Anyone else horrified?

[Sparklelu]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/unbabies-u-incinerated-clinical-waste-heating-fuel-report-article-1.1732264

There will be a news show about this tonight in England.

 

[kenny]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Yeah, it does seem gruesome but they told the mothers the remains were cremated.
They were.

I can't explain why, but it initially seems more ethical to creamate remains but let the energy go to waste.
But then after thinking a bit maybe not.
In both cases the same thing happens to the remains, they are cremated.

Frankly, I hope they find some constructive use for my dead body.
I'm not sure why it just going to waste should make anyone feel better.
Dead is dead.

Obviously, nobody encouraged women to get abortions to lower their heating bill.

Actually, I'll bet all crematoriums get some residual heat from their operations which lowers their heating bills a bit in winter but raises their AC bill in summer.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

A lot of medical waste is incinerated, so the story comes as no surprise.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I don't know how I feel about this. I certainly think everyone is entitled to compassionate care, and am much more concerned about how women in general are often treated at times of high vulnerability by those in the medical profession.

As for the medical materials being incinerated... to me we're all just biology, but I completely recognize that my response is not coming from a place of grieving or pain and therefore easier said than experienced.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/unbabies-u-incinerated-clinical-waste-heating-fuel-report-article-1.1732264

There will be a news show about this tonight in England.

Not really. Why would I be horrified? I mean if the parents wanted the children's remains I would expect that they'd ask for it and the hospital would give it to them. If they don't ask for it... well, then it is medical waste, I think.

What are they supposed to do with them? Maybe mass cremations. But what is the cost of that. And who pays for it?

 

[Sky56]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Definitely a yucky feel to it. Nazis making "good use" of human hair and veterinarians selling your euthanized pets' remains to be made into dog food come to mind... I don't mind the cremation aspect but the idea of heating buildings with aborted fetuses seems kinda creepy!

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/unbabies-u-incinerated-clinical-waste-heating-fuel-report-article-1.1732264

There will be a news show about this tonight in England.

Not really. Why would I be horrified? I mean if the parents wanted the children's remains I would expect that they'd ask for it and the hospital would give it to them. If they don't ask for it... well, then it is medical waste, I think.

What are they supposed to do with them? Maybe mass cremations. But what is the cost of that. And who pays for it?

and you wonder why I have concerns about your move to NC?! LOL....!

once again, Gypsy, your post pretty much sums it up for me.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/unbabies-u-incinerated-clinical-waste-heating-fuel-report-article-1.1732264

There will be a news show about this tonight in England.

Not really. Why would I be horrified? I mean if the parents wanted the children's remains I would expect that they'd ask for it and the hospital would give it to them. If they don't ask for it... well, then it is medical waste, I think.

What are they supposed to do with them? Maybe mass cremations. But what is the cost of that. And who pays for it?

and you wonder why I have concerns about your move to NC?! LOL....!

once again, Gypsy, your post pretty much sums it up for me.

HAHAHA!.

This is the kind of crap that scares me: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/03/24/pastor-demands-women-shut-mouths/

The dead are dead. I worry about the living.

 

[JewelFreak]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

It's kind of icky on principle but whether they are incinerated, cremated, or buried all together in a common grave doesn't matter to them anymore. I think of the body as clothing we wear while we're here & when it's worn out, we let go of it. If any part of mine can help someone else after I'm done with it, I'd feel good about that. They're welcome to parcel me out.

Fetuses & embryos are not babies until they are born.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

^The discussion in this thread seems to be moving in a direction that is not allowed on the Forum.

 

[TC1987]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I'm not horrified at all. The people who want something else done with it can pony up the money to do it and also take care of making all of the arrangements. Otherwise, it's processed as medical waste, along with all the other medical waste. I don't find that surprising.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

It doesn't bother me in the least. Suppose the bodies had been cremated or incinerated on their own. What would have been done with the ashes? They would end up discarded just the same. As for using the heat to generate energy, I think it is actually clever and resourceful. I hate wasting energy.

As for myself, I've left instructions that my body should be used to the utmost: donate all viable organs, donate to hospitals or schools and, if anything is left over, cremate or dispose in the most efficient, low impact way. If energy could be generated, all the better.

 

[kenny]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Serious question, and not asking the semantic, medical, ethical and futile question, at what stage is it a "baby" ...

Do parents/women ever request the result of an abortion for funerals?
Do churches conduct such funerals?
Are there graves for such?

If considered medical waste/bio hazard doctors may not be allowed to hand it over.
I remember asking for and getting my wisdom teeth in 1980.
I still have them somewhere in this junk pile we live in.
I hear today you can't get anything they remove from your body to protect the doctors/hospitals from lawsuits resulting from harm that may result.

Calm down, I'm not saying it is the same as an extracted tooth.

 

[msop04]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Serious question, and not asking the semantic, medical, ethical and futile question, at what stage is it a "baby" ...
Do parents/women ever request the result of an abortion for funerals?
Do churches conduct such funerals?
Are there graves for such?

If considered medical waste/bio hazard doctors may not be allowed to hand it over.
I remember asking for and getting my wisdom teeth in 1980.
I still have them somewhere in this junk pile we live in.
I hear today you can't get anything they remove from your body to protect the doctors/hospitals from lawsuits resulting from harm that may result.

Calm down, I'm not saying it is the same as an extracted tooth.

kenny, this question will open up a big 'ole can of worms... people will disagree based on "semantic, medical, ethical" reasons, and each family will have funerals (or not) based on their specific beliefs. There will be a million answers, but no "right" or "wrong" answers, since it's a personal thing.

As to the original question... I really don't know how I feel about it. I mean, I kinda agree with Gypsy. They didn't lie to the parents about cremation. I suppose it's the idea of it that makes me a little sad (or maybe "icky" better describes the feeling), but I'm not shocked. There are laws that govern the disposal of medical waste... and I would imagine this is legal.

 

[kenny]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Serious question, and not asking the semantic, medical, ethical and futile question, at what stage is it a "baby" ...
Do parents/women ever request the result of an abortion for funerals?
Do churches conduct such funerals?
Are there graves for such?

If considered medical waste/bio hazard doctors may not be allowed to hand it over.
I remember asking for and getting my wisdom teeth in 1980.
I still have them somewhere in this junk pile we live in.
I hear today you can't get anything they remove from your body to protect the doctors/hospitals from lawsuits resulting from harm that may result.

Calm down, I'm not saying it is the same as an extracted tooth.

kenny, this question will open up a big 'ole can of worms... people will disagree based on "semantic, medical, ethical" reasons, and each family will have funerals (or not) based on their specific beliefs. There will be a million answers, but no "right" or "wrong" answers, since it's a personal thing.

Yes people vary.
Nothing new.

I'm just asking if anyone gets the 'remains' or if hospitals/clinics can't release them.

 

[Circe]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I think for some women, a wanted pregnancy is a "baby" from the first minute they know they're pregnant, and they genuinely mourn miscarriages no matter how early. It's something that doesn't tend to be discussed too often in general society, and as a result, it's this strange kind of taboo subject which casts women into this bizarre secret-keeping model, either of not letting anyone know they're pregnant for the first trimester at all, "just in case," or, in the case of a loss, of going through the process of grieving without telling anybody why they might be behaving oddly, sadly, angrily, whatever. Technically speaking, though, it crosses the line from "miscarriage" into "stillbirth" at 20 weeks. This article describes a practice only employed through the end of the first trimester: I'm guessing after the 13-week line, parents are given a choice.

I know more about this topic than I want to: I lost a wanted pregnancy at five months. The hospital gave me a somewhat strange pamphlet to cover the options: they would give you time with the body to grieve, they could provide small hand-prints or cast them in clay, they would put you in touch with a funeral parlor if you wanted a cremation or burial ... I can't remember if they would put you in touch with a specialist photographer or if their usual staff photographer would preform the service, but you could also have photographs taken. A lot of people apparently feel like this is the only chance they get to see or hold their child: I can understand it for others, though I did not want any of it myself.

I'm going to guess the same emotions will apply to an abortion performed for medical reasons, so I think the answers to your questions, Kenny, are an overall "yes." It's probably not common that early, but it's certainly something that would fall within the predictable range of responses.

As for the original question ... I think I'm with Sky. I'm generally a practical person, I don't have any religious beliefs to color my feelings on the remains when the consciousness has fled, and I've lodged a long-standing wish my my loved ones that when I kick it, they make my skull into a golden goblet with rubies in the eye-sockets (so I can attend celebrations and family gatherings for years to come). But in my head, there's a difference between that and heating a building, somehow. I feel the same about any medical waste, frankly. I understand it needs to be disposed of safely, but there's something a tad macabre about it. I wouldn't call it actionable, though I do think they should perhaps ask people before they engage in the practice, now that it's become apparent it's A Thing to which people will react strongly.

I wonder where, if anywhere, else they draw the line on what kind of medical waste is appropriate to heat a building. Amputated limbs? Discarded organs?

 

[TooPatient]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Serious question, and not asking the semantic, medical, ethical and futile question, at what stage is it a "baby" ...

Do parents/women ever request the result of an abortion for funerals?
Do churches conduct such funerals?
Are there graves for such?

If considered medical waste/bio hazard doctors may not be allowed to hand it over.
I remember asking for and getting my wisdom teeth in 1980.
I still have them somewhere in this junk pile we live in.
I hear today you can't get anything they remove from your body to protect the doctors/hospitals from lawsuits resulting from harm that may result.

Calm down, I'm not saying it is the same as an extracted tooth.

Kenny -- I've been wondering the same sort of things.

ETA 2: I've got too much to do today to have to come back and try to explain something taken wrong. I'll edit to simply say that those are good questions and there are more besides.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I wouldn't touch that question (the one about when does it become a baby) with a 10-foot pole…. It's tied into religion and abortion and neither of which are discussions that are allowed here.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I think for some women, a wanted pregnancy is a "baby" from the first minute they know they're pregnant, and they genuinely mourn miscarriages no matter how early. It's something that doesn't tend to be discussed too often in general society, and as a result, it's this strange kind of taboo subject which casts women into this bizarre secret-keeping model, either of not letting anyone know they're pregnant for the first trimester at all, "just in case," or, in the case of a loss, of going through the process of grieving without telling anybody why they might be behaving oddly, sadly, angrily, whatever. Technically speaking, though, it crosses the line from "miscarriage" into "stillbirth" at 20 weeks. This article describes a practice only employed through the end of the first trimester: I'm guessing after the 13-week line, parents are given a choice.

I know more about this topic than I want to: I lost a wanted pregnancy at five months. The hospital gave me a somewhat strange pamphlet to cover the options: they would give you time with the body to grieve, they could provide small hand-prints or cast them in clay, they would put you in touch with a funeral parlor if you wanted a cremation or burial ... I can't remember if they would put you in touch with a specialist photographer or if their usual staff photographer would preform the service, but you could also have photographs taken. A lot of people apparently feel like this is the only chance they get to see or hold their child: I can understand it for others, though I did not want any of it myself.

I'm going to guess the same emotions will apply to an abortion performed for medical reasons, so I think the answers to your questions, Kenny, are an overall "yes." It's probably not common that early, but it's certainly something that would fall within the predictable range of responses.

As for the original question ... I think I'm with Sky. I'm generally a practical person, I don't have any religious beliefs to color my feelings on the remains when the consciousness has fled, and I've lodged a long-standing wish my my loved ones that when I kick it, they make my skull into a golden goblet with rubies in the eye-sockets (so I can attend celebrations and family gatherings for years to come). But in my head, there's a difference between that and heating a building, somehow. I feel the same about any medical waste, frankly. I understand it needs to be disposed of safely, but there's something a tad macabre about it. I wouldn't call it actionable, though I do think they should perhaps ask people before they engage in the practice, now that it's become apparent it's A Thing to which people will react strongly.

I wonder where, if anywhere, else they draw the line on what kind of medical waste is appropriate to heat a building. Amputated limbs? Discarded organs?

Incinerated medical waste is required to adhere to air emissions standards. Medical waste is defined as that which can not be dumped in a landfill (it can include human tissue, syringes, diseased organs, bloody gauze, etc.) and a vast majority of it is incinerated, so I'm guessing that as long as it met air emissions guidelines, its' probably fair game as an energy source (like heating).

 

[makemepretty]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

The article didn't bother me. I've miscarried twice and it never would have occurred to me to take the tissue home or bury it. They tend to want to look at it to see if they can figure out what happened but they can't then they dispose of it. They're talking about abortions and miscarriages..not babies that were born. It's not the same, it's usually bloody tissue and medically has to be taken care of in a more sanitary way.

 

[movie zombie]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

The article didn't bother me. I've miscarried twice and it never would have occurred to me to take the tissue home or bury it. They tend to want to look at it to see if they can figure out what happened but they can't then they dispose of it. They're talking about abortions and miscarriages..not babies that were born. It's not the same, it's usually bloody tissue and medically has to be taken care of in a more sanitary way.

i miscarried once and almost a 2nd time.....and i agree with you.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Not quite Soylent Green territory, but I can understand an initial disgust response. However, the products of a first trimester miscarriage or abortion is rather like a heavy period. Medical waste. I think that using the heat byproduct from disposing of the waste is good.
If a person wanted to take home the products of conception for a goodbye ceremony or burial, they could easily liase with the hospital to facilitate it.
I was allowed to take home my baby's placenta and plant a tree on it in my backyard.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I've miscarried too, but it was horribly upsetting and I viewed it as the loss of a baby as opposed to medical waste - although I realize that a medical facility deems it as such and I'm fine with that.

 

[amc80]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Not quite Soylent Green territory, but I can understand an initial disgust response. However, the products of a first trimester miscarriage or abortion is rather like a heavy period. Medical waste. I think that using the heat byproduct from disposing of the waste is good.
If a person wanted to take home the products of conception for a goodbye ceremony or burial, they could easily liase with the hospital to facilitate it.
I was allowed to take home my baby's placenta and plant a tree on it in my backyard.

It must vary by hospital (or jurisdiction). I had part of my lung removed and wanted to keep it in a jar, but was told it had to go to pathology so I couldn't have it.

 

[JaneSmith]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Not quite Soylent Green territory, but I can understand an initial disgust response. However, the products of a first trimester miscarriage or abortion is rather like a heavy period. Medical waste. I think that using the heat byproduct from disposing of the waste is good.
If a person wanted to take home the products of conception for a goodbye ceremony or burial, they could easily liase with the hospital to facilitate it.
I was allowed to take home my baby's placenta and plant a tree on it in my backyard.

It must vary by hospital (or jurisdiction). I had part of my lung removed and wanted to keep it in a jar, but was told it had to go to pathology so I couldn't have it.

The difference being there was something wrong or suspicious with your bit of lung. However, I do agree that hospitals vary.
I hope you are all better now, post-op.

I've miscarried too, but it was horribly upsetting and I viewed it as the loss of a baby as opposed to medical waste - although I realize that a medical facility deems it as such and I'm fine with that.

Of course it was a loss of a baby for you. Like Circe said upthread, many people think of themselves as pregnant with a baby from the moment they pee on a stick.

 

[amc80]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Not quite Soylent Green territory, but I can understand an initial disgust response. However, the products of a first trimester miscarriage or abortion is rather like a heavy period. Medical waste. I think that using the heat byproduct from disposing of the waste is good.
If a person wanted to take home the products of conception for a goodbye ceremony or burial, they could easily liase with the hospital to facilitate it.
I was allowed to take home my baby's placenta and plant a tree on it in my backyard.

It must vary by hospital (or jurisdiction). I had part of my lung removed and wanted to keep it in a jar, but was told it had to go to pathology so I couldn't have it.

The difference being there was something wrong or suspicious with your bit of lung. However, I do agree that hospitals vary.
I hope you are all better now, post-op.

But in a miscarriage situation, isn't there often some genetic testing that happens?

And yes, much better, thanks!

 

[partgypsy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

It reminds me of when my 7 year old, finally made the connection that the meat we were eating, was tissue from animals we killed for that purpose. She knew that there were chicken and pig farms, but never made the connection to what happens, afterwards. She was horrified, but she still eats meat.
For the people who read this article and were surprised, I want to ask them, what did they think happened to their remains? They have to do something with them.
In the same way, all the sewage that results from all the people in your town, pooping, it goes in the sewers, it's processed by a water treatment facility and sent on its way, where? Oh the next town takes that water and eventually uses it for drinking water.

I do have to call into question the belief that pet food companies are using euthanized pets in petfood. If they are, they are doing it illegally. Euthanized pets by nature have drugs, etc in them that make them unfit to eat. If you do not want an individual cremation for your pet then those remains are mass cremated.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Not quite Soylent Green territory, but I can understand an initial disgust response. However, the products of a first trimester miscarriage or abortion is rather like a heavy period. Medical waste. I think that using the heat byproduct from disposing of the waste is good.
If a person wanted to take home the products of conception for a goodbye ceremony or burial, they could easily liase with the hospital to facilitate it.
I was allowed to take home my baby's placenta and plant a tree on it in my backyard.

It must vary by hospital (or jurisdiction). I had part of my lung removed and wanted to keep it in a jar, but was told it had to go to pathology so I couldn't have it.

The difference being there was something wrong or suspicious with your bit of lung. However, I do agree that hospitals vary.
I hope you are all better now, post-op.

But in a miscarriage situation, isn't there often some genetic testing that happens?

And yes, much better, thanks!

In most cases, I wouldn't think that any further testing is done. Miscarriages occur so frequently that testing would be overkill unless there was some sort of special circumstances. When I miscarried, I offered the remains and the hospital told me that I could do what I want with them because they were not needed.

 

[VapidLapid]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

I guess I must be a monster. Can't imagine what else they could do with it; seems like the right choice. At least they didn't give it to Damien Hirst to make "art". Maybe even saved a tree.

 

[partgypsy]

Re: Anyone else horrified?

Oops I was wrong! I looked up my county, and dead pets, other animals can be disposed of either by incineration, or by "rendering". Our vet incinerates, but there is no law against any other vets, as well as farmers with dead, diseased livestock selling these dead pets to renderers, and it being made into bone or meat meal which could end up in pet food. I completely disagree with this, at the least because of the massive health concerns!
FAQS (from my state)
How should I dispose of dead animals?

The owner of a domesticated animal that dies must either bury the animal to a depth of three feet beneath the surface of the ground or dispose of the animal in a manner approved by the State Veterinarian. The animal must not be buried within 300 feet of any flowing stream or public body of water. N.C.G.S. § 106-403. Methods approved by the State Veterinarian for animal disposal include:

•rendering at a rendering plant licensed under N.C.G.S. § 106‑168.7;
•complete incineration;
•in the case of dead poultry, placing in a disposal pit as prescribed in N.C.G.S. § 106‑549.70; and
•any method which in the professional opinion of the State Veterinarian would make possible the salvage of part of a dead animal's value without endangering human or animal health. 02 NCAC 52C .0102.



(world becoming a little to close to Cloud atlas).