Just a Thought on Hurricane Katrina

[perry]

Richard Hughes:

That one''s a heartbreaker. Thanks for posting it. And here''s a couple for those who like to believe the Bush*&t coming out of Dubya''s mouth. If you will recall, he said he had to wait for a formal request before acting.
Sunday Aug. 28th Letter From LA Governor asking for Bush to Declare an Emergency


Richard: If you will check the FEMA site you will notice that a formal disaste declaration occured shortly after the hurricane hit along the lines of that letter I have not checked it line by line - but the county list (parish list) does seem to match the FEMA area declaration maps. FEMA does not, and never to my knowledge, has declared a disaster area before the disaster.

This letter just set things up so that FEMA could act soon after the hurricane hit. They did.

I believe that the comment Bush made on not being able to act involved the deployment of Military forces to New Orleans. If you will read the extensive postings above you will find that the request for other state National Guard and US Military forces did not come until late Wednesday Morning - and that no other State could deploy their National Guard nor could the US Military could act until the request was made by the State of Louisiana. There are some very fundament legal principals involved.

In fact, Bush''s statement on the issue of Military assistance is true.

Perry

 

[partgypsy]

Can we all agree that that the preparation/response to hurricane Katrina was a failure?
There are people who would be alive today if response to the disaster was different.
The reason why I am saying this, is that the spin is already starting, where the director of FEMA is saying everything went well, while I am hearing about bodies piled up in the superdome.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 11:30:20 PM
Author: part gypsy
Can we all agree that that the preparation/response to hurricane Katrina was a failure?

No, apparently not. As Movie Zombie said, R/A is still blaming the victims, whom he so delicately refers to as "dumbasses".

Link to Thread in Around the World

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 10:47:20 PM
Author: perry
Wisconsin's welfare program starts with 2 years coverage, and can be extended beyond that for certain issues. Yes, they want you looking for work; but.... In some cases they have job training and job placement programs (that truthfully have not been that effective).


Wisconsin also has a 'Job Training Program' for anyone layed off from a large employer who goes out of business. Interestingly, if you work for a small employer that goes out of business - you cannot get this benefit (So, 5 years ago I was not elegible because I worked for a small firm when it closed).


There is a person within a block of here that I know personally. Laid off from a major factory closing I'm thinking 3 years ago. Middle aged, zero computer skills - decides that he will take the 're-education benefit' which includes monthly living expense payments and tuition/books and enrolls in computer programming class. The man will never be hired as a computer programmer - it is obvious from the start.


The factory is purchased and reopened, and this person is offered his job back with the new firm at a wage that is actually higher than what the union concession was going to be. He turns it down - because afteral he is now being paid to be in school and there are lots of computer programming jobs out there.


Several years later he finishes all the classes he can take. But, he can't find a job in computer programming (and never will - he is slow - very slow). Thus ends the educational program.


Now another program kicks in to support him since he cannot find a job getting out of school (not sure which one). Suddenly, he starts to develop medical problems. Mainly the kind that no medical test can really find. Now he is eligible for medical benifits.


I talked to him within the last 2 weeks - and you should hear about his medical issues. They will be qualifiying him for medicall disability soon which will allow him to collect Wisconsin welfare for life...


During this time the factory has been booming - and he has actually had several 'informal' offers to come back to work.


There are other cases like him arround. He is just the one I know personally.


Just between you and me: My medicall issues are much more apparent to any Dr who checks me out (and probably to any of you if you would look and listen). He seems to have no problem doing all kinds of things.

I read this story (and by deeming it a "story" I do not mean to imply that it is fictitious). I can only say that as a social worker in 2004, this was not the world I saw. (I had stopped working to stay home with my daughter in 1992 and went back to work part-time in a family agency as a psychotherapist in 2004. I was not giving welfare as I had while working for a municipality from 1984 through 1992.)

In 2004 I had many clients who were ill and who were unable to obtain SSI (Social Security Insurance) or SSDI (Social Security Disability Insurance) although they had applied and appealed several times. The threshold for eligibility was high: one had to be "permanently and totally disabled". I had a black client in her late 50s who had worked all her life. She had been married and had raised three children who adored her. She had become diabetic; was having kidney trouble; and had sky high high blood pressure. She was in and out of hospitals all the time. In fact, it was a hospital who referred her to our agency because she was depressed. She had lost an apartment through no fault of her own and was bouncing between relatives, homeless except insofar as she could stay with others. She was warm and grateful for everything anyone did for her. Everyone to whom I introduced her adored her because of her personality. She was never granted SSI or SSDI, however.

What can I say except that I saw many people like her while you saw someone able to obtain incredibly long periods of "welfare"?

One more point: apparently this man down the block has not yet been approved for SSI or SSDI. You are just assuming that he will be. You also do not appear to know the nature of the medical problems he claims to be experiencing. Not all medical problems someone has are evident as he walks down the street. From what you have observed you concluded that he has no real medical problem but that the Social Security Administration will nonetheless approve benefits for him. From the same observations it seems equally possible that he may have a real medical problem and that he will be denied social security benefits!

Deborah

 

[thebanjodog]

deborah i can speak to you about ssi benefits. now mind you this is what the mother of a young man collecting them told me . i did not read the file. young man about 20 when this happened now about 32.

young, healthy man living with his mother and stepfather. no job, smokes cigarettes, drives a car(while license is suspended for dui), mother tells me she gives him money for cigarettes and gas. i will at this point interject she is my next door neighbor. good neighborhood and the woman''s husband has good employment. the neighbor tells me that they allow son to drive a few blocks to cousin''s house to pick him up to drive him around in his sportscar. she thinks this is all right. short story...young man gets drunk and is driving his car. runs into a young mother heading to her job as a nurse at a local hospital. young mother tells paramedics to help others first. drunk young man. she bleeds out and dies. he is severly injured and spends a long time in the hospital and later rehab. while he was still critical in the hospital the mother says she is advised to sign him up for ssi. at the same time she tells me how they have him on her husband''s company insurance. they have lied and said he is a student. at that point hospital bills were in excess of two hundred thousand dollars. after this all happened the young man became beligerent to his mother and she was unable to see him for a while. i don''t think there is much of a relationship now either. the young man moved to another nearby town and lives a meager life with a livein girl friend. young mother leaves husband with three children to care for. banjo

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/6/2005 4:46:32 AM
Author: thebanjodog
the young man moved to another nearby town and lives a meager life with a livein girl friend. young mother leaves husband with three children to care for. banjo

If I have somehow conveyed that because I feel it has become very difficult to obtain SSI and SSDI that I approve of drunken driving, let me clarify.

I do not approve of drunken driving, which was the cause of this horrible tragedy.

I do not know whether the driver''s having been covered by insurance would have affected his eligibility for SSI or SSDI, nor do I know why the family lied about it (presuming your facts are correct).

I cannot prevent fraud or drunken driving, but both are crimes which can be prosecuted.

I maintain that it is now very difficult to prove a disability to the SSA (Social Security Administration) and that many (if not most) people who apply for it are denied, at least the first time around.

Everyone can find an acquaintance who is a less than helpful citizen. In my line of work I see many deserving poor people unable to obtain help. I think that the lack of social programs to help the poor to get out of poverty-or at least to obtain food, shelter, and medical care-is inexcusable.

Deborah

 

[perry]

Part Gypsy:

Can we all agree that that the preparation/response to hurricane Katrina was a failure?
There are people who would be alive today if response to the disaster was different.
The reason why I am saying this, is that the spin is already starting, where the director of FEMA is saying everything went well, while I am hearing about bodies piled up in the superdome.


Here is how I see it.

The planning & preparation was attrocious - and this was largly the responsibility of the City and State. Federal Goverment dissaster plans are based on city and state plans. I can find no evidence at all that there was ever a disaster plan developed for the failure of the levees - even though a lot of people knew it was possible - and in fact predicted that it would happen.

The actual FEMA Resonse was "technically" good. Please keep in mind that FEMA has a limited charter. They asked the states to presubmit disaster declarations so that disaster areas could be immediatly declared. They prestaged about 5000 people and over 100 truckloads of emergency supplies around a general perimeter (a prestage on this level had never occured before, and this was only the second storm they prestaged for). They quicly declared the areas disaster areas and deployed a larger thann normal repsonse team. And they then did what they could in the face of a storm that caused a lot more damage than anticipated (I estimate that this storm caused about twice as much damage - without the levee failures - than what the response teams were ready for. Keep in mind that predicting how much damage is advance is far from perfect). The levee failures swamped everyone - at all levels - of the response organizations.

Where the "Department of Homeland Security" fits into this - and what they were susposed to do is a complete mystry to me. Thus I have no idea if they did well or not.

The timing of the Mobilization of the other state's National Guards and request of US Military assistance was extreemly poor. This is solely a State responsibility. No one could do anything untill the State of Louisiana requested this help (very fundamental legal principals and constitiutional rights involved here - see earlier in this tread). To me this represents a failure on the State to adequatly plan and or execute a plan. This cost at least 1 day, and perhaps several days on the evacuation of New Orleans (should the National Guard assistance have been per-authorized as apparently it has been before; however, I think that once New Orleans flooded their should have been an immediate request/authorization of National Guard and US Military assistance).

Once authorized, The response of the National Guard and US Military was phenominal.


Overall, dispite all the carping by many, the fact is that the overall response and spead of the everythings was very good. There is not another nation on this earth who could have responded faster than what we did - dispite the miscue on lack of planning and late mobilization of the National Guard and US Military. Look at the size of the affected area, look at the number of people involved. People in other nations who have similar large sized disasters and plan the responses are actaully looking at how fast things were actully done in awe. Look how well the people involved and displaced are being housed (compare that to what happens in most other countries...). There are no tent cities going up.

Of course, there are a lot of people who just want to complain, and have found something that they can really complain about. The truth of who was responsible for what really does not matter - it makes good press and good conversation. Check the facts behind any other large scale natural disater and the response times. Check the facts on who is actaully responsible for what. The US has done well.

But, it could have been done better.

Perry

 

[MINE!!]

I have not read all these threads on Katrina yet.. so this may be a new hornet''s nest.. or not.

This event could have produced a wonderful and productive talk in American Society and government on how to improve, reduce and elminate poverty. It would be a HARD lesson and HARD talk... by the exmple of the poor, more people would get involved in the race to end poverty. NOW would have been the IDEAL time for this country to finally face this problem.. but as soon as we could have had the chance... it turned into a race issue and I beleive our chance passed.. the ideal time for it anyway.. It''s unfortunate.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/5/2005 7:40:23 PM
Author: saturn
I think that it depends a great deal on where you live and what your occupation is. I was called in to work because I am in the public health field. Since the site was on an Air Force Base, they weren''t asking for volunteers from the general public.

They primarily needed doctors and nurses, mental health professionals and social workers.

I am going to post this in a separate thread to attract the attention of other social workers. I know that there are a number of them who belong to Pricescope.

I received an e-mail from NASW (the National Association of Social Workers) directing me to a new website set up for social workers who want to volunteer to help victims of Hurricane Katrina. I wish I could travel, but I cannot because I have a young child. If I can volunteer locally, I will do so, however. The good thing about this website is that it may allow some of us who cannot travel to help people in our own geographical areas if victims are evacuated here or if we can do other support work locally.

The website is at:

Social Workers and Hurricane Katrina

Deborah

 

[rubydick]

Date: 9/6/2005 8:43:01 AM
Author: perry
Part Gypsy:


Can we all agree that that the preparation/response to hurricane Katrina was a failure?

There are people who would be alive today if response to the disaster was different.

The reason why I am saying this, is that the spin is already starting, where the director of FEMA is saying everything went well, while I am hearing about bodies piled up in the superdome.



Overall, dispite all the carping by many, the fact is that the overall response and spead of the everythings was very good. There is not another nation on this earth who could have responded faster than what we did - dispite the miscue on lack of planning and late mobilization of the National Guard and US Military. Look at the size of the affected area, look at the number of people involved. People in other nations who have similar large sized disasters and plan the responses are actaully looking at how fast things were actully done in awe. Look how well the people involved and displaced are being housed (compare that to what happens in most other countries...). There are no tent cities going up.

Sorry, you'll have to try harder to justify Bush's crimes. The rest of the world is looking on in shock, not "awe." Which is why one overseas newspaper labeled Bush "President Apocalypse."

And here is a story that puts the lie to the idea that no other nation could have responded more quickly:

China Evacuates 1 million prior to Typhoon

Perry, you are engaging in some serious denial. What is it about Bush playing golf while New Orleans drowns, or Condi going shopping days later while foreign leaders consult to provide aid to this country that suggests a sense of urgency or leadership? And how bad does this man and those around him have to behave before you label them what they are -- at best, incompetent, at worst, criminals.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 9/5/2005 11:20:57 PM
Author: perry


Richard Hughes:


That one''s a heartbreaker. Thanks for posting it. And here''s a couple for those who like to believe the Bush*&t coming out of Dubya''s mouth. If you will recall, he said he had to wait for a formal request before acting.

Sunday Aug. 28th Letter From LA Governor asking for Bush to Declare an Emergency




Richard: If you will check the FEMA site you will notice that a formal disaste declaration occured shortly after the hurricane hit along the lines of that letter I have not checked it line by line - but the county list (parish list) does seem to match the FEMA area declaration maps. FEMA does not, and never to my knowledge, has declared a disaster area before the disaster.


This letter just set things up so that FEMA could act soon after the hurricane hit. They did.


I believe that the comment Bush made on not being able to act involved the deployment of Military forces to New Orleans. If you will read the extensive postings above you will find that the request for other state National Guard and US Military forces did not come until late Wednesday Morning - and that no other State could deploy their National Guard nor could the US Military could act until the request was made by the State of Louisiana. There are some very fundament legal principals involved.


In fact, Bush''s statement on the issue of Military assistance is true.


Perry

Funny, legal principles didn''t stop Bush from invading Iraq, did it?

 

[thebanjodog]

i am truly amazed that an act of nature and the problems that resulted have escalated into a blame fest. i got involved in this discussion by marveling that the blame needed to be placed on the shoulders of the few instead of the many.

i will once again say there is more than enough blame to go around. yes government and individuals did not plan or follow thru as they should have. having said that i think it is time to put up or shut up. that is what i hope we all do.

the strongest proponent of the masses can not arrange two weeks of her life to help out in the field she is trained for. i understand her situation. perhaps she should step back and cut the others a little slack also.

my hope is that we can all work for change and improvement in a positive and nonoffensive manner. if my comments have been inappropriate i offer my apology to anyone they have offended. i have always operated under the assumption that name calling will get me no place and i renew that belief. banjo

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/6/2005 10:33:57 AM
Author: thebanjodog
the strongest proponent of the masses can not arrange two weeks of her life to help out in the field she is trained for. i understand her situation. perhaps she should step back and cut the others a little slack also.

That was personal and nasty. I moved a year ago and am 300 miles away from my elderly parents. My daughter, who turned 13 in August, used to see her elderly grandparents (now 84 and 87) daily. Had I still been living in Connecticut, where I have a large and loving extended family, I would have been able to take two weeks "off" (as if working in a disaster area is a vacation) to help hurricane victims. As it is now, I have no family in the state where I live (Virginia) and I do not wish to abandon the child in my care just as she starts a new year in eighth grade.

I never posted about it until this attack, but this summer both my parents had surgery at the same time (in August). Before that they needed medical tests to determine whether they were able to have surgery and where it should be done (July). My father (84) had a total hip replacement in New York. While he was still hospitalized, my mother had emergency neurosurgery on her hand. I spent the summer going back and forth between Connecticut and Virginia with my daughter in tow. When I wasn't at a hospital or rehab bedside I was shopping, doing laundry, cooking for, taking out the garbage for, and driving to medical appointments my parents-one who couldn't walk and one who had one hand.

And you know what? Even if I had been eating bon bons in bed, I would still speak up for the poor. I refuse to "cut (anyone) slack" if he is in a position of power and his policies are harming people.


Deborah

 

[saturn]

Banjo-

Your comments directed at Deb was inappropriate, uncalled-for and rude. Those kind of snide comments not in the spirit of PS, and I would like to see you apologize to her.

 

[Neophyte Miner]

Date: 9/6/2005 10:33:57 AM
Author: thebanjodog
i will once again say there is more than enough blame to go around. yes government and individuals did not plan or follow thru as they should have. having said that i think it is time to put up or shut up. that is what i hope we all do.

Time to put up or shut up? You mean we should all just acknowledge that Bush ignored the crisis as long as possible, forget about it, and move on? What about losing your blind defense of Bush and engaging in an honest discussion of what happened, and trying to make it better for the next victims - which could very well include you or someone you care about?

the strongest proponent of the masses can not arrange two weeks of her life to help out in the field she is trained for. i understand her situation. perhaps she should step back and cut the others a little slack also.


my hope is that we can all work for change and improvement in a positive and nonoffensive manner. if my comments have been inappropriate i offer my apology to anyone they have offended. i have always operated under the assumption that name calling will get me no place and i renew that belief. banjo

Your last paragraph completely contradicts the one immediately preceding it. I realize this is the approved Rovian doublespeak technique, but I think you need to work on the subtlety angle, Banjo. Let''s get real. If Jeb had been the Guv of LA the response to Katrina would have been immediate. These people protect their own and ONLY their own - but I don''t think I need to tell you that, since you obviously have the routine down pat (though a few more lessons in propaganda-speak are probably in order.)

 

[pricescope]

Guys, personal attacks and flaming are not allowed here.