2014 Health Insurance Premiums - Ouch!

[packrat]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

 

[momhappy]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

Right - and the bolded part goes right back to what I initially posted in this thread. Some members here have posted about how they have little (if any) compassion/sympathy for the wealthy, and yet that's exactly what they expect the wealthy to have - compassion and sympathy for those less fortunate. It's hypocritical. It's an "I don't feel sorry for you, but I expect that you should feel sorry for me" mentality. Simply because someone has money, they should be held to higher standards/expectations than those who don't.
I understand what you're saying, though, packrat, but that mentality does seem a bot odd to me. No matter how you slice, it's tough for all us - just in different ways. Owning a business has meant that we buy our own health insurance. When I had my babies we had awesome coverage, but our monthly premiums were SUPER high. We have a more modest plan now and even though we pay less, the coverage is fairly crappy. I shudder to think about paying more and getting less yet still....

 

[SB621]

...

But seriously, I have a question about turn around time to see a doctor in France or Australia. You read about all these situations where when you have socialized medicine you can wait forever to get in to see a doctor. Is that true?

In the US military we have socialized medicine. If my kids are sick I have always gotten them an appt same day. If emergencies within the hour. Sometimes we are assigned to the same doctor, sometimes not- we see whoever is availble. If we need something above and beyond that requires a specialist that can be a sometimes be a pain pending where you live. For example in my current area my son needs a specialist to look at his joints. Our doctor said it probably wasnt' necessary but she would rather be safe then sorry. The only person that Tricare would refer us out to was about 2 hours away. While other doctors were closer they didnt' accept our insurance. So we drove the 2 hours. Wasn't a big deal since in the last 8 years of having Tricare this was the first problem.

The only other thing ppl complain about is sometimes there can be a wait for standard procedures. Say for example someone in your family needs a non- emergency procedure like wisdom teeth removed, a vasectomy, or sinus surgery etc. You can wait 4-8 weeks till your surgery date. However, once again since it is non-emergency it isn't a big deal. But when ppl are new to the military and used to get instant gratification with their health insurance they have a hard time adjusting.

 

[justginger]

...

But seriously, I have a question about turn around time to see a doctor in France or Australia. You read about all these situations where when you have socialized medicine you can wait forever to get in to see a doctor. Is that true?

In Canada we have socialized medicine.

If I am sick, I can walk into the clinic a block from my house and see a doctor within one hour. Or I can make an appointment with my family doctor for the same day if I want. Some people do not have family doctors because of shortages in some cities, but there are clinics always available for anyone and they are free to use and fast.

If I have need of additional medical care beyond simply seeing a doctor, I will be referred to a specialist. There is a triage system, so urgent medical issues get seen first. This means if my doctor thinks I have a brain tumor, I will recieve treatment that same day and be airlifted to the best cancer hospital in my area. I have seen this happen with a few people -- immediate treatment that is the top level of care available. No waiting ever in cases where immediate care is required. No claims denied. No bills later on.

If the issue is not life or death, there can be waits. For example, when I needed a mole checked by a skin doctor -- not urgently, just as a "cover your a$$" thing -- I waited 2 months for the referral. For a OB consult -- non-urgent -- when I was pregnant I waited three days for the appointment.

Many older people complain about the triage system because it does mean that people must wait for hip replacements or knee replacements, sometimes for a long time.

But if you need care urgently, you get it immediately. No questions asked.

The anti-socialized medical care propaganda makes me laugh. It is so ridiculous, frankly, I have no idea how anyone buys it.

This. Every once in a blue moon you hear of someone who really should be moved up in the list o' priorities, but hasn't been for one reason or another. Then lots of whining occurs - the local press covers it, Today Tonight covers it, whatever. Then it's resolved and all is well until the next case happens 6 months later. A very, very small risk of waiting time issues in Australia.

I see my GP same day or next day. My well woman exams book approximately 3 weeks out, but if I were having actual reproductive issues, Family Planning would get me in that week (a govt facility - $30 for a year membership, all of your Paps, breast checks, birth control scripts, STD testing, pregnancy tests, sexual counceling, colposcopies, whatever included for that price!).

Specialists can book out a bit in advance. My dermatologist is usually 6 weeks, my obgyn is 8ish weeks. Unless there's a real issue - again, they'll manipulate their schedules to fit you in if you, or they, think that more timely care is necessary. I've nabbed a same week appt for my derm in the past.

Urgent care? Straight away. Worst triage waiting times are no different than major cities in the States. You show up to the ER and you're not having a heart attack or bleeding out, you're going to wait. I think our average wait time at work, the last I heard, is 90-120 minutes. Waiting is no fun, but you have to allow limited staff during busy times the leeway necessary to attend te people who really ARE having heart attacks and bleeding out!

Alternatively, as I mentioned, you can purchase private cover, as cheap as $40/month for basic emergency without the side benefits of chiro, physio, dental, etc. Average would be closer to $100 for those benefits. And those plans get you checked into one of the premium private hospitals with zero wait. The last time I was in St John of God hospital, the triage room was like a ghost town. There was not one single person waiting. That being said, private cover is nice, and unnecessary. One of my expat friends here was only granted his PR, thus qualifying for Medicare cover, about 2 months ago. He recently seriously hurt his shoulder, spent an hour waiting in triage, and had everything taken care of that day - in a public hospital. ER visit, bloods taken, x rays taken, MRI done, casted up, full script for painkillers. $120 out of pocket, and that was for the painkillers - previous use of what was covered by Medicare made him feel 'off' so he opted for paying for different ones. All public hospital, all same day, all free.

Obviously socialized medicine can be implemented in a financially savvy manner. Australia's debt as a function of GDP is 25%, while the US is currently at 74%. There are obviously other expenses, that I personally find less important, eating away at the buying power of the States. A big one would start with I-, and end with -nvading foreign counties. It's all about priorities. Health of citizens is a necessity - find programs that are not, and start cut, cut, cutting.

 

[crown1]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

Let's try it another way. Alice and Barbara graduated and took different paths. Alice decided to take a job and work for a local company. She started her grownup life. Her salary was not top notch but it was enough for her to start her life on her own. Barbara choose to take a slightly different path and she got a post graduate degree and incurred a good bit of debt doing so. Barbara put things on hold and worked to graduate. After that she spent several years working 60-80 hour weeks working her way up in her field. Finally she decided to start a business of her own and was forced to take huge loans to make it happen. She had to worry whether she would make payroll and end up making a profit for several years. Meanwhile Alice continues to work in her chosen field and brings home her paycheck working forty hours a week. Several years later Barbara has made a success of her business and finally is making big bucks. The two women meet again at a reunion. Alice is furious at Barbara for flaunting her success. How unfair she has a successful business, beautiful clothing and lots of nice jewelry. No fair! That multimillionaire Barbara should not have all of that wealth. She needs to pay more so we don't have to chunk out our hard earned pay. We have so much less than she. She and others like her should pitch in more so we do not have to pay so much. Fortunately, no one whined or peed their pants. Just saying there are always many different sides to stories. Additionally I worry about the need to lie to get both cakes. Seriously don't you?

 

[packrat]

I don't really worry about it cuz yanno, we were like...seven? It's something we happen to find amusing now. Like when he'd scratch on his window screen at night and it always scared me. It's not like we have mental problems or are pathological liars now-you never did shit like that when you were a little kid? Argued over who had more in their cup even tho mom swore up and down they were equal? I thought it was a funny little side story, but apparently I need what, therapy? I should worry that my horrendous act of lying to get a treat could possibly be passed down to my children?

And, I am not Alice. I would not be like Alice. I have never been like Alice. I am not saying that every wealthy person on the planet needs to fork over all their wealth to everyone else. I am in no way shape or form a "wagon rider". Even tho in some ways we have qualified to ride in the wagon we do not. We're both busting our humps trying to pull the fecking thing. All I am saying is, if one group that has a lot is going to whine and bitch and moan, why can not another group that does not have a lot whine and bitch and moan? To my eyes, the group that does not have a lot, and not for lack of trying, has just as much reason/right to whine and bitch and moan but there is at times a feeling of well, then you should've tried harder, you should just do w/out more and more and more so that you can try to maaaaybe eek out a little bit more.

 

[ruby59]

Thank you Dreamer D. The reason I ask is that I remember there was a woman who used to post on Pricescope. I believe she was from Canada. She had a concern she might have cancer. I remember her telling us that she would have to wait months to have a biopsy. I vaguely remember the entire situation but it did scare me about socialized medicine.

 

[crown1]

I don't really worry about it cuz yanno, we were like...seven? It's something we happen to find amusing now. Like when he'd scratch on his window screen at night and it always scared me. It's not like we have mental problems or are pathological liars now-you never did shit like that when you were a little kid? Argued over who had more in their cup even tho mom swore up and down they were equal? I thought it was a funny little side story, but apparently I need what, therapy? I should worry that my horrendous act of lying to get a treat could possibly be passed down to my children?

And, I am not Alice. I would not be like Alice. I have never been like Alice. I am not saying that every wealthy person on the planet needs to fork over all their wealth to everyone else. I am in no way shape or form a "wagon rider". Even tho in some ways we have qualified to ride in the wagon we do not. We're both busting our humps trying to pull the fecking thing. All I am saying is, if one group that has a lot is going to whine and bitch and moan, why can not another group that does not have a lot whine and bitch and moan? To my eyes, the group that does not have a lot, and not for lack of trying, has just as much reason/right to whine and bitch and moan but there is at times a feeling of well, then you should've tried harder, you should just do w/out more and more and more so that you can try to maaaaybe eek out a little bit more.

I did not mean to indicate anything about your children. I actually did not know your story about the cakes was real. My story was not. My only point is there are many sides to look at. I did not mean to single you out, only responded to the scenario. I feel we have to realize that people are never going to be alike or see everything the same. We have to find a way of working with what we are dealt. Sometimes we can control things and sometimes not. I am in a very difficult time in my life. I am having a hard time dealing with things I can not control, it is not easy. It does not mean I should envy others who are not experiencing my hard time or begrudge them their happiness.

I personally think the current plan is not the right one but I have no control of that. My way of fixing the problem would not pit one against the other. But I am not a member of Congress nor the President so what I think doesn't mean a lot.

 

[momhappy]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

Let's try it another way. Alice and Barbara graduated and took different paths. Alice decided to take a job and work for a local company. She started her grownup life. Her salary was not top notch but it was enough for her to start her life on her own. Barbara choose to take a slightly different path and she got a post graduate degree and incurred a good bit of debt doing so. Barbara put things on hold and worked to graduate. After that she spent several years working 60-80 hour weeks working her way up in her field. Finally she decided to start a business of her own and was forced to take huge loans to make it happen. She had to worry whether she would make payroll and end up making a profit for several years. Meanwhile Alice continues to work in her chosen field and brings home her paycheck working forty hours a week. Several years later Barbara has made a success of her business and finally is making big bucks. The two women meet again at a reunion. Alice is furious at Barbara for flaunting her success. How unfair she has a successful business, beautiful clothing and lots of nice jewelry. No fair! That multimillionaire Barbara should not have all of that wealth. She needs to pay more so we don't have to chunk out our hard earned pay. We have so much less than she. She and others like her should pitch in more so we do not have to pay so much. Fortunately, no one whined or peed their pants. Just saying there are always many different sides to stories. Additionally I worry about the need to lie to get both cakes. Seriously don't you?

The bolded part is something that I was going to address in my last post too. There has been some discussion in this thread about flawed/broken systems and people who cheat those systems (welfare, disability, etc.). I mentioned that it sounds hypocritical to expect the wealthy to have compassion, when there seems to be a general lack of compassion for the wealthy. I suspect that mentality could contribute to the flawed systems and the people who choose to abuse them. If someone lacks compassion/sympathy, they might be more inclined to cheat the system because they feel that their actions are justified (the line of reasoning that there is lots of money out there, I don't feel sorry for wealthy people or government programs that are heavily funded by them, and therefore, it somehow makes it okay for me to cheat the system). In other words, so-and-so has lots of cakes, so it's okay for me to lie to get more because he has more and I don't feel sorry for him.... Don't get me wrong, I don't think that everyone cheats the system. Clearly, there are people out there who truly need assistance and they use the systems appropriately, but there are many flawed systems and many individuals who feel that it is okay to cheat the systems that were put in place to assist/help.

 

[cm366]

...

But seriously, I have a question about turn around time to see a doctor in France or Australia. You read about all these situations where when you have socialized medicine you can wait forever to get in to see a doctor. Is that true?

In Canada we have socialized medicine.

If I am sick, I can walk into the clinic a block from my house and see a doctor within one hour. Or I can make an appointment with my family doctor for the same day if I want. Some people do not have family doctors because of shortages in some cities, but there are clinics always available for anyone and they are free to use and fast.

If I have need of additional medical care beyond simply seeing a doctor, I will be referred to a specialist. There is a triage system, so urgent medical issues get seen first. This means if my doctor thinks I have a brain tumor, I will recieve treatment that same day and be airlifted to the best cancer hospital in my area. I have seen this happen with a few people -- immediate treatment that is the top level of care available. No waiting ever in cases where immediate care is required. No claims denied. No bills later on.

If the issue is not life or death, there can be waits. For example, when I needed a mole checked by a skin doctor -- not urgently, just as a "cover your a$$" thing -- I waited 2 months for the referral. For a OB consult -- non-urgent -- when I was pregnant I waited three days for the appointment.

Many older people complain about the triage system because it does mean that people must wait for hip replacements or knee replacements, sometimes for a long time.

But if you need care urgently, you get it immediately. No questions asked.

The anti-socialized medical care propaganda makes me laugh. It is so ridiculous, frankly, I have no idea how anyone buys it.

This. Every once in a blue moon you hear of someone who really should be moved up in the list o' priorities, but hasn't been for one reason or another. Then lots of whining occurs - the local press covers it, Today Tonight covers it, whatever. Then it's resolved and all is well until the next case happens 6 months later. A very, very small risk of waiting time issues in Australia.

I see my GP same day or next day. My well woman exams book approximately 3 weeks out, but if I were having actual reproductive issues, Family Planning would get me in that week (a govt facility - $30 for a year membership, all of your Paps, breast checks, birth control scripts, STD testing, pregnancy tests, sexual counceling, colposcopies, whatever included for that price!).

Specialists can book out a bit in advance. My dermatologist is usually 6 weeks, my obgyn is 8ish weeks. Unless there's a real issue - again, they'll manipulate their schedules to fit you in if you, or they, think that more timely care is necessary. I've nabbed a same week appt for my derm in the past.

Urgent care? Straight away. Worst triage waiting times are no different than major cities in the States. You show up to the ER and you're not having a heart attack or bleeding out, you're going to wait. I think our average wait time at work, the last I heard, is 90-120 minutes. Waiting is no fun, but you have to allow limited staff during busy times the leeway necessary to attend te people who really ARE having heart attacks and bleeding out!

Alternatively, as I mentioned, you can purchase private cover, as cheap as $40/month for basic emergency without the side benefits of chiro, physio, dental, etc. Average would be closer to $100 for those benefits. And those plans get you checked into one of the premium private hospitals with zero wait. The last time I was in St John of God hospital, the triage room was like a ghost town. There was not one single person waiting. That being said, private cover is nice, and unnecessary. One of my expat friends here was only granted his PR, thus qualifying for Medicare cover, about 2 months ago. He recently seriously hurt his shoulder, spent an hour waiting in triage, and had everything taken care of that day - in a public hospital. ER visit, bloods taken, x rays taken, MRI done, casted up, full script for painkillers. $120 out of pocket, and that was for the painkillers - previous use of what was covered by Medicare made him feel 'off' so he opted for paying for different ones. All public hospital, all same day, all free.

Obviously socialized medicine can be implemented in a financially savvy manner. Australia's debt as a function of GDP is 25%, while the US is currently at 74%. There are obviously other expenses, that I personally find less important, eating away at the buying power of the States. A big one would start with I-, and end with -nvading foreign counties. It's all about priorities. Health of citizens is a necessity - find programs that are not, and start cut, cut, cutting.

FWIW, in this part of Australia, the wait to see 'my' GP is about 2-3 weeks. You can walk into a medical centre and see a random doc for a 5 minute consult with an hour's wait. If you need a knee replacement, you get on the list when it's too painful for you to handle your everday life (can't walk through the grocery store, etc.) and the wait is currently 14 months. ED wait times are similar to large public hospitals in the US, but there's no way, none whatsoever, that you'd ever get an MRI in or from the ED. You'd get x-rays, a cast and a note for your GP, with 3 days worth of painkillers and no additional script. If you wanted the MRI, your GP could order it and you'd pay about $200 to get it done in a week or so.

 

[justginger]

Whereabouts are you, cm? I'm in the Perth hills - have never had to wait past the end of the week to see my doctor, even for just a sick note.

As for no way, no how to a same day MRI -- I don't know what else to say other than it happened. QEII Medical Centre, about two weeks ago.

Edited: I just looked back at a text convo with said clumsy friend (he tripped while playing soccer with some of his school kids!) - the conversation states that he had an MRI that day, and then a second one 4 days later.

 

[House Cat]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

Let's try it another way. Alice and Barbara graduated and took different paths. Alice decided to take a job and work for a local company. She started her grownup life. Her salary was not top notch but it was enough for her to start her life on her own. Barbara choose to take a slightly different path and she got a post graduate degree and incurred a good bit of debt doing so. Barbara put things on hold and worked to graduate. After that she spent several years working 60-80 hour weeks working her way up in her field. Finally she decided to start a business of her own and was forced to take huge loans to make it happen. She had to worry whether she would make payroll and end up making a profit for several years. Meanwhile Alice continues to work in her chosen field and brings home her paycheck working forty hours a week. Several years later Barbara has made a success of her business and finally is making big bucks. The two women meet again at a reunion. Alice is furious at Barbara for flaunting her success. How unfair she has a successful business, beautiful clothing and lots of nice jewelry. No fair! That multimillionaire Barbara should not have all of that wealth. She needs to pay more so we don't have to chunk out our hard earned pay. We have so much less than she. She and others like her should pitch in more so we do not have to pay so much. Fortunately, no one whined or peed their pants. Just saying there are always many different sides to stories. Additionally I worry about the need to lie to get both cakes. Seriously don't you?

The bolded part is something that I was going to address in my last post too. There has been some discussion in this thread about flawed/broken systems and people who cheat those systems (welfare, disability, etc.). I mentioned that it sounds hypocritical to expect the wealthy to have compassion, when there seems to be a general lack of compassion for the wealthy. I suspect that mentality could contribute to the flawed systems and the people who choose to abuse them. If someone lacks compassion/sympathy, they might be more inclined to cheat the system because they feel that their actions are justified (the line of reasoning that there is lots of money out there, I don't feel sorry for wealthy people or government programs that are heavily funded by them, and therefore, it somehow makes it okay for me to cheat the system). In other words, so-and-so has lots of cakes, so it's okay for me to lie to get more because he has more and I don't feel sorry for him.... Don't get me wrong, I don't think that everyone cheats the system. Clearly, there are people out there who truly need assistance and they use the systems appropriately, but there are many flawed systems and many individuals who feel that it is okay to cheat the systems that were put in place to assist/help.

The problem with this argument is that it implies that the wealthy are an honest folk, when in fact, they are the most crooked of all. If you are going to acknowledge the welfare cheaters, please also acknowledge those who commit white collar crime, those who sent our country into the most massive recession this country has seen with mortgage fraud, those who squandered billions in government bail outs that you are paying for, etc. Yes the list goes on. And we have watched it all on the news and done nothing.

Then people turn around and point to the poor and say THEY are the problem. What a sad state of affairs.

 

[Sparklelu]

Well that's a rather broad stroke of the brush!

 

[ruby59]

The bolded part is something that I was going to address in my last post too. There has been some discussion in this thread about flawed/broken systems and people who cheat those systems (welfare, disability, etc.). I mentioned that it sounds hypocritical to expect the wealthy to have compassion, when there seems to be a general lack of compassion for the wealthy. I suspect that mentality could contribute to the flawed systems and the people who choose to abuse them. If someone lacks compassion/sympathy, they might be more
Then people turn around and point to the poor and say THEY are the problem. What a sad state of affairs. [/quote]


I respectfully disagree with the above post. There are dishonest people at both sides of the extreme. No one is disputing that. As has been mentioned many times before, the extremely wealthy will find their loop holes. The extremely poor are already being helped through Medicaid.

If this thread is any indication it is people like me and Mom and others - solid middle class - who are the most affected. If we seem like we do mot want to pay extra for yet another entitlement, it is not because we are selfish, greedy, or do not have any empathy. For many of us, we have worked too d*mn hard our entire lives and are seeing yet again our hard earned money going for another poorly executed entitlement. And maybe some of us do lack a little empathy because we know what it is like to be poor, but we also know what it is like to work hard for decades to earn what we have. I know there were many days I would have preferred to stay home. But I had pre existing conditions, and if I wanted medical insurance, I had to work 2 jobs to pay for it. In my state, I already pay high taxes. And my gas bill, electric bill, phone bill, etc. already has fees collected to subsidize others. Maybe I am selfish, but the extras I have worked tiredlessly to acquire, I want to keep for my future and that of my family.

 

[JewelFreak]

Pretty sad outlook. I'm afraid I see lots of envy. Think about it -- not one of you would turn down lotsa money if it came to you...but of course, then, you'd be honest, right? Talk about bigotry!

 

[minousbijoux]

So this is the health care thread with all the action in it! I *think* I'll be back to comment once I've read the whole thing.

 

[Smith1942]

I haven't really commented on the debates between the two broad systems (socialised or private healthcare) because I'm so far to one side that it wouldn't be fair, I'm so biased. I'm from the only truly free healthcare system in the world so of course I think that's the best way to go. When I say truly free, I mean that no money changes hands, ever. (Of course, it's in your taxes. But including state tax, I don't think our US taxes are that much higher, and roads, schools and all else comes out of the UK taxes, too.)

In the part-public, part-private systems like in Australia and Canada, you pay something, even if much less than the US. But in the UK, you literally could leave your purse at home to see the GP, have surgery, have outpatient appointments, anything. No money is paid, at all, ever, not one penny. Not sure if those from other countries who have never been in the UK and had cause to visit a doctor while there realise that. And, there is no paperwork. Compared to the blinding complexity of the US system, it is so unbelievably simple. You see the doc and you do not handle one single piece of paperwork (or pay one single penny).

A woman I worked with at a department store when I was a student had no money and lived on a project. Her husband had bad heart trouble, and he had a heart bypass operation at King's College teaching hospital in London, even though he lived a few hours' drive from there. The cost? Nothing. No co-pays, no co-insurance, literally nothing.

My elderly neighbour was diagnosed with bone cancer. He thought he would have to have his leg amputated, but it was saved. He too lives three hours from the Marsden, a famous London cancer hospital. He is alone. So the NHS sent a driver from London to pick him up and drive him home to get to his appointments at this top-notch place that saved his leg, a six-hour roundtrip each time. After the operation, he had five weeks in a rehab hospital nearer home. The cost of all this red-carpet treatment? You've guessed it, not one single penny.

I'm not saying universal healthcare is perfect, but as already discussed, there's a triage system in place, the most urgent gets seen first, and no one loses their house or gets landed with any kind of bill, and no one is ever asked to pay an extra penny for healthcare.

I actually posted in order to comment on the wealth issue, but I got distracted! I'm from about the most socialist healthcare system in the world so, like I said, I am very biased.

But about wealth, many, many wealthy people earned it through honest means. My friend is an author. She just got a million-pound contract with Penguin. Her other books have sold in 24 countries, and each time a country buys the rights to one of her six books, another few hundred thousand plops into her lap. She has natural talent, yes, but she's also worked very hard to bring out that talent. I am so very happy for her.

My parents have family friends who are multi-millionaires. He started out selling wood from a caravan. He worked, saved, and acquired a garden centre. It expanded. He developed a sideline in fixing up property. They are SO wealthy, but he made it all by buying and selling physical items at the garden centre, the way most retail shops make a living. Seems pretty honest to me!

My sister-in-law is one of the Square Mile's best-known commercial lawyers. She worked on the acquisition of the London Stock Exchange, for example. As a partner in a huge firm, and first female head of one of its practices, I forget which, perhaps intellectual property, she has earned millions. They have a ten-million pound house in Kensington, a mansion in Tuscany, they are very rich. But she's earned it by being a top-notch lawyer. I didn't know lawyers could earn so much, but she is a specialist and my husband said she earns what she does because not very many people can do what she does - i.e. not many have her knowledge base. She gave up having a second child for her career and her one child has been brought up by others as she worked most evenings entertaining clients as well as working hard during the day, so she has made her sacrifices.

And, just because someone is wealthy, doesn't protect them from the worst vagaries of life. That SIL is currently suffering from a very virulent form of breast cancer, triple negative, which grew even during chemo. I don't know her prognosis, but she has one son and he's only 16.

So I don't agree with the assertion that wealthy folk are the most crooked of all. They can be crooked, sure, but so are petty thieves and they are usually not rich, quite the opposite.

Some wealthy folks just worked really, really hard, got lucky, happened to be good at things that are well-paid (see first and third examples above).

I don't have a problem with what other people have, providing it was earned fair and square like in the examples above.

 

[ruby59]

If anyone is having doubts, you just need to read the exchange thread. I almost fell on the floor when I saw what one person was quoted. I have diabetes, and that is a tough one to get insurance for, and the premium she was quoted floored me.

 

[monarch64]

If anyone is having doubts, you just need to read the exchange thread. I almost fell on the floor when I saw what one person was quoted. I have diabetes, and that is a tough one to get insurance for, and the premium she was quoted floored me.

The only way for the ACA to actually work, and for premiums to actually to become reasonable across the board (for all ages) is for young, healthy people to sign up. That is what the whole thing hinges on. The problem is that some young people don't want to pay the premiums however low they are, because the penalty (for 2014 ONLY--it increases exponentially in the coming years from what I understand) is really low. I've heard and seen the number $95, do not know if that is actual fact though. My point is, that unless the young and healthy get on board the whole thing is going to fall apart.

I just find it really crappy to be asked to take a freaking LEAP OF FAITH which is what this all amounts to, after everything this country's people have gone through in the past 5 years. Recession, bank bailouts, the war in Iraq, a struggling economy, bursting of the housing bubble and all that entailed, basically constant upheaval. That is the tough pill to swallow, for me. I don't want anyone to be denied health care. I do, however, think we're going about this in a really messed up way.

 

[ruby59]

If anyone is having doubts, you just need to read the exchange thread. I almost fell on the floor when I saw what one person was quoted. I have diabetes, and that is a tough one to get insurance for, and the premium she was quoted floored me.

The only way for the ACA to actually work, and for premiums to actually to become reasonable across the board (for all ages) is for young, healthy people to sign up. That is what the whole thing hinges on. The problem is that some young people don't want to pay the premiums however low they are, because the penalty (for 2014 ONLY--it increases exponentially in the coming years from what I understand) is really low. I've heard and seen the number $95, do not know if that is actual fact though. My point is, that unless the young and healthy get on board the whole thing is going to fall apart.

I just find it really crappy to be asked to take a freaking LEAP OF FAITH which is what this all amounts to, after everything this country's people have gone through in the past 5 years. Recession, bank bailouts, the war in Iraq, a struggling economy, bursting of the housing bubble and all that entailed, basically constant upheaval. That is the tough pill to swallow, for me. I don't want anyone to be denied health care. I do, however, think we're going about this in a really messed up way.

Monarch, go to the exchange thread. Pricescoper Effe. Did you see her quote.

My son's friends are in that healthy, young age group. Too old to be on their parents' insurance, have not found their dream job, and are paying back school loans. They will be paying the penalty, and the reason is quite simple. They do not have the money to pay for it.

 

[monarch64]

If anyone is having doubts, you just need to read the exchange thread. I almost fell on the floor when I saw what one person was quoted. I have diabetes, and that is a tough one to get insurance for, and the premium she was quoted floored me.

The only way for the ACA to actually work, and for premiums to actually to become reasonable across the board (for all ages) is for young, healthy people to sign up. That is what the whole thing hinges on. The problem is that some young people don't want to pay the premiums however low they are, because the penalty (for 2014 ONLY--it increases exponentially in the coming years from what I understand) is really low. I've heard and seen the number $95, do not know if that is actual fact though. My point is, that unless the young and healthy get on board the whole thing is going to fall apart.

I just find it really crappy to be asked to take a freaking LEAP OF FAITH which is what this all amounts to, after everything this country's people have gone through in the past 5 years. Recession, bank bailouts, the war in Iraq, a struggling economy, bursting of the housing bubble and all that entailed, basically constant upheaval. That is the tough pill to swallow, for me. I don't want anyone to be denied health care. I do, however, think we're going about this in a really messed up way.

Monarch, go to the exchange thread. Pricescoper Effe. Did you see her quote.

My son's friends are in that healthy, young age group. Too old to be on their parents' insurance, have not found their dream job, and are paying back school loans. They will be paying the penalty, and the reason is quite simple. They do not have the money to pay for it.

Yes, I did see Effe's quote. Made me want to cry. And yes, I remember you mentioning that demographic and I have been hearing the same from my friends here who are recent grads. Basically, most of them have taken 2, sometimes 3 part time jobs, or they're working full time entry-level positions that don't pay enough to cover rent/food/utilities/student loans/any other debt they've incurred PLUS insurance that is not entirely subsidized by their employer.

So now we have a large group of young people who have incurred MAJOR debt, can't find jobs, and are expected to buy into this new healthcare system. If I were them, I'd be learning a skilled trade somehow. Oh wait, no one does that anymore. ETA: I'm not placing all the blame on those who incur debt to go to school at all. It's just what the expectation has become--go to college, no matter what the cost, find an awesome job that pays 6 figures RIGHT AWAY, pay off loans, live happily ever after.

 

[crown1]

It's none of my nevermind if a person wants to cross their arms, stomp their feet and get all huffy. I personally choose to react in a manner more on par w/being an adult rather than mimicking my preschoolers at work, is what I'm getting at. And the ones that are acting that way have more and are smarmy if someone w/way less complains as well.

If I have one Swiss Cake Roll and have to give my brother one half of it (which happened rarely b/c we'd each lie and tell the other mom said no and then secretly go and eat both rolls but I digress..), and Joe Blow has 50 Swiss Cake rolls and has to give his brother half, he still has more Little Debbie's than I do, even tho he still gave more. So if he throws a fit about it, I kinda am more apt to think he's a big ole whine baby pee pants. Is what I'm saying.

I have insurance thru my husband's job w/the city, and I have my own policy thru my job with the school. I have no idea how that will affect anything. I know my work insurance copays/deductibles went up and I get less coverage. It's been an eye opener the last couple years not working for my Dr anymore and getting the free family care that came along w/it. We saved quite a few thousand dollars over the 8 years I worked there, not having to pay copays/deductibles to be seen at the office, even if things weren't covered by insurance. That was a huge benefit to give up.

Let's try it another way. Alice and Barbara graduated and took different paths. Alice decided to take a job and work for a local company. She started her grownup life. Her salary was not top notch but it was enough for her to start her life on her own. Barbara choose to take a slightly different path and she got a post graduate degree and incurred a good bit of debt doing so. Barbara put things on hold and worked to graduate. After that she spent several years working 60-80 hour weeks working her way up in her field. Finally she decided to start a business of her own and was forced to take huge loans to make it happen. She had to worry whether she would make payroll and end up making a profit for several years. Meanwhile Alice continues to work in her chosen field and brings home her paycheck working forty hours a week. Several years later Barbara has made a success of her business and finally is making big bucks. The two women meet again at a reunion. Alice is furious at Barbara for flaunting her success. How unfair she has a successful business, beautiful clothing and lots of nice jewelry. No fair! That multimillionaire Barbara should not have all of that wealth. She needs to pay more so we don't have to chunk out our hard earned pay. We have so much less than she. She and others like her should pitch in more so we do not have to pay so much. Fortunately, no one whined or peed their pants. Just saying there are always many different sides to stories. Additionally I worry about the need to lie to get both cakes. Seriously don't you?

The bolded part is something that I was going to address in my last post too. There has been some discussion in this thread about flawed/broken systems and people who cheat those systems (welfare, disability, etc.). I mentioned that it sounds hypocritical to expect the wealthy to have compassion, when there seems to be a general lack of compassion for the wealthy. I suspect that mentality could contribute to the flawed systems and the people who choose to abuse them. If someone lacks compassion/sympathy, they might be more inclined to cheat the system because they feel that their actions are justified (the line of reasoning that there is lots of money out there, I don't feel sorry for wealthy people or government programs that are heavily funded by them, and therefore, it somehow makes it okay for me to cheat the system). In other words, so-and-so has lots of cakes, so it's okay for me to lie to get more because he has more and I don't feel sorry for him.... Don't get me wrong, I don't think that everyone cheats the system. Clearly, there are people out there who truly need assistance and they use the systems appropriately, but there are many flawed systems and many individuals who feel that it is okay to cheat the systems that were put in place to assist/help.

The problem with this argument is that it implies that the wealthy are an honest folk, when in fact, they are the most crooked of all. If you are going to acknowledge the welfare cheaters, please also acknowledge those who commit white collar crime, those who sent our country into the most massive recession this country has seen with mortgage fraud, those who squandered billions in government bail outs that you are paying for, etc. Yes the list goes on. And we have watched it all on the news and done nothing.

Then people turn around and point to the poor and say THEY are the problem. What a sad state of affairs.

Just for the record, my post did not have any bold type words. Those words were bolded by another.

 

[ruby59]

Yes, work hard in school, go to college, and find a good job and live happily ever after. We told our 3 that more than once. Yes, in the past people got by nicely without an education, but can it be done now? Not even a college diploma guarantees you anything. Now you need graduate school, too. Today, with the advancement of technology, even those seeking a trade need to further their education. However, who knew colleges and universities would have gotten so greedy with $50,000 a year tuition. Who could have predicted that Curt Schillings multi-million dollar start up company would go bellyup, leaving taxpayers with the bill. And now because of it our little state has become very business unfriendly causing companies to leave in droves.

My tiny state has the 3rd largest unemployment rate. My son works in another state. His friends work 2 jobs to pay the bills. They would gladly take anything in their chosen fields to get their foot in the door. Actually, they would probably take ANYTHING full time that offers semi-paid insurance. They do not live large by any means. Modest apartments and cars. Most would probably starve if they did not catch a meal at mom's. No cable TV. Modest cell phone plans-no land lines. Their only luxuries is the pet fees they pay so they can keep their dogs. At the end of the month, there is simply nothing left nor nothing to give up to pay these premiums.

I am sure that their situations are not quite different than others their age. So if the exchange is counting on these kids to pay higher premiums to subsidize others, then there is a big problem.

 

[Dancing Fire]

[quote="monarch64|1381172223|

The only way for the ACA to actually work, and for premiums to actually to become reasonable across the board (for all ages) is for young, healthy people to sign up. That is what the whole thing hinges on. The problem is that some young people don't want to pay the premiums however low they are, because the penalty (for 2014 ONLY--it increases exponentially in the coming years from what I understand) is really low. I've heard and seen the number $95, do not know if that is actual fact though. My point is, that unless the young and healthy get on board the whole thing is going to fall apart.

[/quote]


Yup, some or most of the younger people will take the $95 penalty.

 

[Beacon]

DF I am sure many will. The math is actually with them on this.

The odds of a healthy person in their 20s getting horribly sick or injured are fairly low. If they did get sick/injured, there exist many places that will treat them for free or minimal cost. (my brother is a Physician's Assistant at a free clinic - free as in ZERO cost). They need not worry about the bills "bankrupting" them as they have few assets to attach.

If they don't have the $$ to pay the high premiums, they can hope the probabilities are on their side and risk it. I did just that in my early 20s living in NY. I got lucky, didn't get sick, all ok. When you are young you feel good like this, willing to take some chances.

 

[Dancing Fire]

DF I am sure many will. The math is actually with them on this.

The odds of a healthy person in their 20s getting horribly sick or injured are fairly low. If they did get sick/injured, there exist many places that will treat them for free or minimal cost. (my brother is a Physician's Assistant at a free clinic - free as in ZERO cost). They need not worry about the bills "bankrupting" them as they have few assets to attach.

If they don't have the $$ to pay the high premiums, they can hope the probabilities are on their side and risk it. I did just that in my early 20s living in NY. I got lucky, didn't get sick, all ok. When you are young you feel good like this, willing to take some chances.

Don't go buy the insurance until you needed it.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

Here are the details re the penalty: https://www.healthcare.gov/what-if-...e for 100% of the cost of their medical care.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Here are the details re the penalty: https://www.healthcare.gov/what-if-...[/b][/quote] How?..if I don't have any money.

 

[Bella_mezzo]

My brother is in the military and I have to say, I would have been a lot happier if the exchange plans were TriCare...I truly believe that socialized medicine is a far superior alternative and think that the Affordable Care Act should have provided a federal single payer system. The current plan is like the worst of both worlds...

Have you looked through the coverage?

I am pregnant and due in Feb, thankfully I think that my job is going to continue to offer insurance that covers l&d with a $500 deductible and reasonable copay.

My husband currently does not have insurance b/c we can't afford the premiums for him and we are considering paying the "penalty" for 2014 as there is no way for us to afford the monthly premium for him until the fall when he hopefully will resume working (he is currently in school full-time).

Just in case my job dramatically changes their plan/coverage/premiums, I checked the exchange and ...Here is the maternity coverage on the exchange (I live in NYC).

Bronze: $6000 family deductible, $12,700 family out of pocket max, 50% coinsurance AFTER deductible for in-patient hospital delivery AND 50% coinsurance (after deductible) for delivering physician. Premiums for this are about $14,500/year for a family of 4 with no subsidies and children covered under ChildHealth Plus.

Silver: $4,000 family deductible, $11,000 family out of pocket max, $1,500 per admission AFTER deductible AND $100 copay for delivering physician (after deductible). Premiums for this are about $16,500/year for a family of 4 with no subsidies and children covered under ChildHealh Plus.

Gold: $1,200 family deductible, $8,000 family out of pocket max, $1,000 per admission AFTER deductible AND $100 copay for delivering physician (after deductible). Premiums for this are about $18,000/year for a family of 4 with no subsidies and children covered under ChildHealh Plus.

Platinum: $0 family deductible, $4,000 family out of pocket max, $500 per admission (no deductible involved) AND $100 copay for delivering physician (no deductible involved). Premiums for this are about $20,000/year for a family of 4 with no subsidies and children covered under ChildHealh Plus.

AND, HERE IS THE KICKER...ALL OF THESE PLANS STILL REQUIRE "PARTICIPATING PROVIDERS" SO YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE HASSLE OF MAKING SURE THAT ANY PROVIDER YOU SEE (FROM THE DR TO THE ANESTHESIOLOGIST TO THE PATHOLOGIST TO THE LAB, ETC. IS A "PARTICIPATING PROVIDER" or you'll need to pay in full for the services.

Billed amounts for standard vaginal deliveries with no complications in NYC are about $30,000 and insurance companies usually pay about $10,000. If insurance coverage continues to work the way it currently does...in the Bronze plan, you would pay the $6,000 deductible AND 50% of $30,000...SO A TOTAL OF $21,000...then the insurance company would pay whatever it pays of the remainder, based on my recent insurance bills that would be about $1500 b/c on all my bills from the past few years, insurance companies have paid about 10% of the charged amount.

Whoop-dee-doo...I'll get a "free" breast pump too. In my mind that is one h*ll of an expensive breast pump!

 

[Beacon]

Bella - that is just - I cannot imagine

Are they out of their minds! No one can pay that!

the math looks like you would pay the 21K PLUS the huge premium for the healthcare itself. Over 30K out of pocket. Come on - it would be better for MANY people to just go unemployed and make the government pick up that whole tab.