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Is this a common "teen" thing?

CJ2008

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Spent several days with sister and 14-year-old niece.

When we went out to lunch, and almost any time we were out and about and in the midst of other people, my niece would make comments about other people.

There were somewhat neutral "observations" such as whether some people looked like they had money, or looked fashionable, or whether some guy was cute...but many comments seemed to be negative/judgmental in nature (e.g., she said how someone shouldn't be wearing those shorts, or would give a "look" at overweight girls and people). Most times she would point them out to my sister or just say it outloud or just be looking in a certain direction with a "look."

I found it exhausting. And ugly. And in some ways believe it or not it made ME feel self-conscious - I'm certainly not the best looking thing out there, I don't have a perfect body, etc., and I have been overweight at times in my life. For reference, both my sister and niece are above-average looking and get a lot of male attention. We can't go anywhere without one of them getting a compliment, being stared at, someone trying to talk to them, etc.

I did say at one point in the night - when I stopped the car to let a heavy 20-something girl cross the street and my niece made a comment - that part of not letting your looks go to your head is to understand that not everybody can look like her.

Since I don't have experience with a lot of teens, I started to wonder whether this might be a common thing among teens...(not that it makes it OK in any way, but curious if this common).

I've also been contemplating about whether I should say more about it, either to my niece directly or to her mother.
 

kenny

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Give her 30 years.
She'll be fine.

To her, you were fine … back when you were 14.
 

LAJennifer

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I would definitely say something the next time she is in your presence, making comments like that. I'm sure you would be more tactful than I would be. I would say, "you may be pretty on the outside, but that kind of talk makes you ugly as sh*t on the inside. There is way more to life than being good looking. Looks fade. You have a lot to learn about life."

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I detest as*hole behavior.
 

movie zombie

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sounds like a thing a bully would do....are you sure she doesn't do this when she's out with friends as well?
 

rubyshoes

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LAJennifer|1385939715|3565775 said:
I would definitely say something the next time she is in your presence, making comments like that. I'm sure you would be more tactful than I would be. I would say, "you may be pretty on the outside, but that kind of talk makes you ugly as sh*t on the inside. There is way more to life than being good looking. Looks fade. You have a lot to learn about life."

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I detest as*hole behavior.

Yeah. This. My cousin behaves the same way and she's 23. Her mom (my aunt) has never reprimanded her but she knows not to say things like that around me because I *will* lecture her. Hate it.
 

Maria D

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As a high school teacher, I'm around teenagers all day. While this kind of behavior isn't uncommon with girls that age, I wouldn't say it's the norm at all, at least not in my school. I don't allow idle chit-chat in my classes but during homeroom kids are allowed, encouraged actually, to socialize and, yeah, sometimes left unchecked it could veer toward the ugly. I do think most kids get better with time. I have had the same homeroom kids since freshman year, now they are seniors. Some of the overly judgmental kids were MUCH worse at 14 than they are now at 17-18.

I never counter with "ugly on the inside" remarks. One, because I think that being overly self-conscious might be the cause and I wouldn't want to make it worse; two, I would never put myself in a position where a student might go home and say Ms Maria D called me "ugly on the inside"; and three, I'm not sure it would really work. Since they are judging based on appearance, they also feel judged based on appearance - so they aren't all that concerned, at this age, about appearing "beautiful on the inside".

I try to nip this behavior in the bud by pointing out how bored/uncomfortable those around them are (and believe me, most of the other kids are) and getting them to talk about something else that they can be positive about. I'll say, "Nikki, that's the 2nd time this morning you've been talking up someone's sorry pair of Uggs, really? No one cares! I find it hard to believe that someone as interesting as you puts so much thought into other people's footwear." Then I try to get them to talk about something they do like - what kind of music have you been listening to lately, etc. I find that suggesting that constant negativity is boring is more effective than suggesting it's rude. Sometimes the uber-cool kids pride themselves on being rude, but are aghast at being thought of as boring!

You'd be surprised how tentative they can be about sharing what they DO like, lest someone deem *that* uncool. (Hmmm, Kim K anyone?) It's treacherous times, those teen years. :lol:
 

Gypsy

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Her mother should have nipped it in the bud.

She sounds like a shallow and insecure child who gets her own ego boost by putting others down. A nasty teenage bully.

I frankly would have said something about it. I would have said that people who constantly put others down must be trying to hide their own inadequacies. And that's its better to work on your own faults than to police others.
 

movie zombie

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I've asked it before, Gypsy: are we related?! LOL!
 

CJ2008

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I'll respond more fully later, but wanted to address the comments that really stuck out to me

Maria D|1385941993|3565794 said:
I find that suggesting that constant negativity is boring is more effective than suggesting it's rude. Sometimes the uber-cool kids pride themselves on being rude, but are aghast at being thought of as boring!

Yes. I was saying to DH this morning is that I knew I couldn't use certain arguments because she IS at the "top of the chain" looks-wise and popularity-wise. But the boring thing is genius.

Gypsy - I am not sure why my sister hasn't. Although my sister is very aware of her extreme attractiveness to men and she'll kid around about it and how great looking she is what she MOST has is a very healthy self-esteem and acceptance of herself even with all her flaws. And she always tells me how hard I am on myself. So I am not sure why she's not somewhat horrified by this behavior. Which - like Movie Zombie said - can definitely escalate into bullying behavior.

ETA: I am scared to think that she's actually bullying others. Because aside from this, she's a very sweet girl. BUT - I do recall one incident maybe like 9 months ago or so when we had one of DH's nieces here visiting and I saw my niece giving her "looks." I remember telling my sister shortly after that visit that I thought that was disgusting. I was really angry about it because it seemed my niece WANTED me to see that she was looking this girl up and down. And I don't recall what my sister said but she didn't seem to give it much weight and she never mentioned it to me again. So as far as I know she never talked to her about it or anything...but based on this it's possible that she may be bullying others, if she can do that in front of us, what is she capable of when there are no adults around? :(sad
 

TooPatient

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Gypsy|1385942897|3565802 said:
Her mother should have nipped it in the bud.

She sounds like a shallow and insecure child who gets her own ego boost by putting others down. A nasty teenage bully.

I frankly would have said something about it. I would have said that people who constantly put others down must be trying to hide their own inadequacies. And that's its better to work on your own faults than to police others.

This.

"A" is 14 years old and does make some comments about how people dress BUT it is strictly done after she has gotten home and is only in generic terms. ("People shouldn't wear yoga shorts that are so short you have to buy special underwear!")
We've talked at length with her about being nice to others -- always polite to people and not being nasty behind their backs.

I know she does talk some with her friends about some people, but they seem to keep it to a very minimum amount.


So, NO this is not the "common" thing. It does happen but it is something a parent should be stopping.
 

packrat

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Maybe she needs an adult to over hear her comments and ask her if she'd like to be slapped. if I caught someone making snide comments about MY daughter there would be an issue.

Or maybe as her aunt, I'd tell her that if being beautiful and popular means that you also act like a dick to people who weren't as lucky genetically, I'd be glad to not be a part of her crowd. Cuz she coulda juuuuust as easily gotten the short end of the stick.

if she's big girl enough to act like that she's big girl enough to hear about it.

This comes from someone who has spent her entire life dealing w/girls like that.
 

CJ2008

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TP - I think general comments about showing too much skin are different because they're based on different reasons...not because someone is ugly or fat...

Packrat - that may happen to her eventually...that someone will catch her giving their daughter dirty looks and say something...or that she'll do it to the wrong girl and that girl will put her in her place. I would be willing to bet any amount of money that she would be very upset if that happened and burst into tears.

I am not sure where it's all coming from for her and where she has gone "misguided."

But I tend to agree with MariaD that because she knows she's exceptionally good looking any comments about how it's not cool to be part of her crowd if they're mean etc won't really drive the point home. She thinks she's part of an elite crowd who cares what the peasants think...(my guess).

But I do think that at the very least even if I don't have a heart to heart with her or her mother that the next time we're together I will say that it's really boring and draining to hear her spew out such negative energy...and that if that's what they want to do and what they find fun when they're together that's fine, but that I want no part of it. I feel like at the very least that should on some level reach my sister at least.
 

TooPatient

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CJ2008|1385954397|3565876 said:
TP - I think general comments about showing too much skin are different because they're based on different reasons...not because someone is ugly or fat...
Packrat - that may happen to her eventually...that someone will catch her giving their daughter dirty looks and say something...or that she'll do it to the wrong girl and that girl will put her in her place. I would be willing to bet any amount of money that she would be very upset if that happened and burst into tears.

I am not sure where it's all coming from for her and where she has gone "misguided."

But I tend to agree with MariaD that because she knows she's exceptionally good looking any comments about how it's not cool to be part of her crowd if they're mean etc won't really drive the point home. She thinks she's part of an elite crowd who cares what the peasants think...(my guess).

But I do think that at the very least even if I don't have a heart to heart with her or her mother that the next time we're together I will say that it's really boring and draining to hear her spew out such negative energy...and that if that's what they want to do and what they find fun when they're together that's fine, but that I want no part of it. I feel like at the very least that should on some level reach my sister at least.

Agreed!

"A" is skinny. Beautiful skin and hair. Basically everything women pay big money to end up with she has naturally.

She used to comment on how "fat people" shouldn't wear this or that (pointing out average weight people) and "old people" shouldn't do this or that. Some pretty ugly stuff.

Generic comments after the fact are normal and common. Specific things at the time with the person there are NOT okay.


I do have to say that it took a lot of ongoing work to break her of this. I doubt there is anything you can say in one comment that would make any sort of lasting difference.

Your sister though....
I'd talk to her and let her know that you don't need that sort of negative commentary and if they'd like to do that then do it when you aren't around. Hopefully she'd at least take the hint.
 

LaraOnline

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Yuck! I cannot imagine having to spend time with your niece.
Perhaps it is partly a cultural thing, as there is no way that type of behaviour would be accepted by me in the first instance.
I wouldn't be pi**ing in her pocket about how beautiful or intelligent she is.
I am yet to enjoy the company of teenagers of course! (oldest is nine) so perhaps I am yet to experience these joys.
She's not all that, she's just a horrible rude kid living on the kindness of others.
If it were my kid, I'd be getting her a part time job to earn her own money and set her attitude straight.
 

CharmyPoo

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I don't want to make any judgement but from what I have seen that this type of behavior in teenagers often stem from upbringing as well. Your sister sounds gorgeous and from what you described lived a life knowing that / taking in the advantages associated with good looks / joking about it ... leading her daughter to think it is fine to judge and behave this way. It is very sad but I know just the type of girl you are talking about - my sister is the exact same way (since she was a teenage all the way into her late 20s where she is now).
 

Gypsy

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movie zombie|1385943494|3565809 said:
I've asked it before, Gypsy: are we related?! LOL!


I've said the same. :wavey:

And we live so close to one another and yet we've never met.
 

Gypsy

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CJ. You don't know why your sister hasn't nipped it the bud? Well , she probably doesn't see it. She's too close.

So either tell your sister PLAINLY that your niece's behavior is ugly and unacceptable. Or tell your niece yourself That's part of your job as a sister and an aunt. Sorry, but that's just how I see it.

My mother has two sisters. If my mom failed to point something out to me that was vital to my being a well adjusted and respectful adult you CAN BET my aunts would have pulled me aside and told me plainly what was what.

I was 12 and well on my way to being a total brat. One of my aunts told me flat out using exactly those words: "You are on your way to being a brat, and no one will want to be around you, and you'll be alone." And she was right. It was a wake up call. And while I didn't appreciate it at a the time. I thank god she loved me enough to hold a mirror up to my face and show me what was going on.

If you love your sister and your niece and want what is best for them you won't sit quietly by lamenting her behavior with strangers: you'll get in there and do something about it.

Somebody needs to. And as the person who has identified the issue. that falls to you.
 

Gypsy

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Smith1942

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I don't think this is entirely normal behaviour. At that age, it simply would not occur to me to look around and comment on others in any way, shape or form. I was busy living my life, doing my homework and after-school activities. Today, I'm still not interested in what others are wearing/doing/saying on a superficial level.

However, my husband and all his family members pass comment on others a lot. I find it distasteful.

I really think it has to do with upbringing. I had a very good, plain, upbringing without a lot of money but with an emphasis on obedience to adults, manners, and doing the right thing. If I stepped out of line, I was roundly squashed.

My husband, on the other hand, was brought up in an institution thousands of miles away from his father (a boarding school on another continent) where there were no parents to correct a child, and I gather it was survival of the fittest. His family members all had the same type of cold upbringing with a lack of daily guidance from someone who was truly invested in them. To this day, my husband and his family appear to sort everyone around them into their boxes, where they stay despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Hence the comments.

But, I do wonder if this sort of commenting from others is a way of trying to make sense of the world. I wonder if your niece comments more about people in front of you to see what you'll say. Because your responses help to shape what SHE thinks, since she is so young. Just a theory.

It could be a nasty personality trait of hers, or it could be just curiosity and misunderstanding of the world about her, and she may grow out of it.

Next time she comments on a person being overweight, you could talk about the medical conditions and drugs that can lead to weight gain, or muse aloud that some people are very unhappy with good reason and for some, eating is a way of assuaging the memories from bad - sometimes terrible - experiences that continue to bother them. Ask her how she thinks it feels to be unhappy, depressed, and alone, without her looks and her family support. If she begins to look abashed, you'll know you're getting through. And if she continues to be a brat, remind her that she could lose her looks and figure one day through ill-health or accident, and ask her how she would feel if others made remarks about her. If it's REALLY difficult to get through, you could always remind her that she did nothing to earn her looks and therefore cannot really be proud of them.

You wonder why your sister doesn't seem bothered - well, it seems to me that there are some parents who are determined that their kids will turn out to be good people and correct them all the way, and then there are other parents who are completely blind to their offspring's faults. Seems like your sister is the latter!
 

JewelFreak

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She needs to realize there is a person inside each "ugly" body she sneers at. The body is only packaging -- including hers. Many wonderful, successful, admirable people are not attractive on the outside. They are more admirable for having excelled over outward appearance. Character shows in their eyes, expressions, especially in their deeds. Can she say the same? That is what I'd ask her.

Empathy. Even the most beautiful women hate something about themselves: their legs, their nose, whatever. Ask her to imagine her friends snickering at that attribute about her --- which she can't help having been born with. Let her realize she inflicts that on others.

Beauty does fade. Holy cow, I know from experience. (It is easily lost in other ways: car accidents, illness, etc., so can't be taken as permanent.) Who will she be when that happens? Someone who thinks, has curiosity, engages others on a level below the skin? If so, she has to start growing now; it takes a lifetime.

In each of your posts, CJ, you've mentioned how beautiful your niece is. As if that's a summit of some distinction. I wonder if there has always been an emphasis on beauty above other traits in your family. Your niece should be told it's pure luck & she is NOT a better person for it. Maybe not even a more fortunate one.

--- Laurie
 

ksinger

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No one can really know what another does when they are not in your presence, but in this case, she is acting as she is allowed to act, it's as simple as that. Her parents have not yet (and really, it should have been done in early childhood) made her understand that commenting on people's appearance is unacceptable. Apparently it IS considered OK. It certainly was not in my mother's home. You did not comment if someone was big, small, unkempt, gorgeous, purple, or green, nada. Not allowed. There was not a big discussion of why, but it didn't take much for even a kid to figure out that looks were considered superficial and unimportant when judging people, and that commenting was rude.
 

movie zombie

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I would also note that her behavior is dangerous: some day someone somewhere is going to hear her, take offense, and get in her face about it.........that might be verbal but it could also be physical. if/when this happens her family will have failed her because no one told her about the facts of life includes taking consequences for one's behavior.

when I was about 5 my mother and I were out and about.....and I said out loud that someone was "fat". my mother was on my case about being rude. being a parent means teaching your child how to be polite and how to be in public. her mother has failed her. allowing this girl to walk around in the world thinking her worth is due to her beauty is not good parenting. the world has an odd way of knocking those illusions out of our heads and not in so nice ways either.

be a good auntie and have the talk with both. at least you will know that you did the right thing.
 

House Cat

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I'm in full agreement that this girl needs to be told that her behavior is completely unacceptable.


I do not agree with participating in bullying behavior to do it. I would not threaten to slap the girl, cuss at the girl, or call her names. I am a grown adult and this girl is a child. I recognize that I possess more physical, mental, and emotional power than this little girl and I can use more creative and intelligent means than simple violence or name calling in order to make my point.

This is how I see it.

My son was bullied. I remember one time hearing the bully's mother threaten to slap her son. I'm not so certain slapping bullies works to STOP bullying. I believe it makes the bully more frustrated and makes the child continue the bullying behavior.

It is our job as adults to set an example for children. We don't slap toddlers to teach them not to hit. We shouldn't bully and insult a teen to teach her empathy.
 

movie zombie

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most adults think like you, House, but not all teenagers who are being critiqued by this [not so nice] niece are going to be "adult"........

and your observation that a bully may bully to compensate for being bullied by an adult is apt.

while this niece may be attractive, I'm betting she has some sense of inadequacy that is causing her to be so critical of others.........better to teach her to deal with herself than let her continue to act out inappropriately. that is where a tactful and tacit auntie could be of great assistance!
 

isaku5

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LAJennifer|1385939715|3565775 said:
I would definitely say something the next time she is in your presence, making comments like that. I'm sure you would be more tactful than I would be. I would say, "you may be pretty on the outside, but that kind of talk makes you ugly as sh*t on the inside. There is way more to life than being good looking. Looks fade. You have a lot to learn about life."

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I detest as*hole behavior.

Say it exactly like that. Anyway, what's so special about her??? Who is she to pass judgment??
 

asscherisme

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I have a 14 year old daughter so have spend lots of time around 14 year old girls because she has a lot of friends and I also do a lot of chaperoning for her HS sports events. I would say unfortunately YES it is very common. I would not put up with this from my own daughter, and she has never behaved this way. In fact, it drives her nuts when kids act this way. My daughter will actually call people out on their behavior, when she hears nasty comments about others. From what I have seen, and what I hear from my daughter, the more insecure the teenager is, the worse the comments and more snarky they are.

I also have a 17 year old son, and I can say that although this does happen with teenage boys ( and I have seen this chaperoning but not among my sons friends its much more common with girls.

I will say that it was MUCH worse when she was in Jr. High. Its bad in high school, but Jr. High is he epicenter of bad behavior.

And girls are sooooo much meaner than boys to each other and more snarky. With boys, they tend to know where they stand with each other but with girls, there is much more nice to your face, nasty behind your back.

The "frienemy" is very very common among girls.

Its really hard raising teenagers in this world of cell phones, facebook etc. Its a very very different world than I grew up in.
 

CJ2008

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Thank you all for your feedback. All of it is very helpful. And I'm enjoying the discussion.

It's a definite that I need to say and do more than what I have.

One of the things I wanted to answer specifically is whether my family places an importance on looks. I never thought about it too much but now that I'm thinking about it, there more that I'm "linking" pieces and I see somewhat of a theme.

1. Making comments. The first thing you'll hear when you walk in to a gathering is how nice or thin (or in my sister's case, how sexy) you look. This was fine with me as I was growing up since I didn't know any different and all I ever probably heard were positive things so I guess I thought not only this is what you do but how can it be bad if it's compliment? Until I realized that sometimes you were also going to hear that you gained weight, or how you (directed at me usually) have the "big hip" problem like my mother does. For the last like 20 years or so this whole commenting on my body - especially specific areas of my body - makes me cringe. The irony there is that even though I say that there have been times my sister gets the sexy comment and I get nothing and then I feel left out. Yuck.

Where is the line? I am now wondering if even a general comment like "you look beautiful" may make some people self-conscious.

2. I've mentioned several times that my niece is beautiful and that so is my sister because I feel it's relevant because these girls do not get a normal amount of attention. And I can see how that attention can lead to a sense of power and superiority. It's dangerous. For all the reasons we're all mentioning. But I feel I will be more effective if I acknowledge and understand that - maybe partly because I'm not in their league so maybe they'll think I'm saying that just because I just wouldn't understand. :???: Perhaps there's also a part of me that wonders whether I could not let it go to MY head if I were in their shoes. :/

3. I recall my niece liking a boy that by my sister's account was ugly and my sister and her then boyfriend telling my niece that she belonged with a good looking kid. I cringed. And I told my sister at the time that was not right, that that was teaching her to judge people by their looks. Perhaps I should have addressed this with my niece - but I don't see her that often and at that time I didn't feel that we were close enough for me to out of nowhere ask her about the situation. But perhaps I should have and this is now teaching me that all those things go out the window when there's potential for being a positive influence.

I know that I want to approach this with my niece in a calm manner. I'd like to find out why she feels the need to this. And ideally I'd love to really reach her and make her think and reflect beyond our conversation. I think this should be my first approach. Same with my sister. I feel that even though I've said some things here and there I haven't done enough to just come out in anger. Although if I was going to get angry at either one it would be my sister - the adult - first. With her, I did point out several things to her and used the word "disgusting" to describe my niece's behavior with my other niece. But even there, I'd like to try to understand what my sister is thinking first.

I've contemplated writing a letter to my niece since she's horrible on the phone (it's like pulling teeth) and I probably won't see her until after Christmas. My sister I can probably call on the phone. Would this work or do you think it would be best if both conversations took place face to face?
 

CJ2008

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I'm feeling like I didn't do enough to point out how incredibly helpful some of your specific points were...and I plan on using them in my talk with my niece...like:

beauty fades
beauty is fragile - can be taken away (accident, etc.)
There is way more to life than being good looking
there is a person inside each "ugly" body
Ask her to imagine her friends snickering at that attribute about her --- which she can't help having been born with.
you could talk about the medical conditions and drugs that can lead to weight gain, or muse aloud that some people are very unhappy with good reason and for some, eating is a way of assuaging the memories from bad - sometimes terrible - experiences that continue to bother them.
she did nothing to earn her looks and therefore cannot really be proud of them.

Thank you all so much.
 

Tuckins1

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Oh boy, my niece is also 14 and she is the same way. Every one is stupid, ugly, annoying, etc... I just roll my eyes and ignore her. If we are in public and she says it where someone can hear her, I will straighten her out quickly.
 
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