How would you feel...

[Nyc2chigal]

I'll be honest...
John is in the wrong, but Jane is not innocent, either.

Men think differently than women do. Their needs are different.
If you reject your husband repeatedly, don't take care of yourself, and have the attitude she has (I doubt her refusal to do anything to salvage the marriage started there), then don't be shocked if crap like this happens.

Before anyone bites my head off, I know every situation is different.

If the roles were reversed, I think some people would actually feel for Jane.. that she was being neglected, and that she needed someone to connect with, blah blah...

If Jane doesn't want to get a divorce, she needs to be involved in the repair. Period.

 

[JulieN]

Do you think what he did was cheating? How would you react if you were in this situation? How would you feel if you discovered your husband was using prostitutes? Would you feel differently if he'd had an affair?

Importantly, do you think this is Jane's fault because she has consistently refused intimacy?

Yes, it is cheating. IMO using pros on a business trip is better than an affair. I don't think it is Jane's fault, but she is partially responsible. Any kind of fight or disagreement, usually not one person is wholly responsible.

 

[momhappy]

Any chance she's gay? If I was going to Europe for a month with my husband I'd be looking forward to a lot of "holiday sex." The fact she's dreading intimacy during a vacation is a huge red flag for me.

As to the cheating ... I'd be livid. Was she refusing counseling BEFORE the cheating? Because here's the deal ... they had problems BEFORE that.

And I don't even know what to think about a) not wanting divorce b) refusing counseling c) telling him to "fix it"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL. Blah blah blah you can't see me if my head's under the covers. Yikes! She sounds very immature and he sounds like an a$$. (But at least an a$$ who is TRYING SOMETHING.)

I don't think it's fair to ask that she might be gay just because she's not interested in sex with her husband. As someone else posted, sexuality ebbs and flows. There are times when the frequency is high and times when the frequency is low. And what the heck is "holiday sex?" I'm guessing that if there were problems before, those things don't just disappear while on vacation (and therefore, not a red flag for me).
I guess my take on this is that he's an DB, she picks up on that vibe, and subsequently lacks the desire to be intimate with him. I guess with the limited amount of information, it's pure speculation on my part, but it stems from the fact that I think poorly of men who think it's okay to pay for sex.

 

[movie zombie]

oops, I read the poll wrong! subtract one from the "yes" field!

John's fault. he made the choice. he gave himself an excuse and used it.

 

[Meezermom]

Cheating is cheating whether with a prostitute or having an affair. If he wasn't/isn't happy with the way she was/is keeping herself physically, he could have talked to her about it, or they could be in marriage counseling where a third party could help with the feedback. He is married - and if he really valued his marriage, his attention would be on his wife and marriage with no excuses. Also, and perhaps most importantly, he has put his wife's health in jeopardy by exposing her to who knows what.

 

[TC1987]

Not true in this case - they keep their finances very separate.

Not sure how the lack of intimacy came about... When they first started dating they were all over each other. They have a full time maid and John does the weekly grocery shopping (Jane hates the shops in our town), so I don't think it's resentment because she's overworked. Tbh, Jane sounds depressed to me and I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with hormonal changes? She is 44 - is that too young for menopause?

Loved your last statement! John has always been in good shape but has gained a bit of weight right along with Jane. Hmmmm, I'd say looks wise John is about a 7 and Jane is about a 6 when she puts some effort into it. Over weekends she looks a bit like one of those people from www.peopleofwalmart.com

I am pleasantly surprised by the number of people who say it's John's fault. I was sort of expecting "well, she isn't giving him any and he's got neeeeeeeds" to dominate the discussion.

Separate finances: I was referring to how the law looks at income, not how they do. Salaries are joint income. That's how the divorce court will see it. Some people will say that the fact that they have kept finances separate shows some prob or a lack of commitment. But I just see that as the agreement that 2 consenting adults worked out. Might be good for both in this rift, since neither can abscond with the joint account.

"All over each other" in the beginning: That might be the biggest clue. It doesn't necessarily make for a good marriage or a lasting one. There are lots of psychologists and pastors and others who think that "soulmate" relationships based on romance and emotional intensity have the greatest likelihood of ending in burnout. Or, that lust doesn't last. Maybe both John and Jane were burned out and done, but John handled it by seeking fun, and Jane handled it by tuning out. Only they know. Maybe both would be happier married to someone else. I had some relatives: Her 1st husband died from diabetes back in the day, her 2nd marriage (on the rebound) was to a guy who married her for her money, but she and her 3rd husband were supremely happy as a couple. His first wife had died in an accident. 3rd marriage for her, 2nd for him, both very happy.

 

[TC1987]

Any chance she's gay? If I was going to Europe for a month with my husband I'd be looking forward to a lot of "holiday sex." The fact she's dreading intimacy during a vacation is a huge red flag for me.

As to the cheating ... I'd be livid. Was she refusing counseling BEFORE the cheating? Because here's the deal ... they had problems BEFORE that.

And I don't even know what to think about a) not wanting divorce b) refusing counseling c) telling him to "fix it"? Talk about sticking your head in the sand DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL. Blah blah blah you can't see me if my head's under the covers. Yikes! She sounds very immature and he sounds like an a$$. (But at least an a$$ who is TRYING SOMETHING.)

Could John be abusive? Just asking, here. But maybe John has been isolating and mistreating Jane and she can't get up the gumption or is afraid of him. Maybe John is a 9 1/2 Weeks kind of perve or narcissist who only likes something new and /or kinky and the pros give him that kind of thrill. Maybe Jane still loves the guy but he is discarding her for something that feeds his narcissistic needs?

 

[junebug17]

He definitely cheated, and the fact that he thinks he was justified says a lot about his character, and I wouldn't want to be married to someone like that. It would change how I feel towards my husband and the marriage would be over. John should have discussed the problem with his wife. Now he can turn it back on her and make it her fault - how convenient. And disgusting.

There are a lot of reasons someone might not want to have sex - depression, low self-esteem, hormonal imbalance/perimenopause, problems with husband (non-sexual), anxiety etc. He should have been trying to find out what was going on with his wife instead of going to prostitutes. Now he doesn't want to admit he was wrong, and she doesn't seem to want to work on the marriage (which I can understand, TBH). Maybe she's been miserable in her marriage for a while and wants it to end, who knows. Sounds like their relationship is at a stalemate and I don't hold out much hope for this couple.

 

[aljdewey]

They both suck. Both have issues. Bottom line is he cheated, and it's not her FAULT that he cheated, as he is the master of his own decisions. But she IS responsible as well for their marriage being unhealthy.

I think what people can forget is that if you ask your spouse to forsake all others, then it is important that you are actively intimate with your spouse OR addressing the issue as best you can. You can't stick your head in the sand and expect the other person to be happy dealing with it.

1000% agree.

 

[Maria D]

... They have had sex three times this year.

John's argument is that he wasn't being emotionally unfaithful - it was just sex. He feels that if he was getting it at home he wouldn't need to look elsewhere. Other than the lack of intimacy, he feels they have a very good marriage and still finds Jane very attractive.

Jane feels that he was being unfaithful. She has moved into the spare room. She says she doesn't want a divorce. She refuses to go for counselling.

...?

This part makes it sound like John would like to be intimate with Jane (thinks he has a good marriage, still finds her attractive even though she's turned into a PersonOfWalmart) but Jane doesn't want to get it on with him or anyone else. Maybe Jane is depressed? Based on the fact that her reaction is to stay married (even though there are no "children's sakes" for which to bother), but move into the spare room and NOT work on the marriage, I think she's secretly RELIEVED. Thanks to John's so clearly in the wrong behavior, she can eliminate any pressure imposed by him or herself to have an intimate relationship. She's now got an excuse for her behavior (not putting out) and, since she's not going anywhere, doesn't have to face the fears associated with starting all over.

It's only a matter of time before John, through therapy, figures out that he will be happier with someone with whom he can have a "very good marriage" that includes sex! Jane may not want a divorce but John will eventually make the decision for them both. Of course he's the one at fault, but he didn't break up this marriage. It was already broken.

My husband travels to Asia frequently. If I found out he paid for sex, even once while drunk and on a dare, I know I would eventually divorce him. Maybe not immediately; I'd certainly try to work it out. But deep down I know that my feelings would go from hurt to anger to outright contempt because I would lose the immense respect I have for him. Paying for sex is just soooooo icky to me on so many levels. Yep, I think my marriage could survive my husband having an affair easier than my husband paying a prostitute.

 

[Trekkie]

Wow, this thread ran away with me, sorry!

... They have had sex three times this year.

John's argument is that he wasn't being emotionally unfaithful - it was just sex. He feels that if he was getting it at home he wouldn't need to look elsewhere. Other than the lack of intimacy, he feels they have a very good marriage and still finds Jane very attractive.

Jane feels that he was being unfaithful. She has moved into the spare room. She says she doesn't want a divorce. She refuses to go for counselling.

...?

This part makes it sound like John would like to be intimate with Jane (thinks he has a good marriage, still finds her attractive even though she's turned into a PersonOfWalmart) but Jane doesn't want to get it on with him or anyone else. Maybe Jane is depressed? Based on the fact that her reaction is to stay married (even though there are no "children's sakes" for which to bother), but move into the spare room and NOT work on the marriage, I think she's secretly RELIEVED. Thanks to John's so clearly in the wrong behavior, she can eliminate any pressure imposed by him or herself to have an intimate relationship. She's now got an excuse for her behavior (not putting out) and, since she's not going anywhere, doesn't have to face the fears associated with starting all over.

It's only a matter of time before John, through therapy, figures out that he will be happier with someone with whom he can have a "very good marriage" that includes sex! Jane may not want a divorce but John will eventually make the decision for them both. Of course he's the one at fault, but he didn't break up this marriage. It was already broken.

My husband travels to Asia frequently. If I found out he paid for sex, even once while drunk and on a dare, I know I would eventually divorce him. Maybe not immediately; I'd certainly try to work it out. But deep down I know that my feelings would go from hurt to anger to outright contempt because I would lose the immense respect I have for him. Paying for sex is just soooooo icky to me on so many levels. Yep, I think my marriage could survive my husband having an affair easier than my husband paying a prostitute.

John still loves Jane despite her looking like a PersonOfWalmart and wants to be intimate with her - she doesn't want to be intimate with him. Over the years he has spoken to her about needing more intimacy (not just sexual intimacy) but she brushes it off. I do think she is depressed but when her GP tried to talk to her about this and perimenopause she refused to talk to him about it. She hasn't been back since.

I guess my take on this is that he's an DB, she picks up on that vibe, and subsequently lacks the desire to be intimate with him. I guess with the limited amount of information, it's pure speculation on my part, but it stems from the fact that I think poorly of men who think it's okay to pay for sex.

John's not really a DB. If you met him in person you'd never suspect this - he's nice, well dressed, well educated, smart, witty, middle class guy. You'd probably wonder what he's doing married to Jane (we all do) and assume she has hidden qualities only he sees but he's definitely not abusive. If anything, I consider Jane to be emotionally abusive for withholding affection (and a host of other things I can't really go into).

Oh, John is full of bull$hit.

Jane is retreating, and needs to deal with the problem, not just move to the guest room. John is the problem. Boot his horny butt out of there, and find someone who loves her unconditionally. It's his house - he bought it before they married. That's what love is. Not this line of crap the John is dishing out.

There is no such thing as a person "letting themselves go". You love the inside, not the outside. Those wrinkled, bald, toothless, old people that are married 50 years of more, do they all look like they've "let themselves go"? Time wrestles all vanity away, wether you want it to or not. If someone truly loves you they won't notice.

Sorry - that was me saying she's let herself go. John has never said this and still finds Jane attractive (although quite frankly, I don't know why).

I think what people can forget is that if you ask your spouse to forsake all others, then it is important that you are actively intimate with your spouse OR addressing the issue as best you can. You can't stick your head in the sand and expect the other person to be happy dealing with it.

I'll be honest...
John is in the wrong, but Jane is not innocent, either.

Men think differently than women do. Their needs are different.
If you reject your husband repeatedly, don't take care of yourself, and have the attitude she has (I doubt her refusal to do anything to salvage the marriage started there), then don't be shocked if crap like this happens.

Before anyone bites my head off, I know every situation is different.

If the roles were reversed, I think some people would actually feel for Jane.. that she was being neglected, and that she needed someone to connect with, blah blah...

If Jane doesn't want to get a divorce, she needs to be involved in the repair. Period.

So true TGal and Nyc2chigal!

Nyc2chigal - what you said is exactly the way you feel about it.

Oh, and regarding STDs, as Dr Gregory House once said, you don't get STDs from hookers, you get them from people you trust. Research seems to support this. My years of volunteering and working for Aids organisations have taught me that prostitutes insist on using protection but that girl you husband picked up at the bar last week might not...

John has been back to his therapist a couple of times - Jane still refuses to go.

To be honest, the way John got caught (I won't go into specifics) was so stupid that I think he wanted to get caught, just to force the issue out into the open. I wouldn't be surprised if he asks her to move out of the house and starts moving towards divorce.

 

[momhappy]

^Sorry, but if you're sleeping with prostitutes while you're married, you are a douche bag in my book. I don't care how nicely dressed, nice, well-educated, smart, witty, or what class - his actions demonstrate certain characteristics that imply (to me anyways) that he's not the man you think he is. If he wasn't getting sex at home, he should have addressed it with his wife - not by having sex with random strangers that put him and his wife at risk.

 

[Circe]

Trekkie, it sounds like John's your friend, but Jane isn't, maybe?

I have guy friends whose company I enjoy. I would counsel any lady friend who expressed interest in any of them to RUN in the other direction. They're nice, they're smart, they're witty - they don't even visit sex workers, as far as I'm aware! - but they offload the responsibility in their relationships so everything is always the other person's fault. They're exhausting.

You say John got caught in a dumb way that indicates that he wanted the issue in the open. That ... sounds really passive-aggressive. Everything about him does, frankly. I'm glad he's in therapy, because the whole I-went-to-a-hooker-instead-of-talking-to-my-wife and then the I-set-myself-up-to-get-caught-instead-of-talking-to-her-again thing suggests a non-confrontational pattern that can't be good for anybody. I'll join the chorus of people hoping Jane goes, too, because she does sound depressed.

But call me a vociferous opponent of the idea that Jane's at fault because she stopped gussying herself up and putting out. And I was in a relationship with somebody who rejected me about 70% of the time because of a low libido and some childhood trauma. I was with him for 7 years. I never cheated. I begged him to get counseling and I had waaaaaaaaaay too many talks about it, and finally I had to break up with him.

I would have been happier if I'd done it sooner, frankly. But while I probably lost about five years, at least my way I came out of it without being a victim-blaming douche ... because that's what it comes down to when somebody cheats on a depressed or emotionally damaged partner before blaming their own inability to be honest on their depressed partner. Blech.

 

[movie zombie]

^Sorry, but if you're sleeping with prostitutes while you're married, you are a douche bag in my book. I don't care how nicely dressed, nice, well-educated, smart, witty, or what class - his actions demonstrate certain characteristics that imply (to me anyways) that he's not the man you think he is. If he wasn't getting sex at home, he should have addressed it with his wife - not by having sex with random strangers that put him and his wife at risk.

sums it up.

 

[Trekkie]

Trekkie, it sounds like John's your friend, but Jane isn't, maybe?

I have guy friends whose company I enjoy. I would counsel any lady friend who expressed interest in any of them to RUN in the other direction. They're nice, they're smart, they're witty - they don't even visit sex workers, as far as I'm aware! - but they offload the responsibility in their relationships so everything is always the other person's fault. They're exhausting.

You say John got caught in a dumb way that indicates that he wanted the issue in the open. That ... sounds really passive-aggressive. Everything about him does, frankly. I'm glad he's in therapy, because the whole I-went-to-a-hooker-instead-of-talking-to-my-wife and then the I-set-myself-up-to-get-caught-instead-of-talking-to-her-again thing suggests a non-confrontational pattern that can't be good for anybody. I'll join the chorus of people hoping Jane goes, too, because she does sound depressed.

But call me a vociferous opponent of the idea that Jane's at fault because she stopped gussying herself up and putting out. And I was in a relationship with somebody who rejected me about 70% of the time because of a low libido and some childhood trauma. I was with him for 7 years. I never cheated. I begged him to get counseling and I had waaaaaaaaaay too many talks about it, and finally I had to break up with him.

I would have been happier if I'd done it sooner, frankly. But while I probably lost about five years, at least my way I came out of it without being a victim-blaming douche ... because that's what it comes down to when somebody cheats on a depressed or emotionally damaged partner before blaming their own inability to be honest on their depressed partner. Blech.

John actually started off as my husband's friend but yes, I am closer to John than I am to Jane. Not because I haven't tried to be her friend, but, well... It's difficult. For instance, whenever they come over to dinner, she sits in the lounge and watches tv, loudly complaining about us being too cheap or too poor to get cable and how we "force" her to watch "the welfare channels". Not once or twice, all the effing time. Seriously. She complained about us having a small wedding and said that we were being "offensive" and "cheap" (yup, she used those words) and practically invited herself to the wedding, talking about how she didn't want to get a new outfit for our wedding (er, we didn't ask her to, in fact, we hadn't even invited her to the wedding). This carried on for some time and it clearly made John uncomfortable, so we decided to invite them to our wedding, at which point she said that at least she wouldn't need to make an effort with an outfit "because it's just a morning wedding". They RSVPed yes and two days before the wedding she sent me a text saying they weren't coming after all. That's it. No sorry, no apology for messing up our seating plan and our catering, no explanation, nothing. When I tried to call her - hell, I was worried that something might have happened - she just didn't answer her phone. Ugh, so many stories I could tell. This woman gets up my effing nose.

Do I feel sorry for John? Yes. I do. Do I think he could have handled it better? Absolutely. Do I think it's Jane's fault? This might get me flamed, but yes, I do think it's at least partly her fault.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's normal to have sex just three times in a 12 month period. Maybe it's acceptable if both partners have low libidos, but if you have a low libido and your partner doesn't is it really fair to expect your partner to suffer along with you?

Anyway, John just left my office and he was literally in tears - Jane is still refusing to even consider couples therapy. The poor man is at his wits end. He says he doesn't know what to do - talking doesn't help, arguing doesn't help, and now it seems therapy isn't helping either. We (my husband and I) are encouraging him to continue individual therapy and we're hoping that it might give him some much needed clarity.

Thanks very much to everyone who shared their thoughts - it has given me a new perspective on this.

 

[momhappy]

^The poor man????? He's a poor man because he chose to sleep with prostitutes and now his wife won't seek couples therapy??? Interesting.

 

[junebug17]

I don't know Trekkie, you know these people so obviously you're going to be influenced by your feelings towards them - sounds like you don't like Jane very much - but I'm having a tough time feeling sympathy for this guy.

If you had written about their relationship before he went to a prostitute? Yeah, I would have had some sympathy - you've said he's talked about this with his wife in the past and she is apparently unconcerned about his unhappiness - yes, that's a problem for sure. And yes, having sex 3 times a year obviously isn't enough for him, another problem and I would have felt badly for him. But handling it the way he did just negates all of that for me.

And the bottom line is Jane is who she is - she doesn't have to go to therapy and she doesn't have to change if she doesn't want to. It can be argued that she should, for the sake of her marriage, but nobody can force her to do anything. So it's up to John to accept that and decide how he's going to proceed.

Honestly, based on my above comments divorce is probably the best thing for this couple - John can find someone he's more compatible with and Jane can do the same, I guess. If she even wants to be in a relationship right now. I'm increasingly getting the feeling that Jane doesn't want to be in this marriage anyway and might just want to be on her own.

What a mess...I hope they both get to a better place in their lives.

 

[gem_anemone]

Is sleeping with prostitutes when married cheating? Yes.

Is it OK to go behind your partner's back and sleep with other people if you are not getting any at home? No.

Is it OK to only sleep with your husband 3 times in 12 months? Depends. I don't agree with it in most cases. I think someone else summed it up quite nicely when stating that it's wrong to take your spouse off of the market for sex and then to also not have sex with them. Now there are exceptions to this IMO including medical conditions (i.e. depression), however, if there are issues then they need to be worked out within the marriage...for example, finding other means of satisfaction that are OK with both partners, not going behind the back of one or the other, being kind and supportive of one another during rough times etc. To do anything else is to be a bad spouse.

Not that this makes it OK for John to do what he did, but IMO for Jane to be married to a man younger than her (forgive me if I am remembering this wrong) I think it is plain stupid to let herself go and withhold sex. What the heck did she think would happen? I kind of agree with the PP who said that Jane must be happy now that she can still be with John, have a valid excuse to not have to sleep with him ever again, and go about her life as she wants (sexless marriage). Jane seems like she has changed a lot from when they first got together and John is likely not going to be happy in staying with someone who is different than the woman he married. If I were John I wouldn't bother with someone that didn't want counceling and I would leave her. That said, I also think Jane should leave John. I do not feel the least bit sorry for John. He dug his own grave. If I were Jane I would never, ever be able to look at John in the face ever again. Prostitute sex is a low as it gets. He should have at least had the decency to hook up with someone with that actually likes him rather than to PAY for sex. Disgusting.

 

[JulieN]

Unfortunately, at this point there is nothing to do but divorce. he lost his moral high ground, and she doesn't care enough to go to a doctor or marriage counselor. She's happy being a personOfWalmart and making him miserable. Put out or get out.

 

[House Cat]

I'm kind of put off by the "what did she expect" comments. While I do not agree with any of Jane's behavior. I think what she should have expected was divorce, not a husband who had sex with prostitutes.

Frankly, I am disgusted by the level of entitlement in both people. This is definitely not a marriage where both people were putting in 100%. This was a starved union where neither party was willing to give a thing.

 

[movie zombie]

the more I think about this and read this thread the more I think John is out of line in talking to Trekkie re all these details.
and I think Trekkie may want to reconsider her roll in listening.
perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the situation and just remove herself from the drama.

the woman does sound like a real piece of work but at the end of the day it is THEIR marriage and THEIR problem.
John has a counselor.
he needs to utilize that resource and quit making people privy to his personal business.

and while he may have some legit complaints, he may not be the great lover he thinks he is and she may have some pre- or peri-menopausal things going on that make sex unpleasant.

regardless, it is their business. he's talking about very personal aspects of his marriage to someone that already doesn't like his spouse.......makes me question his motivation.

 

[missy]

the more I think about this and read this thread the more I think John is out of line in talking to Trekkie re all these details.
and I think Trekkie may want to reconsider her roll in listening.
perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the situation and just remove herself from the drama.

the woman does sound like a real piece of work but at the end of the day it is THEIR marriage and THEIR problem.
John has a counselor.
he needs to utilize that resource and quit making people privy to his personal business.

and while he may have some legit complaints, he may not be the great lover he thinks he is and she may have some pre- or peri-menopausal things going on that make sex unpleasant.

regardless, it is their business. he's talking about very personal aspects of his marriage to someone that already doesn't like his spouse.......makes me question his motivation.

No surprise he's talking to someone else about these very personal details. He has little respect for Jane which he has already proven by cheating on her so talking about it isn't a surprise. No respect for his wife.

 

[momhappy]

^^Yup, which all goes back to the douche bag comments that I made earlier. John has successfully manipulated this whole thing and he's made it out to look like he is the victim. He's told his wife that he wasn't cheating and that it was all her fault that he has been "forced" to sleep prostitutes. He's also manipulated his friends (OP and her husband) in my opinion.
There are typically reasons why wives (or husbands) stop having sex with their spouses and rather than try to figure that out, John chose to sleep with other women (for money). I'm certainly not saying that Jane has no blame in this - she does, but that's a separate issue and should have been addressed accordingly. If you don't have sex, you either address it or divorce. You don't sleep with hookers and then blame it on your wife. I also agree that he's sharing too much private stuff that should be kept between he and his wife, but again, I would question his character & integrity anyways.

 

[luv2sparkle]

Look. Your wife is not being a good partner? Divorce her. Don't cheat.

If your wife is refusing to go to counseling or do what it takes to make the marriage work for both of you. The solution is divorce. And then you can have all the prostitutes you want.

But don't cheat. Put on your big boy pants, face the problem. And if your wife is not being the partner you need, get out of the marriage. No sex form your wife does not equal she is asking to be cheated on. Two wrongs do not make a right.

And yes, going to a prostitute or any woman for sex that is not your wife is cheating. Emotionally or otherwise makes no difference. That was YOUR decision. And it was wrong. She didn't MAKE YOU cheat. You did that yourself. Regardless of what she did, you need to own up to your own actions. Just has she has to own up to her part in the marriage failing. But don't blame her for what was your own conscious decision to cheat.

This. Totally.

 

[LaraOnline]

Maybe John has treated Jane as less than an equal all along, and that's why she isn't intimate with him anymore. Some men think that it's okay to ignore a wife and leave her at home with the housework or whatever and just go off and have fun and excitement without her.

I agree with your entire post and I agree with these two sentiments exactly. Tbh I sometimes wonder if most men don't secretly or not-so-secretly harbour feelings of superiority over women.

By all measures, my husband would be seen as a 'nice guy'. But scratch the surface and there are issues.
The born-to-rule attitude runs very very deep in male culture.
I don 't necessarily blame men - it's hard to hand over power willingly is it not?
But it is also very difficult to call them to account. Culturally I mean.
I mean, even Hollywood films cast 20 year old women to play much older characters, or opposite much older love interests.
There is do much cultural input putting women in the position of the less worthy, the lesser intelligence.

 

[LaraOnline]

^The poor man????? He's a poor man because he chose to sleep with prostitutes and now his wife won't seek couples therapy??? Interesting.

Oh I dunno. She sounds like a douche from Trkkie's personal experience of her. Although her inappropriate comments could just be her style - I know a woman who oversteps boundaries like that and she thinks she is being funny / interacting properly.

And whether a man would pick up on any of these behavioural traits is another thing entirely.

John sounds like a bit of a ditherer who actually likes his wife to a degree and is kind of stuck in the middle.

Personally though, I could run a mile from a guy who has slept with prostitutes. Don't want those karmic connections!!

 

[LaraOnline]

John still loves Jane despite her looking like a PersonOfWalmart and wants to be intimate with her - she doesn't want to be intimate with him. Over the years he has spoken to her about needing more intimacy (not just sexual intimacy) but she brushes it off. I do think she is depressed but when her GP tried to talk to her about this and perimenopause she refused to talk to him about it. She hasn't been back since.

John's not really a DB. If you met him in person you'd never suspect this - he's nice, well dressed, well educated, smart, witty, middle class guy. You'd probably wonder what he's doing married to Jane (we all do) and assume she has hidden qualities only he sees but he's definitely not abusive. If anything, I consider Jane to be emotionally abusive for withholding affection (and a host of other things I can't really go into).


To be honest, the way John got caught (I won't go into specifics) was so stupid that I think he wanted to get caught, just to force the issue out into the open. I wouldn't be surprised if he asks her to move out of the house and starts moving towards divorce.

Tbh you seem to be doing a lot of talking for John and I have found from personal experience that men are often very unreliable witnesses when it comes to the specifics of interpersonal relationships.
My husband thinks nothing of conducting a complete character assassination of me just to win an argument and to be perfectly honest there is sometimes only the merest whiff of reality when it comes to his presentation of the facts *sigh*.
I am often floored by the lengths he will go to in positioning himself in the better light.
In fact, it is quite mind bending in terms of the intensity of purpose.
When I speak candidly to my friends, they speak of similar experiences.
And yet he is definitely a 'good guy'. Such is the sense of entitlement that comes with being male.

Also, I don't like men who throw women out of their homes, especially if that woman has been ironing his jocks and cooking his meals for a decade. She has given up opportunities to better herself, so she can wash jocks. It is not acceptable to treat her like a dismissed servant.

 

[arkieb1]

Maybe they are both douche bags. I don't believe the guy is a decent person at all because lets face it normal people try and address their issues and go to counselling etc before they run off to prostitutes and then blame the other person. But lets just say considering we don't know all the facts that John attempted many times to get her or both of them help and she refused. Lets say she sat on her bum watching cable all day and dislikes John enough that she has no sexual interest in him whatsoever and makes him feel like crap when she even bothers. And lets just say she is with him simply because of the financial lifestyle he provides for her.

I want to make clear that I don't condone John's actions, he is a liar, a cheat and a whole lot more. But he is now in therapy and she isn't. That speaks volumes.

I think if he is obviously that unhappy that he needs to go to prostitutes and she doesn't want any intimacy with him any more, hopefully a good counsellor will show him what he did wrong and help him man up and see that. With self reflection maybe he will figure out while he loves Jane, it might be better to move on to a healthy relationship that meets everyone's needs including his own, without having to lie and cheat to go about it.

I have wondered again on that point of exaggeration in men if he does make out she is putting out less than she really is to justify his actions, I know you said you think he is not lying, but you don't like the woman so perhaps that is colouring your view of the situation.

 

[Trekkie]

John still loves Jane despite her looking like a PersonOfWalmart and wants to be intimate with her - she doesn't want to be intimate with him. Over the years he has spoken to her about needing more intimacy (not just sexual intimacy) but she brushes it off. I do think she is depressed but when her GP tried to talk to her about this and perimenopause she refused to talk to him about it. She hasn't been back since.

John's not really a DB. If you met him in person you'd never suspect this - he's nice, well dressed, well educated, smart, witty, middle class guy. You'd probably wonder what he's doing married to Jane (we all do) and assume she has hidden qualities only he sees but he's definitely not abusive. If anything, I consider Jane to be emotionally abusive for withholding affection (and a host of other things I can't really go into).


To be honest, the way John got caught (I won't go into specifics) was so stupid that I think he wanted to get caught, just to force the issue out into the open. I wouldn't be surprised if he asks her to move out of the house and starts moving towards divorce.

Tbh you seem to be doing a lot of talking for John and I have found from personal experience that men are often very unreliable witnesses when it comes to the specifics of interpersonal relationships.
My husband thinks nothing of conducting a complete character assassination of me just to win an argument and to be perfectly honest there is sometimes only the merest whiff of reality when it comes to his presentation of the facts *sigh*.
I am often floored by the lengths he will go to in positioning himself in the better light.
In fact, it is quite mind bending in terms of the intensity of purpose.
When I speak candidly to my friends, they speak of similar experiences.
And yet he is definitely a 'good guy'. Such is the sense of entitlement that comes with being male.

Also, I don't like men who throw women out of their homes, especially if that woman has been ironing his jocks and cooking his meals for a decade. She has given up opportunities to better herself, so she can wash jocks. It is not acceptable to treat her like a dismissed servant.

Hi LaraOnline

Not really talking for him, just repeating what he has said. He has been spending a lot of time in our house since this happened, mostly just sitting on our couch watching sport with my husband. Occasionally they have a DMC but I just listen, I don't say anything much.

The house they live in is his outright - he bought it with his earnings from his sports career before they even met. They had a prenup at her insistence (she used to joke about this, saying it proves she didn't marry him for his money) because John has significant earnings from his previous career as a professional sportsman.

I don't quite know what you mean by her giving up opportunities to better herself to wash jocks - I can only assume you mean generally? I disapprove of men doing this too (and this is probably the major reason why I would never be a stay at home mother) but it's definitely not the case here. They both have great careers and earn quite a bit. They have a full time maid so it's not as if she's some poor little put upon housewife who has cooked and cleaned for him for decades and now he's kicking her out of her house to move in some bimbo.

But thank you for your perspective - I'm sure that if she had been a housewife or even just, I don't know, a nicer person, in general, I would've been a bit more sympathetic towards her in general.

I am struck by the fact that only women have responded to this thread and it makes me wonder how the men feel? Perhaps their silence is in itself telling?

 

[momhappy]

^The poor man????? He's a poor man because he chose to sleep with prostitutes and now his wife won't seek couples therapy??? Interesting.

Oh I dunno. She sounds like a douche from Trkkie's personal experience of her. Although her inappropriate comments could just be her style - I know a woman who oversteps boundaries like that and she thinks she is being funny / interacting properly.

And whether a man would pick up on any of these behavioural traits is another thing entirely.

John sounds like a bit of a ditherer who actually likes his wife to a degree and is kind of stuck in the middle.

Personally though, I could run a mile from a guy who has slept with prostitutes. Don't want those karmic connections!!

Yes, clearly OP has demonstrated that Jane has issues too and I agree with that. The lack of sex is definitely a shared blame. It was also pretty clear from OPs posts, that she doesn't care for Jane all that much, which affects her perception of the events between John and Jane (in John's favor). Of course, John knows this, so he uses it to his advantage in playing his woe-is-me-card and successfully earning sympathy from his friends. To be honest, the position that Jane has been put in, really bothers me. Again, she shares blame for the marital problems, but to be given blame for the extremely bad choices her husband has made, is incredibly unfair and I'm not at all surprised that she doesn't want to "work it out" with therapy. John has disrespected in her ways that she could probably never recover from (he's cheated on her, he's placed the blame on her, he's shared personal details of the accounts to his/their friends, and who knows what else). I'm fairly disgusted with the fact that some people think it's okay to use prostitutes if your wife doesn't put out and worse yet, to blame her (the wife) for it. All couples go through problems/issues, but that doesn't mean that you get a free pass to make poor choices.