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Combining Assets

alli_esq

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
909
I decided that this is such a long question, I'm going to break it up into two parts in here, and then add a second post with my other question since it's a little different than these two. I would be so so happy to get some advice from people who have been married for longer than I have, though--this is so complicated and is a very emotional issue for DH and myself...and I just would love to hear what y'all have to say about it:

1. Being independent people and not super young when we got married (I'm 29 and he's 33), DH and I have always had our individual accounts, paid our individual bills and saved in our individual accounts. Meanwhile, we have lived together for over 3 years and split 50-50 ALL of our joint expenses during that time (even during periods when I was a student and then again when I was unemployed/employed part-time).

However, the only way that I have found for us to make sure that we are splitting rent, food expenses, bills for the apartment, etc. (since DH has always made more than I have since we got together, and I have many tens of thousands of dollars more than he does in student loans) has been to literally keep a running tally of what we "owe" each other.

This is effective in assuring us that we are splitting the bills 50-50, but it is very time consuming and rather unpleasant for me. However, because we have a small budget and my discretionary income is very limited, what with all my responsibilities to my student loans (I make at least $800-$1,000 less than he does every month, and I owe at least $800 more in student loans than he does each month--neither of us has credit card debt), I don't see any other way for this to work. I keep track of every dime I spend, whereas DH just gets a general idea of what he spends and doesn't stress about it, since he is contributing both to his 401(k) and his savings account each month. If we were to both contribute the same amount to a joint checking account from which we paid rent, utilities, groceries, restaurant, etc. expenses for when we're together, I would probably be without any extra money for myself to do other things, and I would constantly be afraid that we were going over our budget, since DH doesn't balance a checkbook at all and doesn't keep receipts.

So, the first issue I have is that I don't know how to combine our income in such a way that I wouldn't have to constantly be adding and subtracting what we "owe" one another, but at the same time, I do not want to have to be concerned that we are spending more than we have budgeted. As it is, I am constantly checking my accounts and balancing my checkbook, making sure that I know exactly how much I have to spend on discretionary things like going out to dinner, to movies, etc., and if I did not have a strong handle on that, I am certain I would occasionally go over my budget, which is something I never (or at least VERY rarely) do now. Any ideas?

2. We have a joint savings account, but that has only basically been for wedding gifts and this last year's tax refund. DH is in a position to save each month, but he puts the money he saves into his separate savings account. I, on the other hand, have not been in a position to save anything (not for retirement, not for anything really) in about a year due to un- and under-employment. Now that I am more regularly employed, however, I am trying to catch up with my student loans, and because of that, I have VERY little room in my budget for anything discretionary, and I don't anticipate being able to save anything at all until the winter.

DH has a lot of emotional issues tied to money (short version: his parents and grandmother threw him out of their homes when he got out of college and while he always worked multiple jobs at a time, because he had accumulated so much student debt, he legitimately feared homelessness for many years--really, until his late 20s when he got the job he has now), and I know he does not feel comfortable being the only one saving between us, and putting that money into a joint account. I certainly don't want to have to convince him that that is the "right" thing to do if he doesn't feel comfortable with it.

I am wondering--although I know most of you out there who are married have situations where you feel that all of your and your SO's income is both of yours...is this something that I can introduce into our relationship reasonably at a time when I am unable to save and he is saving all the money between us? I do not want to spend his money, and I intend to remain solely responsible for my own student debt (as I made the decision to accumulate that debt before I met him), but having grown up in a house where all income was joint income (i.e. my dad worked and my mom didn't), I feel that until we combine finances, DH are still just sort of "playing house" and aren't MARRIED in the conventional way I have always had in my mind. What would you do?
 

TooPatient

Ideal_Rock
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Joined
Sep 1, 2009
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9,984
FI and I have been living together for over 4 years. I don't think there is any "right" answer that fits every situation.

I saw a suggestion somewhere that might make a lot of sense in your case:

Figure out what you each make. Determine what percentage of the household income yours is and his is. (if he makes $6,000/month and you make $4,000/month -- he is 60%, you are 40%). He pays his percent (in ex. case 60%) and you pay yours (40%) of all joint bills. To do this, you could figure out the total monthly bills and each put your percentage of that into a joint account for bill paying.

You'd each still pay for your individual expenses (like your student loans) and save individually.

You could also consider a joint savings account where you each contribute some amount to each month (following the example, he'd contribute 60%, you'd contribute 40%)



ETA: This isn't exactly how we do stuff, but we have a similar sort of system. I make significantly less than FI does (about 25% what he does) and I know that I could never manage paying 50-50 -- it would literally take all of my paycheck (and then some) and leave nothing for my tuition, books, school supplies, etc.
I can understand why he is so concerned about money and I understand your feelings of wanting to pay 50-50 (I'd love to if I could and it still bugs me sometimes that I can't) but you both need to be able to pay your loans and other personal expenses.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
31,763
If you two will be together forever, then combine assets.
If not, don't.

We all hope the relationship lasts till death but unfortunately we are not psychic.

It is very uncomfortable to discuss the elephant in the room ... "What if we break up?"
 

luckynumber

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
665
I'm not married but we will combine our finances when we do.

If one of us becomes unemployed, the other will pick up more of the expenses and vice versa. To me, marriage is for richer or poorer, we are a team. I would expect no less from my SO, and he will get the same back from me.

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation, I don't think it's very fair. Toopatient's suggestion sounds much fairer.
 

Lady_Disdain

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Messages
3,988
alli_esq - I answered your question about gifts before reading this and, now, I think that the gift situation is the least of your financial problems. The money solution in your life don't seem to meet your needs.

FIrst of all, there is a huge difference in income: considering the debt load, we are talking about $1600 a month. This makes the 50% split of expenses unfair. Are you both living at an expense level that is compatible with your income or with his? It sounds like you are over extending yourself while he is very comfortable.

I see marriage as a partnership, where burdens are spread between the partners and each helps the other, whether financially, emotionally or even logistically. His having free income for luxuries while you are struggling doesn't make sense to me and doesn't sound like a good basis for a marriage. I would recommend that you two work a system where both of you contribute to the household expense, pay off debts and save. Perhaps a financial planner could help?

I would also recommend a couple therapist to help work out the money issues between you. I can understand how his background makes it tough for him, but, as adults, we must work to overcome our past to build better relationships and be happier.
 

lucyandroger

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
1,557
Do you and your DH have any joint financial goals (e.g. buying a house, a new car, retiring at a certain age, etc.)? Perhaps if you start working on some joint goals as a team, you and your DH will start to see each other more as one financial unit working together. Just a thought.
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
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25,387
I think you need to do something like TooPatient suggested with the percentages. Also, I doubt he is willing to but
seems like he/you could use some marriage counseling with respect to money. In my eyes you should be a team.
You shouldnt be struggling while he is doing fine and is able to save.
 

Haven

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
13,166
I've seen some things in books and on those shows about getting a handle on personal finance that might work for you.

1. Would it be feasible to create a list of all your fixed, shared monthly expenses? If so, could you then figure out what percentage each of you would cover of these expenses, based on your relative incomes? For example, if your combined fixed, shared monthly expenses are $2,000, and you determine that you should be responsible for 30% and he for 70%, then you could open a join checking account for expenses and each contribute your share every month. You would put in $600, he would put in $1,400, per this example.

THEN, for the little discretionary things, you could look at your monthly budget for those things and each contribute cash to a "going out" jar, or whatever you'd like to call it, each month. If you budget $200 per month, and you use the same contribution percentages as the last example, you could put in $60 a month, he could put in $140, and then you would spend only cash when you're going out or shopping or whatever it is you do with that budgeted money. I've seen people do this by the week instead of the month, by the way.

2. I like the idea to discuss your joint savings goals, and to set an amount for each of you to contribute each month.

However, it would probably be incredibly helpful for you to sit down and set some savings, investment, and debt-paying goals together. I know that you are taking care of your debts on your own, but that needs to be taken into consideration when you determine your other goals, and even if you are contributing different percentages, you should have some shared goals since you are a couple and they will affect the two of you.

To do this, DH and I read several personal finance books together, went through a bunch of blogs, etc. We had some long discussions about what we really want to prioritize and what we need to focus on financially to make that happen, and then we sat down at a computer to write out our goals.

We started the entire thing by creating an Excel file and putting a bunch of different worksheet tabs in it: Budget, Goals, Debt, Assets, Bills, & Spending.
- In the Budget tab we used an Excel budget we found on the ACCC website, it had all of the cells set to add up and subtract, so it's nice. We changed what needed changing for our needs, and then set our budget using that.
- In Goals we used Dave Ramsay's baby steps to structure our plans, and numbered each goal and wrote it in bold font. We keep track of our progress towards each goal by writing in notes when we hit certain milestones, and dating when they were reached.
- In Debt we listed my remaining student loans, their original amount, their current amount, the percentage rates, the minimum monthly payments, and the amount that we are currently paying off each month. We did the same with our mortgage. That's our only debt.
- In Assets we listed all of our investment and retirement accounts, including my state pensions, as well as our yearly contribution goals for each.
- In Bills I wrote the numbers 1 through 31 going down the first column of the page. Then I put a description of each bill next to its due date in the next column, and the monthly amounts for each in the next column. Then, along the top row of the page I wrote each month of the year, and I keep track of what we pay each month. I have a different tab for each year, so they read "Bills 2010" and "Bills 2009" and I only keep the current year and the previous year.
- In Spending I keep track of every single cent we spend. I don't do this all the time, only one to three months a year, and usually when we feel that we are spending more than we need to. That's a real eye opener.

I'm sorry you're having so many issues with money. I can't say I relate at all because my husband and I have considered everything that we own or owe to be our joint property and responsibility since we became serious, so this has never been an issue for us. I know different things work for different couples, but I must say that this approach has made things very easy and nice for us. However, it wasn't anything we ever really discussed, it's just the way we are, and we happen to share this particular outlook.

Good luck. Money can be such a huge issue in a marriage if you disagree, so I think it's great that you're being proactive about figuring this out now.

ETA: I meant to share that just going through the process of talking about money and goals together can be a really good thing. Sometimes a person has fears or hangups related to money that he doesn't even recognize, and simply having the discussion can be enough to assuage those fears.
 

LGK

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,975
I know a good number of couples that do money totally separate like this. I would just approach him and tell him what is bothering you- that you feel like you two are "playing house" and that you'd like to look at combining assets. A number of couples have separate accounts with a certain budget for fun/disrectionary stuff, and a single joint household expenses account (which, IMO, should include your and his student loans both- you are married, so why not?) and then joint savings. That makes sense to me when you have disparate expenses and income- and it shouldn't matter that you aren't able to put as much into the joint accounts at the moment.

You may have to get after him to start saving receipts, etc., or just take it on yourself. Have him save his receipts and pass them on to you- you can then organize and budget for both of you and then tell him what he has to spend that month for fun stuff.

With my husband and I, we combined our households & expenses since 1997 when we moved in together, though we were actually married in 2001. That's what I did- DH is toootallly not interested in bill paying, budgeting, organizing money etc., so I do all the money things for us (wrangle both our receipts, pay all bills for personal and work, do the business books and filing, do our taxes quarterly and yearly, do our deposits for work and for personal etc.). In return for that he tends to do all the stuff like tidying, kittybox cleaning, laundry, dishes, etc., and I cook and scrub things that need scrubbing (he hates doing the toilet & the tub, so I do that).

I know that's a lot of detail there, but you can see that with a marriage, how you divide the workload including money doesn't have to be conventional- it just has to work for the both of you. And you can find ways to contribute that aren't straight up financial, is also my point I guess. I'm not the greatest at financial stuff (I'm disorganized and spacey) but I'm better at it than he is, so that's how we worked it out.

I hope you guys work it out. As it stands, it doesn't look fair for you IMO. You shouldn't have a husband who is fairly financially secure and be left feeling like you're struggling for money every month.
 

NewEnglandLady

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
6,299
tyty, your situation sounds very similar to mine when D and I were dating...especially my early years when I was living on a super tight budget. I would literally add up everything we each spent on joint expenses every month in a spreadsheet and then he would either write me a check at the end of the month or I would write him a check at the end of the month, so it was completely 50/50.

Also, I want to note that D always made more than I did and did not have student loans (I did), however I never personally agreed that it meant he should pay a penny more for joint expenses. I always paid for half of all the rent, bills, vehicles, dog expenses, etc. regardless of how much he made, so combining our money based on income was not an option for me pre-marriage. That is purely a personal choice, but it sounds like you're in the same boat.

Like you, we did end up opening a joint account. Everything joint came out of that account including gas/groceries, but because I've always been good with my checkbook and used to living on a tight budget, the joint account was a science for me. I asked him for a joint account check 1 - 2x per month, always the same amount (unless something like a car repair came up), and I would put the exact same amount in. We've been married for a few years and we actually still pay all of our bills out of this account with the exception of the mortgage, which he now pays on his own.

I will admit that it was very difficult for us to adjust to being married and me no longer contributing the 50%. I feel that those who are more marriage-minded and have the "what's mine is yours" mentality before getting married have an easier transition. I felt guilty about the fact that I made less and had debt, so I really held onto wanting to pay for my fair share. After getting married, it was VERY hard to let D help me pay off my student loans and buy our house with what was "his" money before we were married...it made me insecure.

ETA: I don't know how I missed that you are married! I KNOW how difficult it is to switch from 50/50 to being true financial partners. For me it took a lot of talking about my frustrations/guilt and for him it was mostly him reassuring me that he was happy to help pay off my loans and buy a house if it meant he didn't have to do chores anymore :)
 

Sabine

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
3,445
Dh and I had a similar situation going when we were living together before we were married, and even for a while after we got married and were both making a similar amount of money.

Then I got pregnant and we decided I would be a SAHM. My income went to zero, so this obviously wouldn't work. We REALLY had to combine our finances, but I wanted to do it in a way that didn't leave me feeling guilty for spending 'his' money on stuff just for me.

What works really well for us is this...We have 2 checking and 1 savings accounts. We both have access to all accounts and they are all linked online, but we use 1 checking as his and 1 as mine. I sat down and made a budget for myself for all 'my' bills (car, phone, student loans) and we decided what to do about things like groceries, rent, utilities, etc. Since I have more time and am better at managing money, it was decided that I would be responsible for paying those bills, so they were added to my budget. Dh is still responsible for paying his car and student loans. My budget includes money for gas and also some spending money for random things as well. I came up with a total for how much I need out of each paycheck.

So now, when his paycheck is deposited, I go online, transfer the amount I need for my budget from 'his' checking to 'my' checking, and I also transfer money into savings. What's left is what dh has to spend on his bills and his other daily expenses.

Basically, we don't split bills anymore, but we still each have our own accounts so that we don't have to balance check books as we use debit cards and worry about overdrawing when the other spends, etc. And if unexpected stuff comes up, we can both take stuff out of savings or each others' accounts if necessary.

It helps with gifts, because even though the money is technically all 'his', I try to buy stuff for him out of MY account so out of the money I would normally use for things like hair cuts, lunches out, etc., although sometimes I do have to take money out of savings, but at least I don't have to ask him for it and although he's aware I do it, I don't 'tell' him so I can still surprise him with stuff. I'm much more on top of our budget than he is, honestly he usually has no clue how much money is in his account or our savings.

It really sounds to me like you guys need to at least combine your money in some way, but still keep SOME individuality. I see 3 options that might work for you...
1. He gives you an allotted amount each month to help cover your portion of the bills.
2. Instead of splitting everything evenly, change it up. Maybe you are responsible for paying some of the smaller bills out of your account each month, and he'll be responsible for covering the bigger ones (like rent, etc.). You can each still pay your own student loans, but since you wouldn't be splitting everything else evenly, hopefully it would work out for more money for you each month.
3. Stop thinking of it as his money and your money, deposit BOTH of your paychecks into one savings account each month, then transfer what you each need into individual checking accounts to cover your individual expenses, but pay for joint expenses (like rent) out of the savings.
 

Blackpaw

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,469
Ouch tough situation :o

to be honest, it doesnt sound like your really married to me...i find the level of, i guess 'separateness', you have in your relationship to be rather alien. My SO and i have been dating for coming up to 6 years. When we moved in together (at the 2 and 1/2, 3 year mark) we merged ALL our accounts. And he earned more than i did for two years (double in fact). But by that point we had established this was 'it' and everything became ours.

I guess it just seems to me like this is a part of his life that he's not willing to commit to you, or you're not willing to commit to each other, and i think id find that disconcerting...i think you should talk to him about this, as it seems his idea of marriage and yours diverge a little.

{{{HUGS}}} i hope you feel better about this and work it all out.
 

elrohwen

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
5,542
Before DH and I were married, we had a joint checking account and individual accounts (and credit cards). All bills and household things went on the joint account, but we maintained separate accounts too. You could use this system, and put your student loans on the joint account, since your debt is now his debt.

This is my favorite financial solution if you're not prepared to just combine all of your funds. Personally, for DH and I, combining everything into joint accounts is just easier and less stressful,

I also think you should combine your savings. It's not fair for you to be worried about saving, and not really knowing what your DH is saving. At this point, you're married and you should be saving for joint things, so it should go into one account. You can still have discretionary income, but I think you both need to come to an agreement about how much that is and have the rest go into savings.

eta: I also don't think it's fair to you that you are unable to save for retirement because you have to pay 50% of the living expenses as well as your student loans. How would your husband feel if you guys were 65 years old and he found out you had very little retirement savings, because he was hoarding all of his money for his own savings? That just doesn't sit right with me. He should be taking on some of the burden of the bills so that you are able to save an appropriate amount towards your retirement. You guys got married to be a team, but it doesn't sound like he's ready to be a team-player in financial areas.
 

Octavia

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
2,660
Alli, I don't have time to go into too much detail, but my situation is very similar to yours except that my DH doesn't really have hangups about spending money and doesn't mind paying the household expenses on his own until I start my job. Otherwise, our finances are and always have been pretty separate and I have really had to swallow my pride about being "supported" for the past few months. It made sense to do it that way, rather than taking out more student loans, but neither of us are all that comfortable with it.

Anyway, once I have an income again, we plan to do the percentages thing that TooPatient suggested. I don't think it will be as detailed as Haven's ideas, since we will probably set one monthly amount that includes our fixed and joint discretionary expenses (i.e. rent, phone, food including groceries and eating out together, etc) and contribute in proportion to our incomes, and spend our "own" funds on other stuff. I don't think it's fair to maintain a 50-50 situation where it's causing you a real hardship, and hopefully your DH will come to respect that.
 

luvshinyrocks

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 13, 2010
Messages
34
I would also recommend a couple therapist to help work out the money issues between you. I can understand how his background makes it tough for him, but, as adults, we must work to overcome our past to build better relationships and be happier.

Ditto this. It sounds like your husband needs to come back to earth a bit.

We do something similar to the percentages - we figured out a percentage of our income that goes to joint expenses, and it goes into a joint account. The same percentage applies to both of us, which means that if one of us is making less money that person has to contribute less to the joint account. Joint money is used for living expenses and joint entertainment expenses - eating out, dates, vacations, etc. We also have a joint savings account that we each contribute a fixed amount to each month - even if that amount is really small for one partner at first it's important for each person to feel like the other is contributing, I think.

The percentage that we have left is to spend as we please - mine usually goes to student loans as well, so I feel you on that one :) What we do with our non-joint money is not allowed to be questioned by the other.

My guy was actually more than happy to split everything - including the loans - but I would have felt uncomfortable with that.
 

lizzyann

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
2,435
Hi there! I'm with Kenny on this. To me, marriage = combining incomes for the goal of both of you living comfortably and saving TOGETHER for short and long term goals. I have a friend who is in a similar situation as you who splits everything 50/50 even when he makes considerably more than her. She has told me on occasion that she has no money in her account to pay groceries while he just bought a new luxury car. The weird thing is that she has no problem with the way they do things and often makes excuses for it. Like "oh well he works so hard, I hate to ask him for money" I can't comprehend it really. My hubby has always made more than me when I was working and he has always had no problem with a joint account. We both always know that there is money in there you know? No worries or need to ask the other of a check or what is owed. I am a stay at home mom now so good thing my hubby is ok with a joint account or I'd be on the street!!! LOL!! I'm glad that you have reached out to us PS'ers on this. I think that you and your hubby just need to have a good conversation on this and I bet it will be no problem once discussed formally. You were probably worried about nothing.
 

alli_esq

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
909
Thanks, everyone, for posting. I'm glad I wrote about this, but wow, does it sting to read all of these responses. I have been upset about this for a while now, but reading your responses made me cry. I guess this is a bigger problem than I even thought.

Of course, as is always the case, there is more to this issue than I have already posted--not because I'm hiding anything, but just because y'know, life is complicated and it's hard to get everything down in one shot.

I lost my job last July. I didn't post on here about it because it was a horribly humiliating thing to me--I was in a job where I was extremely unhappy, and I know it was for the best in the long run, as I am thrilled with my current job, but I'm sure you all understand how hard it is on the ol' ego to get canned. The thing is, DH (at that time, he was my FI) knew it would ultimately be a good thing, since that job was negatively affecting me in every single way, but bills are bills and he was angry at me deep down that I got fired. (His anger is something that has come up maybe 2 or 3 times in arguments over the course of the past year.) So, because of the fact that I know he is angry that I didn't make what I should have this past year (even though I was barely making enough to make ends meet BEFORE I lost my job) and because of the fact that I am generally a very independent person, there is the potential for great resentment there--neither of us got into this relationship or marriage to be supported by the other financially, and neither of us makes enough money to support the other in a time of an emergency (though we do have some savings now--separate and joint--in case of an emergency, which I hope to never have to touch, of course).

Also possibly important to note--DH has several friends who are married who do not combine their assets at all, and who live the way we have been (though I doubt anyone is as exact about their accounting as I am), even in cases where one spouse makes much more than the other spouse (even more of a disparity than DH and I have, in fact). So, this arrangement, I guess, is normal in DH's mind.

DH's history with money is definitely an issue, and although we have an appointment with a financial planner in a couple of weeks, and I have never used a financial planner so I don't know exactly what they will tell us, I have doubts that they will give us concrete suggestions on how to combine our money. That's sorta why I came here--for ideas. I don't know how open DH is to any of this, really. We've talked about it a bit, but we (honestly--it's been BOTH of us) always put it off because I haven't had a steady income stream since last July, and since I've had this income stream, it hasn't been the same amount every two weeks, so it's a bit complicated...I figured once I got offered this job permanently (keeping my fingers crossed that I do get an offer!!!) and my income is steady, we would start REALLY trying to combine things, at least to some extent.

Also, my family lives very comfortably financially, whereas DH's parents are incredibly poor. My parents have been very, VERY generous with me and with DH since he came into my life, and DH definitely feels some discomfort with the disparity--and his reaction to that is to act angry and misplace that anger onto me. When he's angry, he tells me that I am spoiled or that I don't value money, or things like that--when in reality, he DEFINITELY doesn't feel that way, because that is absolutely just simply not the case. Yes, my parents have given me a lot, but I appreciate all of it and don't expect any of it--and I'd survive just fine without it...I'm WAY more responsible with money than anyone in my family has ever been. So...yeah, that's a big problem, that he acts out that way. That I fully admit. I don't know how to prevent that from ever happening, since he absolutely 100% refuses to go to therapy (he has had 2 very bad experiences with therapy and has written it off altogether.)

I hope you don't think I'm being defensive--please tell me if you think I am. I just wanted to give some more background. Okay, onto responding to everyone.

Too Patient: Your suggestion is actually something that I brought up to DH a while ago (in around JanuaryI think), and he was at first extremely resistent. So much so that I got incredibly offended and just shut down on the topic. Eventually, without my prodding, he said he'd be more open to it, but at that point, I felt like I had been so hurt by his not wanting to share anything with me that I said we'd just continue doing what we've been doing until I get a permanent job with a normal income stream. I do think this idea makes the most sense--thank you for suggesting it!

kenny: that is simplifying it, isn't it? I suppose there is a fear of that (especially as I am a matrimonial attorney), and I guess maybe that's in the back of his mind whenever we talk about this. Actually, it's not something that we haven't discussed (again, I AM a matrimonial attorney--so it's sort of impossible NOT to talk about the possibility of divorce).

luckynumber: thanks for the sympathy. I know I have no one to blame but myself--I knew DH had emotional issues with combining finances long before we got married, of course, but I was hoping that those feelings would dissipate over time. Maybe they will. Maybe they have already to a certain extent. It's really unclear right now, mostly because I have a great fear (like I said before) that when we get into a fight, he will accuse me of being spoiled or selfish or somehow holding it over my head. I don't know if he will ever feel like it's OUR money, you know? Maybe over time.

Lady Disdain: you make some excellent points. I don't really know what else to say besides thank you for reading and responding so thoughtfully.

lucyandroger: yes, we do have financial goals that we are starting to parse out more distinctly, and we hope that they are something with which the financial planner can help us. The idea, DH says, is that he will certainly contribute more to a down payment when we are ready to purchase a house/apartment/condo/whatever, but until now, he has not been willing to put the money he has been saving into a joint account--he'd rather keep that separate until such time as we buy a place. It says a lot, though, that he's not willing to put money toward a "joint goal" into a joint account though, doesn't it?

tyty: thank you for responding. Neither of us is exactly living high on the hog, and he does not spend money on himself--he's just able to save, whereas I am not.

Haven: I was hoping you would respond. I know you have read a a considerable amount about financial goals for couples, and I appreciate your thoughtful response. Your arrangement with your husband sounds great. I wish my husband was more on board for something like that now.

First, yes, we do have a list of all of our shared and individual expenses, and I keep careful track to make sure everything is paid. Your idea about discretionary stuff is a good one, and I do have a shfting budget for things like that, but my constant concern is that we may occasionally go over that budget, which I can adjust accordingly if I'm kept very well aware of those expenses, but really, as long as I'm keeping SUCH careful track of all of my/our expenses, what difference does it make if our accounts are joint or separate? I'm still driving myself crazy and constantly balancing my checkbook--only now, it's OUR checkbook and I have to worry more about what he's spending when he's not with me, which makes it even more complicated, and gets further away from my goal of constant bookkeeping. Perhaps constant bookkeeping is a necessary evil for someone on such a tight budget like I am, but if that's the case, than I'd sorta rather NOT have joint accounts and let him spend what he's spending on his own without taking on that added responsibility (keeping track of everything HE spends when we're not with one another).

Secondly, like I said, we will be going to a financial planner soon--but I think DH has a problem with putting money he's been saving separately into a joint account if we're not both equally contributing to that account...and if that's the case, then there's no real purpose in having the joint account anyway, since I wouldn't be ABLE to contribute to that account the same way he could.

Is what I'm saying making sense? I'm sorry, I'm a bit fried. Thank you SO much for the budget spreadsheet suggestion--I am a huge spreadsheet person, so I will see if your spreadsheet idea works for us as we go!

Little Grey Kitten: You are so sweet to go into such detail--thank you very much for sharing that with me. I do plan on having a heart to heart with DH about this issue. We have sort of talked about it before, but as I've said, it's never really gotten anywhere, so I have to be prepared when we talk to make sure we talk it all through--if possible.

NEL: Thank you so much for understanding. I guess the big, huge difference between your situation and mine is that my DH is just NOT open to really doing this yet. He is so fearful of being left penniless (though, if anyone is NOT interested in taking anyone else's money, even if we were to--Godforbid--get divorced) you'd think he would understand it would be me. I don't care to make money off of this transaction, but I guess when I'm the one suggesting this and I'm the one with debt, and I'm the one who makes a lot less, and he's just not ready for this...it sounds money-grubbing to him...which is, of course, incredibly insulting. If the positions were reversed and he had more debt and I made more money, I would still want to combine everything.

If my DH was like yours and would reassure me, this would be a completely different situation. It's just not that way--he's just not been on board with this and feels somewhat put upon. Makes me very sad, but I did know what I was getting into, like I said. I just thought it would change as time went on. And again, maybe it will.

Sabine: Your situation seems to make a lot of sense, but again, you have to understand that DH is not on my page quite yet. I don't know that we'll ever be on that same page. At least we generally do agree on what we do spend our (individual) money on, which is a good thing. I hope it will get better for us and we can get closer to making all of our money really OUR money.

blackpaw: I have to say, when I read your response, at first, I DID feel very defensive. My initial reaction was "um, well, I AM married, whether or not you see it that way," and "marriage isn't ALL about money," and "not everyone handles things the way you do." I guess I still feel rather defensive. Anyway, we are working on it. I posted here to get people's ideas and opinions on how they do things--not to be told that I don't seem to people like I have a "real marriage" or not. Clearly I do feel disconcerted. That's why I posted and asked for some advice. Thanks for your sympathy.

Elrohwen: sadly, he knows I have nothing saved for retirement. His feeling on that is the same as his separate savings account--that he's saving "for both of us" even though it's in a separate account. I guess we all know what that means, huh?

Octavia: thanks for understanding--sounds like you really have things figured out.

luvshinyrocks: I am hoping to do that some-joint (based on percentages), some-separate idea. I guess once we have our heart-to-heart about this next week I'll know better how he feels about it at this point.

lizzyann: Thanks for your post. I hope he has changed his mind about some things since last we talked. If not, we need to start talking seriously about how we can compromise.
 

iheartscience

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 1, 2007
Messages
12,111
Have you talked to your husband about this? And if so, what has he said about it? From what you've written it doesn't sound like you've had a real conversation about the issues you're having with being unable to save for retirement or anything else. I would assume he knows how much money you make and how much your bills are, so it seems like he should realize the problem with the current system you two are using.

If you have spoken about this and he doesn't want to combine finances or split things in a more equitable way, I think you have a serious issue on your hands, and should absolutely look into couples counseling. His money hang ups are not only preventing you from saving-they'll probably eventually damage your relationship. I know I would be extremely resentful if I was struggling to save money while my husband put all of his extra income into his own savings account.

My husband and I are in the midst of combining finances fully (we still have separate accounts but do have access to each other's accounts), so I understand that it's a bit of a transition. Buying a house together has definitely helped us see "my" money as "our" money. My husband makes more money than me, and we split our mortgage so that we both pay the same percentage of our incomes instead of splitting it 50/50. Additionally, he pays some bills and I pay others that end up being less each month. We take turns buying groceries and dinners out, too, but he pays for more overall.

I also recently put all of our accounts onto mint.com, and have been budgeting for both of us. Once we get around to getting a joint checking and savings account I'm planning to take over paying all of the bills, too. (My husband can be forgetful about bills and I'm on top of them so it makes more sense for me to pay them.)

The bottom line is that your current system isn't equitable and is harming you financially. (Really both of you, since the only one saving for retirement is him.)

ETA sorry-just your post that you have talked about it. Wow-honestly it kind of blows my mind that he is so unwilling to combine finances. I hope you can work this out.
 

Octavia

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
Messages
2,660
alli_esq said:
Octavia: thanks for understanding--sounds like you really have things figured out.

TBH, I have no idea if that's true or not. It's all hypothetical at this point until my first paycheck rolls in at the end of October/beginning of November and we start trying it out. But it's really, REALLY hard for me right now because I don't want to have to ask DH for money all the time, and he's very resistant to just transferring a portion of his paycheck into our joint checking until I start doing the same. It makes me feel like he doesn't trust me to spend wisely, since I always have to add things up to tell him how much I need. He swears that's not true, but we've fought about it and nothing has changed. So even though we have a plan, who knows how it will function in the execution, yanno?

I'm sorry to hear about your job, but glad that you're out of that horrible situation and that you're doing something you like much better now. Hopefully your current job is treating you well, even if it sounds like it's not as steady as you'd want.

I don't know that I really have any other advice, but I wanted to say that I understand keeping things separate. I think that as time goes on, my DH and I will combine more and more, particularly once we buy a house and have kids. But it will have to be a gradual thing, definitely not an overnight change. Maybe the same will happen for you? Not that it helps much right now...but in the meantime, I think that your hubby will have to realize that it's part of each of your jobs as spouses to support the other one, and while that doesn't necessarily mean unlimited access to every cent the other has, it DOES mean making sure that you're not struggling, miserable, and panicked about how to make things work.
 

elrohwen

Ideal_Rock
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
5,542
Allie, I just want you to know that I really feel for you and I hope you and your husband are able to work something out that you both feel comfortable with and agree on. Your lack of retirement savings really concerns me - especially because investing in a 401(k) (or something similar) often earns far more interest than a simple savings account. And if, god forbid, you do get divorced, you will be in a bad position if all of the savings are in his name and you have no retirement account of your own (unless things are split 50/50 in your state).

Maybe you could remind him that, on your own, you could be living in a much cheaper apartment where you pay what you feel comfortable paying. As it is, you can't totally control your lifestyle since it now involves him, even though paying for that lifestyle is stretching you beyond your means and causing a lot of stress. If he would be willing to split the bills in a percentage appropriate to your income, it would relieve a lot of your stress and allow you to save for retirement.

I lost my job last year and I know how hard it is and how helpless it can make you feel. I think you need to ask your husband for more support in times like that - you are a team now, and if one of you gets knocked down, the other picks up the slack, without resentment. I think the residual anger he feels may be influencing your current situation, so it may be something worth talking about. You feel bad enough about the situation and it's not necessary for him to continue holding it over your head.
 

alli_esq

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
909
I don't have time to respond to everyone right at this second (I will later), but just FYI--our joint expenses are EXTREMELY low. Much lower than our pay-grades. We live meagerly now so that hopefully we will eventually be able to buy a place.

(that sounds pathetic, being 29 and 33 when I know so many of you make more than enough money and have bought houses, etc. at much younger ages. I'm embarrassed to admit that even though we have both always been very good about scrimping and saving, neither of us has ever made enough where we were able to save enough to have a down payment, and we are still several years from being able to do that, at best.)
 

Haven

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
13,166
alli--I'm really sorry that you're so upset over this. I do think it's a good thing that you're confronting the issue, though, and being honest with yourself that something has got to give, ya know? I also don't think you sound defensive at all. You sound frustrated and upset and hurt about your situation, and most importantly, you sound determined to make it better. Even though you're in pain right now, this isn't a bad place to be--you're fixing to make a change for the better. You should be proud of yourself. Definitely do not get down on yourself at all.

I hear you on driving yourself nuts over keeping the checkbook balanced. That's why I love the idea of a cash-only system like the one I suggested. If you know how much you want (or have available) to spend on discretionary things each month, then wouldn't it be easier to pull the cash out of the ATM, pop it into a jar, and say "This is it! When it's gone, it's gone." That way, you don't have to worry about tracking anything because you have already limited yourself by doing the cash-only method. AND, if you truly stick to the cash-only method, it's impossible to go over your budget because once you've used everything you've set aside, it's gone.

I have a good friend who started with a cash-only method not too long ago because she was having a hard time controlling her spending. It's really working for her. She keeps each week's cash in an envelope in her bedside table, and has been really disciplined about only using that cash. I think she puts the entire week's cash into her wallet every Monday because she likes to be able to know exactly what she has left whenever she's out spending something.

As for your DH, it sounds like he really needs some space and time to figure out his relationship with money. My guess is that he loves you very much, and he would feel pretty awful if he knew how his relationship with money and the way that's playing out in your relationship is making you feel. That being said, he probably doesn't even have the ability to see that far right now because it sounds like he has a lot of things to work out regarding money, still. While he isn't likely to be excited about making any huge changes right now, perhaps you could start very small by asking him to help you work out a plan to pay off your student loans, or save a certain amount towards some shared goal, or something. Maybe if you get him to work with you on a little thing that will help ease some of his anxieties about money by showing him that you are making conscious, informed decisions about your money, regardless of how much you earn.

DH and I are on the same page with money right now, but we weren't always. Yes, we've always looked at everything as our money, but he spent many, many years just spending whatever he wanted to spend and not setting goals or tracking anything. I had to start small with him by bringing up little tidbits like "I read that if you pay only one extra mortgage payment per year that can cut off seven years of repayment. Isn't that amazing?" It was like he had to get used to talking about financial planning and looking ahead and setting goals now that we would have to work on for years and years.

I really feel for you, alli. I was raised in a very unstable financial environment, and it was really awful at times. Most of the fights my parents had were about money, and I think you are just so smart to be nipping this in the bud right now.

Since I now know you're a planner like me, may I suggest some steps? I would do the following things right now:

- Write down your ultimate goal regarding how you want to handle money with your husband. Make it specific, example: "Goal: DH and I will create and follow a monthly saving and spending plan together. We will have joint/separate accounts for X, Y, and Z. I will handle the actual paying of all bills and transferring of money into investment accounts. We will not fight over money." This is your BHAG--Big, hairy, audacious goal. (I got that from a former administrator.) Everyone should have one. They seem out of the question and really far away, but they're great motivators.

- Write down an action plan for the first few steps you plan to start taking to make your BHAG happen. Examples: "I will take out Dave Ramsay, David Bach, and XYZ Person's financial books from the library and read them to help develop my own ideas about my own personal finance goals." "I will save $1,000 in six months to show DH that I can contribute to our joint savings." "DH and I will have one good 30 minute conversation about financial goals (or something related) each week."

These may sound silly, but sometimes just the act of writing something down helps make it become a reality for me. It also helps me clarify what I really want out of a situation.

Good luck, alli. You two can work it out. You already have one determined person (you) who is ready to make it happen. It will.

ETA: I just saw your last post. Don't worry about where you should be at your age, or where everyone else is. A lot of it is smoke and mirrors, anyway. My husband is 40 and the man never so much as filed a bill until we were married two years ago. Everyone moves at their own pace, and as long as you know what your pace is, there's no shame in that.
 

kama_s

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 12, 2008
Messages
3,617
Alli, I feel awful for you - this is such a difficult situation to be in. I don't have much financial advice to share because we combined our expenses when we moved in together (even though we do have individual bank accounts and credit cards).

I just wanted to ask you one thing as food for thought: does he not realize how stressed and hurt you are about this? Does he not care for how you a) feel and b) your well-being? I think couples therapy would be very beneficial, even though he isn't open to the idea. It's not always about him - he needs to compromise and be willing to do things for you (i.e. therapy)

I hope did not come out as harsh. I am truly hurting for you. Money used to be a touchy topic for me as well due to some horrible family reasons, but I was lucky my husband understood and accepted my insecurities.
 

zoebartlett

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 29, 2006
Messages
12,461
Alli -- I'm sorry that you're going through such a difficult time.

I've read through the thread, and this is the sentence that I keep going back to:

"--neither of us got into this relationship or marriage to be supported by the other financially, and neither of us makes enough money to support the other in a time of an emergency..."

To me, when you make a lifelong committment to someone else, you DO rely on the other person, especially when times are stressful. I totally understand wanting to be financially independent, etc., but there are times when it might be best to combine your income and work toward the greater good. KWIM?

It took me a LONG time to agree to and come to terms with combining our money. I didn't want my husband to take on my school loans since I have more than he does (and I have a higher degree than he does), but he was adamant that we're a team. We work together to help each other get rid of debt and work towards out goals. We work together in good times and bad, and we don't let the other fall behind. We've done our finances a few different ways; there's no right way to handle it. Figure out what works best for you and then revisit the issue after a few months and possibly rework things. You've gotten great advice about how to do things fairly.

I agree with everyone else that something needs to change, and hopefully your husband will see that there's a better way to handle your situation. He's not dealing with things in a fair way, and I hope he sees things differently after going to a financial planner.

Good luck!
 

NewEnglandLady

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Messages
6,299
Alli, first of all, you should never, ever feel ashamed or embarrassed about a.) losing your job or b.) not having more money. I'd say almost all of us have been in a situation where we had to live on really tight budgets to pay the bills, had/have student debt, have had to worry about paying for health insurance when we've lost our jobs, etc. It's all very stressful, but it's so smart that you're working hard to get on the same page as your husband. And that you're so open to hearing opinions about somethign that is difficult to discuss openly.

Like Haven, my DH and I are on the same page now, but we weren't always. Like I mentioned, before we got married I was very stubborn about paying my half. D would offer to help me out, but I would always tell him that wasn't fair since he made the choice not to go into debt for school or that it was ridiculous that he would have to pay for more than his fair share just because he earned a higher salary. Nothing changed immediately after we were married, but as I started thinking more seriously about wanting to start a family I knew I wanted to be rid of my debt and buy a house. When I brought it up with D I think he was a little taken aback since I'd set a financial precedent of paying my half. He said that he was perfectly willing to do take on more financially (and he did), but he did make a comment in the heat of the moment during a big fight last year about how he was frustrated and a little hurt that I was willing to let him take on such a big financial burden when before we were married I was so financially independent. We talked about that at length afterward because the last thing I want my husband to feel toward me is resentment or to think I'm dependent. He severely backtracked saying that he was just angry, however I don't think he would have said it if there weren't some truth to it. He claims that a true partnership is bringing each person's best assets to a relationship and that it can't always be 50/50, but sometimes I wonder if he feel like he's taking on a lot more.

In any case, I only bring this up because I do think it's very tough to make the switch from "living together" to "married" when it comes to finances. Especially when the "yours" and "his" precedent is set. I think the only way to really get through it is to do A LOT of talking and try to get to the bottom of why he thinks joint finances are bad? What is is that he's afraid of? That you'll somehow screw him over? It's hard to talk about, but you'll never feel secure about money when both of you are so insecure about it.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
Legally once married everything is common property. If you divorce it will all be split 50-50. Why maintain the fantasy that you are financiall independent when you are not? I have never understood this mentality. Not trying to judge, just warning you that my perspective is "All for one and one for all". Debts, assets, the whole enchilada. It helps that when we married we did not have indeividual debts or assets I suppose. If you did, then perhaps it is more complex.

To manage our money I have a very very detailed spread sheet budgeting our monthy money based on our combined net income. From this combined amount I figured out how much should be portioned to each type of financial category. All bills and expenses come from this joint account. Savings and debt repayment come from this joint account. We each have our own pensions and savings accounts through work, but that came off our incomes at the source, but I simply leave it out of our equations. Though in each of our individual names, it is still common property in the eyes of the law and in my eyes too.

I also figured out how much we could afford each month for entertainment and other variable things -- clothing, grooming, eating out, mad money for whatever is not essential and is not shared. We each have private accounts and each month a certain amount is transferred from the join account into these individual accounts and we can spend that money however we like. No justifications or permissions needed. So that money is independent. We both get the same amount of money each month. So we have three accounts -- a joint account and two individual accounts.

ETA I did not read the rest before posting, will catch up later tonight and add more!
 

jaysonsmom

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Messages
4,570
Dreamer_D said:
Legally once married everything is common property. If you divorce it will all be split 50-50. Why maintain the fantasy that you are financiall independent when you are not? I have never understood this mentality. Not trying to judge, just warning you that my perspective is "All for one and one for all". Debts, assets, the whole enchilada. It helps that when we married we did not have indeividual debts or assets I suppose. If you did, then perhaps it is more complex.

To manage our money I have a very very detailed spread sheet budgeting our monthy money based on our combined net income. From this combined amount I figured out how much should be portioned to each type of financial category. All bills and expenses come from this joint account. Savings and debt repayment come from this joint account. We each have our own pensions and savings accounts through work, but that came off our incomes at the source, but I simply leave it out of our equations. Though in each of our individual names, it is still common property in the eyes of the law and in my eyes too.

I also figured out how much we could afford each month for entertainment and other variable things -- clothing, grooming, eating out, mad money for whatever is not essential and is not shared. We each have private accounts and each month a certain amount is transferred from the join account into these individual accounts and we can spend that money however we like. No justifications or permissions needed. So that money is independent. We both get the same amount of money each month. So we have three accounts -- a joint account and two individual accounts.

That is exactly how we manage our money! I was just too lazy to try and type all that, soThanks Dreamer!
 

Blackpaw

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
2,469
Ali, i want to apologize, i wrote half that post at one moment, and finished it in a rush an hour later. I wanted to give more thought to it in any case, and i also realize my comment about marriage was nasty when i reread it. Im very sorry for that. Please know i didnt mean it that way at all, just worded my response terribly - and i guess my pre-conceived notions about financial planning as a couple are pretty cemented too. As i said, i find it kind of alien but it seems to be the norm for many so i want to respect that and respond to you in that context - i wanted to give the post more thought, because i wasnt very helpful to you...

From what you say, the kind of relationship you and your SO have had with money till now, and your 'financial backgrounds' (for want of a better term), are not conducive to the kind of shift it would require to be completely 'joined' financially. And i see it would be unwise to push that on you as its not where either of you are coming from.

Still from your unhappiness something has to be done. I think that Haven's suggestions about gradually introducing some 'joint' financial considerations are a good start. And future-talk is perhaps a way to get him started thinking about 'our' instead of 'mine'. I dont know if you plan to have children, but this consideration may be a way to start talking about 'our'. After all, how will buying things for children work? Will you split the cost of education, toys etc, give separate presents. If you stay home will that be quantified as a salary? i know that sounds silly but i think it shows that separate finances at some point does become unworkable.

If you dont plan to have children (as i dont) thats another story....maybe consider (as someone else suggested?!) retirement, and do you picture yourselves approaching money in the same way when you're oldies?! what if one of you is 'poor', the other 'rich'? What if, heaven forbid, one of you became incapacitated health wise and therefore also financially?

I cant help see it as Kenny does, but I understand your SOs financial background coupled with your profession mean you come at this from a completely different perspective to me. Also, in Australia, once you've lived together 6 months everything is half/half, there's not much grey area, so i think i see it as inevitable (and sometimes it concerns me too, not having 'separate' assets - ha, or any assets at all at the moment!!)...

In another thread i think Dreamer mentioned that money is the cause of a lot of marital trouble, so i really hope your SO will be receptive to talking about this, and maybe counselling eventually.

I really hope that things improve on this front, keep us updated as to how communications go...

and please dont feel awful about this, its just something to work through together, and you'll do it because all couples have to at some point. And if you dont i bet you know some great lawyers =)

please dont take offense to that, i was just trying a joke out, im not very good at them though...
 

LtlFirecracker

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
4,837
Just finished reading this thread, and I think you initial plan is good. Perhaps a finical planner will help bring an outside prospective to this. He may also help you guys put together a "rainy day" account so that you guys can work together if things get tough.

I am going to be in a weird situation because when we get married, we will still be in different cities. I am working in a small town that he cannot get a job in. So in a way, we will be living separate lives.

My FI has an MBA and is better with money than me. His plan is that we have a combined account that we contribute to based on our incomes. So if he takes home 5k a month and I take home 4k, than I only put 80% of what he contributes. That money will go towards bills, retirement ect. Than we are each going to have separate accounts with a set amount of money. That will be our "fun" money that we can spend on whatever we want without consulting each other. I like the plan because it allows us to work as a unit on the things we share and still have a little bit of independence.
 

luckynumber

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
665
Oh god alli, there's no more I can add to the excellent advice given above, but have a huge hug.

Your husband simply MUST work on his issues, or it will all come crashing down if and when you have kids. He will have to support you then for sure. And that's what he should do.

Haven, I salute your budgeting skills. We have never been short of money and that's probably why we are crap at managing our finances. We are going to be that couple who earned a lot, but never had any assets to show for it coz we just partied it all away. Gak! I must do something about this.....Thanks for the reality check guys!
 
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