need help with a paypal dispute!

[Christina...]

I know that many of you have used paypal for a long time and know lots and lots about how it works. I unfortunately am finding the process confusing and frustrating.

My DS asked for a modded xbox controller for his birthday. Shortly after I saw a groupon deal for a controller through a company that I'll not name right now. I purchased the groupon using a Master Card, and then placed the order with the company offering the controller on November 15th using my palpay CC because I upgrades several features. When placing the order I became of aware that the company claimed that it would take approximately 6 weeks to build the controller, I needed the controller by Decemeber 7th so I elected to pay for both expedited processing and expedited shipping, by doing so I should have received the controller within 10-12 days (they did not say 'business days' though I took that into consideration) which should have given me enough time to gift it to my son for his birthday on the 7th of December. When I hadn't received any shipping info from the company the first week of December I decided to contact them and promptly received a response saying that the controller would ship the following week. This would cause the controller to arrive after his birthday and be beyond the expedited processing and shipping times that I paid a large, IMO ($60) amount for. I contacted the company and told them that I no longer wanted the controller, that it was a gift, that I had paid to expedited the order to ensure that I would receive it on time for the birthday and that since it would not arrive on time I no longer wanted it and to please cancel the order. I didn't receive a response.

I know that paypal requires that disputes be placed within 45 days. I was becoming concerned that there would be problems with the order and asked paypal to facilitate. After opening the dispute I did some additional research on the company. I know, I know, I should have done this before I purchased the Groupon but....shame on me. Honestly though, I'm not sure I would have found much at that time. However, when I checked the BBB in December I found complaint after complaint about this company missing shipping deadlines or not sending the merchandise at all, in many cases when the item did ship it arrived broken or with used or missing parts, for some reason the majority of complaints began in October so maybe the company changed hands or something? With the new information I decided to escalate the case with paypal. I again told the company that they missed the shipping deadline that I had paid additional funds for and that when I communicated that I wanted to cancel the order they neglected to respond. I escalated the case on December 12th. The company did not respond until December 17th when I received an email from them saying that my item had shipped. I immediately responded, again stating that I had asked for the order to be canceled, that I had placed a dispute with paypal that they had failed to respond to and that I would like a RMA # because I would be returning the product upon receiving it. Per their website I am able to return for a full refund within 4 days of receipt.

The following day I received an email from the company apologizing and requesting that I return the merchandise to the supplied address. I also received an email from paypal a day later telling me that the company had supplied shipping info and because of that they had closed the case. I received my product on 12/19 and mailed it back to them priority mail on the 20th. Because of the holiday they didn't receive it until the 27th. I notified them on the 20th to expect it and supplied tracking info. I haven't received a response. On the 27th I emailed them to notify them that I knew that they had received it and asked when I could expect my refund. I have gotten no response. I emailed them again today asking again for an update on my refund....

I'm wondering if there is any other recourse through paypal? I opened a dispute and they closed it when the item shipped. However based on the companies own return policy I had the right to a refund, however it's now passed the 45 day dispute deadline. Are there any protections since I actually disputed before the cutoff even though I received the merchandise and returned with permission but have not received my refund? I just don't want to be out both my money AND the product. I paid $35 for the groupon and then an additional $165 to the company for the add ons and additional shipping and processing fees, not to mention that I had to purchase another custom controller from another company to be sure I had it for DS's bday party. Ironically that company had the item shipped to me in 5 days! I'm hoping that some of you may have ideas for me.

I know this is long and confusing so if you need clarity please ask and I'll do my best.

 

[Christina...]

Oh, I guess that I should also mention that I realize that it takes time to process a refund and I didn't expect to have received it within a week. My concern is the lack of communication and the additional information that I found on the BBB website where person after person has been screwed by this company in the past few months. My other concern is that if I don't act quickly through paypal and the company fails to refund me that I will have no recourse at all.

 

[April20]

Call PayPal. They have very good customer service over the phone. Explain the situation and what you've done to date and see what they say.

I'm sorry you're having issues!

 

[perry]

Please let us know how this progresses.

Originally paypal was quite customer orientated. Once Amazon purchased them they became supplier orientated.

I almost never use paypal - and if I do it is linked to a non-paypal credit card where I can dispute the charge which paypal then must accept the determination of my credit card company. There are very real reasons paypal wants to be linked to your bank account - it has everything to do with not having to comply with the Federal CC requirements on customer complaints. They can now use whatever standards they feel are appropriate.

I wish you the best.

Perry

 

[TC1987]

Read through the PayPal buyer protection and seller protection policies. I know that for ebay transactions, PayPal used to allow the seller only 7 days to ship the item.

I don't know why they closed the case. I'd definitely cal them and see what can be done.

I do know that back in 2007 or 2008 before PayPal had so many loopholes in its user agreement, I bought an ebay item from a seller who never shipped the item. She was in the process of moving from CA to PA, and I know her from a discussion board so I knew that she was selling things and moving furniture and pets and a horse or two, and it was all a big effort, so I just gave her the benefit of the doubt. And I waited. Before I know it, 45 days was up, I still had no item, she never produced any proof of shipping, and then she said she lost all receipts in the move, and finally she told me to go check my local post office and see if the box was sitting there undelivered. At that point, I realized that I'd been scammed. My credit card allowed me to dispute a charge anytime up to 90 days. So dispute the change and have the cc do a reversal was what I finally ended up doing. But, PayPal didn't have power to tap my bank account nor to charge my credit card back then, either. I don't know what would happen now.

 

[Christina...]

Thanks for the replies and advice everyone. I guess I was looking for assurances that I wasn't being unreasonable. One the one hand, it appears that paypal backs the buyer in cases of misrepresentation, fraud, and failure to receive the item. So, I suppose that my particular circumstance is a bit unusual in that I did ultimate receive the item, it just arrived much later than it should have, and the fact that my repeated request to cancel the order were ignored.

I plan on contacting paypal again to further explain my situation. I'm hoping that they will side with me on the grounds that I paid for expedited shipping and handling and did not receive it. The problem now though, may be that I did receive the item but returned it for a refund only to have the company cease communicating with me after they agreed to allow the return. THAT I think is where paypal may tell me that I'm on my own.

Regardless of how it works out I have learned an important lesson....the paypal credit card does not offer the same protections as MC Visa, Discover, etc. If I end up taking a hit for this transaction then I will be closing the account immediately and using only debit card or MC and Visa. I incorrectly assumed that using a paypal card to make a purchase from a paypal vendor would offer me MORE protection, not less, and well, that just really sucks!!

TC: I totally understand what you mean. I actually considered that the company I ordered through intentionally set longer than usual processing and ship times for their products so that by the time the customer received their merchandise they were no longer entitled to protection under paypal or possibly their credit card company. 45 days seems to be a reasonable amount of time to dispute a transaction until you consider that this particular company claimed that it would take six weeks to produce and ship the product unless you paid out the a$$ to expidite, or as in your case, you try to reasonable and patient to the extent that YOU get screwed. Sorry that happened to you.

 

[momhappy]

Please let us know how this progresses.

Originally paypal was quite customer orientated. Once Amazon purchased them they became supplier orientated.

I almost never use paypal - and if I do it is linked to a non-paypal credit card where I can dispute the charge which paypal then must accept the determination of my credit card company. There are very real reasons paypal wants to be linked to your bank account - it has everything to do with not having to comply with the Federal CC requirements on customer complaints. They can now use whatever standards they feel are appropriate.

I wish you the best.

Perry

I agree with this - PayPal is not very accommodating these days (at least to its customers). Best of luck OP.

 

[kefira]

Please let us know how this progresses.

Originally paypal was quite customer orientated. Once Amazon purchased them they became supplier orientated.

Point of clarification: PayPal is eBay owned, not Amazon owned.

Also, sorry, I have no advice on the problem. I find that PayPal isn't good at CS, but best of luck to you, Christina.

 

[Andelain]

File a chargeback with your credit card. I've done that after the 45 days is up, and gotten my money back. I'm about to have to do it again.

 

[perry]

My mistake: Yes it was ebay who purchased paypal, not Amazon. Not sure how I goffed that up

However, I recently set up to directly accept credit cards for my wife and my side business (her full time job); and I went with Square and not Paypal due a variety of issues that paypal has had; even though Square cost me a bit more per swipe.

Have a great day,

Perry

 

[Christina...]

I want to thank everyone for the advice and encouraging me to research out to paypal again. I received an email from them this morning stating that they have reopened my case as an appeal on the grounds that the merchandise I received was misrepresented. It never occurred to me that I might claim misrepresentation based on the length of time it took to ship the merchandise, however that must be the case since paypal themselves reopened the case under such definition. They stated in the email that it could take 30 days and in some cases longer to settle the dispute and that they will contact me if further information in necessary. I feel confident now that the matter will be settled, either by paypal or by the company that I placed the order with. Said company only shipped the product after I opened a dispute case, so I'm hoping that they will quickly refund payment now that the case had been appealed and paypal is facilitating once again. Fingers crossed! Thanks again for all the advice and support!

 

[arkieb1]

Hi,

The reason why this has happened is your seller is probably a "dropshipper" meaning they didn't have the stock, instead they ship it to you from China or someone else which is why it takes so darn long to get it.

Second point they sent it to you and had proof of that so that is why Paypal close the case the first time. Perhaps another idea could have been keeping it and reselling it as brand new on Ebay or somewhere like it so you are not out of pocket, but anyway now that it is sent back and you are in contact with Paypal again, explain in detail it was not "as described" and that you have sent it back and you have confirmation they have gotten it back again.

Paypal should refund you the money, but if they don't you can still contact your credit card company and go "around" Paypal so to speak because your credit card gives you insurance for transactions as well. You will need to tell them the goods were not "as described" and were returned brand new in full giving them the details of that and they will do something called a Credit Card Reversal.

 

[Christina...]

Hi,

The reason why this has happened is your seller is probably a "dropshipper" meaning they didn't have the stock, instead they ship it to you from China or someone else which is why it takes so darn long to get it.

Second point they sent it to you and had proof of that so that is why Paypal close the case the first time. Perhaps another idea could have been keeping it and reselling it as brand new on Ebay or somewhere like it so you are not out of pocket, but anyway now that it is sent back and you are in contact with Paypal again, explain in detail it was not "as described" and that you have sent it back and you have confirmation they have gotten it back again.

Paypal should refund you the money, but if they don't you can still contact your credit card company and go "around" Paypal so to speak because your credit card gives you insurance for transactions as well. You will need to tell them the goods were not "as described" and were returned brand new in full giving them the details of that and they will do something called a Credit Card Reversal.

Thanks arkieb1! I'm not sure if the company is a drop shipper or not. They custom design controllers for video games so it's very possible. The information on their 'Delivery Information' page states this...

Shipping - All controllers are made to order and typically take 2-3 days (3 - 6 days during holiday season) to be assembled before they are shipped. We ship all orders via USPS or UPS, international orders ship via USPS. Please note, during the holiday season assembly time may increase.

However, the "Terms and Conditions' page stated this....

Shipping - All controllers are made to order and typically take 10-14 days (14 - 20 days during holiday season) to be assembled before they are shipped. We ship all orders via USPS or FEDEX, international orders ship via USPS. Please note, during the holiday season assembly time may increase.

Rush Shipping - If you already select optional rush processing service we guarantee that your controller ships within 7 days (Monday-Thursday).

I paid for the rush shipping and didn't receive the product anywhere near 7 days later. I initially purchased a Groupon deal for the controller with my MC, but when I placed the order with the actual company I added several optional add ons and also purchased the rush processing and rush shipping resulting in additional fees that I then paid for using my paypal CC.

I understand why paypal closed the dispute, as you said the company was able to show that they shipped the controller several days after I opened my dispute. My frustration is that long before they shipped the product I had attempted on two occasions to cancel the order because they failed to deliver as promised and paid for making the item useless to me. When I last contacted paypal and asked them if I had any recourse or if they would be willing to facilitate communication between myself and the seller they informed me that I had the right to appeal the decision and to change the reason for the dispute. They felt that at this time I had a 'misrepresentation of item' case and started that process for me. I actually hadn't considered that an option so I'm happy that paypal was able to help me.

You are right, I could have kept the item and tried selling it on ebay or some other avenue, but when the company authorized me to return the item for a refund I didn't expect them to cease all communication with me. They now have my money and the item and refuse to respond to my emails, and all phone calls go to an answering machine that doesn't allow messages to be left. Anyway, the company finally responded when paypal got involved before so I'm hoping that they will respond now that they are involved again, then I can put this all behind me with new lessons learned.

 

[arkieb1]

Well that sucks, they obviously don't stand by their own policies for shipping items to you so I think it WAS misrepresented to you, you paid more to get it quickly and it didn't happen. Anyway I hope Paypal reverses the transaction for you and if they won't then contact your bank.

Sometimes you do have to be careful if the sellers are unscrupulous, which many can be - it is sometimes better to keep the goods rather than being out of pocket for both and just resell them again, I think it depends on what it is and how resalable it is.

 

[Christina...]

I have an update! I just received an email from paypal stating that they have decided in my favor and requesting tracking information proving that I returned the item to the seller. Once they are able to confirm that the item was shipped they will issue a refund to my account. I'm impressed that paypal decided the case so quickly as their initial email stated that it could take 30 days or longer yet the decision came in just over 24 hours! Thanks to everyone who encourage me to contact them again for assistance!