Boundaries in families

[kenny]

I've noticed that boundaries vary tremendously in various families.

Some parents or siblings may criticize career or spouse choices, financial decisions, hairstyles, clothing, smoking, weight issues.
A grandmother may criticize, excuse me..."help"... how her daughter is raising her own kids.
In one family I know the parents drop in on their adult married children without calling and don't even knock when they come in.
I know they hate it but wouldn't dream of mentioning it.
The list goes on and on.

Can you offer an example of your boundaries being violated by a family member?
Have you ever ended a relationship over disagreements on boundaries?

When is it love and caring, and when is it unwelcome intrusion?

 

[Lottie]

Without revealing too much about the complicated relationship I have with my mother, she is probably the only person in my family we have boundary issues with. She will openly criticise my parenting and offer 'advice' but uses as reference, memories of our own upbringing that are so far from reality that they are almost completely fabricated. Its not something I could ever approach head on as it would almost definately cause an almighty feud, my sisters feel exactly the same way.

 

[pregcurious]

I think boundary issues or just outright complete disrespect can come into play with in-laws. My in-laws have tried to intrude upon time I have with my own family, even though we've had a long standing (over a decade) of taking turns for holidays. The mother-in-law even had the gall to ask me how often my sister sees her own in-laws, to which I happily replied, at least every other or every month. She was surprised. She then asked what they do for holidays, and I said that they alternate, and she mumbled, "oh, I guess some people are okay with that." (We now see her only 2x a year because she is so horrible. She made inappropriate comments related to my parents and my sister when my parents were dying and after they died. I've NEVER EVER interacted with someone as low. If she weren't family, I would never interact with her.)

My mother-in-law also has also pushed that I call her keep on calling her Mom after she has established a pattern of disrespecting me and my family. She insists that she treats me the same as my husband. This is AFTER she told me to stay at home when I had our baby, even though I have often been the main wage earner in our family. I have invested in my career (Ph.D.), love my job, and my family would literally be homeless if I did not work. (I have often been the more stable wage-earner compared to my husband, and have only ever not drawn a check for 3 months since I graduated college in the 90s. This is not the case with my husband.) I call her by her first name.

As for her child-rearing advice, at least 50% of it is just factually incorrect. What can you do when someone is just not very knowledgeable, but thinks they know better? For me, I've started correcting her factually incorrect advice on the spot now in front of people. (I do this after she insisted that it was not fair to bring up things she says after the fact. I was waiting partly because I was shocked into silence, and also to spare her the embarrassment in front of others).

For my daughter's sake, I interact with her, and my husband can Skype with my daughter and the grandparents as much as he wants. He sees that she treats me like crap and is fake-nice, but we both accept that she is good to him and is his mother. As such, he's responsible for both his parents when they visit.

If a family member never learned in kindergarten how to share and take turns, listen, and react appropriately to others, they will cross boundaries. This is especially the case with narcissists.

 

[Jennifer W]

I personally have a high need of privacy, and very little interest in anyone else's thoughts on anything I'm doing at any given time. So, my boundaries are pretty impenetrable. I can't control anyone else, or set their boundaries for them, so I make sure to 'enforce' my own set and leave no option for people to breach them. Practical examples include things like no one else has a key to my house, and when we've had persistent drop-ins in the past, we lock the gate, so no one can even make it to the house. I don't have a moat, but if I did, the drawbridge would be raised. Unsolicited advice will be disregarded (I mean, I don't listen, I'm just mentally whistling a tune) and then I change the subject. Instructions are blanked. If I don't want to talk, I don't answer the phone. Persistent advice will be received with a polite thank you then disregarded. If you persist beyond that and need to know why I'm not taking that advice, I'll raise an eyebrow (it's a knack, and a useful one). If you criticise, harp or otherwise annoy on this visit, you won't get past the gate on the next one... I am as polite as possible.

Seriously, I'm too old to live to please anyone else, even family. I'm loving and caring, but I keep my opinions in check unless they're asked for and I like the same courtesy in return. I've never had to end a relationship or cut anyone out over boundary issues, because I've never allowed anyone to cross 'em.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

I've noticed that boundaries vary tremendously in various families.

Some parents or siblings may criticize career or spouse choices, financial decisions, hairstyles, clothing, smoking, weight issues.
A grandmother may criticize, excuse me..."help"... how her daughter is raising her own kids.
In one family I know the parents drop in on their adult married children without calling and don't even knock when they come in.
I know they hate it but wouldn't dream of mentioning it.
The list goes on and on.

Can you offer an example of your boundaries being violated by a family member?
Have you ever ended a relationship over disagreements on boundaries?

When is it love and caring, and when is it unwelcome intrusion?

This is a huge deal with me right now. Everyone is constantly critisizing me for staying home with my kids. I just recently reunited with my mom after not speaking with her for more than five years (and not seeing her in more than 10) and one of the first issues was why I'm not working. Now, we're talking about a lady who ABANDONDED me and it took me many years to track her down, then she tells me that I should put my kids in day care so I can travel out and visit her! Well, that aside, my main situation is I CHOSE to have kids. In doing so, I took on the primary care of them and made the long-term dedication to tend to them, yet everyone decides to give me crap for not working. What happens if I need help, though??? They are NOT there! I have no one to count on if I'm sick or if the school has one of their many budget-cutting half-days, yet, I'm somehow suppose to magically do it all.

 

[zoebartlett]

My mom is the queen of guilt trips. My sister lives across the country from my parents, my husband, and me, and my mom occasionally mentions how when/if the time comes for her to have kids, my mom won't know them at all. "Grandma who?" is what she thinks my sister's (non-existent) kids will say. My mom also tells my sister that she lives across the WORLD from my parents, not 3000 miles away. I know it bothers my sister that my mom says these things, and whenever she brings it up, my mom gets defensive and says she's only kidding. No, no she's not.

There are other things she says and does, but this is what sticks out in my mind right now because my sister happens to be home for a few days, and these have come up.

 

[rainwood]

I think having boundary disputes is typical if you're in a relationship with someone else. Each person comes from a different family so the chances that the boundaries set by each family are the same are pretty small. The question is how best to handle those differences.

One of the big lessons that most of us have to learn is that you can criticize your own family to high heavens and it's okay, but it's not okay if a person not born into that family does the same. I can bitch as much as I want about a family member, but I will almost always resent it or come to my family's defense if someone from my husband's family says the same thing. It's just the natural response to defend your family against "outsiders" even if those outsiders are now related to you by marriage and even if they are right. The flip slide is also true. My DH can rant about his mother however he wants, but if I were to say the exact same thing, it wouldn't play very well. It took me a LONG time to learn this lesson, but things were much better once I did.

If the boundary crossing comes in the form of unsolicited and unwanted advice from in-law family members, it's important to learn how to ignore and let that stuff roll off your back if you can. Now I just say "Thanks for the input" with a smile on my face, change the subject and try to forget about it. MY DH knows that's my go-to phrase and he'll also try to steer the conversation elsewhere. If they're ragging on a member of my family or their choices, I just look at them and don't respond. If they ask questions, I'll just say "I don't know" or "You'd have to ask them." The fire will die out if you don't feed it.

If they're criticizing me or my choices, I have to decide whether it's worth it to make a stand right then and there. The main thing I look at is how bad is it and whether saying anything will make a difference in their behavior. MY MIL is 90, she isn't going to change. So I've adopted a "don't defend, don't explain, don't volunteer" approach. She can't criticize what she doesn't know about and she can't pick a fight with someone who chooses not to go there. I kind of enjoy being able to thwart her with a smile on my face. And my DH and I can joke about it later to let off steam. Plus, we limit how much time we see her. If she'd been a different person, she'd have seen us more often , but she isn't and she didn't. That's just the way it is. But it was important that both DH and I felt the same. If he didn't, he'd have had to make some solo visits.

 

[pregcurious]

Everyone is constantly critisizing me for staying home with my kids.

I'm sorry that people are criticizing you. I think its wonderful that you do that. My mother-in-law told me to stay at home after I had my kid; just goes to show it doesn't matter what mothers do because others will always judge them for trying to take care of their family. To me, it's no different from other forms of misogyny . I think there's no place for this; I have friends who stay at home, and those who work very demanding jobs with night calls, and I think they made the choice that was best for their family. For ours, we would not like to be homeless , so I work.

Have you tried boldly pointing out your points to your mother who abandoned you, in an even voice? I have started to do this with my mother-in-law, and she is stunned into silence, much like I am stunned into silence by her amazing ignorance, and her cruelty towards my family. The only difference is that I actually notice, whereas she does not notice when she stuns other people into silence or gets a gentle rebuke because she only cares about hearing herself talk.

 

[Porridge]

This is a huge deal with me right now. Everyone is constantly critisizing me for staying home with my kids. I just recently reunited with my mom after not speaking with her for more than five years (and not seeing her in more than 10) and one of the first issues was why I'm not working. Now, we're talking about a lady who ABANDONDED me and it took me many years to track her down, then she tells me that I should put my kids in day care so I can travel out and visit her! Well, that aside, my main situation is I CHOSE to have kids. In doing so, I took on the primary care of them and made the long-term dedication to tend to them, yet everyone decides to give me crap for not working. What happens if I need help, though??? They are NOT there! I have no one to count on if I'm sick or if the school has one of their many budget-cutting half-days, yet, I'm somehow suppose to magically do it all.

There's a place for this kind of "advice" and it's the psychological equivalent of a rubbish bin

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I hear about family boundaries, or lack there of, on a daily basis. Personally, I think it is important to have flexible boundaries. Families with both rigid and diffused boundaries create dysfunction. Since we all (I believe) tend to recreate the patterns of our family of origin dysfunction can be generational. Luckily, I also believe with insight and counseling we can also break those patterns.

 

[Lotus99]

My mom slapped her grandson (my nephew) across the face because he was having problems coming up with an idea for a project. I'd say that's overstepping all kinds of boundaries. Oddly, she never did that to her own children.

On days when I hear things like this, I'm glad I decided not to have children.

 

[Echidna]

In one family I know the parents drop in on their adult married children without calling and don't even knock when they come in.

Can you offer an example of your boundaries being violated by a family member?
Have you ever ended a relationship over disagreements on boundaries?

When is it love and caring, and when is it unwelcome intrusion?

I think it's fairly natural in the early stages of relationships to spend a bit of time negotiating boundaries. DH's parents and sister used to drop in unannounced relatively frequently and often "knocked" while walking through the door (they both have keys). They absolutely meant it in a loving way, as they have repeatedly told me to consider their home as my own and have given me my own key for whenever I need it. It's part of what made them very welcoming and open when I first started dating DH, which I appreciated.

That said, it's not how my family works. Everyone's "stuff" was theirs and you had to ask before borrowing and return in pristine condition, for example. When I moved out of my family home, I offered mum the key back (which she declined). Whenever I visit now, I knock on the front door even though I can let myself in. Who knows what I'd see if I didn't?

All that is to say that I was uncomfortable with people dropping in without calling (especially at 7am on a Saturday, since we were often still in bed- AWKWARD). I love entertaining though, so DH had a little word and now everyone calls first (even if they're just around the corner) and everyone is happy

PS. I would be lying if I didn't say that I'm looking forward to renovating our front porch so we can change our front door (and consequently the locks)

 

[Echidna]

Everyone is constantly critisizing me for staying home with my kids.

I'm sorry that people are criticizing you. I think its wonderful that you do that. My mother-in-law told me to stay at home after I had my kid; just goes to show it doesn't matter what mothers do because others will always judge them for trying to take care of their family.

I'm sorry for you both. It seems that you cannot win either way, so as long as you are happy with your choices and they are best for your family, no one else gets a say.

 

[iLander]

I've noticed that boundaries vary tremendously in various families.

Some parents or siblings may criticize career or spouse choices, financial decisions, hairstyles, clothing, smoking, weight issues.
A grandmother may criticize, excuse me..."help"... how her daughter is raising her own kids.
In one family I know the parents drop in on their adult married children without calling and don't even knock when they come in.
I know they hate it but wouldn't dream of mentioning it.
The list goes on and on.

Can you offer an example of your boundaries being violated by a family member?
Have you ever ended a relationship over disagreements on boundaries?

When is it love and caring, and when is it unwelcome intrusion?

Wow, Kenny, were you at my house? We built my MIL a house a few doors down from ours. She moved in on a Wed, and on Thur morning, she walked right in. We wigged out. DH told her this wasn't cool. She didn't do it again.

 

[iLander]

Ugh. I didn't want to leave this thread having made the thirteenth post.

So, have a happy spring solstice with bunnies and eggs, Kenny!

 

[pregcurious]

She moved in on a Wed, and on Thur morning, she walked right in. We wigged out. DH told her this wasn't cool. She didn't do it again.

I'm glad you were able to nip this in the bud. My MIL would have said that it was bad that I didn't confront her at the moment, and that going through DH is not right. Then she would have claimed that she was doing it out of love and that I should call her "Mom". She would then do it X more times, and when reminded that she has set a pattern, she would say that there's something wrong with bringing up something she apologized for. I kid you not. Now, I confront her at the moment, and she is shocked, but it at least stops whatever is going on, and she likes me less each time which means she will stay away.

 

[packrat]

My parents and brother/SIl have the code for our front door and we've told them to just come in-we're pretty loosey goosey on that. They knock and then enter the code and come in. Unless it's just dad..then there's all kinds of beeping and cussing b/c he can't remember it most of the time. When we go to my Gramma's, my parents or Aunt/Uncle's house we generally knock and holler "yoo hoo" or "it's burglars" when we walk in.

My MIL is the one that needed boundaries. I couldn't-still can't-do anything right in her eyes and there's nothing she liked/likes more than to gleefully point things out that she felt were faults. She called my doctors office after our first baby was born and wanted me to be reported as an unfit mother b/c my baby spit up sometimes after nursing, wouldn't sleep thru the night at 4 days old and I refused to give her cereal at that age. So...she was told in no uncertain terms if she couldn't treat me properly and behave properly when she was here she wasn't allowed to come over and not allowed to watch the baby. That was almost 8 years ago and she's been here a handful of times since then, and the few times we "tried" to let her watch the baby went badly, so that was the end of that. I don't talk to her unless I absolutely have to and we got rid of the home phone, so she can't call and scream at me about what a horrible person I am. I still have to deal w/the toxicity, just not on a personal basis anymore-when the husband talks to her and gets all worked up and is in a bad mood, I'm the one left to deal with it and that frustrates the hell out of me.

 

[kenny]

Ugh. I didn't want to leave this thread having made the thirteenth post.

So, have a happy spring solstice with bunnies and eggs, Kenny!

Thank you!

 

[kenny]

My parents and brother/SIl have the code for our front door and we've told them to just come in-we're pretty loosey goosey on that. They knock and then enter the code and come in. Unless it's just dad..then there's all kinds of beeping and cussing b/c he can't remember it most of the time. When we go to my Gramma's, my parents or Aunt/Uncle's house we generally knock and holler "yoo hoo" or "it's burglars" when we walk in.

My MIL is the one that needed boundaries. I couldn't-still can't-do anything right in her eyes and there's nothing she liked/likes more than to gleefully point things out that she felt were faults. She called my doctors office after our first baby was born and wanted me to be reported as an unfit mother b/c my baby spit up sometimes after nursing, wouldn't sleep thru the night at 4 days old and I refused to give her cereal at that age. So...she was told in no uncertain terms if she couldn't treat me properly and behave properly when she was here she wasn't allowed to come over and not allowed to watch the baby. That was almost 8 years ago and she's been here a handful of times since then, and the few times we "tried" to let her watch the baby went badly, so that was the end of that. I don't talk to her unless I absolutely have to and we got rid of the home phone, so she can't call and scream at me about what a horrible person I am. I still have to deal w/the toxicity, just not on a personal basis anymore-when the husband talks to her and gets all worked up and is in a bad mood, I'm the one left to deal with it and that frustrates the hell out of me.

Wow, that sucks.
Reporting you as unfit is beyond the pale.
I'm so sorry you have to deal with that.

Good for you to have the huevos to stand up to her.
I know adults who'd never never 'call' their parents on anything.

 

[Amber St. Clare]

My parents and brother/SIl have the code for our front door and we've told them to just come in-we're pretty loosey goosey on that. They knock and then enter the code and come in. Unless it's just dad..then there's all kinds of beeping and cussing b/c he can't remember it most of the time. When we go to my Gramma's, my parents or Aunt/Uncle's house we generally knock and holler "yoo hoo" or "it's burglars" when we walk in.

My MIL is the one that needed boundaries. I couldn't-still can't-do anything right in her eyes and there's nothing she liked/likes more than to gleefully point things out that she felt were faults. She called my doctors office after our first baby was born and wanted me to be reported as an unfit mother b/c my baby spit up sometimes after nursing, wouldn't sleep thru the night at 4 days old and I refused to give her cereal at that age. So...she was told in no uncertain terms if she couldn't treat me properly and behave properly when she was here she wasn't allowed to come over and not allowed to watch the baby. That was almost 8 years ago and she's been here a handful of times since then, and the few times we "tried" to let her watch the baby went badly, so that was the end of that. I don't talk to her unless I absolutely have to and we got rid of the home phone, so she can't call and scream at me about what a horrible person I am. I still have to deal w/the toxicity, just not on a personal basis anymore-when the husband talks to her and gets all worked up and is in a bad mood, I'm the one left to deal with it and that frustrates the hell out of me.

I am so sorry you had to go thru that!!!

 

[rubybeth]

Can you offer an example of your boundaries being violated by a family member?
Have you ever ended a relationship over disagreements on boundaries?

When is it love and caring, and when is it unwelcome intrusion?

I have very good boundaries with my parents. We have successfully made it to my adulthood and now I can hang out with them as friends, ask for advice when I need it, but otherwise, they keep their opinions about my life to themselves. Luckily for them, they don't have much to complain about when it comes to me and DH, or my younger sister. They love and have concern for us when something is going wrong, but they aren't overly nosy or intrusive. They would *never* drop by my apartment or my sister's without calling first.

My DH, on the other hand, started our marriage with some boundary issues with his mother and grandmother, who raised him (his dad was distant). They now know that it's not their place to offer up unsolicited advice or opinions on any life choices he or I make, as we are now our own family, separate from them, though they do sometimes slip up, comments when I'm around have stopped. None of his family would ever just 'stop by' our apartment, though I wonder if we had a house if his mother would drive past to see if our cars were there if we don't answer the phone (but she knows DH has weird work hours and might not be awake at any given time of the day anyway). DH's grandmother still comments on his haircuts/beard/manner of dress, but he has decided to ignore these comments and just love her for her 88-year-old self.

I would actually welcome unsolicited advice if people in my life thought I was making a really huge mistake (i.e. marrying the wrong person, buying a house at the wrong time, etc.). I would expect them to preface it by saying something like, "I say this out of love and concern, and you don't have to take my advice, but I think that _____." My sister kind of did this before DH and I got engaged, like, "Are you REALLY sure you want to marry this guy? Why?" and that made me reflect and explain why we wanted to get married. She felt much better after we talked, and I did, too. I trust that my sister had my best interests at heart, was not asking out of anything other than love and concern, and there was nothing for her to gain by sticking her neck out. I *wish* she had done this with some of my cousins (who subsequently got divorced within a year or two).

I would say it's sort of like the boy who cried wolf. If there are family members who always harp on about your life when it's not their place, you aren't going to listen when it really matters. If they mostly keep things to themselves and support you through thick and thin, then when they do have a criticism, it means more and can be taken much better.

 

[packrat]

Thanks guys. One of my friends didn't really grasp the situation until I had our son. My friend was in the room w/me and my husband and our son who was just a few hours old and MIL came-and was so awful my friend started shaking and had to leave. She later told me it wasn't that she didn't *believe* that MIL was that way to me, she just thought I was over reacting/over dramatizing, until she witnessed it first hand. My husband is the one who had to stand up to her initially and explain that this is *our* family, not hers. And eventually, my mom helped me to understand that I don't *have* to answer the phone when she calls, and if I do and she's belligerent, my control of the situation can be found by clicking the disconnect button which I did on many occasions. I never told my husband half of the things she said to me-it was too upsetting. Even tho she and he don't and never have had a good relationship, she'll never forgive me for taking him away from her, and the more he chooses me and the kids over her, the worse it gets. It's only just recently that it finally dawned on me what a master manipulator she is...I've honestly never experienced anything like her and her actions before. He tells me how things were when he was growing up and it makes my stomach churn. I told mom that I can't stand to listen to it anymore and I don't care if she's in her 70's-it makes me want to punch her for treating him that way and continuing to treat him that way-and for believing that she was a world class perfect mother.

 

[kenny]

I suspect there may be ancient genetic/DNA factor that results in some parents bulldozing through relatively-modern boundaries.

IMHO one universal human condition is that we all consider ourselves to be right - whether we are Mother Theresa or Hitler.

Forcing our view of what's right on children who carry our DNA into the future may have resulted Darwinian rewards - better survival odds.
After all, old people are generally wiser than younger ones.

Once again exceptions to not vanish what is generally-true.
Clearly this theory is at odds with modern values regarding self and boundaries.

 

[Rhea]

No, we have great families. I moved 4000 miles away from my parents and siblings so there's no dropping in on us. We lived 10 minutes away from his parents, who never came around without us inviting them. My sister lives very close to my parents and they don't go around to her place without being invited.

My father has some boundary issues, but they are mostly kept in check by my mother. His issues are mostly about asking questions in more public company which shouldn't be. He also doesn't understand how to keep things hush-hush and thinks that "within the family" means aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings...everyone!

None of us have children yet, but I think DH's mother will be the biggest obstacle. She believes that she raised her child well, extremely well. She was careful about what he ate, where he was educated, and how he spent his free time. She has very strong opinions which don't seem to be based on anything and she isn't afraid to share them. However, her partner and her son are pretty well versed in ignoring them, MIL and I get along well, and she's surprised me so far in her ability to let us run our house and lives the way we want.

 

[anne_h]

I'm more like Jennifer W.

I feel comfortable and confident about who I am, so when someone asks questions, or offers opinions/advice, I can listen and not be upset. If I disagree, I'll just say so, and just do things as I see best. If they have a valid point, I can respect that and think about it.

These exchanges are always friendly and civil. I can think of one occasion where a family member overstepped my comfort level. So in that case, I just asked her to please stop, and she did. And that was the end of it.

I think when another person touches on one's own insecurities, that is where a lot of boundary issues come from (for me it did anyways).

Interesting thread!!

Anne

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

In our family we can give opinions without others taking offence. Often we ask for opinions and do consider them. Yes, we drop in on one another without calling, and the only people we get annoyed with is our parents. If we are sensitive to certan issues we don't bring them up.

I have found that the most sensitive time is when children are first born. The -to work or- not to work issue seems to be particularly sensitive. I personally say ,"do what you want and think is best for you". I really don't have an opinion so all is good with me.

Really, only my mother, my brothers wife mother are the only two that cross boundaries. It used to bother me when I was younger.
Many times I didn't talk to her . My mother in law was fine. Only occasionally her approval or disapproval when babies came along.

But she was OK.

Annette

 

[kenny]

There IS no universal absolute right or wrong when it comes to family boundaries.
If everyone involved is cool with dropping in without calling and walking in without knocking then it's cool . . .
Every other behavior, speech, expectation that is fine with all parties is fine - short of criminal behavior of course.

I didn't not mean to imply that dropping in unannounced and walking in without knocking is universally a bad thing.
It was just a convenient example of what some may or may not be fine.