the public imagination, and same-sex marriage has clearly done that. And I thought winning same-sex marriage would make our other fights go easier. The legal precedent helps, of course: but maybe more importantly, the fight for same-sex marriage has changed people’s minds about us, in a way that few of other our fights have done. I think that when straight people saw us fighting for love, and fighting for the right to make commitments and take on responsibilities based on that love, it humanized us — and I think that will help us win our other fights. But yes, I definitely saw the point people were making, and even agreed with it. I think there are other issues for LGBTQ people that are more important than marriage.

I’m delighted that we can now move on.

We won marriage. Let’s take this weekend to celebrate. It’s Pride Weekend in San Francisco and in many other cities: let’s take this weekend to celebrate, to recognize the hard work we put into this and to to enjoy our victory. And on Monday morning, let’s roll up our sleeves, and get to work — on employment rights, on housing rights, on homelessness among LGBT teens, on school bullying, on the epidemic of violence against trans people and especially against trans women of color, on the hundreds of other ways that LGBT people are still treated as second-class citizens.

We won marriage. Let’s take that momentum, take those changed hearts and minds, and put it to work.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2015/06/26/same-sex-marriage-a-constitutional-right/#comments