Why are people so nasty about not having children?

[galeteia]

What floored me the most about that night, enough to prompt a thread even though I get milder forms of this attitude often albeit cloaked in Canadian Politeness, was that my union with FI was irrelevant and not fit to be deemed the "choosing of a mate" because it would not result in children.

And this is coming from educated, intelligent, liberal people who I would have otherwise called casual friends. Perhaps I should have sunk to their level and pointed out that if it turns out they cannot have children themselves their own relationships are no longer fit to be called "marriage", if we follow their argument?

Of course, I would never, ever say something like that, but I get mighty tired of falling back on my Edema as prohibitive to having children. That makes people back off most of the time but the stubborn ones start in on adoption. There are so many would-be parents desperate to have children that adopting kids you don't even want that could be going to a home that feverishly wants them seems ludicrous to me.

When women tell me they are going to be a stay-at-home mom, I respect that and agree that raising children is a full-time job, and that I respect they have chosen to focus on raising their children, when some parents try to pass off rearing of their kids onto daycare, sitters, and teachers. (Note: "some" parents, I am in no way implying that everyone who has a babysitter or sends their kids to daycare is doing this, just that some parents are lazy and don't want to actively parent their kids at all) Likewise, a stay-at-home dad would be getting a high-five.

I suspect it really just comes down to feeling like I'm criticizing their own choice to have kids by deciding not to have them myself. I appreciate people's acknowledgement of my decision not to have them, but to be fair, it was never really something I agonized over; I've never wanted children and as I grew older and happened upon more reasons not to have them (health, career, timeline) they've only added icing to the cake in terms of cementing something that I always felt strongly about.

Thank yous to everyone who replied with their thoughts on the subject, and for the sympathy; somehow I never become desensitized to the issue no matter how often it comes up. And it always does come up, people can go from "Are you engaged" to "When are you having kids" in no time.

TG, I was an only child, and I loved it. My mother and I lived with another family after she and my father divorced, so from the age of 15 months to 7 years I lived with a slightly older 'sister'. Let me tell you, I gloried in being an only child when my mother set off on her own; between my health and my insatiable brain, my mother had her hands full with just me. I never yearned for siblings, perhaps because I got to experience having one during my formative years.

I'm still traumatized!

 

[phoenixgirl]

I agree that it''s people''s insecurities that lead them to criticize YOUR choices. It''s your life. I think those people are just thinking, sigh, imagine if I could go out to dinner any night or take a vacation on the drop of a hat. So they make themselves feel better by telling themselves that they''re fulfilling their procreational destiny or whatever.

There is an inverse relationship between standard of living and population growth rates, and visionaries have long said that we WILL exhaust all the resources on our planet and will need to find a new one or . . . I believe that just like "mating" and passing on your genes and all that, people choosing not to have kids can also be seen as helping the future of our race. I wish I had been at the party; I would have given those people a run for their money with their pious moral arguments!

 

[fisherofmengirly]

Hey Galateia,

I so agree with most of the others who have commented. What I've found is that a lot of times, people think any choice that doesn't match their own is wrong or ludicrous. When in fact, it should be ludicrous for someone who doesn't want to have children to have children, as that is a big part of what I work with daily: parents who never wanted to be parents who are abusing or just clueless as to how to appropriately care for their children.

I whole heartedly applaud anyone who knows (at that time in their lives, at the very least) that having children is not something that will work, or that they want to have work, for them and take measures not to have those children. It takes a lot of maturity to know if a couple (or person) is ready, willing, or eager to take on all that being a parent is.

One thing I don't get is the people who have a child, don't enjoy it, and then have more. As if loading on more will make the task easier. I've never understood that.

You'll hear everyone else's opinions for the rest of your life, about ever minor, major, serious, and personal thing you can imagine. People seem to think that everyone else ought to not only hear their opinions, but also agree completely with each one shared. Such an odd species.

I saw at the bottom of your post that you'll be reunited with your fiance in three months. Does that mean you're coming to the States, or that he's going up to you? I remember all of that unfolding a while back, but can't remember the outcome of it all.

 

[diamondfan]

There are inappropriate people in all facets of life. I do not find those comments fair, normal or reasonable. If someone informed me that they were not having children, I might say, Wow, you guys will get to travel and have some amazing adventures just the two of you...or something like that, or I might say, it is a very personal choice and leave it at that. Those conversations can be tricky. I just cannot imagine, as I said on that other thread, that I would feel it is my personal mission in life to convince someone to have kids. Whatever their reasons, even if I think it is not compelling to ME, it is clearly so to THEM. I am not the one having the baby at that point. And though I have kids, I certainly do not think ALL people should have them, and I personally do not see it as my job to convince them to. Another life is serious. If you have a baby, hopefully all works out, but why chance something so significant knowing and believing it is not what you want to do?

I think it is about respecting that other person's right to make that choice for themselves. Not all people want or should have kids. I appreciate someone who has come to that place and knows themselves well enough to know this is their path. Having kids is great, but I can certainly understand the various reasons why one might not wish to have them. This is like politics or religion in terms of being a very divisive topic for general discussion.

You could always, when someone asks, say, No, but we like to practice anyway!!! That might quiet them down!!! And how antiquated a view it is that marriage is only about procreation! Phooey on that!

 

[snowviolet]

You are damned if you do, AND damned if you don''t. It is always amazing to me how people will ''offer'' their opinion on extrememly personal issues as if what they have to say has some bearing on your life. Choosing to have or not to have children is profoundly private, and which ever way you lean is perfectly fine. I had no opinion on this for myself, and at age 38 had somewhat resigned that it may never happen... at which point, I got pregnant.
Now, it is even more amazing what complete strangers will say to me when I am out with my baby, just ''giving their advice'', as if I care. (Usually it is some condescending comment pretending to be helpful).
Perhaps people are rude to you for your decision to not have children out of pure jealousness for your clear choice of personal freedom. Who knows. Kudos to you though for giving thought to what it is you truly want, and not just doing something because you feel like ''you have to''.
Susan

 

[curlygirl]

Galateia, you''ve gotten so many well thought out, eloquent responses here. I hope I can do the same!

I have a child and another one on the way. I always "knew" I wanted to be a mother--I''m not sure why, I don''t know why I thought I would be good at it--but it''s always been something that I wanted. Do I think it''s great? Yes. But is it also hard as hell? YES!!! Somedays I just want to be home alone and think about my own poops, meals, naps, etc! But that is no longer my reality and I''m ok with it because it is rewarding to me.

On the flip side is the person who is closest to me in the whole world--my older sister. We share the same DNA, grew up in the same household, etc. yet we are completely different. She does not want children EVER. She loves her niece but in small doses. She watches me with a strange awestruck/disgusted look on her face as I change diapers, clean up snot and feed pureed crap to my daughter. And she has no problems saying she could never do it. She has admitted that she likes her life the way it is and she is way too selfish to bring a child into it. She doesn''t dislike children really. She just doesn''t want her own and is fine with that decision.

To me, it takes a lot of courage and maturity to admit that. Not everyone is cut out to have children and some people do it for the wrong reasons--mostly that they are pressured by friends, family, society. I know in my own circle of friends, there are some girls who had babies because it''s what everyone else is doing. They simply want to keep up with the Joneses. It''s like babies are the hot new accessory and everyone should have one just because it''s the "in" thing. Others have babies because they think it will help resurrect a marriage that is in trouble. To me, these are the absolute WRONG reasons.

So what I''m saying is, don''t listen to what everyone else says. You know who you are deep down inside and the people who say rude things are simply that--RUDE. I applaud you for making an adult, rational, well thought-out, personal decision and sticking by it. Don''t let anyone get you down. Your life is your own and you should do whatever you want without being judged.

 

[canadiangrrl]

The flip side...of a random pocketful of coins...

We were married four years and one month before Bliss was born. We waited deliberately. We built a house, we travelled, my husband got promoted - those were all things we wanted to do/get out of the way before we had a child.

In the three years preceding her birth, I heard:

When are you going to have a baby?

When I got pregnant, I heard:

Having a baby at your age (I was 35 when she was conceived) is risky/brave/kind of crazy.

What I resent is:

The assumption that my whole life is all about my child; that I have little else to contribute, because I''m now a stay-at-home Mom, and easier to stereotype and therefore marginalise; that I''m inherently miserable, because she won''t sleep/won''t eat/won''t whatever.

Granted, not everyone makes those assumptions. But many do, and guess what - by and large, those who do are those without kids.

I respect anyone''s right to choose what''s best for him or herself. Parenting is not for everyone, and from what I''ve seen, more people should choose to forego having children - it requires a sublimation of one''s own desires/wishes/needs at times - it''s not for the narcissistic, the self-involved, the faint of heart, or those lacking a sense of humour.

Do I recommend motherhood? Absolutely. Bliss is honestly the best thing that has ever happened to my husband and me, and I say that with no hesitation whatsoever. Children can pull you apart, but they can also bring you even closer together. That''s true in our case, and it''s wonderful. But I wholly acknowledge that not everyone feels this way, and would never presume to foist our choice on anyone. The people who went off on you at your colleague''s farewell party are simply obnoxious.

 

[diamondfan]

I must say one thing as I read this thread. I personally have NEVER treated someone inappropriately when they have mentioned not wanting children, nor do I know people who have. I am not saying that I doubt it happens, but it is not something I do and I have not witnessed it in a general sense. Maybe parents who want grandkids and hear their child is not going to have kids act differently...but I am boggled that acquaintances would behave so boorishly at social events.
However, as a mom, I have endured the opposite attitude from people who clearly dislike children, regardless of how they are acting. I have seen things that are unkind and not valid. Now, do I say my children are always perfect? No. Did I have to remove a child from a theater or restaurant on occasion? Yes. But the point is, I was aware of others around me and I did not sit there and do nothing. My children are, for the most part, polite, nice, well behaved and a pleasure. I have random adults around compliment them to me after having interactions with them outside my presence. So far, I feel they are very balanced and I am proud of them. But I have dealt with dirty looks and attitude from people who perhaps dislike kids so even though at that time my kids were not ill behaved, I can see the person''s attitude clearly. I think either extreme is really pretty wrong. Again, certain topics, this one, politics, religion, to name a few, can really produce strong emotions. I try to be as respectful as I can about people''s choices, but I also feel I should be able to expect the same in return. While I love my kids, I would be less than honest if I denied the truth that while it can be so rewarding, it is also, at times, demanding, impossible, scary, thankless and wearying. Like a lot in life it is not black and white. Whatever someone''s reasons, of course a very full and wonderful life can be lived without having kids. To suggest otherwise is a bit micro focused.

And I guess, if I were deciding to remain childless and people around me harassed me about my choice, I might just learn to say something that would shut them up and keep them from going down that path with me again!

 

[nytemist]

So many pepople view marriage almost like this club you strive to get into and once you''re there, you ''have'' to do ''certain things''. Like have children. I''ve heard so many people say that it''s just ''what you do when you get married''. Who says?

I''ve gotten some mildly judgemntal comments since day one. Most are so oblivious they don''t even realize what they are saying is insulting. I''ve heard crap for being a mixed couple, crap for not getting married in a church, but most crap for not wanting children.

Outside of some friends and my mother who refuse to leave it alone, I''ve had other near strangers talk to me like they suddenly have a say in what happens with my uterus. DH and I were at our usual Friday bar and this woman noticed my wedding band and though it was beautiful, asked how long we''d been married and then asked about children. I know lots of people will deflect to the topic and say ''none right now'' or something like that, bvut I''m straight up honest about it. I said we aren''t having any. You would have though a slapped her with how she recoiled. He response? "How sad to do that to your parents!" What?
I just looked at her smiled at her stupidity. Pointless to tell her that my mom already has 3 grandchildren and a great-grandaughter. DH''s parents have a surprise granchild on the way as well.

At gatherings at my friend''s house ( her son is about 1 1/2) they ALL have kids. I''ve heard anything from ''marriage is about children, they make the relaitonship stronger'', ''how sad that your selfish needs would come before family'',''you are denying what God wants us to do'',''then sex has no special meaning for you if you''re not trying to get pregnant'' and so. I simply say, it''s my choice. If I want to be snarky I say, ''well you are having enough children to make up for me.'' What bothers me is people just assume that you are making a bad decision and will regret it, that our marriage has no bond. Hello? My bond is WITH DH. I got married because I wanted to be WITH HIM.

I have a friends who is very much CFBC and has sent me links to some sites. You wouldn''t believe how many with children rant about people without. This friend thinks it''s jealousy. Her and her husband go where and when they want, go at it in the middle of the living room if they want, go out to dinner when they want, keep their house full of art and more, and she says her other friends with children now always want her about what they did on weekends, kind of living vicariously through them since they can''t do anything without strategic planning.

Sorry to go on a tangent, but this bugs me to no end. I think people who know deep down that they have no desire for kids should be commended. It would cut on the number of horror stories we see on the news. Don''t tell me that my marriage means less, or I msut have nothing to do in my outside of work time, just because I don''t have kids!

 

[nytemist]

Oh, just for some humor on the topic, I saw this on one of the sites:


http://www.cafepress.com/buy/childfree/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_20419788/opt_/fpt_/c_666/

 

[HollyS]

Date: 3/8/2008 10:24:21 PM
Author:Galateia
Warning: Vent Ahead.

To avoid derailing Sha''s thread further, I thought I would start a new thread. My question is, why do people take it upon themselves to be so rude and inappropriate when they learn one is not having children?

It would never occur to me to deride a person''s choice to have children or attempt to convince them not to have them.

What gives?

This thread was prompted by my experiences last night at a colleague''s farewell party, where I was told that anything I could experience with my partner is pathetic and soulless compared to ''making love when you are making a baby'' and that if I am not having children, I do not have the right to use the word ''mate'' when referring to my FI, since that word no longer has any relevant meaning in my case.

This was from two separate people, both of whom were drunk and would be otherwise polite as we are on good terms, but I was shocked and hurt that people think that they have the right to say these outrageous things to me, drunk or not.

The second person, who asserted I have no right to refer to my choice of FF as ''choosing my mate'', told me that he was essentially offended that a woman as intelligent/accomplished/etc as me was not passing on my genes, as if I somehow owed humanity my offspring, devil take what I might want to do with my intelligence, accomplishments, and ambitions.

I cannot conceive of how my choice to have kids or not gives anyone the right to become offended. I might be mixing up my grammar there a little, but hot damn, I''m peeved.

Do people who have children somehow feel that I am casting aspersions on their choice by choosing not to have them? Someone was actually arguing with me that I should give up my passion and career because having children and passing on my talents was more important than developing or using them myself. And if I have a daughter with the same gifts, does that mean that she too is not allowed to use them, but instead she too must only seek to pass them on to the next generation?

How does that make any sense? How can people feel it is okay for to say these kinds of things to me? I wish that this only happened when people were drunk but sadly I hear this kind of thing all the time.

When in the real world, I do not tell people how much I dislike children, because even though they feel entitled to have an enjoyable put-down of me and my choice not to have kids, should I whisper an inkling of disillusionment with having little darlings like their own precious snowflakes, it''s like I''ve just spat in their face and then I really hear it.

And by ''whisper'' I mean things like ''I really don''t have a maternal instinct'' and ''I don''t particularly like children'' and ''I can''t see myself having kids.'' The SHOCK and HORROR! I really should stop using such inflammatory language.

That concludes my vent. Sometimes the hypocrisy just gets too much and it feels like I''m going to explode.

I''d love to hear people''s opinions on this matter.

As a woman who did not have children (not entirely by choice, but certainly by circumstance), I feel your frustration and anger. I even had someone ask me after my wedding (in 2007) at the age of 48, "are you going to try to have kids?" Um, no. My name is not Nancy Grace.

And furthermore, I have indeed been villified for suggesting that someone''s children could be quieter, or better behaved, or (God forbid) not even present. Apparently I am Satan himself. And just as apparently, those parents should not have been parents. The out-of-control children problem is so prevelant here, that occasionally there is a letter to the editor in the local paper addressing the issue. (Only once has one of those letters been mine!

)

I''ve got your back on this one.

 

[galeteia]

Nytemist, that sound you just heard was my head exploding in a fury of "AMEN!"

The ones that really boil my blood are ''how sad that your selfish needs would come before family'' and ''then sex has no special meaning for you if you''re not trying to get pregnant''

I do not appreciate people implying that I am somehow a selfish, self-absorbed brat for not having children that I do not want. It''s not like I''d LIKE kids I just don''t want to give up my daily facials and giant bling

or that I think they''d be a great accessory to bring to my OC housewives tea parties but I don''t want to deal with the baby weight and stretch marks??!

WTH? I would be a terrible parent, assuming I''d survive the pregnancy, is it selfish of me not to want to raise an emotionally scarred child or leave my husband a widower to raise the child that killed me?

And I''m sorry, but the act of procreating does not automatically = specially fufilling intimacy. I imagine the two do go together in couples who already have a fufilling and healthy sex life, but I''m fairly certain children have been conceived during encounters that were not blissful for all parties.

I heartily thank all the pro-kids people who have responded with compassion and non-judgement, and all the fellow sufferers who empathize, as feeling like you are the only sane person in the nuthouse (of rude people) is really wearisome, and not many people sympathize in the ''real world''.

Thank goodness for the internet of many opinions to let us know we aren''t alone ...

 

[diamondfan]

Frankly I think it is more enlightened and UNselfish to not have kids when you cannot care for them or do not want to have them.

And that sex should be just about babies is HOGWASH.

 

[divergrrl]

I think some people are just stupid & say dumb things because they confuse their a$$ with their brain.

But other than that, I think when some people (myself for one) hear the phrase "I don''t ever want children" they immediately think about what you''ll be missing because we love being parents & thank the stars every day that we have these little monkeys running around. I can''t look at my kids without having my heart swell with the best love I''ve ever felt. And I really really really love, adore, cherish my dh, and that love pales in comparison. (and I feel like I''m blessed with an awesome marriage)

People like me just don''t want anyone to miss out on that if they can help it. It rocks over anything else I''ve ever done & I''ve lived a pretty full & rewarding life.

But, my brother always tells me he doesn''t want kids. I never give him any guff. We had a crap upbringing and I didn''t want kids either until dh came along. So I understand the not wanting kids thing. I always liked kids, kids have always liked me...but I never felt maternal towards other people''s kids.

But truly, when I hear someone say (especially if they say it vehemently) that they don''t want/like children, it makes me sad. I really can''t articulate why. I don''t judge those individuals, or think ill of them. I guess, I just feel so lucky/happy/ to be a parent, but I would have never known it unless I actually had them that I wish everyone got a chance to feel this way.

But if it makes you feel better, someone just told me today that only 30% of households actually have children in them. I have no idea if that is true or hogwash, but if it is true, then folks like me with 2.5 kids, a volvo, and picket fence are the oddities. (ok, to be fair, I dont have a picket fence, a volvo, nor half a child...unless you count my dog, but she weighs more than both my kids together, but that wouldn''t make sense or sound good....LOL)


At the risk of getting REALLY sappy, I''ll shut up now. But I don''t think one needs a mate/child/whatever to be complete or happy. Just because I''m happy to be a parent does not mean someone else will be. My version of heaven is probably someone else''s version of hell. Hard for me to imagine, but that''s why we are all individuals...."snowflakes" as Galateia put it.

 

[nytemist]

Galateia- I am 200% with you on this issue. I''m glad I''m not alone in this.

I know I will keep hearing remarks from others. Only thing is my ability to be civil when I answer will wane.

I do like infants. I will babysit a room of newborns, maybe up to about 6-7- months. After that I''m done. Don''t try to tell me ''it''s different when they''re your own.'' Yes, I know that. I can give them back! Don''t tell me I''m denying myself of the greatest experience on earth. Maybe to you. My idea of greatest experience may be getting to travel somewhere I really want to go, or working on the wedding dress for a friend of mine. Any number of things.

Diver, I find it interesting when people get sad when others say they don''t want kids. I''ve had someone tell me that they felt sad for me. I had to ask why and like you, they couldn''t really explain it in words.
I do appreciate the fact that you understand that it isn''t for everyone. Many have told me they don''t want me to ''miss out'' like you say. But at least you are nnot trying to force it down someone''s throat that they have to experience it, or tell me ''you aren''t complete as a woman unless you have children'' (another favorite line)

I think it''s just like everything else in your biological makeup. Some people just know, and know very early, that there is no desire to parent. People are very passioanate about this topic, but in the end, it''s that person''s choice. What makes it bad is the number of people with negative respect for boundaries and push their opinion on you.

 

[tberube]

Don't I know it, on this issue. Right now I know 5 people who are pregnant, and all due within a month of my wedding. I've been told more than once that 2008 is "the year of the baby" with complete disregard for the fact that this is also the year of my long-awaited wedding.

Having to be the only one in the room who is not only not pregnant, but also not intending to have children, is very difficult. All of a sudden swearing and drinking beer are mortal sins, even though this time last year, pregnant woman #4 was throwing up in my bathroom after her seventh dirty martini. "No, I have no plans to have children" gets such a terribly uncomfortable blank stare that it would almost be funny, if it wasn't so outrageously rude.

What all these baby people don't seem to understand is that NOT EVERYONE thinks like them, or finds the same life choices to be good for themselves. Some people enjoy climbing the career ladder, and relaxing on weekends, taking vacations alone with their S.O., having pets, and saving money for their retirement rather than someone else's college education. Why is that so selfish, horrible, heartless? Maybe it's more selfish to bring more people into this world that is overpopulated, corrupted and polluted. But it's never seen that way, because the majority of opinions fall on the side of having babies.

but it's okay, eventually those women will all be calling me up, like my friend with two small, loud kids, and telling me how jealous they are that I don't have to clean up puke and spaghetti-O's off my ceiling or spend all their TV watching time with Caillou (or whatever it is) blaring on the screen. And I'll no longer be getting those self-righteous looks every time I mention that my choices in life don't reflect theirs.

 

[tberube]

Date: 3/10/2008 11:22:02 AM
Author: curlygirl
Galateia, you've gotten so many well thought out, eloquent responses here. I hope I can do the same!


I have a child and another one on the way. I always 'knew' I wanted to be a mother--I'm not sure why, I don't know why I thought I would be good at it--but it's always been something that I wanted. Do I think it's great? Yes. But is it also hard as hell? YES!!! Somedays I just want to be home alone and think about my own poops, meals, naps, etc! But that is no longer my reality and I'm ok with it because it is rewarding to me.


On the flip side is the person who is closest to me in the whole world--my older sister. We share the same DNA, grew up in the same household, etc. yet we are completely different. She does not want children EVER. She loves her niece but in small doses. She watches me with a strange awestruck/disgusted look on her face as I change diapers, clean up snot and feed pureed crap to my daughter. And she has no problems saying she could never do it. She has admitted that she likes her life the way it is and she is way too selfish to bring a child into it. She doesn't dislike children really. She just doesn't want her own and is fine with that decision.


To me, it takes a lot of courage and maturity to admit that. Not everyone is cut out to have children and some people do it for the wrong reasons--mostly that they are pressured by friends, family, society. I know in my own circle of friends, there are some girls who had babies because it's what everyone else is doing. They simply want to keep up with the Joneses. It's like babies are the hot new accessory and everyone should have one just because it's the 'in' thing. Others have babies because they think it will help resurrect a marriage that is in trouble. To me, these are the absolute WRONG reasons.


So what I'm saying is, don't listen to what everyone else says. You know who you are deep down inside and the people who say rude things are simply that--RUDE. I applaud you for making an adult, rational, well thought-out, personal decision and sticking by it. Don't let anyone get you down. Your life is your own and you should do whatever you want without being judged.

While I think curlygirl's response is smart, well-thought-out and very helpful, I think that the very thought I highlighted in her quote is a big part of the root of this issue: that it's somehow acceptable to be considered selfish because you don't want to raise children. It's not selfish. It's a life choice. How can it be selfish not to want the children you already currently don't have? (wouldn't it be worse to not want the children you DO have?) Selfishness implies hurting someone. But who is it hurting? On the contrary, I think the choice is intelligent and mature. To know yourself enough to know that you are not the type of person who wants that in their life is very insightful. So many people should not and do not want children, but have them anyway because it's the acceptable thing to do once you're a certain age and in a committed relationship...but then spend their children's whole lives resenting them and wishing for a moment of peace and quiet. Both my parents were a stellar example of this...and although I'm grateful for my life, my parents would have been much SMARTER (notice I didn't say "more selfish") had they come to terms with the fact that they just weren't the baby type.

Okay, I'll step off my soapbox now. Nothing against your response, curlygirl - in fact I'm glad you said what you said, because I think you're on to something.

 

[tberube]

Date: 3/12/2008 2:36:27 AM
Author: divergrrl
I think some people are just stupid & say dumb things because they confuse their a$$ with their brain.

BBWWAAAAAAAAHAAAHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!

that is a very good statement.

but I don't know why people not wanting children could make you feel sad? I mean, if I had a child right now, I'd be very sad. Heh. I'm actually happy, fulfilled, lucky, satisfied, etc. etc. NOT to have any children. Why change how good it feels to be alive, by doing one thing that I DON'T want to do, just to satisfy the rude questions or amend the possiblility of "missing out" on something?

Such thinking is strange to me.

 

[icekid]

Date: 4/22/2008 12:37:03 PM
Author: tberube

While I think curlygirl''s response is smart, well-thought-out and very helpful, I think that the very thought I highlighted in her quote is a big part of the root of this issue: that it''s somehow acceptable to be considered selfish because you don''t want to raise children. It''s not selfish. It''s a life choice. How can it be selfish not to want the children you already currently don''t have? (wouldn''t it be worse to not want the children you DO have?) Selfishness implies hurting someone. But who is it hurting? On the contrary, I think the choice is intelligent and mature. To know yourself enough to know that you are not the type of person who wants that in their life is very insightful. So many people should not and do not want children, but have them anyway because it''s the acceptable thing to do once you''re a certain age and in a committed relationship...but then spend their children''s whole lives resenting them and wishing for a moment of peace and quiet. Both my parents were a stellar example of this...and although I''m grateful for my life, my parents would have been much SMARTER (notice I didn''t say ''more selfish'') had they come to terms with the fact that they just weren''t the baby type.

Okay, I''ll step off my soapbox now. Nothing against your response, curlygirl - in fact I''m glad you said what you said, because I think you''re on to something.

I agree with you that choosing not to have children is necessarily a selfish decision. But selfish does not mean that you would be hurting someone else with your decision. Selfish means that you are mostly concerned with yourself. Thus, I would say that not having children ALLOWS you to be more selfish. I know I spend more time thinking about me, me, me than the fine ladies on the preggo thread. Is that to say that all childless folks do that? Nope! But it certainly allows you that option.

Hubby and I will probably have children, but not for certain. I really do enjoy kids. However, I''m heading into a demanding career that won''t permit me to be up all night with a fussy baby because it would put the lives of my patients at risk. Some of the reasons that we are considering not having children are admittedly selfish. Not all people are meant to be parents. I think I would be a good parent and that I would enjoy it for the most part. So, for me, most of our reasons for not having children ARE somewhat selfish. Things that allow me to spend more time thinking about me and less time thinking about needy kid. But that still doesn''t make it a bad decision.

 

[surfgirl]

"Why are people so nasty about not having children?"

My theory is because it challenges them at their very core. Many people I know had kids "just because"...Because it''s what you''re "supposed to do" after you get married. And quite a few of those people aren''t exactly thrilled about parenting...I suspect they''re jealous, in a weird way. If you take it from that perspective, it wont bother you so much.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

On my best friends and her husband are not having children and one of the responses I hear most often when they explain they are not having children is "Oh, don''t worry, you are still newlyweds! You''ll change your mind!"

This drives my friend crazy. They clearly made this decision LONG before getting married because let''s face it, it''s not easy to find somebody who wants to settle down, get married and not have kids. I''m not saying that to be critical, it''s just that most people do want kids, so if you know from very early on (she did) that you don''t want kids, it can make the dating process very difficult. It''s not an EASY decision. For those who enter a marriage under the understanding that there will be no children, it''s sort of a dealbreaker if one decides he/she wants kids after all. It''s not something you "grow" out of!

I struggle with the "kids" decision all the time--I''m not itching to be a mom, my decision to have them or not have them is based more on "will I regret it if I don''t have them" than anything else. Not exactly the most lovey-dovey way to decide to have kids, but I can''t help it. For now I just keep putting the decision off.

 

[curlygirl]

Oops, I was in the wrong thread! Carry on, great discussion here!!

 

[divergrrl]

I don''t think its selfish to NOT want to have children. I think everyone has to do what feels right to them.

Truly, if you are following your heart (and not outside peer/parent pressure, whether it is to have children or not have them) then you really can''t go wrong. I did not have kids because it was "the next thing you are supposed to do"...my children were the result of much introspection, soul-searching, and to hell with what anyone else thought.

For those of you who are childless, revel in your spontaneous lives, your lazy Sundays, and your toy free living rooms. Seriously.

Every parent out there will tell you how great parenthood is (including me) but you don''t have to be one. I''ve got plenty of childless couple friends & they lead pretty interesting lives.

Just do your own thing & if anyone is rude enough to bug you about why you aren''t having children, look them straight in the eye & say "That is absolutely NONE of your business" and then change the subject.

fwiw, I was on the fence on having a 2nd...everyone started getting on me (my age) to try for #2, hurry hurry...you MUST have 2, only children are satan''s spawn, etc....p!ssed me off. I found myself explaining my reasons for only wanting 1 child....I got the "tsk tsk" treatment pretty fierce. Even my dh begged for a 2nd. I got SOOOOOOOOO sick of defending myself. Truly annoying. When a few people ask how many *more* we want & I say we''re done..I get the "oh no you aren''t" business & then if they push (oh and they do) I let them know my tubes are tied. I get so many "why did you do that?" remarks & lectures on why I shouldn''t have done that. (I''m a 37 year old woman with a history of recurrent miscarriages & fibroid tumors...trust me, I''m done.....have you seen college costs btw? oh yeah, I''m done....)

So just know...you aren''t alone.

If you are single, people will bug you till you are dating.

If you are dating, people want to know when you are getting married.

If you are engaged....why haven''t you set a date?

When you are married, its when are you having kids?

When you have a kid, its when are you having another?

When you have another, (especially if you have 2 of the same gender) they ask you when are you going to try for a.....boy...girl....alien spacecreature...

When you have baby its "are you breastfeeding?"

when you have a toddler its "are they pottytrained yet"

and I could go on and on and on....

So the nosy, rude folks just suck all around for all of us...childless or not.

Cheers.......

And someone go out afterwork and have a martini for me in a pair of fabu shoes...ok?

 

[cara]

These people are so rude because you are rejecting their values and decisions by your *choice* not to have kids, and they aren''t grown up enough to deal with it in a mature fashion. Of course their comments are way over the acceptable line, and it sounds like you know that.

Reminds me of my aunt who was horrified at her daughter-in-law''s values and how DIL was raising her grandson. She was appalled that 1) grandson was not to be vaccinated and 2) grandson was ONLY to be fed organic food (and organic food is sooo EXPENSIVE).

Now no vaccines is risky and IMO very selfish (as in the US one is relying on other vaccinated people to keep disease from spreading), but I was perplexed as to why feeding her grandson expensive, organic food was so offensive to her.

Then I realized that this aunt has 7 kids and had spent her childraising years scrimping and saving and stretching her family budget to feed and clothe and raise her large family. To feed her grandson needlessly expensive items (as she saw no added value to organic food) was a rejection of HER values and skills accumulated through a lifetime of frugality. To say that something else besides cost might be important to prioritize my aunt saw as a rejection of her value system. Needless to say, this differences of opinion did not lead to the best MIL/DIL relationship

.

There are also these people out there (that I am now encountering) that are honestly shocked by how rewarding they find parenting, and their campaigning of others to become parents is more well-intentioned. (Not that your rude drunken friends are in this category.) But one of my friends is a new mom and she is just unabashedly promoting parenthood to childless couples as she had NO IDEA that she would find it this wonderful and fulfilling. She''s also one of those annoying ones that talks mostly about her kid these days, but at least thus far I find it kind of endearing. She means well, and is smitten with her new son and wants to spread the joy. (Talk to me in another year and we''ll see if I am as forgiving, or if her enthusiasm has been dampened or at least tempered.)

 

[miraclesrule]

This is how I have learned to respond to judgmental people...
"What if judgment day is really all of us being judged on how judgmental we are?

 

[iheartscience]

There are a lot of great responses in this thread! I''m not married yet, but I''m pretty sure I don''t want kids. When I tell people this, it blows their mind. I''ve gotten seriously shocked, almost angry reactions from people. A guy my fiance is friends with was just basically personally offended when I said that I didn''t want kids. It''s just insane.

Once I get married, I know it will get a lot worse. I''m just going to call people out on their rudeness and tell them it''s none of their business. I might start judging them about their choice to have children, just to throw it back in their face. I don''t have much of a problem with confrontation, so I think most people will shut up pretty quickly once I get a little argumentative and short with them.

I also think I''m pretty lucky because my mom is great about it-it''s pretty obvious I''m not the mothering type, and she never tries to talk me out of not wanting kids. I know some people whose parents are just relentless about them having kids. I am a little worried that my FMIL is going to make a stink about us not particularly wanting kids, though. My fiance is an only child, so she won''t have any grandchildren if we don''t have them, but that''s not my problem.

I also never say never, because what happens if I turn 35 and am desperate for a kid? Who knows, it could happen. I''m 26 now, so I''ve got plenty of time if I do change my mind.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 3/11/2008 7:14:46 PM
Author: HollyS

Date: 3/8/2008 10:24:21 PM
Author:Galateia
Warning: Vent Ahead.

To avoid derailing Sha''s thread further, I thought I would start a new thread. My question is, why do people take it upon themselves to be so rude and inappropriate when they learn one is not having children?

It would never occur to me to deride a person''s choice to have children or attempt to convince them not to have them.

What gives?

This thread was prompted by my experiences last night at a colleague''s farewell party, where I was told that anything I could experience with my partner is pathetic and soulless compared to ''making love when you are making a baby'' and that if I am not having children, I do not have the right to use the word ''mate'' when referring to my FI, since that word no longer has any relevant meaning in my case.

This was from two separate people, both of whom were drunk and would be otherwise polite as we are on good terms, but I was shocked and hurt that people think that they have the right to say these outrageous things to me, drunk or not.

The second person, who asserted I have no right to refer to my choice of FF as ''choosing my mate'', told me that he was essentially offended that a woman as intelligent/accomplished/etc as me was not passing on my genes, as if I somehow owed humanity my offspring, devil take what I might want to do with my intelligence, accomplishments, and ambitions.

I cannot conceive of how my choice to have kids or not gives anyone the right to become offended. I might be mixing up my grammar there a little, but hot damn, I''m peeved.

Do people who have children somehow feel that I am casting aspersions on their choice by choosing not to have them? Someone was actually arguing with me that I should give up my passion and career because having children and passing on my talents was more important than developing or using them myself. And if I have a daughter with the same gifts, does that mean that she too is not allowed to use them, but instead she too must only seek to pass them on to the next generation?

How does that make any sense? How can people feel it is okay for to say these kinds of things to me? I wish that this only happened when people were drunk but sadly I hear this kind of thing all the time.

When in the real world, I do not tell people how much I dislike children, because even though they feel entitled to have an enjoyable put-down of me and my choice not to have kids, should I whisper an inkling of disillusionment with having little darlings like their own precious snowflakes, it''s like I''ve just spat in their face and then I really hear it.

And by ''whisper'' I mean things like ''I really don''t have a maternal instinct'' and ''I don''t particularly like children'' and ''I can''t see myself having kids.'' The SHOCK and HORROR! I really should stop using such inflammatory language.

That concludes my vent. Sometimes the hypocrisy just gets too much and it feels like I''m going to explode.

I''d love to hear people''s opinions on this matter.

As a woman who did not have children (not entirely by choice, but certainly by circumstance), I feel your frustration and anger. I even had someone ask me after my wedding (in 2007) at the age of 48, ''are you going to try to have kids?'' Um, no. My name is not Nancy Grace.

And furthermore, I have indeed been villified for suggesting that someone''s children could be quieter, or better behaved, or (God forbid) not even present. Apparently I am Satan himself. And just as apparently, those parents should not have been parents. The out-of-control children problem is so prevelant here, that occasionally there is a letter to the editor in the local paper addressing the issue. (Only once has one of those letters been mine!

)

I''ve got your back on this one.

Yeah, at 45 and childless, I''ve gotten plenty of it too. I''d step off the politeness wagon, and when they say such things, just say that given the quality of most of the kids you see these days, you''ve decided that while reproduction is a sign of life, it is not necessarily a sign of intelligent life. Then smile sweetly.

 

[deegee]

My husband and I have been married for 13 years and we still get asked when we are going to start a family. Over the years, I have heard remarks like "I feel so sad for you," "you will regret it later," and my favorite, "your husband would be such a great father - why are you robbing him of the chance to be a dad?" And then I am told how great it is to be a parent and I don''t know what I''m missing, etc. Lately I have responded "I''m too old to have kids." That doesn''t work either because whoever I''m talking to relates a story about someone they know who is about my age who just had a baby. I give up!

 

[diamondfan]

Having kids is wonderful if you want to. And having them just to appease people is silly, it is so tough that if you do not want to do it, why do it?

People might think they are just asking a routine thing, but how rude can people get? Having kids is certainly not for everyone.

They are not living your life. Your choices are your own to make and you should not have to justify them. Sadly, that is not the way a lot people see it.

 

[LaraOnline]

Kids are such a huge amount of work, and such an incredible life style adjustment, it can even be quite isolating and f*rout is it domesticated. Whatever rocks your boat. It''s your biz. Tell them (with the possible exception of your mum) to butt right out.