Kim Davis gets out of jail

[ennui]

This topic is an interesting read ... some of you sound like attorneys.

Imho ... that Kim only converted four years ago has a lot to do with this. The recently saved do tend to go overboard in the beginning. I feel the same about the recently converted Muslim flight attendant.

I don't think Kim deserved to be in jail. That's just silly. She should be on administrative leave, like any other government employee.

I'm just guessing, but I think resigning would impact her pension benefits. I don't know her status in that regard. So, I understand why she doesn't want to simply quit. They may give her a lateral transfer for something innocuous.

As for SCOTUS ... they have revealed their lack of impartiality in recent rulings. They are political, just like the other branches.

 

[stracci2000]

 

[kenny]

Oh, and good to see you, Kenny! I sincerely appreciate the way you approached this topic in your opening posts.

 

[Matata]

Join the movement to stop the nonsense.

https://www.aclu.org/feature/using-religion-discriminate

 

[Niel]

.

 

[Snowdrop13]

Tee hee, good one! I liked this.......

 

[AGBF]

Tee hee, good one! I liked this.......

Actually, a dowry in Europe and the US was money or goods paid by the bride's family to the groom's when he married her and 'took her off their hands". (From reading Alexander McCall Smith I understand that in parts of Africa a man pays a woman's family a "bride price".) But why let facts get in the way?

AGBF

 

[VRBeauty]

Tee hee, good one! I liked this.......

Actually, a dowry in Europe and the US was money or goods paid by the bride's family to the groom's when he married her and 'took her off their hands". (From reading Alexander McCall Smith I understand that in parts of Africa a man pays a woman's family a "bride price".) But why let facts get in the way?

AGBF

And the tradition of dowries is probably the basis for the long-held U.S. tradition of the bride's family paying for the wedding...

More to the point, I think this illustrates why political cartoons and clever memes may not be the best way to have a serious conversation.

I also am impressed with how this thread has, for the most part, been a thoughtful and respectful conversation. Thank you Kenny for helping to set it up as such.

Now that the new work week is here an Ms. Davis is most likely headed back to work... after time off to reflect on her actions and options and the reactions thereto... it will be interesting to see what she does while she waits for yet another appeal to be turned down. Clearly she's not going to sign marriage licenses herself. Best case, I guess, is that she won't prevent her deputies from issuing marriage licenses. But I do agree that she should resign, and most definitely that she should not seek re-election when her term ends.

 

[Calliecake]

Kim Davis is supposed to be returning to work today. She is still refusing to authorize gay marriages. Her deputy clerks are handling this task. The woman needs to resign. I'm sure there are many people in Kentucky who would gladly take over her $84,000 a year job. I can't wait for this woman's 15 minutes of fame to be over.

 

[kenny]

Tee hee, good one! I liked this.......

"Three goats and a cow."

Hahaha.

My, how times change.

 

[Matata]

Actually, a dowry in Europe and the US was money or goods paid by the bride's family to the groom's when he married her and 'took her off their hands". (From reading Alexander McCall Smith I understand that in parts of Africa a man pays a woman's family a "bride price".) But why let facts get in the way?

AGBF

Maasai and Kikuyu dowries are paid in livestock. The billboard is factual although unclear as to cultural reference.

 

[AGBF]

Matata-

I very strongly support same sex marriage and women's rights, two of the causes lauded by the ACLU website on the page to which you provided a link. I am having a problem in this thread seeing a real, sisterly concern for women from some of the women who support gay marriage, though. It is as if as soon as one woman takes what is (in my eyes) an atavistic position about gay rights, that it is all right to to subject her to misogynistic taunts (such as that she needs a makeover).

I think Kim Davis' position is backward and wrong, but that does not make me ready to use her being a woman as a stick with which I can beat her, implying that she is not what a woman should be: pretty, desirable, chaste, virtuous. If I sit back and let her be attacked for being a woman, I am not living up to the ideals espoused by that ACLU website you supposedly support.

The ACLU is fighting hard for women's rights. I don't want to give any up.So I am left defending Kim Davis, although I will never defend her position on gay marriage, because she is a woman in the public eye being abused for her appearance and her lack or chastity. (Move over, Hester Prynne. Where's her scarlet letter?) I think the other women on this forum should be joining me in defending her. And I am glad JaneSmith led the way and that DiamondSeeker spoke up.

AGBF

 

[Matata]

Matata-

I think Kim Davis' position is backward and wrong, but that does not make me ready to use her being a woman as a stick with which I can beat her, implying that she is not what a woman should be: pretty, desirable, chaste, virtuous. If I sit back and let her be attacked for being a woman, I am not living up to the ideals espoused by that ACLU website you supposedly support.

The ACLU is fighting hard for women's rights. I don't want to give any up.So I am left defending Kim Davis, although I will never defend her position on gay marriage, because she is a woman in the public eye being abused for her appearance and her lack or chastity. (Move over, Hester Prynne. Where's her scarlet letter?) I think the other women on this forum should be joining me in defending her. And I am glad JaneSmith led the way and that DiamondSeeker spoke up.

AGBF

I don't think the billboard is related to her physical appearance. I think the point it's trying to make is that our societal definition of what constitutes marriage has evolved somewhat from biblical history rendering Davis' position on same-sex marriage futile. I agree with your position that her physical appearance should not be part of the equation. I don't understand why women resort to using one's looks as a weapon against those they don't respect or like. I find it an interesting behavior and I'm sure there are research-based papers and books written about it and I'm looking forwarding to reading about the topic. As for the use of her sexuality against her, it's just another variation of Freud's Madonna-whore Complex, known more commonly as the virgin-whore syndrome. It locks women into an impossible situation whereby we are free to embrace our sexuality as long as we don't engage it because engaging our sexuality renders us whorish.

 

[stracci2000]

How much do you wanna bet that when her book comes out, the photo of her on the dust jacket will show her with a new hairstyle and professionally done makeup?

 

[AGBF]

I don't think the billboard is related to her physical appearance. I think the point it's trying to make is that our societal definition of what constitutes marriage has evolved somewhat from biblical history rendering Davis' position on same-sex marriage futile.

I agree with almost everything you say in your postings, Matata. I find you very erudite and thoughtful. I have one minor disagreement with you about the billboard. It isn't worth a big discussion, but since we really don't have a lot better to do than to discuss some of these matters on Hangout (I would rather discuss this than my fragrance of the day today), I may as well continue.

Women used to have to pay to get married. One had to have "a portion" or else very good looks in order to find a husband in many places. I just feel that the cartoon undermines the reality of what it was like to be a poor woman without a dowry in the US or England to propagate the notion that women were of value and were "sold". The tribes you mention were in Africa. Alexander McCall Smith, as you may know, also writes about Africa (where he was born). In Botswana a bride is usually paid for; she has value. Usually she is paid for is cattle. But, unfortunately, in the part of the world where we live, women never held that much value! I feel that it is important to make that point.

Deb/AGBF

 

[kenny]

I think the point of the billboard is, there has never been a single universally-correct definition of marriage.
Hence, 'redefining' it to include gays and lesbians is no biggie, so Kim Davis' objection is out of line.
The many definitions of marriage have reflected the time and place of many cultures.


Yes, of course women being seen as worth less than men (hence requiring payment to relieve her father of the liability) is revolting ... but that is not the point of the billboard.

 

[iLander]

I read it as "During Biblical times marriage involved chattel, cattle, whatever. Because These are no longer Biblical times, marriage has changed."

It's just a billboard, no reason to overthink it.

If I had made a billboard, I would have Kim Davis lifting up her KKK hood, with a cross burning in the background, with the headline "We're baaaaccckkkk . . . "

But that's me.

 

[VRBeauty]

I agree with Kenny and ilander's interpretation of the billboard - it's a commentary on the fact that our traditions regarding marriage have changed - and since Kim Davis is not enforcing the old tradition of bride price, why is she holding fast to the man-and-woman tradition?

BTW I assumed when I first saw the billboard picture that the "one cow and three goats" must have referred to something in the Bible. It does not, although there are several stories related to bride price in the Old Testament. I also stumbled upon an interesting discussion of bride price vs. dowry... here's the link in case anyone is interested. http://www.jasonstaples.com/sociology/dowry-and-bride-price-are-not-the-same-thing/

FWIW I don't feel a need to "defend" Kim Davis as a woman because 1) this issue has nothing to do with her gender, and 2) I don't pay much attention to comments aimed at her past looks, previous marriages, etc. I'm pretty familiar with the evangelical mindset and I think I know how these apparent contradictions would play out in that arena, and think attacks on her looks reflect mostly on the attacker.

 

[JaneSmith]

The attacks on Davis' sexual behavior and appearance are part of a broader culture of maintaining the second class status of women. Every time a woman is judged by her attractiveness (what defines attractiveness is a whole other topic) or her number of sexual partners instead of her words and actions, she is reduced from autonomous individual to a f*uckable or not piece of meat.
I will not participate in the continuation of casual misogyny.

 

[jordyonbass]

My question is this; I saw a quotation from her speech after being released from prison where she proclaims that she is not an American hero, but rather a regular US citizen (or something similar).

I don't know of anyone proclaiming her to be a national hero. Is it some small off-shoot faction of a tiny minority group? Or does she have the false belief that the US population think of her as a hero and is trying to act humble?

 

[VRBeauty]

My question is this; I saw a quotation from her speech after being released from prison where she proclaims that she is not an American hero, but rather a regular US citizen (or something similar).

I don't know of anyone proclaiming her to be a national hero. Is it some small off-shoot faction of a tiny minority group? Or does she have the false belief that the US population think of her as a hero and is trying to act humble?

A Fox news oped has called her an American Hero http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/09/03/opinion-kim-davis-american-hero as have others on the religious far right http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/K...e-Peterson-Civil-Rights/2015/09/15/id/691710/.

 

[jordyonbass]

My question is this; I saw a quotation from her speech after being released from prison where she proclaims that she is not an American hero, but rather a regular US citizen (or something similar).

I don't know of anyone proclaiming her to be a national hero. Is it some small off-shoot faction of a tiny minority group? Or does she have the false belief that the US population think of her as a hero and is trying to act humble?

A Fox news oped has called her an American Hero http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/09/03/opinion-kim-davis-american-hero as have others on the religious far right http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/K...e-Peterson-Civil-Rights/2015/09/15/id/691710/.

Wow...just, wow.

In today's day and age it is not OK to impose anyone's belief system on anyone else, this is common knowledge and widely accepted amongst theists and atheists alike (a basic tenet of the secularism that the USA was built on). I'm deeply disturbed that not only are people doing this, but they're also being hailed as heroes.

I'm not an American citizen, but that seems about as unamerican as it gets to me

 

[Calliecake]

My question is this; I saw a quotation from her speech after being released from prison where she proclaims that she is not an American hero, but rather a regular US citizen (or something similar).

I don't know of anyone proclaiming her to be a national hero. Is it some small off-shoot faction of a tiny minority group? Or does she have the false belief that the US population think of her as a hero and is trying to act humble?

I could not believe this either but it was very clear that she was very proud to have people say that about her. She walked out onto a stage while "Eye of Tiger" (Rocky theme song) is blaring, with arms up like she was a champion. I head an interviewed with the writer of the song and he was extremely upset. He did not want his song associated with Kim Davis. He also said no one had asked permission to use the song and if they had it would have been denied. Jordy you aren't the only one who is deeply disturbed! Two possible presidential candidates were right up there with her. The whole thing is an unbelievable circus.

Sorry Deb, I can't get behind this woman. I could care less how many times she has been married, how many children she had out of wedlock. That is her business and no one else's. She is breaking the law and she needs to stop or step down from her position.

 

[iLander]

Loved this. More memes here http://www.businessinsider.com/still-did-her-job-memes-mock-kim-davis-2015-9

 

[aljdewey]

Gotta agree with VR - I do not feel compelled to defend her merely to support the "sisterhood". That's not enough of a reason to get behind someone. Women can get it wrong, too, and she is flat out wrong.

Like VR, I also just ignore the comments about her appearance because those aren't even worth generating the energy to address and sometimes the best way to address ignorance is to ignore it.

The comments about her prior marriages, I felt, did have relevance only insofar as they reflect behavior that's also unsanctioned by her religion of choice, which is the grounds on which she's refusing to do her civil job.

It has been subsequently noted that she converted to this newfound religious adherence after her multiple divorces - that's fine, but still NO excuse in my mind to feel entitled to impose her religious beliefs on others.

I cannot and will not defend that behavior from anyone, male or female.

 

[kenny]

... and from the opera world.

 

[stracci2000]

I get it, everyone. I KNOW that her appearance has nothing to do with her job, and how she does or doesn't do it.
BUT---
I am pi$$ed at the lady for what she has done.
I am allowed to have an opinion.
Being compared to Donald Trump, and being called ignorant is offensive to me.
If any of you have never criticized someone's appearance, because you were annoyed by them, then you are a saint.
I apparently am not, because I said something mean about the lady.

 

[kenny]

I feel no guilt poking fun at the appearance of only one group.

Politicians.

 

[AGBF]

Sorry Deb, I can't get behind this woman.

I could care less how many times she has been married, how many children she had out of wedlock. That is her business and no one else's. She is breaking the law and she needs to stop or step down from her position.

I am not "behind this woman". I am behind women. I hate the position Kim Davis has taken on same sex marriage and think she should have been held in contempt of court as she was. I think that jail was a perfectly appropriate sentence for her being in contempt. I would not be sad if she were to be impeached, but I see that as an unrealistic possibility given her electorate.

HOWEVER, I remain committed to the notion that no one should criticize Kim Davis, no matter how wrong she is on the issue of separation of Church and State, for her appearance or the number of sexual partners she has had. This is an important principle and one which JaneSmith keeps making. (Thank you, Jane.) I also remain committed to the notion that all children are legitimate children, whether or not their parents are married when they are born.

AGBF

 

[kenny]

... I remain committed to the notion that no one should criticize Kim Davis, no matter how wrong she is on the issue of separation of Church and State, for her appearance or the number of sexual partners she has had. This is an important principle and one which JaneSmith keeps making. (Thank you, Jane.) I also remain committed to the notion that all children are legitimate children, whether or not their parents are married when they are born.

AGBF

+1