shape
carat
color
clarity

Is fixing other people's pics good or bad?

Is fixing other people's pics good or bad?

  • It's good, just do it.

    Votes: 12 40.0%
  • It's bad, don't do it.

    Votes: 11 36.7%
  • Other, please explain

    Votes: 7 23.3%

  • Total voters
    30
  • Poll closed .

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
Would 'improving' the occasional very-improvable pic posted by others be good or bad?
Technically it would be good, but I can understand that some would think it would be rude.
Does the upside outweigh the downside?
I did it in this thread because posters asked for more pics that were not so dark, and the OP thanked me. [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/paraiba-stunner-part-ii.198462/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/paraiba-stunner-part-ii.198462/[/URL]

Very often pics are too dark.
Even top of the line DSLRs do this.
When I take pics I have to brighten up 99% of those I've posted here.

This happens because cameras are programed to make every scene to look of average brightness.
That's groovy for scenes that are of average brightness but what about scenes that are all very bright or all very dark:
1. A white diamond on white paper.
2. A dark blue sapphire on a black cloth.

Even the best camera adjust the exposure so both of the above scenes will look the same average brightness.
That means the white paper will come out too dark, and the dark gem on dark cloth will come out too light.
This has nothing to do with how well the scene was lit or the skill of the photographer.
Fixing such pics with something like Photoshop after taking the pic is the only solution.

Here's an example:
Very often pics posted on PS have a yellow cast, or a blue cast.
White balance is easy to correct too.

But should I do it?

original_on_the_left.png
 

m-2-b

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
3,924
I don't mind at all, especially if I need your help with a certain picture! :))
 

ame

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
10,794
I say offer if they're super bad.
 

GemFever

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Messages
2,419
I say go for it! I sometimes do it myself just out of curiosity, but I don't usually post my results. If the pics would clearly benefit from some light & white balance adjustment, I think it's nice of you to take the time and do it.
 

iluvshinythings

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
894
I thought maybe you were photoshopping out a double chin or something which would be an improvement but probably not received well.

I think fixing the color or white balance is fine.
 

chrono

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
38,227
I cannot imagine anyone not appreciating a simple colour correction and/or brightening an obviously dark picture. I would be thrilled for you to "fix" my pictures, Kenny. To be on the safe side, why not offer your assistance first?
 

pregcurious

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
6,724
I think it's out of kindness, but it's safe to ask. I have access to Photoshop, but because people are so sensitive about Photoshopping, I've only ever used the crop feature. Now that I see that people are open to other changes, I may do so with a note that it's been changed.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
pregcurious|1392327257|3614689 said:
I have access to Photoshop, but because people are so sensitive about Photoshopping, I've only ever used the crop feature.
Now that I see that people are open to other changes, I may do so with a note that it's been changed.

They are sensitive because they are poorly informed.
Let fix that.
The 'ethics' of Photoshopping is a sooooorely-misunderstood topic here on Pricescope.
This is perhaps understandable considering Photoshop now makes it so easy for naughty vendors to deceive us by manipulating gem pics.
I have discussed the legitimate use of Photoshop many times but this thread is the perfect place to explain it again.

There is nothing sacred, honest, pure or superior about what comes directly out of a camera.
All pictures are lies; they are only two dimensional whereas the world is three dimensional.
You don't have to explain that your photos are only two dimensional, and you don't have to explain ethical return-to-truth use of Photoshop.

As I explained in a post above even the best camera, with the best lighting, used by the best photographer often produces pics that do not look true to life.
This is because the equipment itself is not perfect and never will be.
I see Photography as a two-step process and the camera can only do step 1.

Using Photoshop to bring such pics back to what you know to be more honest and truthful is a good thing, not a bad thing.
And no, you don't have to explain, justify or even disclose honest Photoshopping any more than you'd have to disclose whether you selected your fancy camera's center-weighting vs. its spot-weighting vs. its full-frame averaging exposure setting.

I learned photography in the 70s with film cameras and no Photoshop.
Even back then we controlled how the final results would look by how we developed the film, exposed the paper, and processed the paper to achieve the results we wanted.
Then there was retouching the print with a tiny brush and Spotone dye.

Vendors do not want to talk about their Photoshop use precisely because Psers are so misinformed and sensitive about it, but I'm certain that many, probably most, of them DO Photoshop with the goal of more truthful pics, not pics that deceive or lie to make the gem look better.

BTW, my DSLR has a feture which brightens up every pic it takes while the pic is being taken.
I could set that and never have to use Photoshop.
Then I could brag I never Photoshop but really, is it really morally superior to adjust adjust the exposure before taking the pic instead of after?
So much of the negative broad brush people paint Photoshop use with is just lack of education.
So I'm educating.

Photoshop is just another tool, like a telephone or a car.
A car can be used as a get-away car in a bank robbery or to deliver food to a charity.
That does not make the car good or bad.
 

marymm

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
5,110
Kenny, I can and do appreciate your photography skills and your willingness to share techniques. And in my opinion, if someone specifically asks for assistance with a specific photo(s), whether made directly to you or to the PS community at large, it is wonderful if you wish to assist that person with their request.

But if someone is posting pics that are too dark and isn't asking for help or didn't preface their photo posts with some kind of lament of their darkness and/or poor quality, IMHO it could come off as rude if you were to ask if they want their pics fixed. And frankly, to just fix them of your volition would be rude.

I realize so far I am an outlier - but each PS member is contributing their own posts and pictures - really, a bit of themselves - and barring specific requests for assistance - it would be a sorry place if other members decided there was some kind of quality criterion for submittals, whether directed at photos or the written word such that "corrections" or "fixes" could be made in the absence of the original poster's request for help.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 8, 2008
Messages
50,583
I think it is a generous offer and also think most people would appreciate it. And I don't think it is rude to ask. I would not be offended and in fact would be happy.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
marymm|1392329474|3614721 said:
Kenny, I can and do appreciate your photography skills and your willingness to share techniques. And in my opinion, if someone specifically asks for assistance with a specific photo(s), whether made directly to you or to the PS community at large, it is wonderful if you wish to assist that person with their request.

But if someone is posting pics that are too dark and isn't asking for help or didn't preface their photo posts with some kind of lament of their darkness and/or poor quality, IMHO it could come off as rude if you were to ask if they want their pics fixed. And frankly, to just fix them of your volition would be rude.

I realize so far I am an outlier - but each PS member is contributing their own posts and pictures - really, a bit of themselves - and barring specific requests for assistance - it would be a sorry place if other members decided there was some kind of quality criterion for submittals, whether directed at photos or the written word such that "corrections" or "fixes" could be made in the absence of the original poster's request for help.

Thank you for your well-articulated perspective, Marymm.
I respect it, and you for posting it.

I know some people would think it rude if I altered pics without asking or being asked … but does that mean I shouldn't do it?
Is getting people to like Kenny as much as possible more important than doing what benefits the community overall?

The core question here is, even though some would think it rude does the upside outweigh the downside for the community?

Many people here already see me as a wart on Pricescopes beautiful face, and I'm clearly not too worried about winning any Oscar for niceness.
I go for other Oscars, like the Academe Award for working hardest to raise the bar of Photography at Pricescope.

IMO, the community would benefit from pics that better communicate what the OP intended.
Does anyone really think the OP preferred the dark version below?
A good pic is worth a thousand words.
A needy pic doesn't say as much.



Yes I am judging, pics not people, and judging is not only okay it's essential to improvement.
Pics are an important aspect of Pricescope.

original_on_the_0.png
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
I already see a consensus developing, don't alter people's pics unless being asked to, or asking first.

See, I'm capable of learning.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
25,534
Alter away! My gems, my jewellery, my face - make all things Yssie as beautiful as you like Kenny :bigsmile:
 

momhappy

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 3, 2013
Messages
4,660
When I read your first post, Kenny, I thought you were referring to people! As in photoshopping out wrinkles and such :lol: With certain things (like jewelry pics), no I wouldn't say that it was a bad thing to touch up photos. With people? Not so much ;-)
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,170
marymm|1392329474|3614721 said:
Kenny, I can and do appreciate your photography skills and your willingness to share techniques. And in my opinion, if someone specifically asks for assistance with a specific photo(s), whether made directly to you or to the PS community at large, it is wonderful if you wish to assist that person with their request.

But if someone is posting pics that are too dark and isn't asking for help or didn't preface their photo posts with some kind of lament of their darkness and/or poor quality, IMHO it could come off as rude if you were to ask if they want their pics fixed. And frankly, to just fix them of your volition would be rude.

I realize so far I am an outlier - but each PS member is contributing their own posts and pictures - really, a bit of themselves - and barring specific requests for assistance - it would be a sorry place if other members decided there was some kind of quality criterion for submittals, whether directed at photos or the written word such that "corrections" or "fixes" could be made in the absence of the original poster's request for help.

1000% agree with this - and I say this being equally passionate about photography.

As you're so fond of saying, people vary, so others may not wish to have someone else take it upon himself or herself to 'improve' submissions.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,170
kenny|1392331943|3614764 said:
I know some people would think it rude if I altered pics without asking or being asked … but does that mean I shouldn't do it?

Yes, that's what it means. It's not your right (or mine or anyone else's) to impose our standards to someone else's photographs.

kenny|1392331943|3614764 said:
The core question here is, even though some would think it rude does the upside outweigh the downside for the community?

.......
Yes I am judging, pics not people, and judging is not only okay it's essential to improvement.
Pics are an important aspect of Pricescope.

You are presuming that people inherently want to be 'improved'; I really don't think they do if they don't expressly ask. I feel that the potential to alienate members who post would negate any slight benefit reaped from 'raising the bar' for photography.

For me, this is really like almost all other things. I wouldn't presume to tell someone else how she should improve her manner of dress, or how much better *I* think she'd look if she'd update her haircut, and though I love diamonds I would not tell someone that the only 'right' purchase is my idea of what a good stone is.

I'd rather see you offer, e.g. "I lightened your photo on my computer so I could better see what you're trying to describe. I'd be happy to add it to this thread if you'd like me to."

I don't see the point of doing something offensive when most people will probably welcome the assist anyway?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
aljdewey|1392342942|3614916 said:
kenny|1392331943|3614764 said:
I know some people would think it rude if I altered pics without asking or being asked … but does that mean I shouldn't do it?

Yes, that's what it means. It's not your right (or mine or anyone else's) to impose our standards to someone else's photographs.

kenny|1392331943|3614764 said:
The core question here is, even though some would think it rude does the upside outweigh the downside for the community?

.......
Yes I am judging, pics not people, and judging is not only okay it's essential to improvement.
Pics are an important aspect of Pricescope.

You are presuming that people inherently want to be 'improved'; I really don't think they do if they don't expressly ask. I feel that the potential to alienate members who post would negate any slight benefit reaped from 'raising the bar' for photography.

For me, this is really like almost all other things. I wouldn't presume to tell someone else how she should improve her manner of dress, or how much better *I* think she'd look if she'd update her haircut, and though I love diamonds I would not tell someone that the only 'right' purchase is my idea of what a good stone is.

I'd rather see you offer, e.g. "I lightened your photo on my computer so I could better see what you're trying to describe. I'd be happy to add it to this thread if you'd like me to."

I don't see the point of doing something offensive when most people will probably welcome the assist anyway?

Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
… and OUCH! too!

I'm talking about improving pics, not people.
Huge difference.
 

Kaleigh

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Messages
29,570
It's great if they give you the go ahead. I think it's crossing the line for you to alter their pics without consent.

I think your intentions are good and well meaning..

BUT as always you seem to want to extend boundaries, and all to fit into Kenny's world.

You want to start up a business doing photos of PS'ers jewelry or what not.. Then do that...

But what we have here works.. People post their pics...

Are darn well proud to do so....

And why take away from that??

;))
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
33,852
Ok with me!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
Kaleigh|1392343604|3614923 said:
… you seem to want to extend boundaries, and all to fit into Kenny's world.

Don't we all?
With your post you are attempting to extend boundaries to fit into Kal's world.

We all do it.
At least I'm up front honest and offering my process up to public debate, instead of hiding behind some universal righteousness.

I don't care that you don't like me.

Carl Jung said something to the effect of, we can learn most about ourselves from the people who annoy us most.

Clearly the Spaghetti Monster knew what she was doing when she put Kal and Kenny in the same forum.
 

aljdewey

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 25, 2002
Messages
9,170
Kenny, there is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I understood exactly what you were suggesting - altering someone else's photographs (that are not of people) in the name of raising the quality to what you deem an acceptable level.

And I offered my opinion (which you invited by starting a thread asking for opinions) that I believe it's rude and presumptuous to do so without someone's consent.

You seem to think that anytime someone doesn't agree with you, it's because they don't like you. I disagree. I don't dislike you at all, and my opinion on this topic would be precisely the same if it were suggested by my closest friends here on PS.
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
8,502
Once a picture is posted here does it become property of Andrey? If so, no one can alter anything without either his consent or being an employee. And even if a pic doesn't become the property of PS, surely there's some rule against altering content without someone's consent. If we can alter pics without consent, I sure as heck expect to be able to edit others' posts without consent. How fun would that be. :bigsmile:
 

VRBeauty

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
10,928
I think it depends. :D

If the picture is posted to demonstrate a point and solicit specific input (other than oohs and ahhs) and the picture quality interferes with that - then I think it's safe to assume your help would be appreciate. For example, if someone is concerned about a perceived flaw in their setting, but the picture quality makes it difficult to see what's going on... then in all likelihood they'd appreciate whatever you could do to clarify the picture, so to speak.

If someone is posting for general SMTB purposes, then I agree it's a bit presumptuous to just change it without the poster's permission.

Perhaps you could just start a thread in which you offer your services as a picture-fixer-upper?
 

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
3,030
Hi,

Well Kenny, I must have quite a different opinion of you than others do. I just can't see you changing peoples pics without asking them. I don't think you;d do it. You'd ask if they needed some help.

In fact the previous owner used to help posters a lot with pic. They even used to place different stones in setting to see how they looked. Sometimes, someone wished they could do the above, and suddenly their request was met. No one knew it was coming. I never saw one complaint when Admin fixed or gave another example of something. They were grateful.

I can even think of people saying, "Let me see if I can fix that picture for you." They do it , no problem.

People who find trouble, find it everywhere. Its their personality,


Annette

If I ever learn to do pics, feel free to fix anything I put up.
 

blackprophet

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
531
I chose other.

I think you should ask as well in most cases. And here's why:

You said it yourself that photoshop is used to make the photo better reflect reality. But if you haven't seen the piece in real life, how do you know the photo doesn't reflect reality? You would have to ask.

Now if the person states "my pics always come out dark" or something else that shows that they wish the pic could be improved then I think you could go ahead and do it with out asking, the request is essentially out there. But if they haven't stated anything, then its probably best to ask if improvement is needed, before you modify the pic. Maybe they think the pic is accurate. Maybe they are taking the pic in average light.

You know what they say about people who assume. :mrgreen:
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
Thanks everyone. :wavey:
I appreciate the feedback to my question.
 

Harpertoo

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
613
Hey Kenny,
Have you ever read Susan Sontag's On Photography?
Your comments on the subjective nature of the camera and photography made me think of it. As a photo enthusiast I agree with much of what you said. And a lot of PS photos are posted as a visual description rather than an artistic or personal vision -- but I do think I'd tread lightly with other people's creations. some people prefer their flaws.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
13,191
It is very poor form in my opinion to work on someone else's picture without first asking or them asking in my opinion.
The only exception is to enlarge or put arrows on the picture to point out an educational point.
My opinion is for education about something in the image its ok. Otherwise get permission!
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
13,191
Matata|1392399011|3615276 said:
Once a picture is posted here does it become property of Andrey? If so, no one can alter anything without either his consent or being an employee. And even if a pic doesn't become the property of PS, surely there's some rule against altering content without someone's consent. If we can alter pics without consent, I sure as heck expect to be able to edit others' posts without consent. How fun would that be. :bigsmile:
NO! They are copyrighted by the owner of the photo.
By uploading a picture you grant pricescope certain rights to the photo but you still own it!
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top