Another article on debt/youth.....

[monarch64]

I think no matter how much a person says (including myself) that they don''t compare themselves to others, or care what others think about their lifestyle, deep down, we all can have feelings of insecurity and wonder whether we measure up. I think it''s just human nature to look at other people and analyze why some people have more or less than you do. Sure, ideally for most of us, we shouldn''t envy others and we should be happy for everyone that they are successful without thinking to ourselves that they are probably just in a lot of debt to have what they have. But again, we are human, and part of life as a human is to have a hard time rising above caring about who has more "stuff." We all go through cycles of feeling inadequate, that is what makes us get out of bed in the morning and work to accomplish goals we have for ourselves. If we never knew anyone who had bigger, better, more expensive lifestyles than we did, I don''t know if we''d ever set the bar higher for ourselves. Ok, this is a really thought-provoking topic and I know I''m probably taking it to a level that it wasn''t intended to get to...so I''m stopping now! LOL!

Rhapsody, I agree it''s hard to be a small fish in a big ocean--I was a big fish in a small pond in my hometown, but when I moved to the suburbs of Chicago Holy Cow was I in for a reality check! I don''t even try to compete, it''s impossible! When I start to compare myself to others anymore, I really have to sit back for a minute and thing, jeez, it''s a good thing I actually have a roof over my head even if it is the size of a dollhouse, although we have friends our age who are living in homes that you could fit six of ours in! But I love my house, it''s cute, and I take a lot of pride in making it the best it can be for what it is. And who''s to say I won''t come back as a princess in another life and live in a palace any damn way!

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 1/16/2006 4:39:56 PM
Author: Matatora

if I don’t get into grad school that my credit will be a major issue while looking for housing and perhaps employment.

Amen to that! God I''m terrified of not getting in...at least I''m not an english major (french and arabic lit) so I''m a *marginally* more marketable person in the real world. You hear in March-ish from baylor, right?

I do the exact same thing with my card. Both my parents and my stepmother were in debt up to their ears, living without insurance, etc. I NEVER want to do that, ever. My two biggest fears with money are not having decent food on the table/roof over the head and not having health or car insurance.

Re: Ladykemma--

Yeah, when he''s ready he will do that with his parents. HOWEVER, me trying to force it would be about the worst idea in the world. Right now he handles it by having enough money in storage so that if they pull a stunt he can handle it. Bit of a Faustian bargain for the penn degree so he can then have the leverage to do whatever the hell he wants in life.

 

[Scintillating]

My FI is a beginning attorney - he went to an excellent school and was on the dean's list 5 semesters out of 6.
He does not come from money - and put himself through school and owes $160,000 in student loans, undergrad and graduate.
Now, in my opinion a well educated attorney should be able to support himself right?
He is now looking for jobs, and has received offers of (*get this*) $28,000 and $32,000.
His loan payments alone are 600 a month - fortunately he has no credit card debit. We live in the Boston metro area - and with housing and health care costing what it does here - How the hell are we supposed to accomplish anything? I think you all really don't understand exactly how tough it is *NOW* for twentysomethings. We don't want a mansion, we just want to move out of our parent's homes!

Yes. He did use loan money to buy me my e-ring stone. I asked him over and over again if this was a good use of the money or what he wanted - and implored him to spend the money on something else, like a car, but he refused he wanted to do that for me. I paid for the setting from my hard earned savings. It was a team effort and I'm very proud of it.

The standard of living is taking an ENORMOUS dive in this country.
In my parents generation it was no longer possible for one income to support a household.
In my generation - things are looking A LOT worse! Have some compassion folks.

Scintillating...

 

[MrsFrk]

I agree that parents dropping the ball on educating their children about financial issues is a big problem.
I was raised in a wealthy area of Northern California (though we were poor). I have friends who were spoiled brats, their parents paid their way until they finished their B.A. or Master's and then....BUH BYE! You're a grown up now, go work it out. There was no gradual maturation. This seems very common, no wonder people are just cluleless about money!

My husband and I have both been on our own since about age 15. We've never been given a hand by anyone. What Mara said is key- we worked like mad, scrimped to an unbelievable degree, and purchased an income property via V.A. repo when we were 21. This was when I was making 9 bucks and hour, and him 10. Our property was in another state, but within a few years we were able to leverage our equity into buying a home in California, at the height of the dot com craziness (which we did not benefit from, it just made life more expensive for us.)

Those years of deprivation SUCKED. BIG TIME.
Going out to eat was McDonalds, or Una Mas if we were feeling really reckless. We shared one 1980 Celica.
Meanwhile, my friends were going to school, driving new cars, taking vacations to Europe.
Somedays the injustice of it all would drive me to tears.

So now I'm 30, and just getting around to my college education.
But my husband and I are financially secure and independent.
If we don't go insane, we will be able to retire in 10-ish years.
My rich-kid friends are drowning in debt, and hell bent on acquiring more.

Funny thing is, I kind of went on a bender a year or so ago.
We could finally afford things that I thought I coveted.
Ironically, buying those things left me feeling hollow and like a sucker.
So I sold them on e-bay, and now I'm back to normal.
But it was nice to have the opportunity.

 

[Dancing Fire]

i ''ll be the first to admit,i''am terrible when it comes to saving money

i don''t have a LV habit like some girls here

one of my many bad habit is....i wouldn''t blink an eye buying a $1,500 imported japanese koi fish that i like.

yes...we will pay for our daughter''s college tuition through grad school (if they make it

) i look at it this way,if we don''t paid for their education now,they will blow the money on some stupid things,after we kick the bucket.

 

[MrsFrk]

I met a veterinary surgeon once whose speciality was koi.
People would ship their fish all the way from Japan for him to operate on (he was in CA)

I see nothing wrong with parents supporting their children through college...but it must be coupled with some good parenting, and the kid must be allowed to make mistakes and mature.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/16/2006 5:13:05 PM
Author: Sparkster

I fear for today''s children. So many parents spoil their children. They are given so much without having earning it. It didn''t hurt me to save and wait for the luxury items that I wanted in life. Look at today''s children - they all have mobile phones (who pays their bills? - the parents!), they have ipods, they have designer clothes. They will want to continue having these sort of things as they become adults and the only way most of them will get it is by going into debt.

yep....bunch of spoil BRATS.

they just don''t know it.

 

[glitterkitty]

This is a fascinating thread, and I've been reading with interest (no pun intended) the views on CC. Here in the UK we have the highest level of personal debt in Europe, and it continues to grow seemingly without any slow down. One of the worst forms of credit that people have over here are store cards that routinely charge around 28% APR. Having worked in retail i know the pressure that sales assisants are put under to encourage people (especially young people) to take out these ridiculously expensive cards when they can't really can't afford them.

I fell foul of the credit trap in my early twenties - my parents didn't give me an allowance and rarely bought me anything, so when I began working and was offered credit, I went a little crazy. My husband and I bought our house when we were both 23 and he was studying for his degree part-time. Fortunately at that time in the UK, tuition fees were paid for. I realised that my spending was not helping us, so cut up my cards and have only ever lived out of our current account since - even when I became a stay at home mum and things were pretty tough. We are fortunate that our house has quadrupled in value since we bought it - but we have no desire to cash in and leave an area that we happy in. Having been through times when I worried about paying bills and buying food, I really really don't want to go back there by taking out a huge mortgage.

I do think it important that you are able to treat yourself from time to time - with whatever it is that takes your fancy. My vices are jewellry and handbags, my DH buys rare records from all over the world, but we don't spend money on fancy holidays and our car is 6 years old. We also have free healthcare in the UK, so we can make a choice if we want to take out private healthcare - my husbands latest trip to the dentist for a filling and tooth extraction cost less than £30 sterling!

Enjoy your life, enjoy spending money if you can afford it, but don't let yourself get into that awful place where you dread the mail arriving or the phone ringing - talk to the professionals if you think you are going to have problems repaying what you owe.

 

[perry]

Scintillating raises some interesting points that I think indicate part of the problem:


He does not come from money - and put himself through school and owes $160,000 in student loans, undergrad and graduate.

Now, in my opinion a well educated attorney should be able to support himself right?

He is now looking for jobs, and has received offers of (*get this*) $28,000 and $32,000.


Might I ask... Did your FI research what the average lawyer made before deciding to persue a law education? I did that back in the early 1990''s when I was downsized out of my chosen field and others indicated that I would be a good lawyer. Most lawyers do not get good paying jobs. Never have - never will. I decided that it would not be financially worthwhile to persue a law degree.

One of the failings of the US education system is that their end product is to "educate" people as if education is in itself a high value comodity - its not. Unfortunately, they fail to teach people to think (if they did most people would realize the problems with modern US education).

While it is true that the average college grad will make more money than a High Scool Grad - there have been an increasing number of studies that indicate that with a few exceptions (ususallly technical educations - but don''t count on that either) that a comparison of the extra value of the job you can get does not pay for the cost of a college education.

Another truism: Most "A" students end up working for "B" student managers who work for "C" student business owners.

The US education system is not teaching people the US economic system - so people are generally set up to fail when they exit the process.


The standard of living is taking an ENORMOUS dive in this country.
In my parents generation it was no longer possible for one income to support a household.
In my generation - things are looking A LOT worse! Have some compassion folks.
I would disagree with that. I presume that I am in the same generation as your parents. Most of my age group do in fact depend on 2 or 3 income households to "support" the family.

But lets put that into perspective: When I grew up the average sized home in my community was perhaps 1100 - 1200 Sq Ft. The 2000+ Sq Ft houses were considered mansions. I personally grew up in a 960 Sq Ft house and I have 7 brothers and sistes.

Most of my generation built and lived in houses that are 2500+ Sq Ft. I don''t even believe you can build a less than 2000 Sq Ft house in my home community now. 3000 Sq ft houses and larger are common now.

That is a huge expansion in the standard of living. How much cheaper would the houses of my parents generation cost? They also would not need so much furnature and multiple TV''s (etc).

Somehow it now infringes on kids to have to share bedrooms. I, and many of my clasemates, grew up in houses where there were "boys" and "girls" rooms (I even know a few who sharred their rooms with their sister(s) or brother(s) ). What an expansion in the standard of living.

When I grew up a key component of our diet came from the family garden and food animals we raised (rabbits) and things we could harvest from the woods. Most people today won''t do that. Note that I lived in a good sized town - not on a farm. Gardens were common.

At the same time there are good paying jobs - and not so good paying jobs. That''s always been the case. I am not convinced that there really are that less good paying jobs. The problem is that many people focus on the lifestye of people with good paying jobs - and feel that they must also have that lifestyle.

Most families had one car, one telephon in the house, and the list goes on and on.

I suspect that people who live to the standard of living from the past can do OK on a single income. The problem is that the standard of living has vastly increased and job incomes has not.


Perry

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 1/17/2006 6:57:46 AM
Author: perry

One of the failings of the US education system is that their end product is to ''educate'' people as if education is in itself a high value comodity - its not. Unfortunately, they fail to teach people to think (if they did most people would realize the problems with modern US education).


While it is true that the average college grad will make more money than a High Scool Grad - there have been an increasing number of studies that indicate that with a few exceptions (ususallly technical educations - but don''t count on that either) that a comparison of the extra value of the job you can get does not pay for the cost of a college education.


Another truism: Most ''A'' students end up working for ''B'' student managers who work for ''C'' student business owners.

I''m going to have to ask where these studies are coming from, because I haven''t seen any of them..most the people I know fall into one of three categories:

going to a state school for anywhere from 2-10,000 yr
going to a private school for 30-40,000
going to an out of state public for 12-15K


Now, who is making the most money right out of college? NOT the engineers, the "technical" education, although they tend to find a secure job. The people who went to my school, the most expensive of the bunch, majored in (generally) a humanities subject such as economics or political science and are getting payed 90,000 a year starting to consult with Mackenzie or Baine. The business school kids seem to do quite well too.

The public school guys, at least where I went to high school, do fine, but don''t get the big-paying recruiters popping by their doorstep and giving them thousands of dollars in signing bonuses. As with Tiffany''s, some schools have a "name"--and it is part hype and part valid.

As for the a/b/c bit---Well, excluding the president--isn''t this just an urban legend or one of those statistcs you find in magazines? While I can see the connection in that "c" students supposedly don''t follow the leader well and make better leaders themselves, in my experiance a lot of bad students are just plain lazy, not better leaders.

I had the opportunity to go to college for free with a laptop and a trip to Europe each year in my home state (alabama) and I turned it down. Was this foolish? Was it a bad investment? I believe if I had needed to put in triple the amount in debt that I ended up with it would have been--as with everything, it is a cost-benefit analysis. However, with my chosen career path (professor) it will help me immensely to come from the school that I do. It''s not a garantee, but it helps a lot. It also allowed me to major in the humanities with some measure of insurance that a degree in literature from my school would still land me a decently paying job bc of the name on the degree. And I''m not even talking Harvard recognition status--several people I know have greaduated from Harvard and gotton jobs they were completely unqualified for bc of the name on the diploma!

I would disagree that the entire educational system does not teach you to think. I had that experiance in high school and noticied a differance when I came here. Perhaps I have been lucky with my professors, but I HAVE learned how to think through problems ( I assume you are referenceing critical thinking here). Resarch and independant thinking are encouraged, and the number of student owned businesses around campus is staggering.

I do go through periodic agonies of wondering if my education means anything other than being able to talk prettily about culture in several languages. Not everyone NEEDS to go to college as the current craze seems to be--some people would be happier in trade school (my brother is, for example).

Allright, before I go into my thoughts on economics, civics, "needed" education for enfranchisement, and How to Fix American Schools without turning into the French or British and yanking kids childhoods away while still maintaining a huge ass unemployment rate....


I have to go do arabic homework

ma''a salaama!

 

[rainbowtrout]

re: standard of living--

I''m going to have to agree with perry on this one--inflation outpaces cost of standard of living, and people used to make do on a lot less, although one would have to check the numbers to make sure this is true. Seems right, though.

I''m not sure about the wood rabbits now though, pollution and whatnot being what it is. I suppose they aren''t worse than antibiotic filled chickens...

 

[diamondsrock]

Scintillating - I feel for your FI if that''s all he can get for a yearly salary. I thought an attorney would command a much higher salary as well. Then again, I don''t know anything about attorneys so that was just an assumption. I live in Mass. so I know how expensive things are here. It''s crazy the cost of living and now seems like everything is going up (electricity, food, heating oil, gas, etc.....) Fortunately we bought our house before the market exploded but I have a friend who is trying to get in and the prices are insane. People just can''t afford to buy houses anymore around here unless they are in high paying jobs. It''s very depressing situation but I"m hoping it will change. One thing I know is I don''t understand how anyone can get by with one salary in this area. We can barely make it on two salaries!

I personally have experience in the college degree = low paying job problem. Majored in psychology which seemed like a good idea - they always tell you to pick a major which you "like" and "are interested in". What I wish they had said was to pick a major you enjoy and is marketable in the job sector. Once I got out with my bachelors there were very few jobs available to me so I felt worthless when the job which related to my field didn''t work out (I was working with the mentally retarted who had behavior issues, very challenging work). I figured I would need a master''s degree to get a job I would enjoy but I didn''t want to go back to school so I basically feel like I wasted 4 years at college. I''m working in a totally different field now - accounting. I am of course entry level but I enjoy it. Not enough to go back to school for it but it pays the bills. Any time I talk to someone who is in college I tell them to take the time to research the job opportunities in the field they are interested in and as petty as it sounds find out what they pay. It is something which should be mandatory as far as I''m concerned. But in my case I didn''t do it and now I''m paying the price.

I''m in my thirties and I see some other people my age living lavish lifestyles and I just assume either their husbands have high paying jobs (which mine doesn''t) or they are in a boatload of debt. Sometimes I find myself thinking "why do I even care?" but it''s the natural tendency to compare yourself with others I guess. We try very hard to live within our means which has been harder lately with all the increases in the cost of living. I do get jeaous sometimes when I see stay at home mothers driving expensive SUV''s living in mansions when I''ve been a working mother driving used cars all these years but that''s part of life I guess. I''ve always considered myself in the "have not" category but I and am grateful for the things I do have.

 

[allycat0303]

Perry, I think you''ve hit an important point....

Maybe this is part of my asian mentality, but my parents have always told me, "Don''t pick a career that you love, pick a career that you like, that is going to make a good living". My boyfriend is an electrical engineer, now this is a job that (in Quebec) the average salary is $35,000, which is really scary. But he has some major, awesome social/business sauvy which propelled him to the top of the company pile within 4 years. So he was lucky (also a lot of hard work factored in, but here we are). Although while he was in school, my parents were afraid that he would "starve in the street" as many engineers are unable to find jobs in Quebec.

As for me, I have always wanted to be a doctor (so it''s not entirely a money a decision), so when I finish school it''s a stable career choice too, so no worries there.

I think that people choosing a field today should not automatically assume that a college degree is going to bring home lots and lots of income...I had a friend that use to make fun of technical programs, and 5 years after he graduated he is STILL a sales person in a sports store. So I think choices in some fields (in Quebec we have a few where the market is just SATURATED) will almost assure that you have a hard time finding a job, and even a worst time finding a high paying job. I think kids need to be really aware of the market (and not just based on second hand vague info), and really plugged into their career choice, or they might end up with lots of student debt and no way of paying it. I have some friends with phD in Piano, that declared bankrupt several times. Unfortunatly in Quebec student loans are government based, so you can''t declare bankruptcy and not pay them....so she is in some major, deep poop..

 

[njc]

I agree that kids need to be educated in what a job field holds and should pick a career that will provide like Perry and Alley have said. BUT i have to disagree that lawyers never make money. I think it is one of those fields that you have to "pay your dues" a little more than others... earn trust and respect. That side of the job isnt always seen, esp on TV (Boston Legal, L&O, etc), and it was never even seen growing up in my house...

My father is a retired lawyer, had/has a fantastic practice (i say has because he still holds his license and will represent close friends/family), well respected in the community and holds several board positions throughout the area. His partners are the same exact way. My parents friends whom are lawyers have great practices and several have moved on to being judges.

My brother decided to become a lawyer, he wanted to continue the practice that my father started. Like Scintillating''s BF, since graduating he has made next to nothing for 5 years. I was acutally making more money (albeit not that much more) doing graphic design. He didnt understand, he was frustraded. He was having to live at home with our parents. It was embarassing for him, even more so being in his 30s.

What my brother nor I ever saw, was the struggle that my father, his partners and all of their friends had when they first started out. What i think many people overlook is that no one ever starts out on top, no matter what your job field.

Now 6 years since graduating, my brother is finally starting to get a decent salarey and earning the respect and trust of the community. And by decent salarey i mean one that has allowed him to move out of our parents house and start saving to buy a house and to really start paying back his student loans, not run out and buy anything and everything he has ever wanted.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 1/17/2006 10:15:52 AM
Author: njc
. BUT i have to disagree that lawyers never make money. I think it is one of those fields that you have to ''pay your dues'' a little more than others... earn trust and respect. That side of the job isnt always seen, esp on TV (Boston Legal, L&O, etc), and it was never even seen growing up in my house...

This is true of many professions. I see some of the kids who interview w/ hubby. They have the most unrealistic expectation of what salary is being paid. They have no clue that one has to put in their pound of flesh for a few years, learn the business & try to come away with a specialty niche that will propel you into a higher income bracket. It''s really not rocket science. Those "kids" never get hired. It''s the one''s that don''t ask what the salary is upfront & DO ask what opportunities lie ahead. I can remember one such kid. He made less money than all of his friends. He saw opportunities in the horizon w/ hubby''s company. He now makes well into 6 figures in about 5 years. Way more than his friends who were only shopping salary.

Oh, and another thing, people exagerate what their salary is - especially upon graduation.

I hope this doesn''t sound trite. If you can see it, you will do it. Don''t think - I could never be that wealthy. Think - who can I accumulate my own wealth. You can''t have a goal to attain some comfort financially without being able to see that as a goal.

I was fortunate that my parents paid for the bulk of my education. I did have a small student loan that I took out to give me some spending/saving money. I used that little bit to create more wealth. Hubby''s trust fund (don''t assume anything about people with trust funds) paid for his education & nothing more. He had to petition every year, keep his grades a certain level & they would only pay for a state school. He always felt like it was begging. Also, don''t be proud about scholarships. There are so many dopey ones out there - my neice had a small one for grandfather graduates of a university. Some people have church ones. The money is out there if you go look. Not all are financially based. Some are crazy.

To add, we struggled our first years. I can remember waiting for the sales on chicken legs for .29 lb. We had mac and cheese night at least once a week. I look back & don''t see that we were deprived. I look back and see how we worked together to build some financial stability. It can be attained if you think it can, if you are willing to work for it and delay some satisfications that aren''t going to get you anywhere.

Just like debt, wealth is also accumulated.

 

[Mara]

" What I wish they had said was to pick a major you enjoy and is marketable in the job sector."

____________

Actually I composed a post last nite about this very thing after reading how some people are having problems making ends meet with college degrees and debt from low paying jobs. But I didn't know if the thread would take that direction so I didn't post it.

But the jist was that I knew in college I wasn't going to do some degree that wouldn't make me any money. No offense to people who have these types of degrees, but I never got why someone would do a history degree or social studies or something and then go work in high-tech or accounting or something. That is SO prevalent around here. What do history majors actually do if you don't go into education? Wouldn't it have made more sense to get a marketable degree and then take classes on the side for the 'fun' stuff? I remember when I was in college I worked as a temp in various high-tech companies and 3/4 of the people I asked about their degrees had something OTHER than the career path they were on. That always baffled me, I remember it to this day.

So many people I went to school with were getting the 'fun' degree that they liked vs the one that would make them the bucks. I LOVED to write and took some writing classes in college but I knew there was no way I was going to end up a writer, there was no chance I'd 'make' it and it was very unstable and inconsistent even if you did make it. So I went into Business/Marketing because it was interesting and I knew that it was fairly easy to get a gig in that market around here. My first job was $28k out of college and I was so disappointed but within ~5 years in my field, I'd doubled that.

So part of it is what career path you chose as to how much money or disposable income you have. Almost everyone I know came out of college and got the $28k a year job but they weren't going to languish there, I moved onto my second higher paying job within 9 months after getting my first job.

I would have loved to continue in writing but it just wasn't feasible from a 'take care of myself' perspective for the future, I had to make sure that I was in a field where I could make sure my ends more than met and my bills were more than paid. But it seems alot of kids in college didn't think like that, esp tons of my college-mates and I think part of it was that their parents paid for their college and didn't push them to get an education in anything marketable, just 'fun' whereas I paid for my own education and I knew that I was going to have to pay that back at some point. My two cents but I totally agree re: career choice!

IMO in high school there should be the money management class and also some sort of career path advisor (i think there typically is one but in my school they didn't do much!!) that can also advise you on the pros and cons of various fields. As kids or teenagers, you are such a 'sponge' for knowledgde that can head you in the RIGHT direction rather than the wrong and so many parents and adults around you don't seem to realize that sometimes.

 

[Hest88]

So part of it is what career path you chose as to how much money or disposable income you have.

So totally agree with Mara''s post, and this from an English major who, if I''d known then what I know now, would have chosen a different major. I was able to funnel my skills and experience into a decent job, but I know I was lucky. I''m a great believer in education for education''s sake, but there''s no denying that it''s a luxury. People with trust funds (or the 1% who have genius-level artistic talents) can afford to do purely academic degrees, but for the majority of people--who expect to support themselves and their families--it''s unrealistic to go to college without thinking about how their degree will contribute to a career.

 

[decodelighted]

On the "safe path" vs. "dream path" topic ... I don't really believe there is a "safe path" these days. There certainly are "saFER paths" than the arts or whatever else people tend to see as trivial or irresponsible.

I'd hate to live in a world where students got coralled in high school or college and were scared into choosing only "practical" majors etc. That's a world without films or new music, or people to play the old music or newspapers etc.

The professional writers I know didn't really have a choice. They write because they HAVE to. They have no other skills. They could not "fit in" in sales or marketing or anything else. They are not social butterflies. "Artistic temperment" is a cliche for a reason.

The deal is, if you pursue less practical dreams - ya have to live with the consequences. I didn't whine about my lawyer sister & her speedboat to people who would say "told ya so". I kept those competitive feelings relatively private. Nor do I push my national credits or awards in *her* face when she's changing poopy diapers. To each his own.

I also think there's room enough for EVERYONE to indulge in dreams (& nurture their natural gifts). Even if you're professionally doing something else - if you love to write, or play an instrument, or take photographs, or act, or dabble in politics, etc ... there are outlets. One day I'm gonna do stand up comedy. Not for pay. Not as a profession ... but because I'd like to do it before I die. There are plenty of thrills in this world that don't put food on the table or sparklies on the bod - but make life a more exciting ride while we're on it!

ETA: for the record ... I went to a private university on 1/2 scholarship. Worked all the way through school & paid off loans for 10 years afterwards. They did prepare us to struggle, but at 18-20, you don't really know what that means and you've got PLENTY of faith in your abilities.

 

[Mara]

Deco, I don''t think that everyone should be corralled into doing anything, but bottom line is that many teens don''t know WHAT they want to do in the future and part of figuring that out should be about what''s in your heart. Do you just adore music and don''t care if you hardly make any money? Then follow your heart down the music path. Do you know you just want to be able to live comfortably and have some other pursuits but it would not kill you to wait to pursue them? Then do something more practical and marketable in your area.

Bottom line is that I don''t think alot of kids have those discussions on what you''d like to do NOW vs LATER and/or forever, or where you''d like to start and what you want to grow into.

Even Greg, who plays 3 instruments and loves music says he would never be a professional musician because unless you get into a perpetual symphony or orchestra or something (aka Ballet one) then you make really no money and it''s hard to get ahead and even THEN if you do get in with a permament gig, chances are you get bored playing the same things over and over and not having alot of artistic license. In his spare time he plays with various symphonies around the BayArea but because he chose a profession that make him good money, he doesn''t care that most of these are non-paying gigs or pay him $100 for 3 performances. He can do what he loves for free. But if he was that professional musician, he''d not be able to live off what some of these people pay or do not pay. So he has the best of both worlds. There doesn''t need to be a LACK of the creative in order to have a practical job, there is always time on the side to do what you love and have it not affect your bottom line IMO.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 1/17/2006 1:29:22 PM
Author: Mara
Bottom line is that I don''t think alot of kids have those discussions on what you''d like to do NOW vs LATER and/or forever, or where you''d like to start and what you want to grow into.

On this we agree 100%. I just hope enough kids, after those talks, are impulsive/driven/wanton enough to keep less practical/profitable professions going for future generations. At their own peril.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 1/17/2006 12:44:26 AM
Author: monarch64

I think no matter how much a person says (including myself) that they don't compare themselves to others, or care what others think about their lifestyle, deep down, we all can have feelings of insecurity and wonder whether we measure up.

Well, you're certainly entitled to believe what you want, of course. That doesn't make it so, though.

I can really understand why you'd want to believe that. It lets anyone who feels that way justify their feelings of being materialistic or insecure (i.e.; I'm not materialistic because I'm not the only one who compares; everybody does it.)

I'm sure it's a shock to some, but not everyone worries about keeping up with the Joneses. I really don't. I measure my security and my progress against where I think *I* should be, not where I fall relative to others.

I felt like I "measured" up when I finally mastered how to save money. I felt like I measured up when I no longer had to wait for payday to pay out my bills. I felt like I measured up when I gained control of money instead of letting it control me. All those things have nothing to do with anyone else; only with me.

I'm sure it's tough for some to believe....but I don't care who's ring is bigger than mine or who's is smaller. I don't care how elaborate or how humble someone else's house is compared to mine. When I wanted to buy a house, it wasn't because "everyone else has one"; it was with the goal of having stability and security and not wasting my money on rent.

I'm happy with what I have--not because it makes me "measure up" or not, but because it makes *me* happy. If tomorrow, all my friends upgraded to bigger houses----hooray for them. Not me - staying put.


I've never carried a designer handbag or worn designer shoes, and I'm not the least bit ashamed to say so. I just don't value them the way some others do. In fact, I'm so clueless about them that I wouldn't realize it if I was being socked on the head with one!

For those who value them, that's great---get them and enjoy them. I won't be offended by it; neither will I be impressed by it. Conversely, I know there are things I value that I'm sure others don't. That's also fine....if I enjoy them, that's all that matters. I don't worry about whether others approve or disapprove of my selections or indulgences.

There really are some people who are self-confident enough to march to their own drummers.

Don't misunderstand; I'm not saying people aren't *aware* of others have around them. I'm saying that folks like this don't use others' measuring sticks for themselves...you can be aware without feeling the need to compete or "keep up".

I'm aware that others have McMansions, of course, but I don't care, and it doesn't make me feel better or worse about what I have. I have what I've worked for and chosen because it makes ME happy....and that's all that matters to me.

 

[partgypsy]

This stuff has been on my mind recently. I have a 14 year old nephew whom I love dearly, but worry about. He is smart, does his homework, gets good grades, but spends his spare time playing video games or hanging out with his friends. Many of the kids in his school are more well off than him, so he does ask for expensive gifts and and feels deprived when he can''t get something that other kids have. He says he wants to go to college, but as he knows my brother can''t pay for his college education, also jokes he''d rather not be in debt maybe he''ll just get a job instead. Sometimes I wonder if he says that in hopes that someone will offer to pay for his education, but truthfully even the people in the family who he thinks are more well off (grandfather, me) can''t do that. I would like to get him thinking on what he can do on his behalf to make this happen.
I definitely think it''s worth it to get a college degree, but to do it smart, distinguish yourself so you can be eligible for financial aid (esp grants or scholarships) and make your time at college worthwhile, by learning translatable skills. I feel there is alot of stuff I want to tell him, and am starting a letter so hopefully can begin an open dialog with him about all kinds of issues.
I am fortunate he feels comfortable enough with me he will open up and talk about his regular life with me, but I haven''t confronted these heavy issues with him yet.

main things so far

don''t smoke
get a college degree (subparts to this one)
save more than you earn!

 

[Caribou]

I was one of those youths in debt...still am in dept (not really a youth anymore) but working on getting it paid down. It's SO easy to get into debt....I have two major bills that will be paid off this year, I can't wait!!! But defend those who 'were young and stupid'... it is really easy to suddenly be in debt between $5k and $10k especially when you get all these pre-approved credit cards apps in the mail. You take one out thinking 'I will pay this off each month' next thing you know you are $5k in debt. It's one of learn from your mistakes things in life.

I didn't have the best examples as far as money responsibilty. My mom made me feel guilty each time I spent money...to this day I sometimes feel guilty when I buy an essential (clothes). You'd think that guilt would work but it didn't....it did the opposite. My dad wasn't any better, I could call him up and ask him for money and he'd send it. At 50 years old my dad filed for bankrupcty...not at all my fault, his own. But another example of bad money management. I'm not at all blaming my parents but I do wish that they taught me better in that way. I think of all the money I've wasted in life and could just kick myself.

My fiance is very good with his money. He's 25, owns his own house, pays of his credit cards each month, has a 401k that triples mine, is a practical thinker when is comes to spending money (that bulldog puppy we both wanted, if it were up to me we'd have it), he paid for my ring in cash (at the astonishment of the jeweler). The majority of our wedding we will pay for which I put a budget of $6k on. Instead of getting married in Oct of this year we are waiting another 7 months so we don't do into our marriage in debt. It gives me a safe feeling for our future as husband and wife and future parents. When we buy our house, we will get a house that we love but also that we can responibly afford, it will probably be smaller than our friends house but I would rather have money to spend on needs such as, food, clothes, kids college tuition, etc or fun things vacations, nights out whenever we want to, safe cars to drive...then live in a huge house that all our extra cash is going towards.

Yes, I still have some debt to pay off and it seem like it will never be paid off but that's what I intend to work the next 1 year 4 months and 10 days on. Wish me luck!

 

[Rhapsody]

To Deco, Alj, Mara, Monarch, MrsFrk and all the others who I know have been where I am I really appreciate your advice. As you can obviously tell the past years have just been extremely financially difficult and its frustrating that even now that we''re making the money it''s going to take several more years to pay off the damaage done in years past. And this too we shall overcome

I totally agree about people viewing college as just a place to go study something fun and "learn about yourself". Both have value in their own right but I always viewed college as job training, took the classes that would increase my marketability, took extra labs for hands on experience, did several unpaid internships just to get out there and get some experience. I actually tried to lobby the biology department to have some sort of class or seminar on the job market, what employers look for, where the jobs are etc. They said there was no student interest for something like that

Its really annoying because most of our friends are in essentially the same fields (computers for the boys, all some sort of humanities for the girls) and because they didnt have the weird financial issues my boyfriend and I did they all own their own homes now and while none live extravagently they are all comfortable. While I sit in our 300 square foot apartment thinking "We could be where they are if X hadn''t gone wrong". I guess its the sadness of lost opportunity I''m feeling now more than anything else.

Scintillating, I hope you enjoy your engagement ring. My boyfriend took a second job doing contract work to earn the money to buy mine, he insisted he wanted to get me exactly what I wanted despite anything I could say. He told me that he wanted to start out by showing to me that dreams do come true

 

[allycat0303]

Rhapsody,

I originally graduated with a BSc. in biology and did an Msc in biology, and I know how difficult it can be with a Bsc. or even MSc in Biology. I think you are doing the right thing, getting as much hands on experience as you can. My supervisor told me once, you start off with internship, anything to get your feet wet and before you know it you''re getting better positions. That''s the way to get a job in bio. It''s a field where experience counts for a lot (and of course advanced degrees never hurt). You''ll get there!

 

[Rhapsody]

Date: 1/17/2006 5:45:46 PM
Author: allycat0303
Rhapsody,


I originally graduated with a BSc. in biology and did an Msc in biology, and I know how difficult it can be with a Bsc. or even MSc in Biology. I think you are doing the right thing, getting as much hands on experience as you can. My supervisor told me once, you start off with internship, anything to get your feet wet and before you know it you're getting better positions. That's the way to get a job in bio. It's a field where experience counts for a lot (and of course advanced degrees never hurt). You'll get there!

Ally, making the choice between medicine and research was so hard for me. I wish I had your confidence in what I want to do.

I started out persuing a BS in psychology, focusing on behavioural neuroscince, and as I took more bio classes I jumped ships but ended up finishing both my BS in psych and a BS in bio (I had a ridiculous number of credit hours). The way my school charged tuition everything after 18 credit hours was essentially free so I would take 21-24 credit hours every semester. It was the only way I could afford all the classes I wanted to take. I was going to do a masters, but I couldnt afford to stay in school any longer and I was realising I wanted to do research and would need a PhD anyhow. We're hoping that by fall of 2007 we'll have our debt paid off and enough money saved that I can go to grad school. Now I just have to get in!

 

[ursulawrite]

Regarding attorneys, they can make huge salaries within the right field. My husband is a corporate lawyer and partners at his firm are pulling in over $2m a year. On the flip side, his cousin is an assistant DA and makes around $50k per year, in NYC. So, it just depends...

 

[Mara]

On the marketable vs dream path as well...I have always done the practical thing re: career, recently (1.5 years ago) I went into sales and it's not entirely stable but the rewards can be huge and it's fun...I am only really able to do this because of where we were at the time and able to take a hit or miss risk like this. It has paid off, and I am glad I did it, but I would not have done it out of college or anything like that. Part of it is a mental risk as well!

That said, I often dream about the future, where hopefully we have made and saved enough to be wealthy enough to do the things we really want to do, aka retire a bit early so we can still do things like travels. I would love to open a bookstore or a flower shop where I didn't have to depend on the $$ it brought in for mortgage, Greg would love to just tinker on his cars and play his music all day long. Hopefully one day we'll be able to do all that and more when we are still fairly young, and it would be because we did take the right career paths when we were younger and made the right choices.

So I don't tend to agree that if less people go into artistic or more risky fields that those will just cease to exist, I know alot of people who keep their 'passions' on the side but still make time for them in their lives. I guess my point is that it's not black or white. You can be in sales or marketing and still write books on the side or paint art, or sculpt or write, etc. It just doesn't have to be your main life for it to be viable, IMO. And to me it doesn't mean that you are more 'hungry' for it if you are just doing that. I have a few hobbies that I LOVE to do, on the weekends or the evenings...but I could never imagine wanting to make an actual living off them, talk about draining the fun really fast...depend on my gardening (or landscaping skills) or similar to pay the mortgage? Yikes!

 

[princessv]

Date: 1/17/2006 2:07:25 AM
Author: Scintillating
My FI is a beginning attorney - he went to an excellent school and was on the dean's list 5 semesters out of 6.
He does not come from money - and put himself through school and owes $160,000 in student loans, undergrad and graduate.
Now, in my opinion a well educated attorney should be able to support himself right?
He is now looking for jobs, and has received offers of (*get this*) $28,000 and $32,000.
His loan payments alone are 600 a month - fortunately he has no credit card debit. We live in the Boston metro area - and with housing and health care costing what it does here - How the hell are we supposed to accomplish anything? I think you all really don't understand exactly how tough it is *NOW* for twentysomethings. We don't want a mansion, we just want to move out of our parent's homes!

Yes. He did use loan money to buy me my e-ring stone. I asked him over and over again if this was a good use of the money or what he wanted - and implored him to spend the money on something else, like a car, but he refused he wanted to do that for me. I paid for the setting from my hard earned savings. It was a team effort and I'm very proud of it.

The standard of living is taking an ENORMOUS dive in this country.
In my parents generation it was no longer possible for one income to support a household.
In my generation - things are looking A LOT worse! Have some compassion folks.

Scintillating...

Scintallating...I understand your situation more than you know..in fact I feel like I am facing that right now.

By the time I get out I'll owe a little less than your fiance but very close loan number wise. I am afraid that I will not be able to find something good and the loan payments will kick in. In fact, I'm thinking about living with my parents for at least a year so I can pay off some of those loans and save for a house.

Does your fiance's school have loan forgiveness if he goes into public interest/gov't jobs? I do know that Boston, MA is a very over saturated area in the legal field.

Yes, my fiance and I paid for my e-ring mostly out of student loans too. Fortunately thats pretty much the only 'extravagent' thing that we have spent money on and I don't have credit card debit (except what was generated by displacement from the hurricane ie a new laptop, flight tickets, clothes necessities) and he doesn't either but all in all its still a headache.

I was told by an accountant by the way that buying an e-ring out of student loans isn't a bad idea actually the interest rates are usually much lower that is if one can't pay for a ring outright.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/17/2006 3:15:05 PM
Author: Caribou
I was one of those youths in debt...still am in dept (not really a youth anymore) but working on getting it paid down. It''s SO easy to get into debt....I have two major bills that will be paid off this year, I can''t wait!!! But defend those who ''were young and stupid''... it is really easy to suddenly be in debt between $5k and $10k especially when you get all these pre-approved credit cards apps in the mail. You take one out thinking ''I will pay this off each month'' next thing you know you are $5k in debt. It''s one of learn from your mistakes things in life.

Yes, I still have some debt to pay off and it seem like it will never be paid off but that''s what I intend to work the next 1 year 4 months and 10 days on. Wish me luck!

yes....i was young and stupid.

now.... i''m just old and stupid, waste money on different kinds of things.