Low Income Women to Lose Birth Control

[the_mother_thing]

For those that think the government making abortion illegal is a good idea, I ask you this; how is that different than the Chinese government restricting births? Here's a communist regime writing rules that invade the womb, and directly affect a woman's reproductive freedom. How is regulating abortion any less an example of government overreach?

If we let the government makes decisions about a woman's womb, where will that invasion stop?

What if the government decides that handicapped children should not be born? They use resources, they need assistance and funds for mainstreamed public schooling, don't they cost a lot? If the government has womb power, who's to say this slippery slope won't appear?

Where would the womb invasion stop? What if, in the future, testing shows embryos that are predisposed to cancer, Parkinson's, mental illness, schizophrenia, even criminality? Wouldn't it behoove the government to terminate those pregnancies? Save all that long-term money? The technology to detect these genes exists today, and it would be easy to use it on embryos.

But why stop the womb invasion there? Gene technology could detect parents that are likely to pass on genes for MS, cancer, developmental delays, and any other thing the government would like to test for. Perhaps the government should forbid these parents from reproducing. Imagine all the money saved!

Be careful, more regulation is a slippery slope. Who knows what door you're opening that will be walked through 20 years from now, 50 years from now, 100 years . . .

I did not say "make abortion illegal"; I don't feel it should be taxpayer funded, IMO. If you choose to 'not abstain', individuals should be personally responsible (financially) for their actions and consequences ... and that includes paying the birthing bill.

The same argument about government's decisions re: a woman's womb being invasive is the very product of asking the government to intervene and cover women's reproductive rights in the first place. We opened this door years ago, and there is no end to it until we close it entirely, and get government out of our wombs entirely, and take responsibility for them ourselves. Another example of 'be careful what you ask Uncle Sam for' ...

We allowed them put "just the tip in"; and this is the consequence. The only way to truly retain full 'choice' over our bodies is to take the government out of reproduction entirely, which means we - as women - need to be responsible.

 

[Tekate]

Here we part company, I don't want my money spent on war, jets, etc. But I have no choice, it is the way it is. We need a military but I"d much prefer to we not spend half as much as we do.

So I am in favor of free B/C but not war.. and I have no choice, I have always surmised it was part of my living in the great USofA, I have to pay for things I don't like because the majority feels it to be so.. So it is with helping the poor, so people don't want to help the poor and want them to take personal responsibility - which I take to mean no sex - which I think will never happen just as much as I think the country will always be jolly happy to go fight some country and spend billions on it ... the biggest elephant in the budget is social security anyway..

I do not begrudge anyone who is poor from help, whether it's birth control or early education for their child, I am lucky I never had to walk in their shoes and feel what they must feel about poverty.. I hope I never have to.. But I was low income as a kid and did take advantage of the federal work/study program in college and took college loans - which I paid back as I was able to find decent jobs and the go up the ladder at IBM in the 80s and 90s.. I was also very lucky to marry a guy who did well so I could buy a diamond and not a beach house yet! but maybe a beach condo someday.. Until I walk in the shoes of the poor I really cannot judge them.

Peace.

The idea that not spending money on birth control for women is going to make even a tiny dent in the federal budget is not correct.

BC itself ... no, it won't. But BC in addition to every other warm-fuzzy, "make you feel good", 'pet' pork project to study frogs, and foreign aid payout that IS in the federal budget comprise a large amount of waste, IMO.

Military spending, however, benefits us ALL because it enables the continuity of our nation & freedom by enabling us to remain secure. If you don't like the jet, by all means, design something better.

I do not begrudge anyone who is successful from reaping the rewards of their efforts ... be it a beach house or a 10 ct diamond. I am not the person who went out on a limb, took the risk, and used my personal funds to launch the company, and endures the stress and angst of dealing with the challenges as a business owner/CEO. Until I walk in their shoes, it's not my place to judge.

I agree with the education part. But I think you should know that the conservatives have made it so that the majority of sex education these days is abstinence only. That's right, my bright, intelligent AP Scholar DD had no idea how women became pregnant when she finished the "sex ed" course at her high school.

Again, I point to personal responsibility. I don't want the school telling my kid it's okay to be promiscuous. They should teach anatomy, how babies are made (FACTS), and it can/should stop there. How about a class on dealing with consequences of decisions - be it sex, bad budgeting, living beyond one's means, etc. I'm not sure where your child was schooled, but those sex-ed basics were taught to my daughter in 5th grade and again in middle school. Beyond that, it's MY job as the parent to instill morals and self-respect in my child; not some liberal teacher who thinks the government (e.g., other taxpayers) should fund my child's 'mistakes'.

 

[AnnaH]

Lots of recent and interesting posts, but I'm responding to older ones and will try to be brief.
Some want me to use fetus instead of baby. That fits your context, not mine. When is the last time you heard a woman say, "Just learned my fetus is a girl!"?
Greece almost missed a bailout because most didn't want to cut spending. It doesn't take an economic expert to know that spending more than you bring in can't last.
Smith, you contributed a story about an alien cyst. Here's a story. A pregnant woman is the victim of vehicular homicide. The offender can also be charged with killing the unborn baby. What if the woman was on the way for an abortion? Are there still two homicides? I don't know what the law says about that. By the way, Smith, I wouldn't call that woman a slutty slut. Not into the shaming thing.
Gypsy, calling someone a liar is a personal attack. Wildly speculating that I don't really respect the poor and think they are all lazy is a personal attack. I answered your question; you just don't believe me. I guess because I disagree with you, I must be a liar.
There's an old saying, "Your rights stop at my nose." The abortion disagreement is simple. I think the pre born baby has rights. Most here disagree. I personally know pro choice people who are great people. Hopefully, those who disagree with me (and don't know me) can say that about a pro life person they know.

 

[AnnaH]

Welcome to the discussion, Jo. Discourse is better when it isn't so one-sided.
I agree with most of what you say but do think spending could be cut in the areas of military and criminal justice. It took me a while to come to that conclusion.
Our military involvement overseas is unsustainable. Not opposed to all conflict, but the Iraq war and nation building, for example, didn't pay off.
As for the criminal justice system, too many poor, nonviolent offenders are behind bars. Yes, overall crime is down, but I don't think that will last and haven't seen studies that show locking up so many people is why crime is down. I think it was a mistake to privatize prisons. That's a huge lobby working for heads in the beds.
Yes, get government out of our lives as much as possible. I'm for a graduated flat tax. Everyone needs to pay something to have skin in the game. The poor would pay perhaps 1 to 2% and the truly wealthy perhaps 12 to 15%. I would leave that to those better with numbers than I. We all want our favorite deductions. I would like to keep my deduction for charitable contributions and could probably make a good case for it. But everyone has to be willing to give up their own priority to get our nation back on track.
Just my humble 2.

 

[Calliecake]

Bristol Palin was paid over $250,000 for her part in the Abstinence Program. If being paid over $250,000 was not enough to make her practice what she preaches why on earth would you feel the average person would practice abstinence. Once people begin having sex they are not going to stop regardless of their age. Providing birth control options is the very best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Preventing unwanted pregnancies will save taxpayers money in long run.

 

[Calliecake]

Anna, I don't think anyone here has said that you are not a great person. We just view things differently. I will be the first to admit that I have very strong feelings on the abortion issue. I feel abortion should be an option in the early stages of pregnancy. I don't feel if someone's birth control has failed or if they make a mistake the government has a right to tell them they cannot have an abortion.

One party has also stated repeatedly that abortion should not be allowed in the cases of rape and incest. This hits me the core as I am a rape survivor and could have very easily gotten pregnant when I was viciously attacked. It was hard enough to deal with the aftermath of rape but to make a woman deal with a pregnancy on top of that is unthinkable in my mind. Had that been the law and I had been forced to carry that monster's child I would have killed myself. I'm not being overly dramatic. It is simply a fact. I would welcome any politician to walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me he has a say in what I decide is best for me. It's will always come down to being a woman's choice for me.

 

[AnnaH]

Callie, what happened to you is a terrible thing, and I am sorry when anyone goes through such trauma. As I've stated, I know pro choice people who are great people. I don't disrespect those who have had abortions, poor people or those who disagree with me. In this discussion, I have been unfairly accused of some very bad things.

 

[katharath]

Bristol Palin was paid over $250,000 for her part in the Abstinence Program. If being paid over $250,000 was not enough to make her practice what she preaches why on earth would you feel the average person would practice abstinence. Once people begin having sex they are not going to stop regardless of their age. Providing birth control options is the very best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Preventing unwanted pregnancies will save taxpayers money in long run.

Bristol Palin was paid over $250,000 for her part in the Abstinence Program. If being paid over $250,000 was not enough to make her practice what she preaches why on earth would you feel the average person would practice abstinence. Once people begin having sex they are not going to stop regardless of their age. Providing birth control options is the very best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Preventing unwanted pregnancies will save taxpayers money in long run.

Exactly. We can choose to live in denial, or we can deal with reality. I guess we could all just sit around and wish for everyone to never have sex until they want a baby. Or we could deal with the actual situation, which is that people have sex. Rich or poor, married or not, people have sex. Abstinence education does not work. Teen pregnancies are the highest in states with abstinence only education.

What does this mean? It means that we need practical solutions. The fact is that our country does not want to take financial care of multitudes of babies that are born into poverty, but if forced to, we will do it - because we don't want babies starving and suffering in America. Many women don't want to bring children into the world when they cannot afford them. There are two ways to prevent this from happening - birth control and abortion. We can choose to try to prevent these births, or we can choose to support the children once born. It is MUCH cheaper in the long run to prevent unwanted births. It's not really an option to choose to tell people not to have sex. We know that this does not work. Individuals are certainly welcome to make this choice, but we know from experience that's it's simply not what most people are going to choose -therefore causing the issue we are discussing. So if we accept this as a fact, then what choices are we left with?

It seems to offend people that this is the situation, but this is what it means to live in America. It means we get to have choices. If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one. It does not mean that you get to tell other people what they should do with their bodies or lives. Honestly, why do others care? I understand not wanting to use tax money to subsidize programs that you don't care for, but again, in this country we use tax money to help provide for the greater good and to help the people who live here. The help that they need may not be the help that you want them to have - but it's not up to one person to decide what is right for another. We get to make those choices for ourselves here, and that is what is right.

I'll admit that I found it shocking that so many births are paid for by Medicaid. I had no idea! When I stopped to reflect, I remembered that of all the women I personally know who have had children, fully half of them had their children when they had no insurance. I hadn't really thought of that, because honestly, I never would've considered having a child before DH and I were fully insured, owned a home, and had reliable jobs, cars, etc. Thinking back though, two of my best friends from high school (who are very religious and believe in big families) both started having children within less than a year of marriage (married at ages 19 and 20). Neither had insurance; both had multiple children paid for by the gov't (five or six between them). And of course the gov't also paid for all medical appts, etc, for the first few years of their kids' lives (if not longer). My cousin had three children, all costs covered by gov't. Another friend and her boyfriend planned a pregnancy when they also had no insurance. This is something I don't understand AT ALL. I personally have way more of a problem with that then subsidized BC programs or women getting abortions. I wish we could come up with a practical solution for preventing women from PLANNING multiple pregnancies when they have no insurance to pay for it; that's ludicrous to me. I guess it's one of those choices I will just have to accept...

 

[Tekate]

As for your fetus vs baby, you can say baby and I can say fetus (and in Europe they say foetus!) but it is a medical term, I believe it's from the 3rd or 4th month on.. an embryo is the stage between conception and 8 weeks?? gosh I should look this stuff up.. sorry, when I was told (after amniocentesis) that my fetus was XY! (of course I had to think what is XY??? a BOY it's medical and the medical profession may refer to my baby as the fetus!

Hmm Greece! they wouldn't RAISE taxes and cut spending AND they had tax evasion, AND a retirement age of 57 (yee haw!).. not just cutting spending.. their culture - what I read - is it's common to evade taxes.. if a country isn't willing to raise and at least collect the taxes that are due and a huge recession is occurring, that country is in a heap of trouble. If the woman had free birth control maybe she wouldn't have accidentally become pregnant! which goes back to the original topic. FREE B/C!!!

As to the fetal death - I would consider it a homicide because that woman may change her mind right before the abortion, she did NOT consent to herself or her unborn fetus to be killed in a vehicular homicide.. CONSENT is the big differences.. one can and one does change ones minds so kind of a strawman arguement BUT a good one!!!

Much peace to you, and we are all allowed our opinions, and one is as valid as the other...

tekate!

Lots of recent and interesting posts, but I'm responding to older ones and will try to be brief.
Some want me to use fetus instead of baby. That fits your context, not mine. When is the last time you heard a woman say, "Just learned my fetus is a girl!"?
Greece almost missed a bailout because most didn't want to cut spending. It doesn't take an economic expert to know that spending more than you bring in can't last.
Smith, you contributed a story about an alien cyst. Here's a story. A pregnant woman is the victim of vehicular homicide. The offender can also be charged with killing the unborn baby. What if the woman was on the way for an abortion? Are there still two homicides? I don't know what the law says about that. By the way, Smith, I wouldn't call that woman a slutty slut. Not into the shaming thing.
Gypsy, calling someone a liar is a personal attack. Wildly speculating that I don't really respect the poor and think they are all lazy is a personal attack. I answered your question; you just don't believe me. I guess because I disagree with you, I must be a liar.
There's an old saying, "Your rights stop at my nose." The abortion disagreement is simple. I think the pre born baby has rights. Most here disagree. I personally know pro choice people who are great people. Hopefully, those who disagree with me (and don't know me) can say that about a pro life person they know.

 

[katharath]

Anna, I don't think anyone here has said that you are not a great person. We just view things differently. I will be the first to admit that I have very strong feelings on the abortion issue. I feel abortion should be an option in the early stages of pregnancy. I don't feel if someone's birth control has failed or if they make a mistake the government has a right to tell them they cannot have an abortion.

One party has also stated repeatedly that abortion should not be allowed in the cases of rape and incest. This hits me the core as I am a rape survivor and could have very easily gotten pregnant when I was viciously attacked. It was hard enough to deal with the aftermath of rape but to make a woman deal with a pregnancy on top of that is unthinkable in my mind. Had that been the law and I had been forced to carry that monster's child I would have killed myself. I'm not being overly dramatic. It is simply a fact. I would welcome any politician to walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me he has a say in what I decide is best for me. It's will always come down to being a woman's choice for me.

Thank you for your post. You are absolutely right IMO. No one should get to make decisions like that for anyone else. I can't say from personal experience, but I also believe that if I had been forced to give birth to a rapist's child, I might well have killed myself rather than do it. The very thought is horrifying, and I don't believe you are being over dramatic in any way.

I appreciate you sharing such a personal thing with us, thank you for adding your experience.

 

[iLander]

Anna, I don't think anyone here has said that you are not a great person. We just view things differently. I will be the first to admit that I have very strong feelings on the abortion issue. I feel abortion should be an option in the early stages of pregnancy. I don't feel if someone's birth control has failed or if they make a mistake the government has a right to tell them they cannot have an abortion.

One party has also stated repeatedly that abortion should not be allowed in the cases of rape and incest. This hits me the core as I am a rape survivor and could have very easily gotten pregnant when I was viciously attacked. It was hard enough to deal with the aftermath of rape but to make a woman deal with a pregnancy on top of that is unthinkable in my mind. Had that been the law and I had been forced to carry that monster's child I would have killed myself. I'm not being overly dramatic. It is simply a fact. I would welcome any politician to walk a mile in my shoes and then tell me he has a say in what I decide is best for me. It's will always come down to being a woman's choice for me.

Callie, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I admire your courage - not just today - but every day.

 

[AnnaH]

T, thanks for your kind words. I agree that we all have a right to our own opinions. No need to get nasty.

 

[Calliecake]

ILander, Thank you so much for your kind words. Callie

 

[Gypsy]

Anna, I'm not going to re-enforce your desire to be a victim of the 'mean' Gypsy, by continuing this conversation with you.

This forum has very strict moderation that prohibits personal attacks. Please report my post if you really believe you have been personally attacked.

ETA: Nevermind, I was tired of the complaint and decided to report myself and leave it up to the moderators.

 

[Gypsy]

This is for anyone who thinks that birthcontrol is where we should draw the line at the ridiculous spending of public funds.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/use-of-taxpayer-money-for-pro-sports-arenas-draws-fresh-scrutiny-1425856677 and http://consumerist.com/2015/07/13/john-olivers-rousing-speech-rallies-american-sports-fans-to-stop-wasting-public-money-on-stadiums/

Yup. Birthcontrol. That's where we should draw the line.

Not on the other ridiculous spending that doesn't impact women in poverty.

Oh but wait. Sports teams and banks can afford lobbyists.

Guess who can't. Women in poverty.

 

[missy]

This is for anyone who thinks that birthcontrol is where we should draw the line at the ridiculous spending of public funds.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/use-of-taxpayer-money-for-pro-sports-arenas-draws-fresh-scrutiny-1425856677 and http://consumerist.com/2015/07/13/john-olivers-rousing-speech-rallies-american-sports-fans-to-stop-wasting-public-money-on-stadiums/

Yup. Birthcontrol. That's where we should draw the line.

Not on the other ridiculous spending that doesn't impact women in poverty.

Oh but wait. Sports teams and banks can afford lobbyists.

Guess who can't. Women in poverty.

Yeah, it is ridiculous that this is still something women are fighting for. Something as basic and fundamental as the right to do with our own bodies what we want to do. Makes me so

NO ONE should make decisions like that for women about what they choose to do except for the woman herself. Not only is the thought terrifying but it is barbaric and uncivilized in every way. Callie sweetheart, you already know how I feel about you but just wanted to add my support for you here and agree with you 1000%.

As for birth control c'mon. I cannot believe people are against this still. It is the best way to prevent unwanted pregnancies period and not where to draw the line at spending of public funds. Yes there are way better places to draw that line and providing birth control to women who cannot afford it is NOT that place to draw the proverbial line.

 

[Tekate]

Gypsey, t's a crazy world.. a friend of mine of Facebook just put up another anti poor people post saying 'when did freeloaders become more important than taxypayers' ugh. So I said to him, if you mean banks and the uber rich I'm with you, they are the freeloaders.. this concept in our country that the poor are lazy bums goes against major studies, most poor do work.. more women and children are poor. It's a national malaise in my opinion to 'blame the poor' after the hugest meldown since 1929... a helping hand works much better than negativity..

So I again go back to the original topic of: free birth control - it will save ME as a taxpayer money, not free abortion, not free cars, houses etc.. birth control for low income teens and women.

Peace.

 

[AnnaH]

Gypsy, I think because I am prolife and dared to state it here, you feel justified in calling me a bigot and a liar.
To refuse to be bullied is to refuse to be a victim.
Goodbye and good luck to you.

As you all know, our country is very divided on so many issues. Sometimes it seems hopeless, but we have to continue civil discourse. I am very politically active, not just in the area of abortion, but in other areas, such as criminal justice. Certainly, the poor are the ones who would benefit the most from reforming that system. Said that to say this. I respect the OP's efforts to support her cause.

 

[House Cat]

When we speak of the poor and responsibility I get kind of riled. Is anyone familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? Here, I'll post:


Ok, now as you can see, IF we are talking about the TRULY poor, these people are focused on survival, the bottom of the triangle. Basically, their brains are hijacked by poverty. They are worried about making ends meet, how to keep a roof over their heads, where their meals are coming from, stress is at extremely high levels. They most likely don't live in a safe neighborhood and live in fear. They have VERY few pleasures in life, maybe sex and alcohol or drugs. When people are hijacked in this way, they aren't really focused on the future. They certainly aren't focused on any other area of this triangle.

If you haven't lived this way, you can't judge the people who are living this way. You certainly can't call them irresponsible. They are using every resource they have to survive. Our law makers have thrown solution after solution at them when it comes to unplanned pregnancy, but these solutions are just band-aids because the real solution lies in bringing these people out of living in crisis so that they may be able to make better decisions for themselves.

I don't think anyone would really WANT to put themselves through an unplanned pregnancy or an abortion. What is the alternative? Forcing someone to raise an unwanted child is a tragedy for everyone involved. It is a romantic notion to think that ALL mothers will fall in love with a child that they are being forced to bear. In many cases, that child will be neglected, abused, and resented. This could lead to an addicted, mentally ill. and possibly criminal adult that will cost our society far more money than *just* the cost of the birth.

It seems to me that sometimes the argument against abortion and birth control is a bit short sighted. It stops at the fetus/baby. What about the human being that will emerge from this event? How will society support this human in a meaningful way when the mother is so poor that she can't put food on the table? How will society make sure that this human's emotional needs are met? "Pro-life" needs to be all encompassing and should address the entire life of a human being, not just its infancy.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I, too, had subsidized birth control when i was in college more than 40 yrs ago. We were all thrilled that we only paid $3.00 per month, as the reg. cost was 10.00. Once a year we had to visit the womens health facility to re-up the prescription. I traveled 45 minutes to get there.

I just spoke to my pharmacy to find the cost for a medicaid patients birth control pills. Depending on brand its either $2.00 or $4.00.
Gee, I thought, thats a LOT. We must march to get it FREE.,

I believe low income women are smart enough to find a way to get their birth control pills paid for, either by govt, boyfriends, parents
without taking food off the table. They get subsidies for many other things, and use those savings to pay for things they find necessary for life. The only ones that may not be smart are teenagers. Thats a problem.

There are not only Fed subsidizies, but county, and township benefits as well. The Gov't doesn't have to do better.

Kathrath-- If you only knew what help people get nowadays you wouldn't believe it. They even get a nurse to come to their home to check on the baby once a week for 6-8 weeks aftercare.

Don't demean women, as was done to blacks in this country. They are strong, and may need some assistance. Please, don't take away incentives to better yourself. Don't confuse empathy for low income people with those that always want more, more , more.
You'll still be good person if someone has to pay $4 or 30 for their prescription.

Annette

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I want to make 2 more points for the record.

According to the projected stats if the funding source doesn't get passed we will have 366,000 new abortions from these low income women per year. It is not my intention to challenge these figures, but to to show that women can and do figure out how to get money for what they want.

I don't know the cost of an abortion today, perhaps someone reading this could tell me, but women do pay for this themselves. They manage to not starve their children. Why do you think they can afford an abortion, but not birth-control?

2.The $30.00 per month figure that has been bandied about in this thread was associated with the retail cost of pills when Hobby Lobby was discussed. No birth control by medicaid cost that 30.00.

I am in favor of renewing Title X funds, but want a clearer understanding of what it all means.

Texas--- has been a thorn in womens side for a while. Yes, the problem is growing to other states.



Annette

 

[iLander]

Hi,

I want to make 2 more points for the record.

According to the projected stats if the funding source doesn't get passed we will have 366,000 new abortions from these low income women per year. It is not my intention to challenge these figures, but to to show that women can and do figure out how to get money for what they want.

I don't know the cost of an abortion today, perhaps someone reading this could tell me, but women do pay for this themselves. They manage to not starve their children. Why do you think they can afford an abortion, but not birth-control?

2.The $30.00 per month figure that has been bandied about in this thread was associated with the retail cost of pills when Hobby Lobby was discussed. No birth control by medicaid cost that 30.00.

I am in favor of renewing Title X funds, but want a clearer understanding of what it all means.

Texas--- has been a thorn in womens side for a while. Yes, the problem is growing to other states.



Annette

See, that's the part that they will lose. The birth control by Medicaid (just a few dollars) will become free market price.

I'm not sure anyone said they could afford abortions . . . ? That's the part that makes the birth control so urgent. To prevent abortions.

 

[Tekate]

I think the average price for an abortion is 500.00$.. I'd still rather fund pills vs an abortion (which we don't anyway) I would much rather see a woman on B/C or IUDs than having an abortion.

Where do they get the money for the abortion, maybe they borrow, or their B/F helps them, or husband or partner.. abortions have been going down for years in the usa.

Hi,

I want to make 2 more points for the record.

According to the projected stats if the funding source doesn't get passed we will have 366,000 new abortions from these low income women per year. It is not my intention to challenge these figures, but to to show that women can and do figure out how to get money for what they want.

I don't know the cost of an abortion today, perhaps someone reading this could tell me, but women do pay for this themselves. They manage to not starve their children. Why do you think they can afford an abortion, but not birth-control?

2.The $30.00 per month figure that has been bandied about in this thread was associated with the retail cost of pills when Hobby Lobby was discussed. No birth control by medicaid cost that 30.00.

I am in favor of renewing Title X funds, but want a clearer understanding of what it all means.

Texas--- has been a thorn in womens side for a while. Yes, the problem is growing to other states.



Annette