We''re ALL winners!!

[yssie]

My little cousin (7) was in a race at school. He came in fourth apparently.


I said "congratulations, you must be so proud of yourself for placing so high!" He said that no, everyone ran hard, so everyone was a winner! They also awarded all the kids in his class the *same* ribbon

Is this commonplace? When did it become 'insensitive' and 'unpolitic' to specially award a child for a job especially well done, in any pursuit? Do kids truly believe 'everyone who participates is a winner!' - and how is perpetuating this fallacy going to help them when real life kicks in a few years down the line?

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

LOL! Yssies, spoken like a true overachiever!

I think I know which of my students you were in university.

I think on things as inconsequential as a 4th grade race it is great to not weed out the wheat from the chaff just yet. As we know, all too soon every little flaw and inferiourity will be pointed out daily by peers and 6th grade librarians.

 

[Hera]

It might be a little young but I think there has to be a balance between gaining self esteem by being a winner and the fact that children have much to gain from being defeated. Part of sports is learning to work hard,learning how to handle failure, and learning the life lessons that someone will lose and someone will win.

 

[yssie]

...I don't have kids, so I'm probably overreacting, it just seems so over-the-top!


Winning and losing is often enough black and white, and it's something we instinctively pick up as toddlers - and while you can be gracious in victory (and share the bounty) there's still always a clear winner, second, third... in something as objective as a competition. For an educational institution to have so thoroughly stamped out that concept - for whatever reason, which I don't understand at all - that a primary-school aged kid truly doesn't care is absolutely mind-boggling


Though, of course, he could've just been parroting what his teachers told him whilst fully knowing where he placed - who knows

Date: 6/29/2010 1:43:22 AM
Author: dreamer_d
LOL! Yssies, spoken like a true overachiever!

I think I know which of my students you were in university.

Haha aren't you a sweet one

 

[steph72276]

Yssie, we''re facing this situation right now and trying to figure out the best route for our son. He is 5 and for the past few years, he has done sports in our church league where score is not kept. I think when they''re this young, it is a good way to introduce rules, learn about the game, and generally start liking the sport while getting encouragement without worrying about winning or losing. That being said, I think this upcoming year when he enters kindergarten, we are going to a city league where score will be kept. I think it is an important lesson to learn how to win and lose gracefully. We already do this at home with board games and card games....we don''t "let" him win, but I think sports will be a great way to teach him about winning and losing. Like heraanderson said, there is a fine line between teaching them self esteem and teaching them how to lose....

 

[elrohwen]

I don''t have a problem with it for young kids - I agree with some of the others in this thread that it''s a good way to learn rules and how to play without having to learn to be a good winner or loser at the same time.

Also, something no one else has mentioned, is that it keeps the parents from being crazy sports parents too early. There are many parents who become obsessed with their kids winning or losing and push very hard - I think winner-less sports are as much about those parents as they are about the kids. If it keeps those types of parents from pushing their kids hard until they''re a little older, I''m all for it.

 

[steph72276]

Date: 6/29/2010 8:04:14 AM
Author: elrohwen
I don''t have a problem with it for young kids - I agree with some of the others in this thread that it''s a good way to learn rules and how to play without having to learn to be a good winner or loser at the same time.


Also, something no one else has mentioned, is that it keeps the parents from being crazy sports parents too early. There are many parents who become obsessed with their kids winning or losing and push very hard - I think winner-less sports are as much about those parents as they are about the kids. If it keeps those types of parents from pushing their kids hard until they''re a little older, I''m all for it.

Oh, I totally agree about the parents. It was so nice to have the parents cheer on ALL the kids, even the other team! Not looking forward to dealing with crazy parents!

 

[Octavia]

I agree that young children don''t need to be competitive, it''s better for them to develop good social skills at that age. But eventually it gets ridiculous -- I just read a NYT article a couple days ago about schools having 5, 10, 20 "valedictorians" because they can''t/don''t want to distinguish among them. I think it''s awesome that there are so many kids who did well during their high school careers, but not everyone can be number one. And I''ll bet that numbers 2-10 are still going to do pretty darn well for themselves if they want to, regardless of whether they give a speech at graduation or not.

 

[Girlrocks]

I can see where the school is coming from; my kindergartener is painfully shy so this would be a good idea for a child like her. However, I think they should have differentiated between the first 3 or 4 kids that finished the race and everyone else...a different ribbon, maybe a little something extra in addition to the ribbon.

On the other hand, I am also all for HEALTHY competition among children/peers. It is good for children to learn at an early age about being competative without going overboard; it encourages children to strive to exceed. If every child gets the same reward regardless of time, effort, preparedness, initiative, etc. then they will never learn that things aren''t handed to you on a silver platter just for "being".

 

[ForteKitty]

Yssie- Have you heard of those parents who complain to the school board because their kids weren't good enough to make Varsity? Or ones who go to teachers, demanding their kids be given a higher grade because the C- "hurt their feelings"? I remember reading an article where the writer went off on how kids live in a bubble these days, and how that my-kid-is-perfect mentality is raising intolerable, entitled brats who can't function in a workplace setting as adults.

I see that happening to my middle school age cousins, and it's really frustrating. I just wanna yell, "you want that A? earn it!" All they do is complain about how unfair their teachers are. Really.. every single one of your 6 teachers is unfair and assign too much homework? I dont think so!

 

[Haven]

Date: 6/29/2010 10:46:20 AM
Author: ForteKitty
Yssie- Have you heard of those parents who complain to the school board because their kids weren't good enough to make Varsity? Or ones who go to teachers, demanding their kids be given a higher grade because the C- 'hurt their feelings'? I remember reading an article where the writer went off on how kids live in a bubble these days, and how that my-kid-is-perfect mentality is raising intolerable, entitled brats who can't function in a workplace setting as adults.

I see that happening to my middle school age cousins, and it's really frustrating. I just wanna yell, 'you want that A? earn it!' All they do is complain about how unfair their teachers are. Really.. every single one of your 6 teachers is unfair and assign too much homework? I don't think so!

This is so true! When I taught high school it was really shocking to see the amount of parents and students who believed that everyone was entitled to the A, or the spot on the team, or the lead role in the play. I don't have it anymore but we floated an article around about this very issue, and it discussed how this "everyone is special, yet everyone is a winner, too" mentality leads to lower ability and performance in the upper grades, and higher expectations for rewards.

I have no idea when kids are the "right" age to start awarding real trophies or winners, but doing this all their lives isn't good for anyone. (Wasn't there a recent thread on PS that discussed how recent college grads are not at all prepared to work in the real world and meet their employers' demands after college? Similar issue, there.)

I agree that with very little kids it's nice when everyone's a winner. I love going to my five-year-old cousin's bunchy ball . . . ahem, I mean soccer . . . games.

They're hilarious and fun, and I think we're lucky that the kids even know that they should be kicking the ball in only one direction. They haven't figured out positions or strategy, yet, so I'm all about no winners, there. However, once they get a little bit older and they have the capacity to start developing real skills (or not) then I think it's important to communicate whether they're developing those skills, and what they can do to improve. Otherwise, they'll be playing bunchy ball their entire lives.

 

[Haven]

This discussion reminds me of one of my favorite articles. I start out every college class reading this article, and we always have incredible discussions about it.

In Praise of the F Word

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/29/2010 8:04:14 AM
Author: elrohwen
I don''t have a problem with it for young kids - I agree with some of the others in this thread that it''s a good way to learn rules and how to play without having to learn to be a good winner or loser at the same time.

Also, something no one else has mentioned, is that it keeps the parents from being crazy sports parents too early. There are many parents who become obsessed with their kids winning or losing and push very hard - I think winner-less sports are as much about those parents as they are about the kids. If it keeps those types of parents from pushing their kids hard until they''re a little older, I''m all for it.

Um, not necessarily. My friend''s kids are in a no score soccer league. Many, many parents keep score in the heads (and apparently so do some of the kids) and actually do go nuts in the stands - and I''m not just talking about cheering. I''ve been told that when the game is over, many of the kids ask their parents of their team won or lost.

Anyway, don''t get me started on this no scoring business.

 

[Guilty Pleasure]

The majority of the world''s cultures are collectivistic rather than individualistic, meaning that teamwork is valued over being first place. Yes it is true that Americans value personal achievement, but as far as being a productive worker, teaching teamwork and group effort is much more applicable in today''s work force.

Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?

In terms of a race with a hundred people... the goal of this race is ultimately to get 7 year olds moving, to encourage a joy for running and physical fitness. I don''t know about you, but when I was growing up, I already knew who the fastest boy and the fastest girl in the class were. They won first place every year, and that was fine by me. In a race of a hundred, I would know without a doubt that I am not going to win first place. oh well! Any smart kid knows his chances of winning, so if the ultimate goal is to encourage all 100 kids to challenge THEMSELVES and to do their best and enjoy the race, then I can see where a ribbon for everyone who tried is in line with those goals, rather than one ribbon for first place.

Can everyone win a gold medal in the olympics? of course not. But determining the BEST is not the point of 7 year old fun runs or English class. I am VERY competitive. I have to put my "happy face" on when I play games, because while it may be just for fun on the outside, you better believe I am psychotic about winning on the inside. So when I speak against competition in the classroom, it''s not because I care about self-esteem or hurting anyone''s feelings. It''s because I care about kids and allowing as many of them as possible to meet my high expectations and to achieve success. If I set up my class so that only one child is allowed to win or only 5 can earn an A, then I am losing 20 other children who know that an A is not in their grasp. The key is high expectations for all, not giving out grades or ribbons for self-esteem.

 

[Maria D]

Isn''t it interesting that even though place-finishes weren''t recognized or awarded in the "race," yssie''s cousin still knew he came in 4th? And even if no score is kept for youth soccer, the kids still want to know who won? We can pretend that it''s all about effort and not performance, but for the kids it''s a competition! Why even call it a race? Why not say the goal is to get from point A to B and everyone who achieves that goal gets a ribbon. My guess is because kids run around without purpose all day anyway and wouldn''t be that interested. Even at 7, some WANT to compete.

Years ago, at a soccer game for age 7 girls, a set of parents approached the coach and asked if he could be sure to put their kid on offense for the rest of the game. It was the last game of the season and they had promised her $10 if she scored a goal. She hadn''t scored one all season so this was her last chance. I couldn''t believe it! Meanwhile, my daughter was collecting seagull feathers on the field -- during the game. Um, I guess I should have offered her money to focus on the ball, LOL.

For academics, we''re supposed to have three ratings: performance, effort and conduct. While it makes sense to me that a student could earn a C grade along with excellent for effort and conduct, the kids and their parents don''t always agree. It seems they want all three rolled into the grade itself. But I tried my hardest! He''s a good kid! Is that what an A is supposed to represent then, effort and conduct? Yeah, well your "best" still resulted in making enough errors on quizzes and tests that a C is warranted. Here''s an idea -- maybe instead of enrolling in AP or Honors level, you might choose regular college-prep. That shows you how antiquated my thinking is. The push is for schools to get rid of "levels" and put all abilities together in one classroom. That way, everyone''s self-esteem is intact and no worries -- teacher will just "differentiate instruction" so that all students will learn to their ability level. Sounds good in theory but I''ve yet to see it work. *sigh*

 

[Haven]

I was hoping you''d chime in with your thoughts on this, Maria D. I always love to read your ideas on these matters.

 

[janinegirly]

I personally think it's a bit much to steralize sport/competition to the point there is no score. I can maybe understand it for the youngest set and maybe I'll feel differently once my DD is older, but like TGAL pointed out taking the score away won't necessarily stop the personalities (overbearing parents,etc).
I think children need to learn lessons from life that will help them have the tools necessary for the future. This means knowing there are winners and losers and healthy competition is part of that. The next step is to take grades out of school and in fact already exists at some colleges. I agree too much competitiion can breed negative feeling, BUT at the same time taking away any form of measurement will breed complacency and a sense of entitlement without effort. JMHO.

 

[AmberWaves]

Totally agree with TGal. My husband coaches basketball, volleyball, football and track for boys and girls k-8 in Los Angeles. Parents keep score, kids want to know their score, and also are JUST as competitive as kids who get ribbons according to placement (1st, 2nd, 3rd). In fact, the parents of the non-score keepers tend to be a little more insistent on how well their child played and how poorly other children were playing, kind of like they want everyone to know that despite the fact that no official records were kept- THEIR kid was a winner, and THAT kid over there wasn''t.

Sometimes I wonder why those parents put their kids in sports as young children, not questioning their motives, exactly, but I was forced into soccer as a young child. Why? Because my same-aged cousins were also playing. They were the stars and I was the asthmatic with my inhaler tucked into my waistband and panting as I stood there picking flowers. If I had my choice, I would have said no to soccer!

In my 8 years with my husband, after going to games of every kind, there are the parents who want their kids to be WINNERS (and who end up burning their kids out early on competitive sports more often than not) and the ones who want their kids to have fun, and play with others.

 

[iheartscience]

I started playing soccer in organized leagues at age 4 and they always kept score. I think the trend of not keeping score probably harms kids in the long run. I think it''s healthy to learn early on that you''re not always going to be the best, and that''s okay too. If I ever have kids I''ll try to find them leagues that do keep score. And I''ll also try not to be the obnoxious parent. That one might be hard for me-I''m crazy competitive!

 

[Mara]

Amber, I also was put into soccer because my cousins were in it. I hated it, was bad at it, got lice from the rest of the team. Mom pulled me out after one season. It def did nothing for my self esteem either since I was crap at it and all the kids had been in soccer since they were toddlers basically and I was the odd one out.

I think that no scoring is great for when the kids are little and should just learn to socialize, get along well with others, be on a ''team'' etc... but at some point they do need to realize you need to work for what you get and if you want something better, work for it. And how to win and lose gracefully.

Many of these no scored, deserves an A kids are just starting to enter the workforce and it will be interesting to see how they adapt...OR rather what will probably happen is managers will need to adapt. There are too many of them, they are next gen.

 

[fieryred33143]

I don''t know how I feel about it.

On one hand I like the idea of competition. It gives motivation and teaches how to handle a loss.

On the other hand, if it isn''t about winning/losing/pressure then I''m sure more kids would be willing to at least try it out. Lord knows our society needs more kids being active.

My brothers were in little league 15 years ago. There was winning/losing and lots of pressure from the parents. The first game they ''lost'' was apparently due to my brother not doing something (I wasn''t paying attention). The parents were all upset over it. The coach was really supportive and motivated the kids to keep going but my brother was so upset over it that he never went back. He was 5!

 

[TravelingGal]

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM
Author: Guilty Pleasure
The majority of the world''s cultures are collectivistic rather than individualistic, meaning that teamwork is valued over being first place. Yes it is true that Americans value personal achievement, but as far as being a productive worker, teaching teamwork and group effort is much more applicable in today''s work force.

speaking only for what I know about the Korean culture, yes it''s more group oriented than the individual. However, when it comes to sports, I notice that Koreans seem to like individual sports a lot, like tennis and golf, so that no one else is going to muck up your efforts except yourself!

 

[TooPatient]

Date: 6/29/2010 1:00:51 AM
Author:yssie
My little cousin (7) was in a race at school. He came in fourth apparently.


I said ''congratulations, you must be so proud of yourself for placing so high!'' He said that no, everyone ran hard, so everyone was a winner! They also awarded all the kids in his class the *same* ribbon

Is this commonplace? When did it become ''insensitive'' and ''unpolitic'' to specially award a child for a job especially well done, in any pursuit? Do kids truly believe ''everyone who participates is a winner!'' - and how is perpetuating this fallacy going to help them when real life kicks in a few years down the line?

We had races and stuff at school that I can remember. Even the youngest of the kids (preschool) got individual ribbons (all different).

1st place -- 1st place ribbon
2nd place -- 2nd place ribbon
3rd place -- 3rd place ribbon
4th down -- participation ribbons


I helped in preschool classes for a year and was there when their teacher handed out ribbons. Each student got a ribbon saying they were "Best". But each ribbon was different:
"Best at ____" -- very personalized. They were all thrilled. They knew they were the best at their thing and the other kids were the best at their things.


Making sure the kids (especially younger) are happy and feel special is a good way to make them FEEL good (which is a nice thing to do and important) but it has to be balanced somehow so that they learn to push themselves and challenge themselves to do better than last time (not be the best in the class, just improve what they had done before) in order to really grow and succeed in life.
(How boring and mediocre would we all be if we settled for our performance in ______ (music, sports, writing, reading, acting, dancing........)?)



Sorry for the ramble -- I just got out of my pre-calculus class.
My point is that both lessons are important but there needs to be some balance of the 2.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 6/29/2010 12:07:35 PM
Author: TravelingGal

Date: 6/29/2010 8:04:14 AM

Author: elrohwen

I don't have a problem with it for young kids - I agree with some of the others in this thread that it's a good way to learn rules and how to play without having to learn to be a good winner or loser at the same time.


Also, something no one else has mentioned, is that it keeps the parents from being crazy sports parents too early. There are many parents who become obsessed with their kids winning or losing and push very hard - I think winner-less sports are as much about those parents as they are about the kids. If it keeps those types of parents from pushing their kids hard until they're a little older, I'm all for it.

Um, not necessarily. My friend's kids are in a no score soccer league. Many, many parents keep score in the heads (and apparently so do some of the kids) and actually do go nuts in the stands - and I'm not just talking about cheering. I've been told that when the game is over, many of the kids ask their parents of their team won or lost.


Anyway, don't get me started on this no scoring business.

I think it's sad that parents feel the need to push their kids into being competitive at such a young age. I don't know what the cut off is, but I think at some point kids are too young to understand the rules and to have any skills, so why have winners and losers? I don't know what age they should start keeping score - I don't know nearly enough about how kids develop around that age and I don't remember much from my own childhood, though I do remember an early soccer league that didn't keep score, so this type of thing has been happening for decades now. I also remember thinking it was stupid that we all got trophies since I clearly sucked

I hope DH doesn't turn into a crazy sports parent - he's extremely athletic and competitive, but is also humble and a good loser or winner (at least on the field - he rants and raves when he gets home

). I hope his attitude rubs off on our kids.

 

[ForteKitty]

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM
Author: Guilty Pleasure

Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?

These kids expect to get good grades w/o earning them these days. (my cousins do, at least.) I believe in straight scores, no curves. if you make it, you get the A, otherwise, you get whatever you earned. And this is coming from a non-high achiever.

I went to a pretty competitive HS. Back in 1997, our valedictorian''s GPA was 4.5. She started taking all AP classes as soon as it was possible, starting in sophomore year. The salutatorian''s GPA was 4.45. Think the third in class was a 4.4. I had a 3.5 GPA and i was on the bottom half of the class!! yea... embarassing!!

 

[Steel]

The world has gone PC mad.

PC is the new black.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 6/29/2010 4:36:48 PM
Author: ForteKitty

Date: 6/29/2010 12:34:23 PM

Author: Guilty Pleasure


Why can''t everyone have an A? I am a teacher, and I would jump for joy if each of my students achieved this success. I understand the problem with parents who want their child to be given an A instead of earning it, so I''m not suggesting that I fall in line with those people. What I am saying is that there does not need to be a bell curve in education. If every student mastered a subject, why should some of them fail?

These kids expect to get good grades w/o earning them these days. (my cousins do, at least.) I believe in straight scores, no curves. if you make it, you get the A, otherwise, you get whatever you earned. And this is coming from a non-high achiever.


I went to a pretty competitive HS. Back in 1997, our valedictorian''s GPA was 4.5. She started taking all AP classes as soon as it was possible, starting in sophomore year. The salutatorian''s GPA was 4.45. Think the third in class was a 4.4. I had a 3.5 GPA and i was on the bottom half of the class!! yea... embarassing!!

It''s funny - I just remembered that my high school didn''t rank us. We had a valedictorian and salutatorian (actually two valedictorians, because there was a tie) but nobody knew their rank. There were only about 60-70 kids per class, so I guess they didn''t want people to get too competitive? I dunno. Though everyone shared test scores and found other ways to be competitive about it.

 

[Hudson_Hawk]

I just heard about a story on the radio (can't remember where this took place exactly). Apparently there's a high school who has 30 valedictorians. Yes, 30 and no not all of them have perfect grade point averages. Apparently the school, in an effort to avoid hurting feelings or possible litigation, chose to make the top 20% "valedictorians."

If we celebrate mediocrity and just give our kids these titles and trophies without them doing the work and earning it, what do they have to strive for? Excellence? But according to society's definition of "excellence," it's everyone on the team or in the top 30%.

 

[ForteKitty]

our class had about 200 graduates... and they ranked all of us by GPA, starting from #1... all the way thru. This list was posted in the main hall

Being #133 or whatever was not fun... but hey i wanted to take fun non-AP classes!

ETA: I just realized i'm in the bottom 1/3 of the class w/ a 3.5 GPA. wtf.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

I guess the point I was making is that I think at that age it is fun for kids to just run like mad and then have a party/celebration and all get ribbons. I don''t really see the point of a "race" for little kids. I would like my son to learn to work hard and do his best no matter what the outcome, because there is pleasure and benefits to hard work. It''s called intrinsic motivation rather than extrinsic and it is much healthier psychologically.

And FWIW, self-esteem doesn''t and shouldn''t come from winning and losing at sports or school or any other performance domain. People who think that giving their kid an A will cause the kid to have high self-esteem are misguided and don''t know anything about self-esteem. In fact that type of approach to "high self-esteem" tends to backfire, resulting in people with unstable self-esteem that is highly contingent on external rewards, which is a very anxiety provoking way to live your life.