How would you feel...

[Trekkie]

...if you found out your husband was using prostitutes?

A friend's wife recently discovered that he was using working girls while away on business trips. My friend (for the hell of it, let's call him John seeing as, well... I think that's pretty self explanatory) doesn't view this as cheating. John says he could have had an affair but he didn't - he just wanted his sexual needs met without emotional entanglements. His wife (let's call her Jane) is livid.

Background: Jane is in her forties, John is nearly ten years younger than she is. They've both gained a bit of weight since getting married but he carries his weight well - very active, very sporty and still very attractive. Jane has kind of let herself go - she doesn't dress up anymore, doesn't wear makeup, just doesn't care about her appearance. They work for the same company and have similar jobs but he works longer hours. They don't have children. They have had sex three times this year.

John's argument is that he wasn't being emotionally unfaithful - it was just sex. He feels that if he was getting it at home he wouldn't need to look elsewhere. Other than the lack of intimacy, he feels they have a very good marriage and still finds Jane very attractive.

Jane feels that he was being unfaithful. She has moved into the spare room. She says she doesn't want a divorce. She refuses to go for counselling.

Do you think what he did was cheating? How would you react if you were in this situation? How would you feel if you discovered your husband was using prostitutes? Would you feel differently if he'd had an affair?

Importantly, do you think this is Jane's fault because she has consistently refused intimacy?

 

[missy]

Cheating can be on an emotional only level or a physical level only or a combination of both. Do I consider this cheating- absolutely. Is this Jane's fault because she refused intimacy? Absolutely not. They needed marriage counseling/therapy not sex with prostitutes. But he went out and had sex with prostitutes without her knowledge/approval so yeah, he cheated. Now she refuses counseling. That is just messed up and not sure where they go from here but without professional psychiatric/psychological help I don't think this relationship will ever be a healthy one.

This relationship sounds dysfunctional even before he had sex with prostitutes. There seem to be significant unresolved problems in the marriage that need to be worked on together if there is any hope for their relationship IMO.

 

[Trekkie]

Cheating can be on an emotional only level or a physical level only or a combination of both. Do I consider this cheating- absolutely. Is this Jane's fault because she refused intimacy? Absolutely not. They needed marriage counseling/therapy not sex with prostitutes. But he went out and had sex with prostitutes without her knowledge/approval so yeah, he cheated. Now she refuses counseling. That is just messed up and not sure where they go from here but without professional psychiatric/psychological help I don't think this relationship will ever be a healthy one.

This relationship sounds dysfunctional even before he had sex with prostitutes. There seem to be significant unresolved problems in the marriage that need to be worked on together if there is any hope for their relationship IMO.

Thanks for your response, Missy! I agree with what you say, but Jane point blank refuses to go for therapy. She says he's the one who cheated, he needs to fix it. She isn't telling him what he can do to fix it. John started individual counselling last week and the first thing his therapist asked was, "where's your wife?"

I totally agree with the bolded part - imho, the fact that it was without her knowledge is what makes it cheating.

 

[JillyC]

It is John's fault, and it is, indeed, cheating. John needs to own up to this mistake and show his wife that he feels remorse about it.

It is the fault of both of them that there were problems in the marriage that were not being dealt with appropriately. It is the responsibility of both of them to acknowledge and fix the problems. Likely they won't be able to do that without counseling, and if not it will happen again.

Good luck to both of them. It takes guts and a whole lot of hard work to get past infidelity.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

What a mess. Yes, John cheated and in a way I find particularly disgusting (paying for sex). He is an adult and should be able to keep his vows, work on things with his wife or face the reality that it is unbearable for him and end the marriage. Jane, however, is not taking care of her marriage or seeing that her own behaviour (by refusing to address the problem) is making things worse.

 

[missy]

Without respect you cannot have a good relationship. John lacks respect for Jane and without knowing more it seems Jane lacks respect for herself.

 

[TC1987]

I think that john handled it wrong. I mean, he should have discussed this problem with Jane, and at least given her a say in her own marriage. But it sounds like he just made a unilateral decision that he'd solve his problem by using prostitutes. All income earned in marriage is joint income. So, would it be okay with John if Jane went out and spent joint income on male prostitutes, but wasn't having an affair? Just asking, LOL. I'd wager that would not be acceptable to John. Maybe John has treated Jane as less than an equal all along, and that's why she isn't intimate with him anymore. Some men think that it's okay to ignore a wife and leave her at home with the housework or whatever and just go off and have fun and excitement without her. Sounds like John is that type to me: Technically still married, but definitely living single. They say one of the signs to look for is the person decided to get in shape and look spiffy.

 

[arkieb1]

I think that John has to man up and accept that if his relationship was that crappy then he should have told Jane how he felt about it and attempted to either a) work it out and fix it or b) accept that he wasn't getting his needs met in that relationship and if the other person refused to seek help with that then its time to snap her out of it or move on and leave.

Both John and Jane have a role to play in a marriage gone wrong. Each burying their heads in the sand in their own way is not going to fix their underlying issues.

John may feel like he didn't do anything wrong by compartmentalising having sex with hookers, but at the end of the day he took marriage vows and signed up for the "C" word - commitment which he didn't honour. Unfortunately when you marry someone you can't have shades of commitment, you are either fully committed to the other person or you aren't.

Jane needs to get her head out of her own backside and take ownership of why her relationship is in the toilet, getting counselling is a good place to start....

If Jane was meeting his needs and having sex with him on a regular basis would that make what he did more or less right? I don't think it would but I am curious what others think about that.

 

[Trekkie]

I think that john handled it wrong. I mean, he should have discussed this problem with Jane, and at least given her a say in her own marriage. But it sounds like he just made a unilateral decision that he'd solve his problem by using prostitutes. All income earned in marriage is joint income. So, would it be okay with John if Jane went out and spent joint income on male prostitutes, but wasn't having an affair? Just asking, LOL. I'd wager that would not be acceptable to John. Maybe John has treated Jane as less than an equal all along, and that's why she isn't intimate with him anymore. Some men think that it's okay to ignore a wife and leave her at home with the housework or whatever and just go off and have fun and excitement without her. Sounds like John is that type to me: Technically still married, but definitely living single. They say one of the signs to look for is the person decided to get in shape and look spiffy.

Not true in this case - they keep their finances very separate.

Not sure how the lack of intimacy came about... When they first started dating they were all over each other. They have a full time maid and John does the weekly grocery shopping (Jane hates the shops in our town), so I don't think it's resentment because she's overworked. Tbh, Jane sounds depressed to me and I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with hormonal changes? She is 44 - is that too young for menopause?

Loved your last statement! John has always been in good shape but has gained a bit of weight right along with Jane. Hmmmm, I'd say looks wise John is about a 7 and Jane is about a 6 when she puts some effort into it. Over weekends she looks a bit like one of those people from www.peopleofwalmart.com

I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people who say it's John's fault. I was sort of expecting "well, she isn't giving him any and he's got neeeeeeeds" to dominate the discussion.

 

[Trekkie]

I think that John has to man up and accept that if his relationship was that crappy then he should have told Jane how he felt about it and attempted to either a) work it out and fix it or b) accept that he wasn't getting his needs met in that relationship and if the other person refused to seek help with that then its time to snap her out of it or move on and leave.

Both John and Jane have a role to play in a marriage gone wrong. Each burying their heads in the sand in their own way is not going to fix their underlying issues.

John may feel like he didn't do anything wrong by compartmentalising having sex with hookers, but at the end of the day he took marriage vows and signed up for the "C" word - commitment which he didn't honour. Unfortunately when you marry someone you can't have shades of commitment, you are either fully committed to the other person or you aren't.

Jane needs to get her head out of her own backside and take ownership of why her relationship is in the toilet, getting counselling is a good place to start....

If Jane was meeting his needs and having sex with him on a regular basis would that make what he did more or less right? I don't think it would but I am curious what others think about that.

I also wonder if he would have done this if they were having regular sex... He says absolutely not and says that it started in the last year or so when things started getting really bad.

 

[arkieb1]

I think that John has to man up and accept that if his relationship was that crappy then he should have told Jane how he felt about it and attempted to either a) work it out and fix it or b) accept that he wasn't getting his needs met in that relationship and if the other person refused to seek help with that then its time to snap her out of it or move on and leave.

Both John and Jane have a role to play in a marriage gone wrong. Each burying their heads in the sand in their own way is not going to fix their underlying issues.

John may feel like he didn't do anything wrong by compartmentalising having sex with hookers, but at the end of the day he took marriage vows and signed up for the "C" word - commitment which he didn't honour. Unfortunately when you marry someone you can't have shades of commitment, you are either fully committed to the other person or you aren't.

Jane needs to get her head out of her own backside and take ownership of why her relationship is in the toilet, getting counselling is a good place to start....

If Jane was meeting his needs and having sex with him on a regular basis would that make what he did more or less right? I don't think it would but I am curious what others think about that.

I also wonder if he would have done this if they were having regular sex... He says absolutely not and says that it started in the last year or so when things started getting really bad.

I guess I was thinking that too but on the flip side its kind of a convenient excuse. He could also be making out he is getting less sex at home than he really is getting to paint her in a worse light and himself in a better one.... if things were "really bad" then make her go to counselling, I really don't understand the whole I have to stay with this person and lie and cheat when there are no kids involved. I have known lots of businessmen that do the same thing but they justify themselves by claiming they stay in crappy marriages for the sake of the kids.

 

[Asscherhalo_lover]

This lies with both of them. If Jane refuses counseling and there is obviously a rift between them that they are not working out John should seek a divorce before sleeping with someone else. She can say she doesn't want a divorce but if she doesn't talk about why there is such a lack of intimacy then that's her failing.

 

[Trekkie]

I think that John has to man up and accept that if his relationship was that crappy then he should have told Jane how he felt about it and attempted to either a) work it out and fix it or b) accept that he wasn't getting his needs met in that relationship and if the other person refused to seek help with that then its time to snap her out of it or move on and leave.

Both John and Jane have a role to play in a marriage gone wrong. Each burying their heads in the sand in their own way is not going to fix their underlying issues.

John may feel like he didn't do anything wrong by compartmentalising having sex with hookers, but at the end of the day he took marriage vows and signed up for the "C" word - commitment which he didn't honour. Unfortunately when you marry someone you can't have shades of commitment, you are either fully committed to the other person or you aren't.

Jane needs to get her head out of her own backside and take ownership of why her relationship is in the toilet, getting counselling is a good place to start....

If Jane was meeting his needs and having sex with him on a regular basis would that make what he did more or less right? I don't think it would but I am curious what others think about that.

I also wonder if he would have done this if they were having regular sex... He says absolutely not and says that it started in the last year or so when things started getting really bad.

I guess I was thinking that too but on the flip side its kind of a convenient excuse. He could also be making out he is getting less sex at home than he really is getting to paint her in a worse light and himself in a better one.... if things were "really bad" then make her go to counselling, I really don't understand the whole I have to stay with this person and lie and cheat when there are no kids involved. I have known lots of businessmen that do the same thing but they justify themselves by claiming they stay in crappy marriages for the sake of the kids.

They definitely aren't having a lot of sex. They went on a month long trip to Europe earlier this year and before they left she joked with me and another friend that she'd probably have to put out while there. At the same time she also mentioned that up until then the last time they'd had sex was his birthday (which was more than eight months earlier).

She refuses to go to counselling.

 

[arkieb1]

Well she has to take some ownership of the situation rather than just blaming him. Did he do the wrong think YES. But being in denial that there are HUGE issues in their marriage isn't going to help fix them.

 

[dk168]

Having sex with another person, with or without romantic attachment or emotional dependence, behind the back of a partner, IMHO, is cheating.

DK

 

[Smith1942]

I agree with a lot of the responses. Yes, he cheated, and being unfaithful is not the answer to the problem.

I cannot believe that John is attempting to brush this off as OK. Good Lord. He's lucky that Jane isn't away and over the hills for good by now. He cheated, and what's particularly disgusting is that he put her health at risk. You say they've had sex three times this year - well, you can catch any number of STDs just from having sex once, some of which are permanent and even life-threatening. And if he says he used a condom, I'm not sure I'd believe him.

What I find particularly repugnant is his attempt to brazen his way out of it by telling her it's not cheating. What next - is he going to tell her the sky isn't blue and the sea isn't wet? He must think she's an absolute idiot.

If my husband cheated that would be really hard to recover from. If he then wasn't even sorry, and attempted to tell me that what he did was really OK, I think my love for him would just die.

John had other options apart from doing something so disgusting. He could have sat Jane down and put her in the picture about his urges. He could have communicated to her how hard a lack of sexual intimacy was for him. He could have expressed the pain that he was feeling. He could have told her that he had thought about cheating because he is finding the lack of sex almost impossible to live with. That's better than actually cheating. They could have gone to counselling to find out why their sex life wasn't happening. John could have stuck up for his needs and what he finds attractive. So, if he is bothered about her weight, he could have said that what he would love best in the world is for them to get fit and healthy together and enjoy a rampant sex life again. He could have reached out to Jane in all sorts of ways.

Having done his best, if nothing changed, he had the option of telling Jane that he is a human being who has a need for sexual love and that he cannot live in a marriage for the rest of his days without it, and then leaving.

John had SO many other places to go with this besides shagging prostitutes and then telling his wife it's perfectly OK to do so. Presumably he didn't confess, but she found out by accident? If it's all so OK, why didn't he say, "Honey, I'm gonna be home late tonight as I'm seeing one of my prostitutes. Catch you for breakfast!"

If Jane wants to save her marriage then this guy needs a MASSIVE kick up the arse. She needs to throw him out for six months and see him only at counselling appointments. If they are going to save anything then she needs to get through to him that what's he's done is in no way, shape, or form OK, and it sounds as if only drastic action is going to get through.

But frankly, John sounds like a total arse. Jane sounds attractive. She should dump him, get herself in shape and start dating. And she might also want to examine why she thought that it was OK for her partner to live in a marriage with no sexual love and intimacy. That doesn't excuse what John did and his caveman attitude about it, but also it's not OK to take your partner off the market and then sexually reject them over a very long period of time. If Jane really thought that she barely ever wanted to have sex with John again - and he was not OK with that - then Jane should have let him go.

Longterm sexual rejection in marriage can be devastating, isolating, and lonely. I wonder if this is really about getting his needs met, or about punishing her.

 

[dk168]

It takes two to Tango, and that much is true for a relationship. Therefore, if the relationship has broken down, then both parties are at fault, but not necessarily to the same extent, IMHO.

DK

 

[ame]

Yes it is cheating and no it's not her fault. She can "refuse" intimacy all she wants, sometimes there's a lull in the sexuality, sometimes there's something wrong and clearly there has been because he's been dipping his wick elsewhere and thought nothing of it.

He has NO right and NO reason to go outside of the marriage. I can't believe she's not divorcing him because I'd have thrown HIM out, and immediately lawyered up. ANYTHING outside of the marriage, sex or whatever, is cheating and the ultimate betrayal and as far as I am concerned it is not forgiveable, not fixable, end of relationship. Over. And in this case, I hope she's getting tested just in case there WAS any intimacy since he's been doing this.

 

[decodelighted]

Any chance she's gay? If I was going to Europe for a month with my husband I'd be looking forward to a lot of "holiday sex." The fact she's dreading intimacy during a vacation is a huge red flag for me.

As to the cheating ... I'd be livid. Was she refusing counseling BEFORE the cheating? Because here's the deal ... they had problems BEFORE that.

And I don't even know what to think about a) not wanting divorce b) refusing counseling c) telling him to "fix it"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL. Blah blah blah you can't see me if my head's under the covers. Yikes! She sounds very immature and he sounds like an ass. (But at least an ass who is TRYING SOMETHING.)

 

[chrono]

+1 to Smith's response. It takes two to make the marriage work. John definitely screwed up big time but if Jane has no intention of seeking help for herself either, then I do not see the relationship improving. Paying for the services of a prostitute is cheating in my book, regardless of all the excuses in the world. Blaming everything on the guy isn't going to save the marriage either so if Jane wants to have a happy marriage, she needs to talk/work it out with John. Doing nothing other than staying in separate rooms solves nothing.

Deco,
Some men and women just have a lower sexual drive, it doesn't mean that she's gay. I would love a month long Europe vacation to sightsee but dread the "holiday sex" portion.

 

[iluvshinythings]

It sounds like their marriage was in trouble long before the prostitute.

John's theory that he wasn't cheating because he was with a prostitute is ridiculous. Jane refusing to meet her spouses' needs is also ridiculous.

I don't think that both spouses are always to blame when an affair happens. Sometimes there is plenty of sex between the married couple and the affair is about something else. I realize that's not the case here but it's unfair automatically blame the person who didn't make the choice to have the affair.

I hope Jane realizes that she's not taking any constructive steps to resolve her marital issues by hiding in her room and continuing to deny her partner's needs and I hope John stops denying that he's a cheater just because he paid for it.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

If this happened to me, to answer the OP question: I would feel the marriage is FINALLY over.


Of course begs the question, in regards to marriage, what's in it for these folks? Sorry, this is a hijack. And I have to agree with Chrono's line and vacations....sorry hijack II.

cheers--Sharon

 

[TooPatient]

Was it cheating? -- YES.

Was it her fault? -- NO.

Was it his fault? -- YES.


The lead up to this was caused by both of them. They BOTH should have taken the time and effort to work on their relationship. He should have sat down and talked with her. She should have listened. They should BOTH have worked together to make sure both of them were happy.

Going forward? They BOTH need to pull their heads out of their behinds and grow up. You can't blame the other person and say it was "just prostitutes" so was okay. You also can't refuse all counseling and tell the other to "fix it". If they can't figure out how to work together to save their marriage then it is over.

What she should do:
Sit down and talk to her husband.
INSIST that he get a full set of tests for STDs with her present for testing and results.
Get individual counseling. (is she depressed? If she wasn't before, I can see how she'd at least have stuff to work out after.)
Get couples counseling.

What he should do:
Sit down and talk to his wife -- and NOT try to blame her or claim it was okay.
Get his unfaithful backside to the dr and be tested for STDs. If his wife doesn't want to come, bring the results home for her.
Keep going with the individual counseling.
Find a couples counselor and be ready to go as soon as his wife is willing.
Order THIS and go through it alone if he can't get his wife to do it with him.

Both:
Put a bit more (okay, lots more) effort into the relationship.
Quit lounging in grubby clothes.
Set aside time together.
Read any of John Gottman's books http://www.gottman.com/
Buy the "Love Map" cards from that site (and use them!)
Buy the "salsa" cards and use them!


FWIW -- I do NOT work in any way for the place I linked to. I don't know them. I've read several of their books with DH. We do have the "Love Map" cards, the "salsa" cards, and a couple of the DVDs. They are great if you're willing to go through them.

 

[Circe]

Cheating is always the active partner's fault - "fault," "doing," "responsibility," choose the word you see fit. It's not on the "homewrecker" and it's not on the spouse who's "let him or herself go." The cheater always has the option of talking to their partner, trying to work things out, asking them how they'd feel about going on a diet together, asking them to get their hormone levels checked, asking them to go to couples therapy ... there are a million options.

I would be incredibly wounded if my husband ever cheated on me.

But I would be murderously angry if he visited a sex worker, simply because so many are exploited*, and I would lose all respect for anybody, man or woman, who would rank their sexual satisfaction over the possibility of contributing to somebody's misery.

*Yes, I know that some sex workers choose their occupations freely and enjoy what they do. Human trafficking statistics strongly suggest that they are the rare exceptions, and not the rule.

 

[PetitiePoire]

The position their marriage is in is on both of them. Both have let themselves go and don't seem to respect the other. Marriage has lulls in it, especially if there is depression like you mentioned, and John needs to realize before buying prostitutes. That should have never been an option in his mind. It would break my heart.

As a wife, I fully believe it's my responsibility to remain physically and emotionally attractive to my husband. I know we are in this for the long haul and don't believe it would be fair for him to marry a thin, well dressed girl and end up with someone from peopleofwalmart after the I Dos are done.

That said, I don't see why he is the only one in therapy. She sounds like she needs some herself. They need both seperate and couple counseling for this to get anywhere. There must be a reason she doesn't want to have sex with him and once they figure that out it sounds like they could be better off, if she can forgive him for being unfaithful.

 

[momhappy]

Lets be honest here, "John" saying that he wasn't cheating (and that is was just sex) is just an excuse - and a bad one at that. He's deflecting blame and putting it on "Jane" (by saying that if he wasn't getting it at home, blah, blah, blah...). Not only has he betrayed her, disrespected her, and hurt her terribly, but he doesn't even have the balls enough to man up to his mistakes, so in my book, that makes him a giant douche bag. The fact that they're intimacy has declined, is on both of them. It's such a lame excuse to say, "well, I wasn't getting it at home..." Im sure there are reasons why he wasn't getting it at home and if he's willing to utilize prostitutes while married (wich makes him a loser in my book), then it kinda' makes me wonder how he was treating his wife (which in turn casued her to stop wanting to have sex with him).
To answer the question on a personal level, I would be totally grossed out if I found out that my husband was sleeping with prostitutes. I'd like to think that after several years, children, etc. my husband and I might even have the ability to work through a typical cheating scenario, but not likely if prostitutes were involved. I just don't have any respect for men who pay for sex.

 

[Gypsy]

Look. Your wife is not being a good partner? Divorce her. Don't cheat.

If your wife is refusing to go to counseling or do what it takes to make the marriage work for both of you. The solution is divorce. And then you can have all the prostitutes you want.

But don't cheat. Put on your big boy pants, face the problem. And if your wife is not being the partner you need, get out of the marriage. No sex form your wife does not equal she is asking to be cheated on. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And yes, going to a prostitute or any woman for sex that is not your wife is cheating. Emotionally or otherwise makes no difference. That was YOUR decision. And it was wrong. She didn't MAKE YOU cheat. You did that yourself. Regardless of what she did, you need to own up to your own actions. Just has she has to own up to her part in the marriage failing. But don't blame her for what was your own conscious decision to cheat.

 

[partgypsy]

I'd be even more livid if my husband cheated on me with prostitutes. Yeah regardless of who you cheated with, even more of a necessity to get tested for STDs because of his actions.

I think they both need individual counseling, and marriage counseling, or simply let the other one out of the marriage.

 

[iLander]

Oh, John is full of bull$hit.

"If I can't get it at home, then I'm entitled to get it elsewhere." Really?

What if the problem were reversed? Is Jane entitled?

What if one of them were to have an accident or illness and become incapacitated? Is it time to call the escorts?

What happened to "for better or for worse"?

Bull$hit.

Jane is retreating, and needs to deal with the problem, not just move to the guest room. John is the problem. Boot his horny butt out of there, and find someone who loves her unconditionally. That's what love is. Not this line of crap the John is dishing out.

There is no such thing as a person "letting themselves go". You love the inside, not the outside. Those wrinkled, bald, toothless, old people that are married 50 years of more, do they all look like they've "let themselves go"? Time wrestles all vanity away, wether you want it to or not. If someone truly loves you they won't notice.

I call B.S. on smooth-talking John.

 

[TravelingGal]

They both suck. Both have issues. Bottom line is he cheated, and it's not her FAULT that he cheated, as he is the master of his own decisions. But she IS responsible as well for their marriage being unhealthy.

I think what people can forget is that if you ask your spouse to forsake all others, then it is important that you are actively intimate with your spouse OR addressing the issue as best you can. You can't stick your head in the sand and expect the other person to be happy dealing with it.